Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Anthroposophy and Astrology

Expand Messages
  • dottie zold
    Dear Martha, Elizabeth Vreede is said by Rudolf Steiner to have been the student that understood him better than the others. She was appointed the original
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 4, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Martha,

      Elizabeth Vreede is said by Rudolf Steiner to have
      been the student that understood him better than the
      others. She was appointed the original Vorstand
      member, chosen by Rudolf Steiner, in the Mathematical
      Astronomical Section. I highly recommend the book
      Anthroposophy and Astrology. I think you would very
      much like it.

      I will share something about the working relationship
      of Mercury and Venus and then skip to an earlier
      lecture that speaks to another aspect of the duo as
      morning and evening star.

      Firstly though I want to share this: "By evening star
      is meant, astronomically, that the planet now follows
      the Sun, and therefore rises and sets after it. At the
      time of sunset, it can naturally also be morning star,
      if it is placed just to the west of the sun. It then
      sets before the Sun and is therefore quite invisible
      in the evening sky."

      page 177: " Here the inner planets, with their direct
      relation to the Sun and Earth, begin to play a role.
      For someone will take a different position in their
      family if, as they pass through the Venus sphere, they
      encounter the planet Venus on this side or on the
      other side of the Sun. If Venus is situated so that it
      sends its beam to Earth-that is, if it shines as a
      morning or evening star-then the person will become
      someone who feels very bound up with family. If Venus
      is in conjunction with the Sun, especially in superior
      conjunction (in transition from morning star to
      evening-star) see Letter r7, Year One), then the
      person's progress will be but slightly affected by the
      planet; he or she will not be very much bound up with
      family. (see lecture, Nov. 12, 1922; Goetheanum,
      6:44.)

      Then follows the passage through the Mercury sphere.
      There human beings are connected to the nation to
      which they belong, by that nations' archangel. One
      does not choose here. This has happened much earlier
      with the collaboration of Lucifer, and moreover, a
      choice would no longer be possible, for the
      incarnating soul has already in the Venus sphere been
      connected with a definite human pair- and the family
      usually belongs to a definite nation. A distinction
      must be made between the choice or assignment of the
      nation and then of the family that has occurred
      earlier, and this establishment of a soul connection
      first with the parents in the Venus sphere and then
      with the folk soul in the Mercury sphere. In the
      latter, in which the forces of the folk soul are
      mediated by a people's respective archangel, the
      astronomical position of Mercury plays a role. The
      position of Mercury in relation to the Sun and Earth
      at the time of a person's passage through the Mercury
      sphere determines the extent of their connection to
      the Folk soul.

      Naturally, all these relations are extraordinarily
      complicated and not to be expressed in a simple model.
      One need only recall according to the researches of
      spiritual science the planet Venus is actually within
      the Mercury sphere, and that Mercury is in the Venus
      sphere,to see how here too, the linking of nation and
      family is crossed and blended in a remarkable way. For
      instance, Venus gives the ability for a particular
      language to be spoken one earth; through Mercury, the
      planet of the folk soul, this language is directly
      determined. And Mars bestows speech in general, the
      universal word, which is transformed through the power
      of Venus to the human word. (In Letter 8, Year One,
      brief references was also made to these cosmic
      metamorphoses)"


      page 129:
      " Hermes-Mercury can again teach us arts and sciences
      when we are willing as scientists to follow
      Hermes-Psychopompus into the world of the true
      imaginations that may appear to us at first as a
      nether world. If we are not willing, he becomes Typhon
      or Seth. This was the name the Egyptians given by the
      Egyptians to the evening star Mercury when they looked
      on it as a separate being, not knowing its connection
      with Mercury as the morning star, the god of wisdom.
      The Greeks named him Apollo in this form. To the
      Egyptians he was Horus, the son of Isis and Osiris,
      who was in continual strife with Seth. But both lead
      to union with the Sun, by the inferior or superior
      conjunction. We can in this sense refer to them both
      together as the Archangel Raphael, who stands in the
      west.



      The Life Between Death and Rebirth:

      "



      Year 1 Letter 7
      March 1928

      Concerning the Movements of Venus and Mercury: The
      Easter Festival

      (...) Thus we can also understand that with the
      renewed awakening of consciousness in respect to the
      spirit at the present time and also in the near
      future, a new conception of the universe must arise.
      This new picture of the world must be born out of very
      different soul powers than those that led to the
      Ptolemaic or Copernican systems. It would be a
      mythical belief to suppose that Copernicus with his
      idea of solitary spheres rolling through space had
      found the right idea for all time.

      But it would be a mistake to suppose that a new
      conception of the planetary movements such as that
      given by Rudolf Steiner could be accepted in the same
      way as that of Copernicus. It is precisely because a
      new consciousness must be evoked that the lemniscate
      form of the movements Rudolf Steiner described cannot
      be represented by any abstract scheme. It is
      absolutely necessary that out of the whole range of
      spiritual scientific endeavor, the conditions be
      created for the discovery of a new system. For it is
      not an intellectual explanation of the universe that
      we need but a new connection of the feeling and the
      will of humanity with the cosmos.

      This, however, can only bear fruit through knowledge,
      that is, through coming to recognize the phenomena
      themselves or humankind's knowledge of the phenomena,
      now and in the future. Every representation of the
      appearance of these things, whether in words or in
      diagrams can only be one-sided. In particular,
      two-dimensional drawings can only give on aspect, that
      which one then wants to illuminate. Therefore we have
      to conjure up a more or less complete picture by means
      of a representation of a variety of viewpoints. The
      reader must be able to alter his or her point of view
      every moment. Since e now wish to come to a
      description of the different planetary movements we
      must especially bear this in mind.

      We will first consider merely what the eye can see
      taking place in the heavens,, and its corroboration,
      which we have already stated in the third letter. Now
      we find the two lower planets, Mercury and Venus,m
      appearing alternately as morning and evening stars. We
      may compare them with the Moon, which during the last
      days before new moon is in a sense morning star, and
      after conjunction with the Sun, when it appears as a
      young and waxing Moon, is in a sense an evening star.
      However, the Moon can always withdraw further and
      further from the Sun - it revolves of course around
      Earth and is so to say bound to it and not to the Sun
      as though by a 'stem'. Venus and Mercury can only
      withdraw a very little from the Sun and during the day
      are overpowered by its brilliant light. Given
      favorable conditions Venus can indeed be seen with the
      naked eye even in the middle of the day, and is always
      visible through the telescope.

      (...) Without going in detail now into the very
      complicated question of the "transposition of Venus
      and Mercury", it can be shown here how it is that both
      Ptolemy and Copernicus call the same heavenly body
      "Venus" though giving it a different place in the
      sequence. We must also remember that the Ptolemaic
      system did not actually take the spatial relationships
      into consideration, but rather the temporal
      relationships and the similar rhythms that must arise
      from them. And thus Mercury is found to revolve in its
      epicycle in less time than Venus does, and is
      therefore-from this aspect - the nearest to the
      stationary Earth. Ptolemy was far from considering the
      relative distances of the planets fronm Earth or from
      the Sun. Instead he merely established the order of
      the spheres. And thus it was clear to him that the
      spheres of the Sun (they are supra-solar), and that of
      Venus and Mercury are nearer than the Sun. He says,
      though, that other and more ancient astronomers were
      even doubtful about this, and that from the
      observations of that time, it could not be decisively
      known:

      " Thus a greater amount of belief seems to be due to
      the older astronomers' methods of arrangement, which
      separates the planets that are in opposition from
      those that do not come into opposition, but which
      always remain near the Sun."(Ptolemy's Handbook of
      Astronomy, vol. 2)

      The idea that Mercury must always be the planet
      nearest the earth, and that Venus is next, is
      actually borrowed from a tradition, and this tradition
      is one that originated in the mysteries. For in the
      mysteries it was known that human beings in the life
      after death pass first through the Moon sphere, then
      through that of Mercury, and then through the sphere
      of Venus. But so far as external observation is
      concerned, and the observations and calculations that
      become possible later (those concerning, for example,
      the passages of Mercury and Venus in front of the Sun)
      it has become equally clear that the little
      reddish-colored and scarcely visible Mercury stands
      nearest the Sun, while the brilliantly shining Venus,
      being further from the Sun, stands nearest to Earth.
      Therefore what is presented to us is a non-agreement -
      a confusion of the spheres with their corresponding
      planets. That is as far as we can deal with the
      subject at present.

      (...)

      When, after the superior conjunction, Venus has passed
      the Sun, she appears on the other side of the sky in
      the west as evening star. Then she passes through her
      phases bu in reverse order, come to the greatest
      elongation, greatest brilliancy, and returns to the
      Sun. When she reaches the inferior conjunction, she
      describes a loop. She apparently stands still for a
      short time and then retrogrades for about six weeks,
      traveling from west to east against the Sun, which in
      its annual movement goes from west to east. The
      inferior conjunction takes place about the middle of
      this retrograde movement. Now she becomes the morning
      star again - the star of Lucifer- which was once his
      dwelling place and for which he now longs. To the
      ancients, Venus as the morning star was
      "Lucifer-Phosphorus." But as evening star she was
      "Hesperus" because something quite different rayed out
      from her. Mercury or Hermes, as the morning star - as
      a being- also differed from Mercury as the evening
      star. For the planet as morning star as the radiant
      messenger of the gods who comes on winged feet
      bringing divine knowledge to Earth, while as evening
      star he was the guide who led souls into the
      underworld or - in the modern sense, the guide to true
      imaginations, and the world to, which they belong.
      (Cf. True and False Paths in Spiritual Investigation,
      lecture 10.)

      The actual phases were altogether unknown to the
      ancients. They are, in fact, invisible to the naked
      eye. Even the clear sickle shape of Venus appears to
      the eye unaided by any instrument only as a brilliant
      star. Galileo was the first to discover the phases,
      when in the year 1610 he directed the newly invented
      telescope upon Venus.

      (...)

      At the present Mercury is the morning star. In
      favorable circumstances he can be seen about March 22
      in the east, as then he has reached his greatest
      elongation. After May, he is once more an evening
      star, and there is again a possibility of seeing him
      about the evening of June, and so on a few times
      during the rest of the year. At present Venus is a
      morning star, and reaches superior conjunction with
      the Sun on July 1, and so as the summer advances, and
      on into the autumn, she will be shining once more in
      fullest splendor in the evening sky."

      Dottie: in another chapter, page 57;

      "(...) The Greeks, who traveled to Egypt and Babylon
      in order to undergo initiation there came to know of
      the age-old records made by these peoples of the
      movements of the planets and the rhythms of solar and
      lunar eclipses and so on. This knowledge affected the
      Greeks of Plato's time with almost shattering
      intensity. That the planets could travel back and
      forth, that they could show times of immobility or
      irregularities of movement, was repellent to the
      Greeks sense of beauty and divine activities. They
      felt the heavenly bodies of the divine beings,
      Aristotle, for example, does not speak of Venus or
      Mercury, but of the star Aphrodite, or the star of
      Hermes. The luciferic element that belongs to them was
      not felt to be ungodlike, since all the Greek gods
      were more or less luciferic in their nature."

      Dottie: I keep feeling that something is peeking out
      from under this last weeks worth of posts between the
      thoughts on America and ....well a new direction or a
      new ugh....something is here...

      d


      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      http://mail.yahoo.com
    • emil_rio
      Dottie, I appreciate your taking the time to contribute the sections from the Elizabeth Vreede book. She regards the teaching of the transposition of the two
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 4, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Dottie, I appreciate your taking the time to contribute the sections
        from the Elizabeth Vreede book. She regards the teaching of
        the "transposition" of the two planetary bodies as very difficult,
        but does distinguish between the bodies and the spheres, and notes
        how the soul after death passes from the Moon, after Kamaloka, to the
        Mercury sphere first. This may be related to RS's teaching that all
        illness is healed in the Mercury sphere. Yes, the relationships and
        inter-weavings of Mercury and Venus are unbelievably involved. As is
        all of astronomy/astrology, especially when everything that is and is
        happening is seen as dynamic living being.

        Here are three quotes from RS on "Astronomy in Relation to Other
        Sciences [especially embryology]":

        "Mathematics must come to a halt in regard to the planetary system,
        the universe... our grasp of reality passes over into chaos. We
        arrive at incommensurate numbers."

        "What is alive in the planetary system is precisely what we cannot
        calculate."

        "If I managed to draw this lemniscatory system in a precise form...it
        would at most be true at the present time... the coming ice age [5000
        AD] would require me to modify the system not a little."

        Believe I'll pass up her book, and this subject, for now. There are a
        few other things I have to do with the rest of my life (just joking).

        Prefer to regard the planet known to be Venus as Mercury, keeping the
        alignment like the chakras. It appears this Lucifer has a lot to do
        with the Mercury processes of evolvement. This Lucifer really gets
        around. He/she is also met in the Sun sphere after death, and becomes
        the guide through the outer planets into the starry world. RS says it
        is very important to recognize Lucifer in the Sun sphere.

        Thank you again.
      • Stephen Clarke
        ... The stellar object denoted as Venus by the Maya is the same one designated by common usage among astonomers and exoteric astrologers. This is known from
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 4, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Martha:

          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "emil_rio"
          <emil_rio@...> wrote:

          > The question arises, for example, from the point Bradford
          > makes: "...how precise the tracking was in the western hemisphere of
          > what we term Venus was." Just which planet were they tracking? Who
          > interpreted and translated the Maya, Aztec and Inca symbols and words
          > for "Venus," which they obviously assume to be our next door neighbor
          > on the Sun side.


          The stellar object denoted as "Venus" by the Maya is the same one
          designated by common usage among astonomers and exoteric astrologers.
          This is known from the amazingly precise cyclic maps they made for its
          bogglingly complicated heliacal rising and setting phases. This they
          used to schedule their warfare. Much Mars energy in their Venus!

          And Who? A couple of generations of cross-disciplinary researchers,
          peer-group crosschecked and vetted with the Maya themselves. There's no
          doubt about this one.

          Stephen
        • emil_rio
          Thanks, Stephen. There s no doubt that the object tracked is the same known as Venus today, but is it really Mercury? ...bogglingly complicated heliacal
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 5, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks, Stephen. There's no doubt that the object tracked is the same
            known as "Venus" today, but is it really Mercury? "...bogglingly
            complicated heliacal rising and setting phases" sounds like Mercury.
            But speculation on my part on this mysterious relationship of Mercury
            and Venus won't accomplish much. Would linguistic analyis (and
            phonetic sounds) of the original Maya words for Venus and/or Mercury
            accomplish anything? I've often thought that RS may have based some
            of what he revealed on the America mysteries on the sounds of the
            names, the ancient language being close to the primal language or
            sound. But that would depend on how accurate a translation he had.
            Speculation?...

            Mercury is one of the most important players in the alchemical
            literature - and processes - perhaps Venus is his cohort. A few other
            notes on Mercury from AP internet resources I have:

            - The planet lying nearer the sun must be known as Venus, and the
            further away planet as Mercury.

            - Spirit of Motion - Mercury stands nearer the Earth than the other
            planets. Mercury - quicksilver.

            - ...the separation of Saturn, Jupiter and Mars occurred before the
            division of Sun and Earth, while later Venus and Mercury split off
            from the Sun, and finally the Moon from the Earth.

            - Mercury shines as Messenger of the Gods.

            - Buddha means Mercury.

            - The "Akasha Chronical" is located between the Earth and the Moon.

            And from Revelation, 22:16, "I Jesus have sent my angel to you with
            the testimony for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of
            David, the bright morning star." Mercury, the 6-pointed, 6-petalled
            star.

            Thanks again.
          • dottie zold
            Dear Martha, I never knew or even contemplated anything remotely close to the idea that Mercury and Venus were connected in such an intimate manner as I am
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 5, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Martha,

              I never knew or even contemplated anything remotely
              close to the idea that Mercury and Venus were
              connected in such an intimate manner as I am beginning
              to understand. A phenomenal young lady gave me a star
              reading at the Fall Equinox I hosted with a few others
              at the clubhouse. And in this she noted that all my
              signs were at the starting point. I can't explain it
              any other way than that: everything was showing that
              all my points were in such a way that a new thing was
              the only way for me.

              Now, I never thought about that in relations to our
              discussions lately but I am thinking today 'how
              interesting it is that these things keep showing some
              line of consistency in my life.' Funny how if we are
              open to the 'magic' of life we can be aware of these
              points that converge.

              I want to share a piece by Ms. Vreede regarding the
              Christ time and as I read the end of the chapter I
              found a small part about Mercury and Venus. Not that
              is sheds any light but I wanted to share it for the
              Magdalene aspect of the 'birth' of Christ into the
              Earth. It's funny because she speaks of how our
              teacher states that the coming down of Christ with
              John in the watery sphere represents the womb and how
              it was that once the Christ was able to fully take
              charge of the spirit sheaths of Jesus the time was for
              the birth which we experienced as a death.

              This line of thinking really has me looking at Judas'
              role once again and also Jesus' words to Peter 'get
              back ye Satan'. How else could it have been 'birthed'
              if the journey did not play out in the manner that it
              did. I have often been conflicted by this because on
              one hand we are looking at destinial path as I
              understand it and on the other there is the thought
              'was this the only way' to have achieved this 'birth'?
              I've never heard our teacher speak on it in any other
              way other than the body of Jesus would not have been
              able to hold it any longer. I mean, what would it have
              looked like if he had not been sacrificed? What would
              have happened to the Nathan Jesus' body? (Harvey
              would've loved me for that question) And if we look at
              the 3 years time 3 we would come upon the 9 which is
              the normal gestation time for a human birth. I don't
              know, something is in there. I guess our teacher has
              already explained this somewhere.

              So this is just a share not necessarily anything
              specific towards Mercury and Venus:

              "The child is surrounded there with its sheaths. In
              the course of embryonic life it transforms these three
              sheaths into what is, after birth, the expression of
              the etheric body, the astral body, and the ego. In the
              case of Christ, one can also speak of the three
              sheaths into which he entered, and which he
              transformed. They are the physical body, the etheric
              body, and the astral body of Jesus of Nazareth. The
              transformation, however, in this case, is a breaking
              up of the physical body, a gradual destruction of the
              physical body - just as in the embryo, processes of
              actual decay occur in the sheaths during the first
              weeks. The power of the Christ consumed this pure and
              unique human body, just as a flame consumes pure wax.
              Therefore, what took place at the end of this
              embryonic life of three years was, externally
              considered, a death. This death was of that physical
              body which, 'for the salvation of the Earth and the
              progress of humanity', had to be forcibly led through
              the terrible act of Crucifixion. Not unto the words
              'It is finished' sounded from the cross did the birth
              of the Christ impulse for the earth occur. One can
              also say that in this moment the horoscope appears -
              the horoscope of both the death and the birth- the
              celestial constellation at the Mystery of Golgotha,
              the configuration of the heavens of that afternoon of
              April 3, 33 A.D.

              (...) The actual 'birth' was then accomplished on the
              third day, on Easter Sunday in the early morning, as
              the Risen One appeared for the first time to Mary
              Magdalene. A delicate morning mood surrounds this
              appearance. Although we meet again with essentially
              the constellation of Good Friday - only the Moon has
              noticeably progressed - yet how different the picture
              looks! (there is a chart here that I can share if
              anyone would like to see it)

              The Sun according to the account of the Evangelists is
              about to rise or has just risen, and is depicted
              directly on the eastern horizon. It is preceded by
              Venus and Mercury, which on Friday evening, since they
              were both morning stars, were not shining, but are now
              both radiantly bright. Mercury is even in its greatest
              elongation, and thus in that part of the world is as
              plainly visible as Venus. The Moon, somewhat past
              full, is just about to set. Saturn is at its lowest
              point, as if pointing to the underworld, just as when
              at its zenith it opens the way for earthly humanity to
              enter the spiritual world. It symbolized the passage
              of the Christ to the souls of the dead in the
              underworld, which takes place in the time between
              death and resurrection - 'Christ's descent into
              hell.'"

              Dottie:

              Wow, i had never seen this meeting with the magdalene
              expressed as a birth that was happening in that
              specific understanding...and it can be considered, for
              me from my studies, that not only was she the
              annointer unto the death but also the annointer by
              virtue of being there, almost as if 'unto whom He was
              born.' i mean He was 'birthed' back into the Earth as
              a new understanding, as the Earth itself...almost as
              if He truly united with what we call 'the Earth's
              sphere'...but it is oh so much more than that. I get
              we almost always speak of the Earth as if it is a
              'thing' a 'planet' but there is something just under
              the ....well I don't know the word for it...but there
              is something, a Being that is just waiting to be known
              by us in a new way. well, i don't know how to continue
              that thought....

              all good things,
              dottie

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              http://mail.yahoo.com
            • dottie zold
              Well, I am thinking that if we look at the 3, 33 we shall have the 3x3 which does indeed come to the nine as in nine months...isn t that interestinng. Well I
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 5, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Well, I am thinking that if we look at the 3, 33 we shall have the
                3x3 which does indeed come to the nine as in nine months...isn't
                that interestinng. Well I guess ya'll knew this and I am just
                figuring it out....anyhow it also occurs to me that this 'birth' of
                Christ, via the Baptism, can also be seen as greatly affecting John
                the Baptist as well in that moment. There is no way for it not to
                have. And I think the same thing can be said for the Magdalene at the
                Resurrection of Christ in the Garden. And this in and of itself pulls
                the Magdalena and the Baptist together in a very unique relationship.
                I guess my next step is to find what the planetary alignement was for
                the 'birth' of Christ at the Jordan...yes, that may tell us a new
                thing towards the connections between Magdalene and John as well as
                the connection between Mercury and Venus in relations to the Sun and
                the Moon and of course our dear precious Earth. If we can look at
                Mercury and Venus as Beings, which it seems we are doing when we
                relate Aphrodite and Apollo and so forth, I imagine we must have a
                new understanding or relationship with the Earth's Being. Doesn't
                that make sense? I guess its just that I have never ever heard anyone
                truly relate Her to us in a Beingness kind of way that shows Her to
                be a real Being of consequence in our lives. We relate that the
                Christ is now in the Earthly sphere but what does that really mean?
                What does it mean that Christ united with the Earthly sphere? What
                does it mean for the Earth Being that this has ocurred? Who is this
                Earth Being? :) whew!

                d

                well, maybe you all know this but my experience is if you do, you are
                not going to tell me so I best be getting on with the study. yikes.



                > Dear Martha,
                >
                > I never knew or even contemplated anything remotely
                > close to the idea that Mercury and Venus were
                > connected in such an intimate manner as I am beginning
                > to understand. A phenomenal young lady gave me a star
                > reading at the Fall Equinox I hosted with a few others
                > at the clubhouse. And in this she noted that all my
                > signs were at the starting point. I can't explain it
                > any other way than that: everything was showing that
                > all my points were in such a way that a new thing was
                > the only way for me.
                >
                > Now, I never thought about that in relations to our
                > discussions lately but I am thinking today 'how
                > interesting it is that these things keep showing some
                > line of consistency in my life.' Funny how if we are
                > open to the 'magic' of life we can be aware of these
                > points that converge.
                >
                > I want to share a piece by Ms. Vreede regarding the
                > Christ time and as I read the end of the chapter I
                > found a small part about Mercury and Venus. Not that
                > is sheds any light but I wanted to share it for the
                > Magdalene aspect of the 'birth' of Christ into the
                > Earth. It's funny because she speaks of how our
                > teacher states that the coming down of Christ with
                > John in the watery sphere represents the womb and how
                > it was that once the Christ was able to fully take
                > charge of the spirit sheaths of Jesus the time was for
                > the birth which we experienced as a death.
                >
                > This line of thinking really has me looking at Judas'
                > role once again and also Jesus' words to Peter 'get
                > back ye Satan'. How else could it have been 'birthed'
                > if the journey did not play out in the manner that it
                > did. I have often been conflicted by this because on
                > one hand we are looking at destinial path as I
                > understand it and on the other there is the thought
                > 'was this the only way' to have achieved this 'birth'?
                > I've never heard our teacher speak on it in any other
                > way other than the body of Jesus would not have been
                > able to hold it any longer. I mean, what would it have
                > looked like if he had not been sacrificed? What would
                > have happened to the Nathan Jesus' body? (Harvey
                > would've loved me for that question) And if we look at
                > the 3 years time 3 we would come upon the 9 which is
                > the normal gestation time for a human birth. I don't
                > know, something is in there. I guess our teacher has
                > already explained this somewhere.
                >
                > So this is just a share not necessarily anything
                > specific towards Mercury and Venus:
                >
                > "The child is surrounded there with its sheaths. In
                > the course of embryonic life it transforms these three
                > sheaths into what is, after birth, the expression of
                > the etheric body, the astral body, and the ego. In the
                > case of Christ, one can also speak of the three
                > sheaths into which he entered, and which he
                > transformed. They are the physical body, the etheric
                > body, and the astral body of Jesus of Nazareth. The
                > transformation, however, in this case, is a breaking
                > up of the physical body, a gradual destruction of the
                > physical body - just as in the embryo, processes of
                > actual decay occur in the sheaths during the first
                > weeks. The power of the Christ consumed this pure and
                > unique human body, just as a flame consumes pure wax.
                > Therefore, what took place at the end of this
                > embryonic life of three years was, externally
                > considered, a death. This death was of that physical
                > body which, 'for the salvation of the Earth and the
                > progress of humanity', had to be forcibly led through
                > the terrible act of Crucifixion. Not unto the words
                > 'It is finished' sounded from the cross did the birth
                > of the Christ impulse for the earth occur. One can
                > also say that in this moment the horoscope appears -
                > the horoscope of both the death and the birth- the
                > celestial constellation at the Mystery of Golgotha,
                > the configuration of the heavens of that afternoon of
                > April 3, 33 A.D.
                >
                > (...) The actual 'birth' was then accomplished on the
                > third day, on Easter Sunday in the early morning, as
                > the Risen One appeared for the first time to Mary
                > Magdalene. A delicate morning mood surrounds this
                > appearance. Although we meet again with essentially
                > the constellation of Good Friday - only the Moon has
                > noticeably progressed - yet how different the picture
                > looks! (there is a chart here that I can share if
                > anyone would like to see it)
                >
                > The Sun according to the account of the Evangelists is
                > about to rise or has just risen, and is depicted
                > directly on the eastern horizon. It is preceded by
                > Venus and Mercury, which on Friday evening, since they
                > were both morning stars, were not shining, but are now
                > both radiantly bright. Mercury is even in its greatest
                > elongation, and thus in that part of the world is as
                > plainly visible as Venus. The Moon, somewhat past
                > full, is just about to set. Saturn is at its lowest
                > point, as if pointing to the underworld, just as when
                > at its zenith it opens the way for earthly humanity to
                > enter the spiritual world. It symbolized the passage
                > of the Christ to the souls of the dead in the
                > underworld, which takes place in the time between
                > death and resurrection - 'Christ's descent into
                > hell.'"
                >
                > Dottie:
                >
                > Wow, i had never seen this meeting with the magdalene
                > expressed as a birth that was happening in that
                > specific understanding...and it can be considered, for
                > me from my studies, that not only was she the
                > annointer unto the death but also the annointer by
                > virtue of being there, almost as if 'unto whom He was
                > born.' i mean He was 'birthed' back into the Earth as
                > a new understanding, as the Earth itself...almost as
                > if He truly united with what we call 'the Earth's
                > sphere'...but it is oh so much more than that. I get
                > we almost always speak of the Earth as if it is a
                > 'thing' a 'planet' but there is something just under
                > the ....well I don't know the word for it...but there
                > is something, a Being that is just waiting to be known
                > by us in a new way. well, i don't know how to continue
                > that thought....
                >
                > all good things,
                > dottie
                >
                > __________________________________________________
                > Do You Yahoo!?
                > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                > http://mail.yahoo.com
                >
              • dottie zold
                Well, now I know we must have a booklet of the basic basic things that should be considered or known while beginning on the path to Initiation. So, in my
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 5, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Well, now I know we must have a booklet of the basic
                  basic things that should be considered or known while
                  beginning on the path to Initiation.

                  So, in my wonderful Effects of Esoteric Development
                  I've come across the explanation of the temperaments.
                  Whew! Man is it crazy or what. I mean here I am doing
                  my do and I have no idea how that is connected to the
                  manner in which I do my research or how I enter into
                  my life's greatest questions. So, I imagine it is
                  obvious to everyone that I am a Sanguine temperament
                  kinda person. Wow. And it is so my challenge isn't it,
                  it's my battle to stay in the room with one thought.
                  It's incredible. I remember when we were on the Ark, I
                  used to thank Danny for keeping on message as I was
                  involved in all these kinds of battles over the fact
                  that there was a feminine being speaking to us through
                  Rudolf Steiner's work. And I remember saying 'thank
                  you Danny' over and over when he would just keep
                  posting these messages that allowed me to get back on
                  track to the one thought I was wanting to study or
                  look at. I mean it may seem incredible to people here
                  but I am so not a battler. This has been the one arena
                  in my life where I have been so vocal. I usually only
                  speak when I have to. But it is so interesting also
                  that our teacher says this is the one area in life
                  where one has to fight the battle. In The Secret
                  Brotherhoods book which is now in my possession:) he
                  says: " There is one thing connected with this feature
                  of the fifth post-Atlantean period, one thing which
                  one should inscribe anew into one's soul every day,
                  one thing which one should not forget even though
                  human beings are particularly prone to forget this
                  particular thing. This is that in this fifth
                  post-Atlantean period the human being must be a
                  warrior for the spirit; human beings must experience
                  how their forces ebb away if they do not continuously
                  hold them in check for the purpose of winning through
                  to the spiritual world. In this fifth post-Atlantean
                  period human beings stand on their freedom to the
                  highest degree! This is something they have to go
                  through with. The idea of human freedom is the
                  yardstick against which must be measured everything
                  that human beings meet with during the fifth
                  post-Atlantean period. For were there forces to
                  weaken, this could cause everything to turn out for
                  the worst. In this fifth post-Atlantean period human
                  beings are not in the situation of being led like
                  children."

                  So in some ways I was fighting for my freedom but it
                  is of my nature to learn from everything around me.
                  And from now having read about the temperaments and so
                  forth I can better understand my conversations with
                  others if I can sense into their temperaments. And it
                  is how we need each other in a way. For what one is
                  good at is not necessarily what the other is good at.
                  Along with the downfall of being pulled in many
                  directions due to my interest in all things, I can
                  find a way, and have been finding a way, to ground
                  myself in one thing at a time. It's just that I have
                  done such a great study on so many things that peek my
                  interest that I have some knowledge about all things
                  but it is of my interest to hone into the one or two
                  things so that I can see them all the way through.
                  Amen to that.

                  So, I just think that this book on the Effects of
                  Esoteric Development really does speak for an all
                  comprehensive book that will allow one to really be
                  aware of the subtle changes that occur along the
                  pathway to spiritual awakening.

                  Happy Sunday everyone,
                  d

                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  http://mail.yahoo.com
                • isenhart7
                  ... its ... no ... Dear Stephen. I have, what may very well be a really dumb question, like I could be overlooking something obvious. I had never thought about
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 5, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    > The stellar object denoted as "Venus" by the Maya is the same one
                    > designated by common usage among astonomers and exoteric astrologers.
                    > This is known from the amazingly precise cyclic maps they made for
                    its
                    > bogglingly complicated heliacal rising and setting phases. This they
                    > used to schedule their warfare. Much Mars energy in their Venus!
                    >
                    > And Who? A couple of generations of cross-disciplinary researchers,
                    > peer-group crosschecked and vetted with the Maya themselves. There's
                    no
                    > doubt about this one.
                    >
                    > Stephen

                    Dear Stephen.

                    I have, what may very well be a really dumb question, like I could be
                    overlooking something obvious. I had never thought about this before
                    Bradford asked the question about the different math paths but if the
                    Mayans were using an 18 month calendar with 20 days each and 5 day
                    weeks then what corresponding (Gregorian) days were missing? Or didn't
                    it work like that? Mabe the weeks differed from one to the next? Maybe
                    all the days were the same-all Wednesdays or all Fridays?

                    But here is what I envisioned relative to sheath development-no Sunday
                    and no Monday. Maybe Mars through Saturn-like Joe Friday would say-just
                    the planets, mam... So no day of devotion and no day of reflection
                    which I find increasingly reflected in the USA. With the advent of
                    computers and cell phones one day can be much like the next and many
                    establishments are open 24/7. But no recognition of and no work with
                    the Sun and the Moon would mean no discernment developed here.

                    Well, the reason I wondered was because, as I recall, when the move was
                    made to the present calendar that we use now days were skipped so that
                    the flow of day Sunday through Saturday wouldn't be interupted or
                    altered. So one day it was, say Sunday the first and the next it was
                    Monday the 11th-I don't know exactly but the days continued in
                    sequence. So it must have been held or known that the days had real
                    correspondance to the planets. So if the Mayans only had five days then
                    what planets did they correspond to? -Val
                  • isenhart7
                    Dear Dottie, Your posts about a booklet remind me of Harvey s last post presenting his idea for a journal. And then there s the idea of a Golden Blade type
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 5, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Dottie,

                      Your posts about a booklet remind me of Harvey's last post presenting
                      his idea for a journal. And then there's the idea of a "Golden Blade"
                      type publication. Locally I work with a group that will be publishing
                      a new calendar this August. It will be a cross between the Chicago
                      Waldorf School's and the Stella Natura-that's their working model. I
                      keep thinking it's going to be similar to the Utne Urban Almanac but
                      we shall see. My work is peripheral-I procured the funding and
                      provide the meeting space.

                      But behind all of these thoughts and initiatives , I think, is the
                      impulse to educate, to inform others of anthroposophical ideas,
                      thoughts, and principles in some organized way. So my thought
                      immediately goes to Steve Hale, whom, I believe, carries this same
                      impulse. I studied anthroposophy for seven or eight years on my own
                      and it was really tough going-I remember these little booklets-the
                      temperment one flaming orange-being like lifelines in a kind of sea
                      of confusion. That's how it was for me. I remember my first book was
                      Rudolf Meyers, something like that, on fairy tales. I hadn't the
                      foggiest what he was talking about. Nor Steiner. After many years of
                      this and many, many books, many lectures, and many booklets I sort of
                      amassed enough information to be able to sort of infer an
                      anthroposophical world-view. Which is still, not to say that I
                      understood Steiner-this was an entirely different (but perhaps
                      parallel process)of threading the needle.

                      But then I was able to have anthroposophical instruction for another
                      seven or eight years so I feel that I've done both and though there's
                      something to be said for going it alone the time spent with a teacher
                      was of tremendous value as well. So I'm always empathetic to Steve's
                      idea of a school because I needed and benefited from one. Also I have
                      always been really taken with Steve's notion of presenting anthro
                      material in some sort of logical progression. Which we can all say,
                      POF is-and yeah it is-but it's a progression of ideas not a
                      progression of knowledge.

                      So anyway, I see now that you too have taken up this impulse to
                      provide a little anthro primer. And I just wonder, maybe, that to the
                      extent anthro mysteries are explored and understood that this impulse
                      to share, to spread this word doesn't arise for every individual in
                      one form or another? Regardless of the form it takes, do we have this
                      impulse in common?-Val
                    • dottie zold
                      Dear Val, I think for me its more about sharing about the things that will happen along the way on this spiritual journey. I think it is geared specifically to
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 5, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Val,

                        I think for me its more about sharing about the things
                        that will happen along the way on this spiritual
                        journey. I think it is geared specifically to 'noting'
                        the specifics of initiation as they occur. I don't
                        think it could really be a class.

                        I think what I get from Stephen H. is that there has
                        been a default in a sense because it seems there is no
                        school for initiation as he understands it to mean
                        specifically. I think he has a misunderstanding about
                        this as it seems to me that the school is Rudolf
                        Steiner seemed to be talking about is what is what the
                        Sections of the Vorstand are supposed to be offering.
                        They offer, as does the Steiner college, sections that
                        help deepen our personal work with the cosmos which
                        then turn into ongoing personal wokr which then
                        includes the spiritual beings as we open up our
                        consciousness.

                        The booklet I am suggesting is one that will point to
                        particular steps that have been accomplished through
                        the spiritual path where changes in the body and then
                        the etheric and then the astral and so forth can be
                        noted. I am acutely aware from this book The Effects
                        of Esoteric Development that I have been developing
                        quite nicely thank you very much:) And it has been
                        mostly from having to rub up against my brothers on
                        line. It has been through them that I have been able
                        to truly work this initiation path. And now the women
                        get to hold me in love, or I allow myself now to be
                        held in love. True love, true warmth as I come to
                        recognize and then I can reciprocate this warmth to
                        myself as well as to others. In allowing this warmth
                        from my self to my self I learn what that feels like
                        for others and then can truly share something that has
                        been birthed from within.

                        I mean I can see that my work and study is ready for
                        the next step and that is due to the transforming of
                        the etheric body in its beginning stages. I mean I can
                        look back and now clearly understand what I was
                        terming the 'burning bush' meant, I can better see my
                        complaints of a loss of memory, my notes of structural
                        change in my face, my eyesight changing so early, the
                        feeling of my spirit slipping back into my body when
                        awakening from a nap, my seeing of a movie like scene
                        and the 'hearing' of a hammer banging on a nail, the
                        seeing of eyes appearing to me in my waking states,
                        being told to purify the body and actually carrying it
                        out. And also, which is very interesting to me, is the
                        backward writing I do now as well as reading. I mean I
                        actually am writing backwards in the sense that I now
                        write on the right side of the page and then the left.
                        That excersize where we are supposed to look back and
                        make ammends and so forth, I do on an minute by minute
                        basis. I am a walking 'reverse ritual backwards' kind
                        of gal.

                        Stephen and you have a different way than I, although,
                        we are all moving to the same place I would think. We
                        are in different streams that are working to the
                        balance of both, or at least I would think. And in
                        this I think it is important that a little booklet, a
                        name came to me the other day, I shall have to await
                        it again as I did not write it down, be there that can
                        put the pieces together so that others can truly note
                        the lines on the staff of their attainment and not
                        have to be depending on whether someone else thinks
                        you have attained a thing or not. I think its
                        important to know that you are indeed making inroads
                        and that there are signs that show this to be true. At
                        this point it is all kinds of people saying 'oh she or
                        he couldn't have seen the Christ, it must've been
                        Lucifer = and so forth. They are making judgments that
                        others, who can be harmed by such silliness, will know
                        inwardly these things are not true, but they can test
                        them to see anyway, and then they will have a little
                        booklet that will share how they might be able to
                        assess their learning's. And it works hand in hand
                        with both POF and also How To Know Higher Worlds and
                        Their Attainments. I mean if one is serious on the
                        path they will be able to note certain things honestly
                        on this path. And if they start claiming things for
                        themselves that are not true they will start feeling
                        redfaced or be skinning their knees and picking
                        themselves back up: better to be falling than to be
                        standing, whistling at the wind.

                        The biggest issue I constantly face with Anthros is
                        the idea that maybe people shouldn't know these things
                        as then their minds will start to see themselves at a
                        certain level and this will just be a deception. And I
                        have to say it really smacks of this non trust I
                        experience across the board in the Society. I mean if
                        someone sees themselves ahead of where they truly are
                        then the universe or their angel is about to help them
                        note where they are mistaken. I mean we are on a true
                        path and not a false one. And in this man is called to
                        know himself beyond what he 'thinks' is true about
                        himself and to get to what 'is' true about himself.
                        And this is the schooling I think is actually needed.
                        This personal school. The other searching and seeking
                        books and so forth all comes together. One does not
                        stay on Steiner's path because it feels good. There is
                        really just to much frieken work. And the work is all
                        internal with how one finds oneself in the world and
                        in relationship.

                        The idea of initiation schools would mean that one has
                        already worked out the personal arena to such an
                        extent that she/he is willing to surrender what they
                        think they know unto the higher worlds who will make
                        their acquaintance. A Dennis Klocek can help because
                        he comes up with practical ideas of how to get to the
                        nitty gritty of working ourselves into the etheric
                        world. Its not really that difficult, and actually all
                        the work is in the personal, which is the stumbling
                        block for most. Sometimes it seems those who have
                        fallen hard have an easier task then those than those
                        that have not and have lived an examplorary life. I
                        mean to move to the next level of attainment one has
                        got to have the motives down pact, has got to be on
                        the path to be a magnificent human being. There is no
                        school that can teach that, its in the personal. And
                        once we have this aspect in good sighting we can know
                        that we will begin to truly walk with the angelic
                        world which can and will be used in a Bodhisattva
                        manner.

                        And I think those that made it to the level to work
                        with Rudolf Steiner, for that very small short amount
                        of time in 1924/25 has mostly been able to work
                        through the antipathies and sympathies. But then with
                        the Dr. gone all chaos assumed and it was back to
                        their own personal work once again: there was more
                        personal blood to be shed. It's that whole 'Light on
                        the Path' understanding.

                        A school. I just find so many spiritual science
                        students unwilling to learn what they think they don't
                        have to learn. I just find so many of them so arrogant
                        or unaware of the personal ick that has got to be
                        gotten through. It's as if it is being ignored. And in
                        this they are unteachable because they think they know
                        it all or because they keep making the decisions, very
                        precisely what they wish to put their attention to. So
                        before we begin to think about teaching others we
                        should really be willing to be taught. And
                        unreservedly. I mean just total surrender. And that
                        doesn't take away anyone's freedom. I mean I surrender
                        all the time to these beautiful women around me
                        because they are teaching my soul something very
                        powerful. And in truth they are not even aware of what
                        they are sharing. But because I am a true student of
                        Michael I am willing to sit with those that in other
                        ways may not appear to be teachers. A man/woman who
                        thinks he is my teacher is not. We are all students
                        and teachers of each other. Its that space where one
                        can say 'he is my teacher', and then the other says 'I
                        am your student'. There is a humility in this
                        willingess to learn that is underated as far as I can
                        see.

                        It is sad to me that there is so much distrust. I
                        think we should be celebrating one another. I have a
                        hard time celebrating those who put others down or who
                        speak behind their backs. I have a very hard time
                        doing that and which is why I probably fight for the
                        other side to the extent I do when all this talk of
                        evil doers and Grays come into the conversation. It's
                        not about not wanting to acknowledge a thing to be
                        true but more that as co students of spiritual science
                        students we have to have greater faith in those that
                        try, even if they falter, to walk the path of
                        spiritual science.

                        My thoughts on this Sunday morning to you dear Val,
                        Dottie

                        __________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        http://mail.yahoo.com
                      • Stephen Clarke
                        ... I leave it to you and others to sort out the Mercury-Venus thing; my brain still clanks to a halt when I try and sort it out. But the passage you quote
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 5, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear Marth:

                          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "emil_rio"
                          <emil_rio@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Thanks, Stephen. There's no doubt that the object tracked is the same
                          > known as "Venus" today, but is it really Mercury? "...bogglingly
                          > complicated heliacal rising and setting phases" sounds like Mercury.


                          I leave it to you and others to sort out the Mercury-Venus thing; my
                          brain still clanks to a halt when I try and sort it out. But the
                          passage you quote was meant with Venus in mind (as referred to in
                          common language). The risings and settings before and after the Sun is
                          a common item of experience to anyone who scans the sky. This Venus is
                          far and away the brightest object in the sky, after the Sun and Moon;
                          you can't miss it. Its orbital rhythm in relation to the earth forms a
                          lovely five-pointed star, it's sister-planet to earth in many ways,
                          etc. Common "Mercury", on the other hand cannot be seen with the naked
                          eye, except on very peculiar and rare occassions, and unless I am
                          mistaken, I believe that its orbital harmonic does not figure
                          prominently - if at all - into the cosmologies of any religion or
                          indigenous pathway (most of its orbit as seen from earth lies within
                          the corona of the Sun).

                          Hope this helps.

                          Stephen
                        • Stephen Clarke
                          ... be ... before ... the ... didn t ... Maybe ... Now we re getting into deeper water where I m in over my head. In short, I don t know the answer to these
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 5, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dear Val:

                            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "isenhart7"
                            <isenhart7@...> wrote:

                            > Dear Stephen.
                            >
                            > I have, what may very well be a really dumb question, like I could
                            be
                            > overlooking something obvious. I had never thought about this
                            before
                            > Bradford asked the question about the different math paths but if
                            the
                            > Mayans were using an 18 month calendar with 20 days each and 5 day
                            > weeks then what corresponding (Gregorian) days were missing? Or
                            didn't
                            > it work like that? Mabe the weeks differed from one to the next?
                            Maybe
                            > all the days were the same-all Wednesdays or all Fridays?

                            Now we're getting into deeper water where I'm in over my head. In
                            short, I don't know the answer to these questions. I will tell you
                            what I think, however, for what its worth. If someone can correct me,
                            I'll appreciate it.

                            I think most of your questions simply don't apply to the Mayan
                            system. For instance, this is the first I've heard of 5-day weeks. I
                            believe they had interlocking 13 and 20 day cycles which gave a 260-
                            day cycle. I think this is both the "year" of Venus and the gestation
                            cycle for the human. If they had a 5-day cycle, I doubt if that was
                            anything approaching our week.

                            Bruce Scofield is just about the only person I aknow of that has done
                            any work investigataing the Mayan calander in light of astrology. He
                            has several books inprint and ccontibutes to The Mountain Astologer
                            magazine. He's good; the one to refer to on questions like these,
                            plus he's conversant with Steiner.

                            Hope this helps,

                            Stephen


                            > But here is what I envisioned relative to sheath development-no
                            Sunday
                            > and no Monday. Maybe Mars through Saturn-like Joe Friday would say-
                            just
                            > the planets, mam... So no day of devotion and no day of reflection
                            > which I find increasingly reflected in the USA. With the advent of
                            > computers and cell phones one day can be much like the next and
                            many
                            > establishments are open 24/7. But no recognition of and no work
                            with
                            > the Sun and the Moon would mean no discernment developed here.
                            >
                            > Well, the reason I wondered was because, as I recall, when the move
                            was
                            > made to the present calendar that we use now days were skipped so
                            that
                            > the flow of day Sunday through Saturday wouldn't be interupted or
                            > altered. So one day it was, say Sunday the first and the next it
                            was
                            > Monday the 11th-I don't know exactly but the days continued in
                            > sequence. So it must have been held or known that the days had real
                            > correspondance to the planets. So if the Mayans only had five days
                            then
                            > what planets did they correspond to? -Val
                            >
                          • Terence
                            ... FYI, I concur. When all else fails, let the common sense of sight prevail when it comes to seeing the Morning Star, Venus Lucifer and the Evening Star,
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 5, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Clarke" <mozartg@...>
                              wrote:

                              > I leave it to you and others to sort out the Mercury-Venus thing; my
                              > brain still clanks to a halt when I try and sort it out. But the
                              > passage you quote was meant with Venus in mind (as referred to in
                              > common language). The risings and settings before and after the Sun is
                              > a common item of experience to anyone who scans the sky. This Venus is
                              > far and away the brightest object in the sky, after the Sun and Moon;
                              > you can't miss it. Its orbital rhythm in relation to the earth forms a
                              > lovely five-pointed star, it's sister-planet to earth in many ways,
                              > etc. Common "Mercury", on the other hand cannot be seen with the naked
                              > eye, except on very peculiar and rare occassions, and unless I am
                              > mistaken, I believe that its orbital harmonic does not figure
                              > prominently - if at all - into the cosmologies of any religion or
                              > indigenous pathway (most of its orbit as seen from earth lies within
                              > the corona of the Sun).

                              FYI, I concur. When all else fails, let the common
                              sense of sight prevail when it comes to seeing the
                              Morning Star, Venus Lucifer and the Evening Star,
                              Venus Hesperus.

                              The pentagram is also key!

                              Terence
                            • emil_rio
                              Something got lost along the way from my first post (22278) on this subject. When we look up in the sky in our time, we know that the physical bright morning
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 5, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Something got lost along the way from my first post (22278) on this
                                subject. When we look up in the sky in our time, we know that the
                                physical bright "morning star" is Venus. I wouldn't refute that. But
                                the planet that we know as Venus is, spiritually, Mercury. Perhaps I
                                wasn't clear enough in the first post, and if not, I apologize for
                                any trouble.

                                Therefore, I'll start over, again using quotes from the site -

                                http://geocosmos.tripod.com/geocentric.htm

                                Rudolf Steiner:

                                "... there has never been a worse instrument for understanding the
                                spiritual foundations of the world than the ideas of Copernicus -
                                never in the whole of human evolution... People assume nowadays that
                                the Sun is firmly fixed in the middle, and that the planets evolve
                                around it in ellipses. In the near future, however, it will be
                                realized that the view of the stars held by Copernicus is much less
                                correct than the earlier Ptolemaic view. The view of the world held
                                by the school of Copernicus and Kepler is very convenient, but, as an
                                explanation of the macrocosm, it is not the truth." (Esoteric
                                Christianity and the Mission of Christian Rosenkreutz, December, 1912)

                                "The part of the Earth evolution prior to the Incarnation of Christ
                                is represented by Mars, the part since by Mercury, appropriately
                                called 'the morning star' in Revelation 2:28 [and 22:16]"

                                So the writer of Revelation, John, would have regarded the morning
                                star as Mercury, and in the earlier Ptolemaic system, that bright
                                morning star (or evening star) was also the Messenger of the Gods,
                                Mercury. The movements of this planet also are mercurial, "mercurial"
                                is defined as "being quick and changeable in character."

                                Thus, according to Steiner's cosmology, the 7 stages of evolution
                                relating to the development of the human being are -

                                Saturn (orbit of Saturn)
                                Sun (orbit of Jupiter)
                                Moon (orbit of Mars)
                                Earth (orbit of Earth)
                                Jupiter (orbit of Venus - actually Mercury)
                                Venus (orbit of Mercury - actually Venus)
                                Vulcan (sphere of Sun)

                                Saturday, Sunday and Monday repeat the names of the three prior
                                planetary incarnations of Earth, and Earth is between Tuesday and
                                Wednesday, Mars and Mercury. The ancient name for Earth was
                                Mars/Mercury, which describes the two halves of Earth evolution,
                                war/healing. The writer of Revelation knew about these two halves,
                                because the two halves are described in the picture of the "Mighty
                                Angel" with one leg in the water and one leg on land.

                                In the spiritual microcosm, the chakras go in this order (from KoHW):

                                Saturn top of head thousand-petalled lotus
                                Jupiter third eye 2-petalled lotus
                                Mars throat 16-petalled lotus
                                Sun heart 12-petalled lotus
                                Venus below heart 8-petalled lotus
                                Mercury abdomen 6-petalled lotus
                                Moon repro organs 4-petalled lotus

                                The three inner planets (destiny) are "in" the lower body, the Sun is
                                the balance at the center, and the three outer planets (cosmos) are
                                above, in the neck and head. That is, spiritually. After death, these
                                planets constitute our body, whereas the inner organs are "seen" as
                                being outside of us. We see there the human heart as though outside
                                of us.

                                Mercury, the morning star is also identified in Revelation (22:16) as
                                the Star of David - the six-pointed star. This is also, according to
                                RS, the symbol of the Grail.

                                So what we know as Venus is spiritually Mercury, the Morning Star.

                                So, personally, when I look up in the morning and see that bright
                                shining star, I'll say hello to Mercury.

                                Just imagine how pleased Luci must be about having usurped Mercury:)
                                Luci, the bright morning star, the messenger of the Gods. Even better
                                than heading up the Theosophical Society.
                              • isenhart7
                                ... Dear Stephen, This is helpful. Somewhere I have read five days. I ll see if I can find a reference. But from what you are saying, with the 13 or 20 day
                                Message 15 of 20 , Feb 5, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Stephen wrote:

                                  > I think most of your questions simply don't apply to the Mayan
                                  > system. For instance, this is the first I've heard of 5-day weeks. I
                                  > believe they had interlocking 13 and 20 day cycles which gave a 260-
                                  > day cycle. I think this is both the "year" of Venus and the gestation
                                  > cycle for the human. If they had a 5-day cycle, I doubt if that was
                                  > anything approaching our week.
                                  >
                                  > Bruce Scofield is just about the only person I aknow of that has done
                                  > any work investigataing the Mayan calander in light of astrology. He
                                  > has several books inprint and ccontibutes to The Mountain Astologer
                                  > magazine. He's good; the one to refer to on questions like these,
                                  > plus he's conversant with Steiner.

                                  Dear Stephen,

                                  This is helpful. Somewhere I have read five days. I'll see if I can
                                  find a reference. But from what you are saying, with the 13 or 20 day
                                  cycles we have nothing like a seven day cycle corresponding to the
                                  planets. That's the main thing and I would like to look into this
                                  further so thanks for the Scofield recommendation.-Val
                                • Stephen Clarke
                                  ... Long version of my reply to this just lost. Short version: can we agree upon a convention to use in referring to Mercury and Venus so we know which
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Feb 6, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Dear Martha:

                                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "emil_rio"
                                    <emil_rio@...> wrote:

                                    > Something got lost along the way from my first post (22278) on this
                                    > subject.


                                    Long version of my reply to this just lost. Short version: can we
                                    agree upon a convention to use in referring to "Mercury" and "Venus"
                                    so we know which one we mean? I fear any discussion of this
                                    intentional piece of obfuscation will repeatedly get tangled up
                                    in "Hey, wait a minute, which one are we talking about?"


                                    As a separate item on this: You cite RS: "The part of the Earth
                                    evolution prior to the Incarnation of Christ is represented by Mars,
                                    the part since by Mercury, appropriately called 'the morning star' in
                                    Revelation 2:28 [and 22:16]"

                                    Unless we have a second level of dificulty here which I'm not clear
                                    about, I think it is unprecedented to allocate the Morning and
                                    Evening Stars to different planets. Regardless of what we call it,
                                    do we agree that this passage refers to the second planet from the
                                    Sun, earth's closest neighbor, and twin in size? This would be common
                                    Venus and esoteric Mercury, right? If common Mercury and esoteric
                                    Venus was being referred to, then we have a real problem with
                                    Steiner, since the M & W Stars have always elsewhere referred to the
                                    heliacal rising and setting of the same planet.

                                    Thanks for taking time to help me sort this out.

                                    Stephen
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.