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Re: RS on Quetz. & Tezcat.

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  • Stephen Clarke
    ... is ... Yes, you are right; the time-period of the black magician which RS accessed via initiate capabilities and the time-period of the public- domain
    Message 1 of 33 , Feb 1, 2006
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      Hello Dottie:

      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "dottie zold"
      <dottie_z@...> wrote:
      > I am reading that whole
      > cycle and I have to say that it is really convoluted and those few
      > paragraphs have to be really sensed into and digged into as there
      is
      > a mixing of time periods in them

      Yes, you are right; the time-period of the 'black magician' which RS
      accessed via initiate capabilities and the time-period of the public-
      domain Aztec material which derive from 1500 yrs later are
      conflated. If you read my essays on the "Mexican Mystery" situation,
      you will find that I have addressed this problem - and others - in a
      way that helps to tease apart these elements.

      And, as you say, there is a fog of confusion that overlays the whole
      cycle. Steiner is struggling here. This carries over into careless
      appreciation of Steiner's material:


      From the back cover of the English-language Anthroposophic Press
      edition of Inner Impulses in Evolution (GA 171):

      "The history presented in most modern textbooks is a collection of
      external facts, arranged chronologically, which seem to have occurred
      without rhyme or reason. Rudolf Steiner takes these facts fully into
      account in this work, but he also goes beyond them to describe the
      inner impulses at work which make the intense drama of human
      development understandable.
      "These lectures take us to ancient Greece to witness the struggle
      with the spirit of groundless fantasy, and to ancient Rome and the
      struggle against the forces of centralized political domination. We
      hear of how these two forces, opposed to humanity, threatened to
      reach a tragic climax in the bloody Aztec mysteries of ancient
      Mexico, until they were thwarted by the heroic efforts of a Mexican
      Sun-initiate.
      "Steiner also describes the effects of these ancient conflicts -
      physical and spiritual - as reflected in European history. The
      Knights Templar and their persecution by Philip the Fair, the run-in
      between Sir Thomas More and King Henry VIII, and the healing wisdom
      of the Rosicrucians and in the works of Goethe are all dealt with. It
      is thus possible, through these lectures, to concretely experience
      part of the on-going drama of human development."


      Notice anything funny about this? I requote for emphasis: "We hear
      of how these two forces, opposed to humanity, threatened to reach a
      tragic climax in the bloody Aztec mysteries of ancient Mexico, until
      they were thwarted by the heroic efforts of a Mexican Sun-initiate."

      By use of apologetically tortured retroactive syntactical
      rationalization, one could spin sense out of this, but the casual
      reader would be forgiven if he or she left with the impression that
      Vitzliputzli lived in the late pre-Columbian Aztec period. But RS is
      explicit that the Sun-hero lived in the early 1st C. AD.

      There is a lot of such noise obscuring the 'signal' in these lectures.

      I await further insights from you.

      Stephen





      that definitely does not follow my
      > teachers way of lecturin. And so much so that if this was the first
      > book I had ever read of him I wouldn't have continued on further.
      > There is something very mixed up. I mean it is not totally clear
      when
      > he moves in and out of Atlanta, at what point he is speaking of in
      > regards to Quetzalcatoatl, if in fact he is speaking of the same
      one
      > we are and as they were many different ones that have been
      attributed
      > to this name, of which he is speaking: I mean is he
      speaking ...well,
      > I'll just say the time periods are very mixed up and I would be
      very
      > very interested in seeing this in German. And I sense a hidden
      thing
      > just as I do the Mother. There is something very very hidden in how
      > he relates this and I believe he is also relating the 'Discovering'
      > of America to two different time schemes.
      >
      > I wouldn't be able to make the claim you are without finding out
      what
      > the original was in German, maybe you have already, who was the
      > translator, who was the audience and so forth. The language used in
      > this lecture cycle also feels very off. The way he describes
      > a 'murder' is also language that I never experienced of him before.
      > He also has this very strange scheme of lucifer and them creating
      > another planet...well, I had never in all his books read of
      something
      > like that. And I can see if anyone has ever said he sounds like
      scifi
      > must've read that one lecture. My teacher is fairly consistant in
      how
      > he expresses the mystery. He also may very well contradict himself
      > often, as Dennis Klocek speaks on, but his language stays pretty
      much
      > the same. This is strange to me.
      >
      > I need more time to sense into this and to ask for guidance as to
      how
      > I can find the truth of the matter. I've already just been pointed
      to
      > the clue pertaining to how this cycle slips in and out of 'time'. I
      > don't think there is any solid spiritual ground to stand on if we
      use
      > these lectures without specifically digging very deep into how it
      is
      > all put together. I mean have you reread the whole series. It is
      > really wierd how he moves in an out of time without really
      > explaining it in his usual manner. I
      >
      >
      > The slipping in and out of 'time' is a really important one because
      > we have something that almost looks like it can go back to the
      > beginning days of Adam and Eve. I mean before there were human
      beings
      > as they are today. And then suddenly we are back at the 'discovery'
      > of America without any clear delineations. Wierd for my teachers
      way
      > of working or at least in my understanding. But I shall hold it in
      my
      > thoughts and I would like to see if we can readdress this at some
      > later point or if you are willing to be open to rereading it again
      > with an eye to time cycles specificaly. Also it is pretty
      interesting
      > that I get a very strong feeling from him regarding Bacon's ongoing
      > incarnations. Very very interesting. But the time cycles are very
      > important for us to look at in regards to Quetzalcoatl and also
      what
      > the German translations are.
      >
      > All good things,
      > Dottie
    • Stephen Clarke
      ... Uh, for what? When you are like you have been recently it is a delight. ... Your intuition on this is correct. Any particular aspect of such a deity or
      Message 33 of 33 , Feb 2, 2006
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        Dear Dottie:

        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold
        <dottie_z@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dearest Stephen,
        >
        > I have to thank you for your patience while conversing
        > with me on a subject that is very dear to your heart
        > and one that you have spent many years contemplating.
        > In my earnestness to open up to something sometimes I
        > am too forthright in a thing and I could use a little
        > more consideration in my words. Pardon me.

        Uh, for what? When you are like you have been recently it is a
        delight.


        > And with that I would like to share a gift you have
        > given me and it is that I have been looking, since the
        > Holy Nights, for the connection between the Four
        > Archangels and Christ. And I have been looking to see
        > how they interrelate with Christ specifically. This
        > site I share with you has to do with an understanding
        > of how the Bacab's were the sons of the Most High God
        > of the Mayan tradition and how they were sent to the
        > Four Corners of the Earth. But something about how
        > they are one with Christ is what I had been looking
        > for. And now I have found it on my travels researching
        > some of what we were speaking on.
        >
        > http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread36095/pg
        >
        > I want to offer that I think it is really hard to
        > really come up with a final say as to what color and
        > what pole each of these amazing Four Brothers share. I
        > find them to be on a pole of sorts that has to do with
        > the Kabala and the dance inherent within it. I believe
        > there is an ongoing shift and they are not static.
        > That seems to make the most sense to me in all of the
        > studies I have looked at.

        Your intuition on this is correct. Any particular aspect of such a
        deity or spirit like these is a variable; they can shift or chage
        from culture to culture, from one time-period to another, or between
        different planes of access. Or the beings themselves may swap
        aaspects - the pre-Columbians in particular were crazy about this,
        although there was a method to their madness. But the
        essential "signature" or underlying quality of any elemental
        Direction was constant, i.e; North is structure and dissolution of
        structure, Dark Goddess qualities are always found here, etc.

        Christ is most frequently accessed from without through the West -
        the station of Love, although since his essential marker is his
        identification with the Self, it is the Fifth Direction of the Center
        which is his home plate. Interesting, becasue the Direction of the
        Center has no spatial extension; likewise, the Ego has no body in the
        sense that the physical, etheric, or astral do. And any Center
        point is identical with every other Center point. One who is familiar
        with mathematical theory on this will find a big inspiration on the
        nature of the Christ with this. And it is true: if I find my Center
        in Christ, I have also found yours. Being without dimension, a point-
        entity can go or be - is - anywhere.




        Those people on the link you posted are well-intentioned but
        esoterically uninformed. The similarities between traditions in
        different parts of the world come primarily from their individual
        ability to contact and commune with constant and fixed inner-plane or
        spiritual realities. Yes, there was a lot more navigation and
        migration than we give ancient peoples credit for, but that was
        secondary. And any pair of languages is going to have some odd
        matches; that in itself doesn't prove anything - that's grasping at
        straws.

        S.
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