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  • gaelman58
    Dottie and Dan: I ve enjoyed your exchange...two people trying to understand aspects of spiritual science without writing things in stone as if they are in
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 9, 2006
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      Dottie and Dan: I've enjoyed your exchange...two people trying to
      understand aspects of spiritual science without writing things in
      stone as if they are in possession of deep occult truths...that is
      students, like me.
      Dottie, I really found your post, "Thoughts on bring it down"
      interesting...I've read it a few times trying to see things that we
      have in common in so far as raw understanding is concerned...and I
      always make the attempt (well, maybe not always) to put what I seem to
      understand within the context of Steiner's epistomological works
      (Theory of Knowledge, PoF, etc).
      I don't think that "mental content" and "thinking" are synonymous...at
      least not for me...people can read books and can have the content in
      their minds...then forget that they read it and walk about under the
      impression that they "know" it...it's my guess that political types do
      that all the time...I suppose that those who read Steiner do that as well.
      Sometimes the mental content from reading esoteric works can get a bit
      rich, eh?...I suppose that's What Dan was referring to with the "head
      in the anthill" allusion...that's when, for me, the Zen master's
      admonition makes sense..."when you wash the dishes pay attention to
      washing the dishes" and presumably not (among other things) what the
      spiritual hierarchies intend for you.
      Dottie, I was struck by your "I am in a constant state of living in
      these thoughts or these thoughts living in me" as well as Val's "it's
      the thought that counts"...I particularly interested in the "constant
      state" aspect of it...you're alluding to what you experience and I
      try to relate it to what I experience...for me, sometimes it's
      thinking and sometimes it's just mental content...regards, Gaelman
    • dottie zold
      Hey Gaelman, My experience of this constant state of now that you make me think about what the experience is like, is like a weaving or something. Something
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 9, 2006
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        Hey Gaelman,

        My experience of this 'constant state of' now that you make me think
        about what the experience is like, is like a weaving or something.
        Something weaving with me in my life as I walk through it. I imagine
        it as me in the vertical and this 'weaving of thoughts or energy'
        accompanying me in the horizontal. Like a wave or something. And it
        never leaves, it is always with me in every single moment. I really
        live in this state of constant thought on the mystery.

        I am not one who can just read a thing and start talking like I know
        it. I mean if I hadn't gone in what looked like the opposite
        direction of what the Steiner students did with Lazarus and then
        Novalis and then Raphael, I woulda never found the mystery I didn't
        even know I was chasing. I mean I didn't mean to go opposite but my
        thoughts, and not only that, but my methods as well, just kept moving
        in a direction that seemed to be opposite of theirs. But it actually
        is not, its parrallel believe it or not.
        eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
        eee

        But I have to say, truly, I am experiecing a deadening of the way the
        thoughts are allowed to move in the Anthroposophical Society. I mean
        its like there is so much fear that it is against their karma for it
        to be so. It actually feels like the freedom has been cut off or out
        or something. How can we work to 'know' a thing but deny the
        experience or it or maybe not even seek the experience of it?

        I've been thinking on Magic and Atavism and it occurs to me that both
        of these paths are valid in some way. But in Steiner's path there is
        this need to use only our own ability without depending on Magic or
        the old clairvoyance way of finding a thing or actualizing a thing. I
        was thinking about how I have this ability since a child to see
        things. As a teen I always knew things before others, I mean I was
        highly intuitive. To an extreme. But I never thought about it other
        than trying to help manuever what ever I felt had to be maneuvered in
        order for things to go 'right' what I thought right was. And then in
        my 20s I became aware that I knew what others were thinking or what
        their next move was and I realized then what their souls were longing
        for. But I didn't understand this in a conscious manner just that I
        knew what each person needed to do to succeed in what they wanted.
        Not what they physically wanted but what they spiritually wanted.
        Needless to say I took on a very passive aggressive personality but
        not consciously aware of it. When I was in my early thirties, when I
        encountered Steiner, 32-33 I became aware of my behavior and if I had
        continued in it would've turned into a manipulation of others. I
        stopped it immediately. And then I became acutely aware that I had
        to 'turn off' this ability to see others souls longings. I mean my
        friends would be saying 'I didn't tell you that, why are you
        blablablablahing me' specifically with my ex. I turned it off and I
        never turned it back on. Once, a year or so ago I decided to see if I
        could help someone with an issue I decided to try and 'sense' into
        the situation and it was really really interesting to have to 'think'
        my way into it verses 'feel' my way into it.

        So, then we come to the idea of how we can know a thing and what that
        experience can be. It's like we have to avoid the magic and the
        atavistic clairvoyance and rely soley on ourselves our own ego. And I
        disagree with Stephen H. that Mikael wants us to 'think' we are doing
        it ourselves. He's not manipulative like that. And anyway ...well it
        doesn't matter I guess.... But the point is that as we work in these
        thoughts, along with the practice of the exercises given to us by
        Rudolf Steiner, we can really really know we are ensouled. Can you
        find that experience? And the problem for Anthros is that in one hand
        its like they want to make sure the mind is clean and clear but
        somewhere along the line they forget to interact personally,daily
        minutely with the spirit world. I mean we are in the spiritual
        worlds. We are not separate from it. We are in it, it is our home.
        And yet we continue to allow things to separate us from it.

        I mean, I keep asking for references from one of our brothers. And
        rarely did I get them. Now, I wasn't asking to be mean or
        confrontational or whathave you but I felt like what was being
        shared, and in the manner it was being shared, was not a real
        experience but was rather a book experience being passed off as a
        real spiritual experience. Now, that is not to say anything bad about
        the brother rather it is to push for the intimate interaction with
        the spirit world, the coming to how we can know a thing, verses
        repeating a thing or thinking a thing. I mean when I can find the
        references of this brother in a book, and realize that 'yes, it is
        book read and not an actual spiritual experience' we have a problem.
        Because in a way this brother seems to be partially decieving
        himself. Now the book reading may lead to a real experience but my
        experience is that many stop at the book, divine into how it can be
        true and move on down the line. And in my mind that is decieving
        oneself.

        So, do you let yourself feel your angels? Do you know how to do that?
        Do you know that you are surrounded by not only your angel but those
        of others as well? Do you let yourself stand in front of someone and
        realize that your angel is hanging out with the other persons angel
        and you've had some agreement and then think to what it is? Do you
        let yourself get above yourself and interact with what you call
        Mother Mary, I mean in a real tangible manner. And if you do,why do
        you try to contact her in the first place? What do you need from her?
        I mean, Gaelman, who is Christ? Really, who is Christ? Where the heck
        did this cat come from? It's frieken real. I mean I just saw Him
        referenced as El elyon? That is the God Most High. Does anyone know
        what that really means or do we just think of Christ, and feel him
        and wanna be like him and take him on and so forth? It's not good
        enough for me at this point to just 'know' Christ in the manner
        everyone else does or so appears to me. I have questions. Who are
        you? I mean I get what everyone says of Him, I know what I feel of
        Him, but I want to know Him. Not just know Him but KNOW HIM!!! Man
        that cats got to be real in front of me for me to truly do his work.
        It's not like in the old days, we are called to a new relationship
        with Christ. Changes are about and we are sowing the seeds for the
        next epoch and we need to be open to the experience of the Christ
        verses us controlling what we can know and what we can not know.

        My point in how we come to know a thing whether it be through magic
        or old ways is a big one to me. We are right to let them go but even
        though they are here, and they are present, we have to ground the
        experiences in the works you mentioned of Rudolf Steiner such as POF
        etc. But this does not disinclude (dottie word I guess)experience of
        the spiritual beings who work with us. If anything it helps us to
        clarify our experiences. And these experiences are not just in
        thought, mind thought, they are in the heart thought that turns into
        an experience with the spiritual world which is our home, which is
        our nature.

        It might be nice to suggest a two week experience of rising to the
        spirit world around us and note what our experiences are. I mean
        they will just start showing up when you acknowledge them past your
        thinking mind. Your whole body, all your senses will come to an
        understanding. It's kinda like what our teacher said in the final
        days of the Christmas Conference: you got to feel it down to your
        fingertips, all your senses, let your self feel it to your
        fingertips'.

        All good things to you Gaelman,
        d






        > Dottie and Dan: I've enjoyed your exchange...two people trying to
        > understand aspects of spiritual science without writing things in
        > stone as if they are in possession of deep occult truths...that is
        > students, like me.
        > Dottie, I really found your post, "Thoughts on bring it down"
        > interesting...I've read it a few times trying to see things that we
        > have in common in so far as raw understanding is concerned...and I
        > always make the attempt (well, maybe not always) to put what I seem
        to
        > understand within the context of Steiner's epistomological works
        > (Theory of Knowledge, PoF, etc).
        > I don't think that "mental content" and "thinking" are
        synonymous...at
        > least not for me...people can read books and can have the content
        in
        > their minds...then forget that they read it and walk about under the
        > impression that they "know" it...it's my guess that political types
        do
        > that all the time...I suppose that those who read Steiner do that
        as well.
        > Sometimes the mental content from reading esoteric works can get a
        bit
        > rich, eh?...I suppose that's What Dan was referring to with
        the "head
        > in the anthill" allusion...that's when, for me, the Zen master's
        > admonition makes sense..."when you wash the dishes pay attention to
        > washing the dishes" and presumably not (among other things) what the
        > spiritual hierarchies intend for you.
        > Dottie, I was struck by your "I am in a constant state of living in
        > these thoughts or these thoughts living in me" as well as
        Val's "it's
        > the thought that counts"...I particularly interested in
        the "constant
        > state" aspect of it...you're alluding to what you experience and I
        > try to relate it to what I experience...for me, sometimes it's
        > thinking and sometimes it's just mental content...regards, Gaelman
        >
      • nadmateescu
        Hello Gaelman, I saw that Dottie explained her s state of spirit regarding the living thoughts . About the mental content of course,I recieved a lot of
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 10, 2006
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          Hello Gaelman,

          I saw that Dottie explained her's state of spirit regarding
          the "living thoughts". About the "mental content" of course,I
          recieved a lot of these remarks from my friends, at my time that I
          was trying to explain some things to me (allways an inner experience
          left you much more I said - with an inner suffering, a tremendous
          feeling of "pain-soul of knowledge" - but on this inner suffering is
          based the spiritual knowledge process. But that is what Dottie
          explained when she was asking us about the angel personal relation.
          The organism that is thinking in this high process, developing
          imaginations that you will find as answers in your inner-deep-soul
          is this being who brings to you closer - your higher self in the way
          of complete to Mannas.
          If you understand what I am saing, that somehow also my sleep-
          consciousness had changed.
          And in fact the world of thoughts is perfect of what Steiner said
          that "the head in the anthill"; it seems hard to find yourself in
          this all-conected-with realm.The Mother-Ideas ...
          So, for me, somehow it's better to hold Anthroposophia's hand - the
          writtings of Rudolf Steiner that in my searchings are connected now
          also, with Sophia-Joan mysteries
          And yes, of course, some mysteries regarding the sixth epoch is
          somehow "floating" in our imaginations, and somehow these inner-
          feelings are "stoned" and captured in writting.

          I'm sure that you all knew this. For me, it's quite new.:-)

          Best regards from no-limb land Romania ;-), Dan

          P.s. I trying with all my unperfectioned english to put in my heart,
          all the content of the true Anthroposophia's archangelic words as
          Val and holderlin66' thoughts.
          Thanks again, Dan












          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "gaelman58"
          <gaelman58@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Dottie and Dan: I've enjoyed your exchange...two people trying to
          > understand aspects of spiritual science without writing things in
          > stone as if they are in possession of deep occult truths...that is
          > students, like me.
          > Dottie, I really found your post, "Thoughts on bring it down"
          > interesting...I've read it a few times trying to see things that we
          > have in common in so far as raw understanding is concerned...and I
          > always make the attempt (well, maybe not always) to put what I
          seem to
          > understand within the context of Steiner's epistomological works
          > (Theory of Knowledge, PoF, etc).
          > I don't think that "mental content" and "thinking" are
          synonymous...at
          > least not for me...people can read books and can have the content
          in
          > their minds...then forget that they read it and walk about under
          the
          > impression that they "know" it...it's my guess that political
          types do
          > that all the time...I suppose that those who read Steiner do that
          as well.
          > Sometimes the mental content from reading esoteric works can get a
          bit
          > rich, eh?...I suppose that's What Dan was referring to with
          the "head
          > in the anthill" allusion...that's when, for me, the Zen master's
          > admonition makes sense..."when you wash the dishes pay attention to
          > washing the dishes" and presumably not (among other things) what
          the
          > spiritual hierarchies intend for you.
          > Dottie, I was struck by your "I am in a constant state of living in
          > these thoughts or these thoughts living in me" as well as
          Val's "it's
          > the thought that counts"...I particularly interested in
          the "constant
          > state" aspect of it...you're alluding to what you experience and I
          > try to relate it to what I experience...for me, sometimes it's
          > thinking and sometimes it's just mental content...regards, Gaelman
          >
        • dottie zold
          I wanted to share a few things that speak to a few questions I had: As a sign that the conclusion of the covenant with Yahweh signified a kind of new creation
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 10, 2006
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            I wanted to share a few things that speak to a few
            questions I had:

            "As a sign that the conclusion of the covenant with
            Yahweh signified a kind of new creation of man, in
            repetition of the primeval creation when Yahweh
            sculptured and moulded man's form out of earth
            substance, the two figures, who in the new creation
            take the place of Adam and Eve, received new names;
            into both names the H sound is inserted. Abram is
            changed to Abraham, Sarai becomes Sarah. Abram meant
            'the father of the height'; Abraham becomes 'the
            father of nations'. Sarai signified 'the one wanting
            to rule'; Sarah means 'the one consecrated to rule'.
            But more important than the change of meaning that
            ocurred along with the name change was this: As Yahweh
            once breathed his divine breath into Adam, now, with
            the H sound, he breathes into the 'name' of man a hint
            of the future. The form received an intimation of a
            content which the future would bring. This is the
            meaning of the course of generations, now beginning,
            namely to build a form and vessel for the divine
            spirit. Yahweh entered the human sheath of Abraham. In
            time to come, the higher one, the El elyon, would
            enter into a human body which was to be formed through
            the consecrated heritage of this lineage. By
            indicating that Melchizedek was supposed to have
            performed the priestly act of circumcision on Abraham,
            the apocryphal tradition helps us to form concret
            historical apercus and conceptions concerning the
            events of this important turning-point in the Abraham
            destiny. Again and again the curtains in front of the
            mystery guidance from which mankinds destinies are
            led."

            Genesis by Emil Bock



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          • dottie zold
            Hey Friends, Gareth Knight has a book called Qabalistic Symbolism and it is pretty interesting. I find in there that just as there were twelve brothers to the
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 10, 2006
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              Hey Friends,

              Gareth Knight has a book called Qabalistic Symbolism
              and it is pretty interesting. I find in there that
              just as there were twelve brothers to the tribes and
              twelve sisters, so told by my Rabbi, we can also find
              the Seven Rishis also with Seven Sisters, the ones
              called Pleidies. That's an interesting thought that
              I've not considered before as I have always been so
              caught up in this all male dramology.

              But I wanted to share something in respect to the
              thought of 'living in the thoughts or the thoughts
              living in me'.

              Chapter XVI Malkuth - The Kingdom

              44. " The Spiritual Experience of Malkuth is the
              Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel.
              The Holy Guardian Angel is often confused with the
              Higher Self or Individuality, (Daath, Chesed, Geburah,
              Tiphareth.) behind the Lower Self or Personality.
              (Netzach, Hod, Yesod, Malkuth.) In reality however,,
              it is very different.

              45. " In the very early days of manifestation before
              humanity had started upon the journey of evolution,
              the Divine Plan was projected by the Mind of God into
              the consciousness of the swarm of Divine Sparks which
              constituted the basis of humanity. With the coming of
              evolutionary life the swarm broke up to act as
              individual units and at the same time the conception
              of the Divine Plan also 'broke up', a small piece
              going with each Divine Spark.

              46. " This, of course, is very much in metaphorical
              terms, but the implications are of very real import.
              The true Spiritual Experience of the Knowledge and
              Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel is no astral
              vision but an awareness of the true destiny that each
              human being has to fulfill as his evolutionary task.
              Usually this will manifest as an inner urge within a
              man, and such a one goes through physical life with a
              mission, he is a 'man of destiny'. Occasionally this
              impulsion to a definite form of activity may be
              conceived as a a separate entity as in the case of
              Socrates and his 'daimon', which was probably an
              aspect of his Holy Guardian Angel."

              Dottie: and in another chapter I find this:

              The 17th Path Tiphareth - Binah

              5. " The Holy Spirit may be applied to Yesod or Binah
              and there is indeed much in common between the two
              Sephiroth as meditation along the Moon/Water symbolism
              of Yesod and the Great Sea of Binah will show.

              6. " Binah is also closely connected with the Holy
              Guardian Angel in spite of the fact that the Knowledge
              and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel is the
              Spiritual Experience of Malkuth. There is, of course,
              again a close link between Binah and Malkuth, the
              Superior Mother and the Inferior Mother. The Holy
              Guardian Angel is not the Individuality, but that
              aspect of the 'Group Thought-form' of God which
              impressed the Swarm of Sparks at the beginning of
              Time. When the Swarm broke up to undergo individual
              experience in manifestation the 'Group Thought-form'
              broke up also, each fragment connected with a
              particular Divine Spark. The above is, of course, at
              best a crude analogy but the Holy Guardian Angel may
              be considered to be that part of the human being which
              reveals his purpose in manifestation to him in
              accordance with the Divine Plan.

              7. " In this we have the explanation of the esoteric
              titles o the Tarot Trump and also of the astrological
              sign. The intimations of a Holy Guardian Angel is an
              Oracle of the Mighty Gods, each Holy Guardian Angel
              being a Child of the Voice, Word or Logos. Such
              intimations will, of course, be above the levels of
              mind so they manifest as the Yetziratic Text implies,
              as Faith. This may be not only a general Faith in God
              but the faith in himself that every dynamic human
              being has to press on with what he considers to be his
              true field of endeavor, his true vocation, whatever
              the opposition.

              8. " The astrological sign, Gemini, the Twins,
              indicates the true relationship that should exist
              between the Holy Guardian Angel and the Individuality.
              They should be a reflection one to the other.

              13. " The Key to the Path, the Hebrew letter Zain,
              means a Sword. The shape of the letter suggests a
              sword and, in another way, the action of the Holy
              Guardian Angel. The Holy Guardian Angel is Knowledge
              and Purpose on its own high level and is indicated by
              the Yod at the top of the letter. The Holy Guardian
              Angel projects a 'rod' of Knowledge and Purpose
              downward into manifestation and this is represented by
              the vertical line of the letter. There is nothing
              attached to the lower end of this shaft for the inner
              opportunity presented has to be seized and acted
              upon."

              14. " The attribution of the Sword may seem strange at
              first in connection with the Lovers and Twins, for the
              Sword is a symbol of separation. It is, however, in
              perfect accord with the rest of the symbolism. This
              Path is essentially one of Separation for the
              separation of the Sparks of the Human Swarm is
              essential for individual evolution; similarly there
              must be a separation between the part of the Self that
              stays in Heaven and the part that descn=ends into
              manifestation. This separation is part of the Vision
              of Sorrow of Binah, one of whose Magical Images is a
              heart pierced with a swords. Furthermore we must bear
              in mind that the Heavenly Twins, though similar, and
              united by relationship and love, ARE separate beings.
              Without separation there could be no demonstration of
              Love."

              Dottie:

              Well, goodeness, so much I am inspired to contemplate
              while writing this. I mean I go to the 'sword of
              Michael' as the Rod, as the Intelligence, as the
              Serpent Wisdom.

              To the idea of destiny man and holding onto the vision
              that our angels, individually, have for us, and that
              we should follow that, no matter how strange it may
              seem to others. I think if we have followed the strict
              course Rudolf Steiner lays out that we can trust no
              matter how strange it may sound to others we must walk
              this path of knowing our Guardian Angel guides us
              true. No matter how 'grandiose' it may seem to others,
              we can know that it is not really grandiose to us as
              it is our very own path and we must follow it to the
              end no matter what. We must have faith and build the
              confidence in that faith of our inner working
              relationship with our Guardian Angels. Of course we
              must be open to listening to the outer friends as well
              as the inner friends who help us to course correct a
              thing that may become rigid within us. It seems it
              must be always done and considered with the highest
              love imaginable.

              d



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            • dottie zold
              Well, as I consider this further I find that I can see that the rod that is put down into the pit wherein our hero of the Christian Rosenkrux story stands,
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 10, 2006
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                Well, as I consider this further I find that I can see that the 'rod'
                that is put down into the pit wherein our hero of the Christian
                Rosenkrux story stands, could possibly be considered
                the 'Intelligence' of Mikael: that it is by this Intelligence we are
                able to pull ourselves up and then go to meet the 'Virgin'.

                So this takes me again to a more intimate picture of Mikael working
                here. And if we realize that he is working here we have to realize
                who he is working through as in a Bhodisattva manner and who it is
                that works through Mikael as in a Bhodisattva manner.

                my thoughts,
                d




                14. " The attribution of the Sword may seem strange at
                first in connection with the Lovers and Twins, for the
                Sword is a symbol of separation. It is, however, in
                perfect accord with the rest of the symbolism. This
                Path is essentially one of Separation for the
                separation of the Sparks of the Human Swarm is
                essential for individual evolution; similarly there
                must be a separation between the part of the Self that
                stays in Heaven and the part that descn=ends into
                manifestation. This separation is part of the Vision
                of Sorrow of Binah, one of whose Magical Images is a
                heart pierced with a swords. Furthermore we must bear
                in mind that the Heavenly Twins, though similar, and
                united by relationship and love, ARE separate beings.
                Without separation there could be no demonstration of
                Love."
              • dottie zold
                And in this, can we not also find that there are two indivdual lines of physical incarnation that lead the male physical body and the female physical body back
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 10, 2006
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                  And in this, can we not also find that there are two indivdual lines
                  of physical incarnation that lead the male physical body and the
                  female physical body back to its rightful place before the Fall.

                  Again, I will try to be clearer in my thought:

                  Jesus = Eve soul never incarnated

                  Nathan Mother = Adam soul never incarnated

                  Baptist friend = Eve soul incarnated

                  Magdalene = Adam soul incarnated

                  therefore we have:

                  Baptist and Jesus together

                  and

                  Mary and Magdalene together.

                  But, well, it is so frieken tricky....why is it that these men would
                  have the female aspect and the Mary's the male aspect....but yet we
                  call the Baptist the Adam and the Magdalene the Eve.....I wonder if
                  this has something to do with how it is that everything is its
                  opposite in the spirit world as our teacher says.


                  So, if we follow the below statement as to the swords it would seem
                  that not only the male can have an ongoing incarnational line it
                  would have to be that the Eve part also has to have her fullness
                  completed as well and not just some imagined virgin smiling down and
                  helping all the men. She has to get hers as well. yup.

                  d

                  p.s. I am still working on this Nathan Mary and the Nathan Jesus, and
                  how that meets with the incarnated old souls of Adam and Eve in the
                  Baptist as well as the Magdalene. Can anyone show me to be completely
                  off kilter to this concept? If so I would appreciate it.


                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > 14. " The attribution of the Sword may seem strange at
                  > first in connection with the Lovers and Twins, for the
                  > Sword is a symbol of separation. It is, however, in
                  > perfect accord with the rest of the symbolism. This
                  > Path is essentially one of Separation for the
                  > separation of the Sparks of the Human Swarm is
                  > essential for individual evolution; similarly there
                  > must be a separation between the part of the Self that
                  > stays in Heaven and the part that descn=ends into
                  > manifestation. This separation is part of the Vision
                  > of Sorrow of Binah, one of whose Magical Images is a
                  > heart pierced with a swords. Furthermore we must bear
                  > in mind that the Heavenly Twins, though similar, and
                  > united by relationship and love, ARE separate beings.
                  > Without separation there could be no demonstration of
                  > Love."
                  >
                • dottie zold
                  I suggest maybe not reading this if you are bothered by my back and forths....d And then the Zarathustra Jesus is the Manu or the final aspect of that whole
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 10, 2006
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                    I suggest maybe not reading this if you are bothered
                    by my back and forths....d


                    And then the Zarathustra Jesus is the Manu or the
                    final aspect of that whole incarnational line that
                    reaches up, that were the teachers of the old way of
                    being guided,...and his twin would be Thoth or Hermes
                    and Melchizedek and they sat in Kether and Malkuth as
                    Sandophon and Metatron/Enoch....

                    And now we are to 'live' in the body with Christ. He
                    is no longer separated from us He is within us. And
                    we also have His Michael Mind as a part of that Christ
                    that now lives within us?

                    okay, and now that this Adam and Eve soul that had
                    never incarnated, incarnates, and they take on the
                    Sins of the world.........and they were reunited not
                    only in Heaven but also here on Earth.....does this
                    mean ........can't hold it....now that this Adam and
                    Eve have been united here on earth in a spiritual
                    form....god this is so hard......because then we have
                    the Christ that kind of fuses them in a
                    way....right....


                    > And in this, can we not also find that there are two
                    > indivdual lines
                    > of physical incarnation that lead the male physical
                    > body and the
                    > female physical body back to its rightful place
                    > before the Fall.
                    >
                    > Again, I will try to be clearer in my thought:
                    >
                    > Jesus = Eve soul never incarnated
                    >
                    > Nathan Mother = Adam soul never incarnated
                    >
                    > Baptist friend = Eve soul incarnated
                    >
                    > Magdalene = Adam soul incarnated
                    >
                    > therefore we have:
                    >
                    > Baptist and Jesus together
                    >
                    > and
                    >
                    > Mary and Magdalene together.
                    >
                    > But, well, it is so frieken tricky....why is it that
                    > these men would
                    > have the female aspect and the Mary's the male
                    > aspect....but yet we
                    > call the Baptist the Adam and the Magdalene the
                    > Eve.....I wonder if
                    > this has something to do with how it is that
                    > everything is its
                    > opposite in the spirit world as our teacher says.
                    >
                    >
                    > So, if we follow the below statement as to the
                    > swords it would seem
                    > that not only the male can have an ongoing
                    > incarnational line it
                    > would have to be that the Eve part also has to have
                    > her fullness
                    > completed as well and not just some imagined virgin
                    > smiling down and
                    > helping all the men. She has to get hers as well.
                    > yup.
                    >
                    > d
                    >
                    > p.s. I am still working on this Nathan Mary and the
                    > Nathan Jesus, and
                    > how that meets with the incarnated old souls of Adam
                    > and Eve in the
                    > Baptist as well as the Magdalene. Can anyone show me
                    > to be completely
                    > off kilter to this concept? If so I would appreciate
                    > it.
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > 14. " The attribution of the Sword may seem
                    > strange at
                    > > first in connection with the Lovers and Twins, for
                    > the
                    > > Sword is a symbol of separation. It is, however,
                    > in
                    > > perfect accord with the rest of the symbolism.
                    > This
                    > > Path is essentially one of Separation for the
                    > > separation of the Sparks of the Human Swarm is
                    > > essential for individual evolution; similarly
                    > there
                    > > must be a separation between the part of the Self
                    > that
                    > > stays in Heaven and the part that descn=ends into
                    > > manifestation. This separation is part of the
                    > Vision
                    > > of Sorrow of Binah, one of whose Magical Images is
                    > a
                    > > heart pierced with a swords. Furthermore we must
                    > bear
                    > > in mind that the Heavenly Twins, though similar,
                    > and
                    > > united by relationship and love, ARE separate
                    > beings.
                    > > Without separation there could be no demonstration
                    > of
                    > > Love."
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >




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                  • gaelman58
                    Dottie the famous Zold: I appreciate your going to the trouble of writing all that you wrote below and would like to give you something of value in
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 10, 2006
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                      Dottie the famous Zold: I appreciate your going to the trouble of
                      writing all that you wrote below and would like to give you something
                      of value in return...but I honestly don't know if I can do
                      that...maybe I can though, maybe.

                      Sometimes I think I have a pretty good sense of timing...but not in
                      the sense of my "being timely" through my own effort...rather now and
                      again things seem to be "thrown my way"...and so it seems that I often
                      find myself reading something of Steiner and it pertains exactly to
                      what other folks are involving themselves in...at least in seems that
                      way to me.

                      Now I'd agree with you that reading a book (any book) ain't life...and
                      this "life in the spirit" we seek should be real and palpable...in our
                      hearts, minds and actions...nonetheless (if you'll permit) let me
                      direct you to what I just happened to read in Steiner's "Materialism
                      and the Task of Anthroposophy", 1st lecture, where Steiner speaks of
                      clairvoyance in the present time. It should put all of us on guard
                      with respect to what we experience as our mental content.

                      Good things to Ould Dottie Zold...Gaelman





                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "dottie zold"
                      <dottie_z@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hey Gaelman,
                      >
                      > My experience of this 'constant state of' now that you make me think
                      > about what the experience is like, is like a weaving or something.
                      > Something weaving with me in my life as I walk through it. I imagine
                      > it as me in the vertical and this 'weaving of thoughts or energy'
                      > accompanying me in the horizontal. Like a wave or something. And it
                      > never leaves, it is always with me in every single moment. I really
                      > live in this state of constant thought on the mystery.
                      >
                      > I am not one who can just read a thing and start talking like I know
                      > it. I mean if I hadn't gone in what looked like the opposite
                      > direction of what the Steiner students did with Lazarus and then
                      > Novalis and then Raphael, I woulda never found the mystery I didn't
                      > even know I was chasing. I mean I didn't mean to go opposite but my
                      > thoughts, and not only that, but my methods as well, just kept moving
                      > in a direction that seemed to be opposite of theirs. But it actually
                      > is not, its parrallel believe it or not.
                      > eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
                      > eee
                      >
                      > But I have to say, truly, I am experiecing a deadening of the way the
                      > thoughts are allowed to move in the Anthroposophical Society. I mean
                      > its like there is so much fear that it is against their karma for it
                      > to be so. It actually feels like the freedom has been cut off or out
                      > or something. How can we work to 'know' a thing but deny the
                      > experience or it or maybe not even seek the experience of it?
                      >
                      > I've been thinking on Magic and Atavism and it occurs to me that both
                      > of these paths are valid in some way. But in Steiner's path there is
                      > this need to use only our own ability without depending on Magic or
                      > the old clairvoyance way of finding a thing or actualizing a thing. I
                      > was thinking about how I have this ability since a child to see
                      > things. As a teen I always knew things before others, I mean I was
                      > highly intuitive. To an extreme. But I never thought about it other
                      > than trying to help manuever what ever I felt had to be maneuvered in
                      > order for things to go 'right' what I thought right was. And then in
                      > my 20s I became aware that I knew what others were thinking or what
                      > their next move was and I realized then what their souls were longing
                      > for. But I didn't understand this in a conscious manner just that I
                      > knew what each person needed to do to succeed in what they wanted.
                      > Not what they physically wanted but what they spiritually wanted.
                      > Needless to say I took on a very passive aggressive personality but
                      > not consciously aware of it. When I was in my early thirties, when I
                      > encountered Steiner, 32-33 I became aware of my behavior and if I had
                      > continued in it would've turned into a manipulation of others. I
                      > stopped it immediately. And then I became acutely aware that I had
                      > to 'turn off' this ability to see others souls longings. I mean my
                      > friends would be saying 'I didn't tell you that, why are you
                      > blablablablahing me' specifically with my ex. I turned it off and I
                      > never turned it back on. Once, a year or so ago I decided to see if I
                      > could help someone with an issue I decided to try and 'sense' into
                      > the situation and it was really really interesting to have to 'think'
                      > my way into it verses 'feel' my way into it.
                      >
                      > So, then we come to the idea of how we can know a thing and what that
                      > experience can be. It's like we have to avoid the magic and the
                      > atavistic clairvoyance and rely soley on ourselves our own ego. And I
                      > disagree with Stephen H. that Mikael wants us to 'think' we are doing
                      > it ourselves. He's not manipulative like that. And anyway ...well it
                      > doesn't matter I guess.... But the point is that as we work in these
                      > thoughts, along with the practice of the exercises given to us by
                      > Rudolf Steiner, we can really really know we are ensouled. Can you
                      > find that experience? And the problem for Anthros is that in one hand
                      > its like they want to make sure the mind is clean and clear but
                      > somewhere along the line they forget to interact personally,daily
                      > minutely with the spirit world. I mean we are in the spiritual
                      > worlds. We are not separate from it. We are in it, it is our home.
                      > And yet we continue to allow things to separate us from it.
                      >
                      > I mean, I keep asking for references from one of our brothers. And
                      > rarely did I get them. Now, I wasn't asking to be mean or
                      > confrontational or whathave you but I felt like what was being
                      > shared, and in the manner it was being shared, was not a real
                      > experience but was rather a book experience being passed off as a
                      > real spiritual experience. Now, that is not to say anything bad about
                      > the brother rather it is to push for the intimate interaction with
                      > the spirit world, the coming to how we can know a thing, verses
                      > repeating a thing or thinking a thing. I mean when I can find the
                      > references of this brother in a book, and realize that 'yes, it is
                      > book read and not an actual spiritual experience' we have a problem.
                      > Because in a way this brother seems to be partially decieving
                      > himself. Now the book reading may lead to a real experience but my
                      > experience is that many stop at the book, divine into how it can be
                      > true and move on down the line. And in my mind that is decieving
                      > oneself.
                      >
                      > So, do you let yourself feel your angels? Do you know how to do that?
                      > Do you know that you are surrounded by not only your angel but those
                      > of others as well? Do you let yourself stand in front of someone and
                      > realize that your angel is hanging out with the other persons angel
                      > and you've had some agreement and then think to what it is? Do you
                      > let yourself get above yourself and interact with what you call
                      > Mother Mary, I mean in a real tangible manner. And if you do,why do
                      > you try to contact her in the first place? What do you need from her?
                      > I mean, Gaelman, who is Christ? Really, who is Christ? Where the heck
                      > did this cat come from? It's frieken real. I mean I just saw Him
                      > referenced as El elyon? That is the God Most High. Does anyone know
                      > what that really means or do we just think of Christ, and feel him
                      > and wanna be like him and take him on and so forth? It's not good
                      > enough for me at this point to just 'know' Christ in the manner
                      > everyone else does or so appears to me. I have questions. Who are
                      > you? I mean I get what everyone says of Him, I know what I feel of
                      > Him, but I want to know Him. Not just know Him but KNOW HIM!!! Man
                      > that cats got to be real in front of me for me to truly do his work.
                      > It's not like in the old days, we are called to a new relationship
                      > with Christ. Changes are about and we are sowing the seeds for the
                      > next epoch and we need to be open to the experience of the Christ
                      > verses us controlling what we can know and what we can not know.
                      >
                      > My point in how we come to know a thing whether it be through magic
                      > or old ways is a big one to me. We are right to let them go but even
                      > though they are here, and they are present, we have to ground the
                      > experiences in the works you mentioned of Rudolf Steiner such as POF
                      > etc. But this does not disinclude (dottie word I guess)experience of
                      > the spiritual beings who work with us. If anything it helps us to
                      > clarify our experiences. And these experiences are not just in
                      > thought, mind thought, they are in the heart thought that turns into
                      > an experience with the spiritual world which is our home, which is
                      > our nature.
                      >
                      > It might be nice to suggest a two week experience of rising to the
                      > spirit world around us and note what our experiences are. I mean
                      > they will just start showing up when you acknowledge them past your
                      > thinking mind. Your whole body, all your senses will come to an
                      > understanding. It's kinda like what our teacher said in the final
                      > days of the Christmas Conference: you got to feel it down to your
                      > fingertips, all your senses, let your self feel it to your
                      > fingertips'.
                      >
                      > All good things to you Gaelman,
                      > d
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > > Dottie and Dan: I've enjoyed your exchange...two people trying to
                      > > understand aspects of spiritual science without writing things in
                      > > stone as if they are in possession of deep occult truths...that is
                      > > students, like me.
                      > > Dottie, I really found your post, "Thoughts on bring it down"
                      > > interesting...I've read it a few times trying to see things that we
                      > > have in common in so far as raw understanding is concerned...and I
                      > > always make the attempt (well, maybe not always) to put what I seem
                      > to
                      > > understand within the context of Steiner's epistomological works
                      > > (Theory of Knowledge, PoF, etc).
                      > > I don't think that "mental content" and "thinking" are
                      > synonymous...at
                      > > least not for me...people can read books and can have the content
                      > in
                      > > their minds...then forget that they read it and walk about under the
                      > > impression that they "know" it...it's my guess that political types
                      > do
                      > > that all the time...I suppose that those who read Steiner do that
                      > as well.
                      > > Sometimes the mental content from reading esoteric works can get a
                      > bit
                      > > rich, eh?...I suppose that's What Dan was referring to with
                      > the "head
                      > > in the anthill" allusion...that's when, for me, the Zen master's
                      > > admonition makes sense..."when you wash the dishes pay attention to
                      > > washing the dishes" and presumably not (among other things) what the
                      > > spiritual hierarchies intend for you.
                      > > Dottie, I was struck by your "I am in a constant state of living in
                      > > these thoughts or these thoughts living in me" as well as
                      > Val's "it's
                      > > the thought that counts"...I particularly interested in
                      > the "constant
                      > > state" aspect of it...you're alluding to what you experience and I
                      > > try to relate it to what I experience...for me, sometimes it's
                      > > thinking and sometimes it's just mental content...regards, Gaelman
                      > >
                      >
                    • gaelman58
                      Dan: We are all just students and each of us has had our own personal experiences. Your life experiences are just as good as mine. I don t think real
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jan 10, 2006
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                        Dan: We are all just students and each of us has had our own personal
                        experiences. Your life experiences are just as good as mine. I don't
                        think real knowledge comes from reading. You know only what you
                        experience...best regards, Gaelman

                        Oh yes, what does "no-limb land Romania" mean?





                        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "nadmateescu"
                        <nadmateescu@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Gaelman,
                        >
                        > I saw that Dottie explained her's state of spirit regarding
                        > the "living thoughts". About the "mental content" of course,I
                        > recieved a lot of these remarks from my friends, at my time that I
                        > was trying to explain some things to me (allways an inner experience
                        > left you much more I said - with an inner suffering, a tremendous
                        > feeling of "pain-soul of knowledge" - but on this inner suffering is
                        > based the spiritual knowledge process. But that is what Dottie
                        > explained when she was asking us about the angel personal relation.
                        > The organism that is thinking in this high process, developing
                        > imaginations that you will find as answers in your inner-deep-soul
                        > is this being who brings to you closer - your higher self in the way
                        > of complete to Mannas.
                        > If you understand what I am saing, that somehow also my sleep-
                        > consciousness had changed.
                        > And in fact the world of thoughts is perfect of what Steiner said
                        > that "the head in the anthill"; it seems hard to find yourself in
                        > this all-conected-with realm.The Mother-Ideas ...
                        > So, for me, somehow it's better to hold Anthroposophia's hand - the
                        > writtings of Rudolf Steiner that in my searchings are connected now
                        > also, with Sophia-Joan mysteries
                        > And yes, of course, some mysteries regarding the sixth epoch is
                        > somehow "floating" in our imaginations, and somehow these inner-
                        > feelings are "stoned" and captured in writting.
                        >
                        > I'm sure that you all knew this. For me, it's quite new.:-)
                        >
                        > Best regards from no-limb land Romania ;-), Dan
                        >
                        > P.s. I trying with all my unperfectioned english to put in my heart,
                        > all the content of the true Anthroposophia's archangelic words as
                        > Val and holderlin66' thoughts.
                        > Thanks again, Dan
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "gaelman58"
                        > <gaelman58@y...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Dottie and Dan: I've enjoyed your exchange...two people trying to
                        > > understand aspects of spiritual science without writing things in
                        > > stone as if they are in possession of deep occult truths...that is
                        > > students, like me.
                        > > Dottie, I really found your post, "Thoughts on bring it down"
                        > > interesting...I've read it a few times trying to see things that we
                        > > have in common in so far as raw understanding is concerned...and I
                        > > always make the attempt (well, maybe not always) to put what I
                        > seem to
                        > > understand within the context of Steiner's epistomological works
                        > > (Theory of Knowledge, PoF, etc).
                        > > I don't think that "mental content" and "thinking" are
                        > synonymous...at
                        > > least not for me...people can read books and can have the content
                        > in
                        > > their minds...then forget that they read it and walk about under
                        > the
                        > > impression that they "know" it...it's my guess that political
                        > types do
                        > > that all the time...I suppose that those who read Steiner do that
                        > as well.
                        > > Sometimes the mental content from reading esoteric works can get a
                        > bit
                        > > rich, eh?...I suppose that's What Dan was referring to with
                        > the "head
                        > > in the anthill" allusion...that's when, for me, the Zen master's
                        > > admonition makes sense..."when you wash the dishes pay attention to
                        > > washing the dishes" and presumably not (among other things) what
                        > the
                        > > spiritual hierarchies intend for you.
                        > > Dottie, I was struck by your "I am in a constant state of living in
                        > > these thoughts or these thoughts living in me" as well as
                        > Val's "it's
                        > > the thought that counts"...I particularly interested in
                        > the "constant
                        > > state" aspect of it...you're alluding to what you experience and I
                        > > try to relate it to what I experience...for me, sometimes it's
                        > > thinking and sometimes it's just mental content...regards, Gaelman
                        > >
                        >
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