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Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] ok, along with all the other reads given on this list....

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  • Tarjei Straume
    ... Wait a minute. You re full of naive realism as in PoF? I did a double take when I saw that and just had to look up the following: The naïve man, who
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 1 1:48 PM
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      At 21:56 01.03.2005, Heather wrote:

      >As in PoF, I am full of naive realism and am not even knowing when, or
      >just what I put between myself and the world I am in, the world I view.
      >Never knowing the 'true nature' of thinking, the true nature of thinking.

      Wait a minute. You're full of naive realism as in PoF? I did a double take
      when I saw that and just had to look up the following:

      "The naïve man, who acknowledges as real only what he can see with his eyes
      and grasp with his hands, requires for his moral life, also, a basis for
      action that shall be perceptible to the senses. He requires someone or
      something to impart the basis for his action to him in a way that his
      senses can understand. He is ready to allow this basis for action to be
      dictated to him as commandments by any man whom he considers wiser or more
      powerful than himself, or whom he acknowledges for some other reason to be
      a power over him. In this way there arise, as moral principles, the
      authority of family, state, society, church and God, as previously
      described. A man who is very narrow minded still puts his faith in some one
      person; the more advanced man allows his moral conduct to be dictated by a
      majority (state, society). It is always on perceptible powers that he
      builds. The man who awakens at last to the conviction that basically these
      powers are human beings as weak as himself, seeks guidance from a higher
      power, from a Divine Being, whom he endows, however, with sense perceptible
      features. He conceives this Being as communicating to him the conceptual
      content of his moral life, again in a perceptible way - whether it be, for
      example, that God appears in the burning bush, or that He moves about among
      men in manifest human shape, and that their ears can hear Him telling them
      what to do and what not to do."
      (- Die Philosophie der Freiheit 1894, GA #4: kap. 10: Freiheitsphilosophie
      und Monismus.)

      Is this you, Heather? Do you require someone or something to impart the
      basis for your action to you in a way that your senses can understand, and
      are you ready to allow this basis for action to be dictated to you as
      commandments by any person whom you consider wiser or more powerful than
      yourself, or whom you acknowledge for some other reason to be a power over
      you? Do you build your moral principles on the authority of family, state,
      society, church and God?

      Tarjei
    • heather
      ... when, or ... view. ... thinking. ... double take ... his eyes ... basis for ... or ... his ... to be ... or more ... reason to be ... some one ... dictated
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 1 7:01 PM
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        Tarjei wrote:
        > At 21:56 01.03.2005, Heather wrote:
        >
        > >As in PoF, I am full of naive realism and am not even knowing
        when, or
        > >just what I put between myself and the world I am in, the world I
        view.
        > >Never knowing the 'true nature' of thinking, the true nature of
        thinking.
        >
        > Wait a minute. You're full of naive realism as in PoF? I did a
        double take
        > when I saw that and just had to look up the following:
        >
        > "The naïve man, who acknowledges as real only what he can see with
        his eyes
        > and grasp with his hands, requires for his moral life, also, a
        basis for
        > action that shall be perceptible to the senses. He requires someone
        or
        > something to impart the basis for his action to him in a way that
        his
        > senses can understand. He is ready to allow this basis for action
        to be
        > dictated to him as commandments by any man whom he considers wiser
        or more
        > powerful than himself, or whom he acknowledges for some other
        reason to be
        > a power over him. In this way there arise, as moral principles, the
        > authority of family, state, society, church and God, as previously
        > described. A man who is very narrow minded still puts his faith in
        some one
        > person; the more advanced man allows his moral conduct to be
        dictated by a
        > majority (state, society). It is always on perceptible powers that
        he
        > builds. The man who awakens at last to the conviction that
        basically these
        > powers are human beings as weak as himself, seeks guidance from a
        higher
        > power, from a Divine Being, whom he endows, however, with sense
        perceptible
        > features. He conceives this Being as communicating to him the
        conceptual
        > content of his moral life, again in a perceptible way - whether it
        be, for
        > example, that God appears in the burning bush, or that He moves
        about among
        > men in manifest human shape, and that their ears can hear Him
        telling them
        > what to do and what not to do."
        > (- Die Philosophie der Freiheit 1894, GA #4: kap. 10:
        Freiheitsphilosophie
        > und Monismus.)
        >
        > Is this you, Heather? Do you require someone or something to impart
        the
        > basis for your action to you in a way that your senses can
        understand, and
        > are you ready to allow this basis for action to be dictated to you
        as
        > commandments by any person whom you consider wiser or more powerful
        than
        > yourself, or whom you acknowledge for some other reason to be a
        power over
        > you? Do you build your moral principles on the authority of family,
        state,
        > society, church and God?
        >
        > Tarjei

        *****This is killing my head, I love it but sheesh!!!!! Right, I
        don't require someone to dictate and give me commandments (heck, I
        could even do this as a kid in church)
        My desire is to have a clearer understanding of the pathways of my
        thinking, whatever those pathways may be doing. When I sit and the
        answers don't come then I wonder what (where)is the leap in thinking,
        which I can sometimes 'feel' but cannot articulate. I become 'lost'
        in thought and therefore feel unable (not naive, I see the difference
        now Taz. God I wish I could hug you for this!) to stay within those
        moments of my thoughts, watching what is happening and taking mental
        notes. Yes, practice, practice, I'm sure.
        However, most days you guys put this grand stuff on the table, day
        after day, effortlessly and all enjoying the feast.....I just don't
        think I am digesting, just burping!
        Anyway, thank you, I can't wait to sleep on this!!
        Night, Heather
      • heather
        ... *****^ please read couldn t I drove the folks at church crazy, actually. I would ask them to prove these bible stories to be true, and I told them I
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 1 7:34 PM
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          , "heather" wrote:
          >

          >
          > *****This is killing my head, I love it but sheesh!!!!! Right, I
          > don't require someone to dictate and give me commandments (heck, I
          > could even do this as a kid in church)
          *****^ please read "couldn't"
          I drove the folks at church crazy, actually. I would ask them to
          prove these bible stories to be true, and I told them I wouldn't
          believe in God until I had proof he really existed. I think they only
          let me stay because I was the youngest soprano (about 8)they had who
          could sing on key.
          Getting sleepy:)
          bye
        • Mike helsher
          Tarjei wrote: Do you build your moral principles on the authority of family, ... Thanks for your honesty Heather. I smiled when I read that. I remember
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 2 8:46 AM
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            Tarjei wrote:

            <snip>Do you build your moral principles on the authority of family,
            > state,
            > > society, church and God?
            > >
            > > Tarjei
            >
            And heather answered:

            > *****This is killing my head, I love it but sheesh!!!!!

            Thanks for your honesty Heather. I smiled when I read that. I
            remember getting to a point where I asked myself:

            "Why does thinking seem so strenious?" I mean, does it actually
            require allot of physical effort? Why do I feel tired after trying
            to think about noble thoughts? You'ld think that I was going to the
            gym and bench pressing 400 lbs or something, every time I had to
            think about something worth thinking about....


            Right, I
            > don't require someone to dictate and give me commandments (heck, I
            > could even do this as a kid in church)
            > My desire is to have a clearer understanding of the pathways of my
            > thinking, whatever those pathways may be doing. When I sit and the
            > answers don't come then I wonder what (where)is the leap in
            thinking,
            > which I can sometimes 'feel' but cannot articulate. I
            become 'lost'
            > in thought and therefore feel unable (not naive, I see the
            difference
            > now Taz. God I wish I could hug you for this!) to stay within
            those
            > moments of my thoughts, watching what is happening and taking
            mental
            > notes. Yes, practice, practice, I'm sure.
            > However, most days you guys put this grand stuff on the table, day
            > after day, effortlessly and all enjoying the feast.....I just
            don't
            > think I am digesting, just burping!
            > Anyway, thank you, I can't wait to sleep on this!!
            > Night, Heather

            Well, a really loud burp can stirr up allot of attention ay! Just
            think if you let one fly (preferrably after some good mexican food)
            on a crowded elevator!!!

            Now, lets apply some "thinking with the power of Love, in spiritual
            form" to this situation. You don't know anyone on the elevator.
            First off, your body just doesn't care, and will rebel in the form
            of some sort of pain if you don't adhear to it's demands. Now, your
            soul, much depending on your biography, will have all sorts of inner
            workings in this particular situation, swinging between self hatred,
            to embarresment, to pride. But if we stop to let what thinks in us,
            have some space, I'm thinking that our response to this interesting
            situation would be something like:

            "BUUUUURRRRRRPPPPP" [wide eyed look on face during moment of
            reflection]

            "Wow! did you hear that! woah, man, that was a good one...gotta
            love that Mexican food man!"

            Ok, let's exit the elevator.

            In all seriousness, the bazillion dollar anthroposophical question
            for me, is:

            "What is thinking?"

            And recently, something that has helped calm my terbulant soul with
            answers to this elusive question, has been another tough question:

            "What is time?"

            Thanks for your input Heather.

            Mike
          • Jennifer
            This brings to mind a time when I was sitting beside a lake, very peaceful, ducks waddling around, birds flying, birdsounds, ducksounds, ... okay, you get the
            Message 5 of 6 , Mar 2 12:20 PM
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              This brings to mind a time when I was sitting beside a lake, very
              peaceful, ducks waddling around, birds flying, birdsounds,
              ducksounds, ... okay, you get the picture. A serene place, a PERFECT
              place to collect and ruminate upon one's thoughts, right? Well, I was
              sitting there reading a book (don't remember which one because this
              was years ago, but the memory still stands out) and it just wasn't
              making sense! I'd read, then reread, then finally closed the book in
              frustration. Well, what I finally figured out was that the problem
              was in the fact that I had forgotten what had been said previously
              and because of this, the present text was making no sense at all. I
              opened the book again and turned back a few pages and began reading
              again, from the beginning of the chapter. The part that eluded me
              before now made sense! So, if you (not necessarily you personally but
              any individual) are having trouble thinking about something, perhaps
              it's because you don't have enough information to make the concept
              come together in a coherent way.

              Jennifer

              Mike helsher wrote:

              > "Why does thinking seem so strenious?" I mean, does it actually
              > require allot of physical effort? Why do I feel tired after trying
              > to think about noble thoughts? You'ld think that I was going to the
              > gym and bench pressing 400 lbs or something, every time I had to
              > think about something worth thinking about....
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