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Steiner on initiation, seership, magic

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  • Stephen Clarke
    Although this passage raises as many questions as it answers eg: are the three methods separate paths or sequential stages ?), it may bear on previous
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 23, 2005
      Although this passage raises as many questions as it answers eg: are
      the three methods separate paths or sequential stages ?), it may bear
      on previous discussions of shamanism.

      FWIW:


      Christopher Bamford, in his note no. 2 to Lecture Two of Harrison's
      series in The Transcendental Universe (p. 198):

      Here again Harrison gives evidence of knowledge. This description is
      similar to that given by Rudolf Steiner in an unpublished lecture of
      October 21, 1907 (available in typescript from Anthroposophical
      Libraries). Steiner says that "in all earlier occult schools there
      were three ways of mounting to the highest regions of perception. The
      first was that of initiation; the second, that of clairvoyance; the
      third, that of magic." He then distinguishes the initiate, the seer,
      and the magician in a similar way to Harrison. Clairvoyants see,
      discover; but do not necessarily understand. Initiates do not
      necessarily "see," but they understand "the facts and laws of the
      higher worlds." The magician must again be distinguished from both the
      clairvoyant and the initiate - "the magician or adept is the man who
      understands how to use here on earth those higher forces of which all
      physical happenings are the expression, who can bring not only
      physical forces to his aid but can also call upon higher spiritual
      forces. . . . To the magician belongs not only clairvoyance, not only
      initiation, but also practice."

      Stephen
    • dottie zold
      ... The ... the ... all ... only ... Hey Stephen, I like that. And it makes sense. It would seem a hard concept for many of the Doctors students to hold onto
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 28, 2005
        Stephen C:
        > Christopher Bamford, in his note no. 2 to Lecture Two of Harrison's
        > series in The Transcendental Universe (p. 198):
        >
        > Here again Harrison gives evidence of knowledge. This description is
        > similar to that given by Rudolf Steiner in an unpublished lecture of
        > October 21, 1907 (available in typescript from Anthroposophical
        > Libraries). Steiner says that "in all earlier occult schools there
        > were three ways of mounting to the highest regions of perception.
        The
        > first was that of initiation; the second, that of clairvoyance; the
        > third, that of magic." He then distinguishes the initiate, the seer,
        > and the magician in a similar way to Harrison. Clairvoyants see,
        > discover; but do not necessarily understand. Initiates do not
        > necessarily "see," but they understand "the facts and laws of the
        > higher worlds." The magician must again be distinguished from both
        the
        > clairvoyant and the initiate - "the magician or adept is the man who
        > understands how to use here on earth those higher forces of which
        all
        > physical happenings are the expression, who can bring not only
        > physical forces to his aid but can also call upon higher spiritual
        > forces. . . . To the magician belongs not only clairvoyance, not
        only
        > initiation, but also practice."

        Hey Stephen,

        I like that. And it makes sense. It would seem a hard concept for
        many of the Doctors students to hold onto as they don't seem to trust
        one another in the experiential realm let along the 'using of the
        higher forces' realm. And then again, for me, it really is a 'man
        know thyself' kind of thing. It is so easy to get lost in that world
        as you know and it takes so much concentration and perseverance to
        ovecome all that will be thrown at one. It's a very difficult path to
        undertake in the manner of a Dr. Steiner. And another point, and one
        of contention for me, is the idea of when or why to utelize such a
        gift. The idea of not changing a thing for a certain reason comes
        into play. So, then, why would someone want to utelize this method
        other than to grow further along the path would seem to be a question
        for me. And to find a man who has not want but to share this
        knowledge, and hopefully in full consciousness, for naught but ones
        growth is a hard man to find. Imo.

        All good things,
        Dottie
      • adm_anthroposophia
        Hi Steven, Do you have access to the typescript of the Steiner lecture you refer to. As you allready know it is: 1907-10-21 12:00 White Magic Contrasted with
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 1, 2005
          Hi Steven,

          Do you have access to the typescript of the Steiner lecture you refer
          to. As you allready know it is:

          1907-10-21 12:00
          White Magic Contrasted with Black
          Berlin

          1907-10-21 16:00
          White Magic Contrasted with Black
          Berlin

          The eLib of Steiner doesn't have it and I don't have access to any
          other good libraries..

          Maybe you can be of a help.

          Thanks
        • Stephen Clarke
          ... Nope, fraid not - and thanx for the explicit references, which I did _not_ have. Now that you cite the name of the lecture-cycle, I recall reading it
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 1, 2005
            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "adm_anthroposophia"
            <anthroposophia@g...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Steven,
            >
            > Do you have access to the typescript of the Steiner lecture you refer
            > to. As you allready know it is:
            >
            > 1907-10-21 12:00
            > White Magic Contrasted with Black
            > Berlin
            >
            > 1907-10-21 16:00
            > White Magic Contrasted with Black
            > Berlin
            >
            > The eLib of Steiner doesn't have it and I don't have access to any
            > other good libraries..
            >
            > Maybe you can be of a help.


            Nope, 'fraid not - and thanx for the explicit references, which I did
            _not_ have. Now that you cite the name of the lecture-cycle, I recall
            reading it elsewhere; other than in the footnote for Harrison's book;
            so the typscript does exist somehwere.... But I cannot recall the
            circumstances of where and how I came across it. Sorry.

            Stephen
          • Jo Ann Schwartz
            If you are in North America, you can always try: Rudolf Steiner Library 65 Fern Hill Road Ghent, N.Y. 12075 Phone: (518) 672-7690 Fax: (518) 672-5827 E-mail:
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 3, 2005
              If you are in North America, you can always try:

              Rudolf Steiner Library
              65 Fern Hill Road Ghent, N.Y. 12075
              Phone: (518) 672-7690
              Fax: (518) 672-5827
              E-mail: rsteinerlibrary at taconic dot net

              These folks are amazingly helpful at tracking down the typescripts of obscure
              lectures only published in "News for Members" or other society newsletters.

              Cheers,
              JoAnn
              librarian-at-large



              "adm_anthroposophia" wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Steven,
              > >
              > > Do you have access to the typescript of the Steiner lecture you refer
              > > to. As you allready know it is:
              > >
              > > 1907-10-21 12:00
              > > White Magic Contrasted with Black
              > > Berlin
              > >
              > > 1907-10-21 16:00
              > > White Magic Contrasted with Black
              > > Berlin
              > >
              > > The eLib of Steiner doesn't have it and I don't have access to any
              > > other good libraries..
              > >
              > > Maybe you can be of a help.
              >
              Stephen replied:
              > Nope, 'fraid not - and thanx for the explicit references, which I did
              > _not_ have. Now that you cite the name of the lecture-cycle, I recall
              > reading it elsewhere; other than in the footnote for Harrison's book;
              > so the typscript does exist somehwere.... But I cannot recall the
              > circumstances of where and how I came across it. Sorry.
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