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Re: Ph.of Freedom - shamans journey

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  • shireesatsing
    And a man said, Speak to us of Self-Knowledge. And he answered, saying: Your hearts know in silence the secrets of the days and the nights. But your ears
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 1, 2005
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      And a man said, "Speak to us of Self-Knowledge."

      And he answered, saying:

      Your hearts know in silence the secrets of the days and the nights.

      But your ears thirst for the sound of your heart's knowledge.

      You would know in words that which you have always know in thought.

      You would touch with your fingers the naked body of your dreams.

      And it is well you should.

      The hidden well-spring of your soul must needs rise and run
      murmuring to the sea;

      And the treasure of your infinite depths would be revealed to your
      eyes.

      But let there be no scales to weigh your unknown treasure;

      And seek not the depths of your knowledge with staff or sounding
      line.

      For self is a sea boundless and measureless.

      Say not, "I have found the truth," but rather, "I have found a
      truth."

      Say not, "I have found the path of the soul." Say rather, "I have
      met the soul walking upon my path."

      For the soul walks upon all paths.

      The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed.

      The soul unfolds itself, like a lotus of countless petals.
































      .
    • Mike helsher
      ... is a ... might try ... France, in the cathar country. You might have heard about it. There have been some questions and observations about Mary Magdala on
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 1, 2005
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        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Knaak" <mi-
        chael@w...> wrote:
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Mike helsher
        >
        > Wow, Your asking some huge questions. Going along for the ride
        is a
        > bit different than driving ay? Sounds like something that I
        might try
        > after living, studying, and practicing alone in the woods for a
        > couple of months.
        >
        > Yes, I did that. I left central Europe to live here in Southern
        France, in the cathar country. You might have heard about it. There
        have been some questions and observations about Mary Magdala on this
        list.
        > Here, her story is well known and lives, sort of in the woods,
        the rocks - the elements.
        > After hearing and studying so much - I came to this country
        here, on my own, just to find my own doorway to things.
        > Right now, I have almost read the Ph.o.Freedom and I will
        immediately start to read it anew. Sort of trying to find the right
        path through it - although it's very much linked to thinking, I like
        to take it like in a kind of shamanistic way. For a shaman, in
        understand, it's this process of entering a whole and going for a
        journey finding your power animal etc. So, what I'm interested in:
        where is this kind of whole within the Ph.o.Freedom. And as I
        mentioned it yesterday, I have the suspicion (is that english?) it's
        there, where you have to do something different with your thoughts,
        than what usually happens. That seems to be me an important moment,
        where one gains strength of overcome ahrimanic thought patterns.
        > So I was wondering, if there is anyone here - having done this
        journey already and could share some practical advice....

        As Dottie always says...Whew!

        There in might lie the eternal moment. Seems to me that ahrimanic
        thought patterns are mostly lineal, where everything sort of adds up
        in what looks like a logical fashion. I call them "logical
        Phallicies" with which we usually depict some kind
        of "charactoroligical disposition" for ourselves, if we are even
        prone to thinking about such things. This is face to face with the
        lesser guardian for me, and perhaps this idea of "doing something
        different with your thoughts" for some, requires focused attention
        on the transformation of this self created aspect of ourselves.
        This requires effort and courage and above all reverence, which is
        different kind of thinking for allot of us. My maya definately
        varies form yours though. The marrige of Cana depicts Christ turning
        water into wine. For me the wine has been slowly and painfully been
        turned into water, and it took a bit more that just cash register
        honesty to kick start this process. KHW blew my socks off cause it
        really puts the spotlight where it belongs, I think. "The kingdom of
        heaven is within you."

        I know allot about my own ignorance and arrogance, and sometimes I
        sling a bit of it in the faces of those that I suspect are coming
        form a similar place in their own souls. Again - My maya.

        I suspect that Harvey and Bradford and many others on this list
        might have deeper insights and practical experience to share, but I
        don't think that they would put it in the form of advice.

        I am still trying to understand a post that harvey wrote last year
        adn that I put up on my web site,

        http://www.freewebs.com/thefishercat/

        click on "heresy" at the top of the page or just scroll down. To me
        this message really speaks to what I think your talking about.

        I also wrote "the sea of Love" when thinking like I've never thought
        before (sounds a bit like star trek ay?) that is at the end bottom
        of the page. Wierd for me because I have never written anything like
        that before.

        >
        >
        >
        > Right now I'm in Florida trying to earn up some cold cash, so
        that I
        > can go home to my family in Flagstaff AZ. and not have to worry
        about
        > money for a while.
        > It must be very cold out there - isn't it close to the Hopi etc
        country?
        > Good day, to you
        > michael

        There are lots of reservations around Flagstaff, not sure if Hpoi is
        one of them.

        It does get cold there, but not like it did in New Hampshire. It
        will snow sometimes but then the Sun will melt it all away. I think
        there are about 300 on average sunny days a year out there and the
        air is dry for the most part. Not like here in florida where the
        humidity can be stifling at times.

        The Grand Canyon is a couple of hours away, and then there is Sedona
        about an hour south. Both always take my breath away. Flagstaff is
        at 7000 feet elevation and I found it hard to breath till I got used
        to it. Neat thing is that we can drive a couple hours south and
        experience a 20 to 30 degree difference in warmth. So we're not as
        trapped by the cold like we were in NH.

        Speaking of Sedona: Before I came to FL about a month ago, one of
        our wonderful list mates went there recently and came up to
        Flagstaff to visit another member of this list and didn't even come
        to visit me.... :( [sound of elbow in the side, and look of shit
        eating grin on my face]

        All the best

        Mike
      • Michael Knaak
        ... From: Mike helsher To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 10:15 PM Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Ph.of Freedom
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 2, 2005
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          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 10:15 PM
          Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Ph.of Freedom - shamans journey



          There in might lie the eternal moment. Seems to me that ahrimanic
          thought patterns are mostly lineal, where everything sort of adds up
          in what looks like a logical fashion. I call them "logical
          Phallicies" with which we usually depict some kind
          of "charactoroligical disposition" for ourselves, if we are even
          prone to thinking about such things. This is face to face with the
          lesser guardian for me, and perhaps this idea of "doing something
          different with your thoughts" for some, requires focused attention
          on the transformation of this self created aspect of ourselves.
          Hello Mike -  what I have noticed in re-reading the PhoF is, that Ahriman is attacked by the way, Steiner is guiding you through this "architecture". Although german is my mother tongue and I can read the original without problem, it's tough to follow every sentence - because it demands  constant focus - and  maybe that's an important element, to stop him interfering.
          By a couple of elements, I found myself suddenly capable to a certain degree of transforming this self created aspect of ourselves.
          This requires effort and courage and above all reverence, which is 
          different kind of thinking for allot of us.
          Yesterday I finished the last chapters of PhoF and I just love it. My soul felt always related to certain warriors - but I never was able to bring the anthroposophical aspect and the warrior aspect together. For the first time, I realize, that PhoF incarnates the spiritual warrior. In deeper contemplation about thinking, feeling and willing - we learn, that willing rises up, enters the thoughts, I suppose transforms the old patterns, thus the spirit world can enter.
          And again: here comes the "demand" that thinking about the thinking process opens a door.
          Now I wonder, what that is. Obviously it's the door, Steiner could enter - and this is a process that everyone could do today, doesn't need a special initiation.... - but if I look around, reading books by anthroposophical authors, talking to "well educated" anthroposophists, they usually answer me in a way, which I identify as everyday thinking that adds spiritual information to it.
          But is that, what Steiner talks about? Or is this a problem, that stops the unfolding of the being Sophia/Michael (etc) ?
           
          My maya definately
          varies form yours though.
          What do you mean by -maya-?
          ......"The kingdom of heaven is within you."  : that is the meassage of the PhoFreedom.

          I know allot about my own ignorance and arrogance, and sometimes I
          sling a bit of it in the faces of those that I suspect are coming
          form a similar place in their own souls. Again - My maya.

          I suspect that Harvey and Bradford and many others on this list
          might have deeper insights and practical experience to share, but I
          don't think that they would put it in the form of advice.
          I'll watch out ....

          I am still trying to understand a post that harvey wrote last year
          adn that I put up on my web site,

          http://www.freewebs.com/thefishercat/

          click on "heresy" at the top of the page or just scroll down. To me
          this message really speaks to what I think your talking about.
          Thank you - I will do that as soon as possible.

          Heard a lot about Sedona - and Grand Canyon must be sacred too.
          I visited the Black Hills SD - that's the only region I know in the US.
          Did you just use drugs "for fun" ( I read some of your other e-mail) or did you work with it?
          mmmm we've got 300 and more sunny days, too.
          michael
           
        • Mike helsher
          ... that Ahriman is attacked by the way, Steiner is guiding you through this architecture . Although german is my mother tongue and I can read the original
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 2, 2005
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            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Knaak" <mi-
            chael@w...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Mike - what I have noticed in re-reading the PhoF is,
            that Ahriman is attacked by the way, Steiner is guiding you through
            this "architecture". Although german is my mother tongue and I can
            read the original without problem, it's tough to follow every
            sentence - because it demands constant focus - and maybe that's an
            important element, to stop him interfering.

            I think so. Every time that I read through the POF I sense a
            different kind of thinking being nurtured in me. The demands on my
            focus and attention are high. I think that thhinking "with the power
            of love, in spiritual form" is definately a hinderance to the normal
            ahrimanic thinking.

            You know, I am really considering learning how to read German, so
            that I can ponder Steiner in hsi native language.

            > By a couple of elements, I found myself suddenly capable to a
            certain degree of transforming this self created aspect of ourselves.


            > This requires effort and courage and above all reverence, which
            is
            > different kind of thinking for allot of us.
            >

            Yesterday I finished the last chapters of PhoF and I just love it.
            My soul felt always related to certain warriors - but I never was
            able to bring the anthroposophical aspect and the warrior aspect
            together. For the first time, I realize, that PhoF incarnates the
            spiritual warrior. In deeper contemplation about thinking, feeling
            and willing - we learn, that willing rises up, enters the thoughts,
            I suppose transforms the old patterns, thus the spirit world can
            enter.
            > And again: here comes the "demand" that thinking about the
            thinking process opens a door.
            > Now I wonder, what that is. Obviously it's the door, Steiner
            could enter - and this is a process that everyone could do today,
            doesn't need a special initiation.... - but if I look around,
            reading books by anthroposophical authors, talking to "well
            educated" anthroposophists, they usually answer me in a way, which I
            identify as everyday thinking that adds spiritual information to it.
            > But is that, what Steiner talks about? Or is this a problem,
            that stops the unfolding of the being Sophia/Michael (etc) ?

            I often wonder about patience. And vigilance. I have faith in the
            idea that with the right attitude and effort, that we will all find
            what it is that we are looking for - when we least expect it.
            >
            > My maya definately
            > varies form yours though.

            > What do you mean by -maya-?

            My personal biographical illusions about reality.

            >> ......"The kingdom of heaven is within you." :

            >that is the meassage of the PhoFreedom.

            I agree. I've also heard that the POF is in a sense a re-writing
            of "the Gospel of St. John."



            > Did you just use drugs "for fun" ( I read some of your other e-
            mail) or did you work with it?

            Well, I'm certianly working with in now, in that I have a rich bed
            of tilled soil from which to grow from. And no I wouldn't say that I
            used drugs for fun. I mostly used them to escape pain.

            > mmmm we've got 300 and more sunny days, too.
            > michael

            Sound like a nice place that your in. I forgot to comment on you
            saying that the Magdalene was in the soil, so to speak. I've heard
            lots of stuff like that about sedona too.

            all the best

            Mike
          • Frank Thomas Smith
            You know, I am really considering learning how to read German, so that I can ponder Steiner in hsi native language. Good luck - it s pretty difficult. But for
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 3, 2005
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              You know, I am really considering learning how to read German, so
              that I can ponder Steiner in hsi native language.
              Good luck - it's pretty difficult. But for understanding Steiners teaching it might be worthwhile. Sometimes its hard for me to understand, how Steiners german can be translated. He often uses phrases which we wouldn't use like that today - but I'll guess, that's where spiritual thinking enters the language.

              This may surprise some people, but imo a good translation is easier to understand that Steiner's original, because the translator will avoid archaic words and expressions and do his/her best to make Steiner's sometimes tortuously long and convoluted sentences clear. Speaking of PhoF, Michael Wilson's translation is a good example of this where, just as an example, he uses "mental picture" for "Vorstellung", instead of the literal "representation".
              Frank
            • Michael Knaak
              ... From: Mike helsher I think so. Every time that I read through the POF I sense a different kind of thinking being nurtured in me. The demands on my focus
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 3, 2005
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                ----- Original Message -----


                I think so. Every time that I read through the POF I sense a
                different kind of thinking being nurtured in me. The demands on my 
                focus and attention are high. I think that thhinking "with the power
                of love, in spiritual form" is definately a hinderance to the normal
                ahrimanic thinking.
                Isn't that great! I will re-read the POF in order to find a shorter way through it. As far as I remember, Steiner told students at the time, that the POF could/should be rewritten some decades later. Would be wonderful to concentrate the text to a kind of contemplation.

                You know, I am really considering learning how to read German, so
                that I can ponder Steiner in hsi native language.
                Good luck - it's pretty difficult. But for understanding Steiners teaching it might be worthwhile. Sometimes its hard for me to understand, how Steiners german can be translated. He often uses phrases which we wouldn't use like that today - but I'll guess, that's where spiritual thinking enters the language.



                I often wonder about patience. And vigilance. I have faith in the
                idea that with the right attitude and effort, that we will all find
                what it is that we are looking for - when we least expect it.
                 
                You're right. - This morning I tried it again. Took a word (Begriff) from a meditation and then I just activated my will in order to "travel" with the word. Were would it take me? So I experienced a lot of light, light-structure - but nothing I could understand in terms of words .... just mighty feelings.
                >
                >   My maya definately
                >   varies form yours though.

                >   What do you mean by -maya-?

                My personal biographical illusions about reality.
                Isn't that part of your own "program", your own wish to go through all of this, in order to gain strength? Would it thus be maya?



                I agree. I've also heard that the POF is in a sense a re-writing
                of "the Gospel of St. John."
                Wow - could you give me a hint, were I could find some more background.
                Last night I "found out", that spiritual thinking still is alive until puberty, sort of kind of a present from pre-earthly live. Thus education would be so important - that this element isn't killed, destroyed....



                Well, I'm certianly working with in now, in that I have a rich bed
                of tilled soil from which to grow from. And no I wouldn't say that I
                used drugs for fun. I mostly used them to escape pain.
                I thought, you might be involved with Don Juans teachings.


                >   mmmm we've got 300 and more sunny days, too.
                >   michael

                Sound like a nice place that your in.
                The Pyrenees (westwards they reach out to Santiago di Compostella)  have been spiritual "clean" for a long time. Thus the etheric is very rich and often unspoiled.
                 
                 I've heard
                lots of stuff like that about sedona too.
                Sedona initiation would take you through all the chakras, isn't it?

                all the best
                michael




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