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Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Lazarus/ John Salome

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  • dottie zold
    ... Dear Christine, You can not say my references do not come from the Bible because that is exactly where they come from. And I believe I was led to this
    Message 1 of 2 , Nov 11, 2003
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      Christine you wrote:
      > I don't mind you disagreeing with me or my
      > interpretations, but in this last
      > response, you have brought in a number of statements
      > that certainly don't come
      > from Steiner or even the Bible and you don't cite
      > references fully.

      Dear Christine,

      You can not say my references do not come from the
      Bible because that is exactly where they come from.
      And I believe I was led to this through Steiners work.
      I would never have thought out of my own mind that
      Lazarus was not Lazarus. And my references come from
      inner work from the outer work to begin with as far as
      I can tell. Could have been always within me but I am
      only aware of it from an outer to inner experience on
      a mental level.

      There are
      > a lot of "I believes" in it, not in the sense of "I
      > think that is what is
      > meant by what I am referring to." but in terms of a
      > personal belief system only.


      That may be your take on what I have said but that is
      not how it is within me. I don't have a strong
      personal belief of this is right and this is wrong
      type of personality. I have lived life to such an
      extent that I find there are so many mysteries and
      when one door of learning looks like it has been
      escavated there seems to be another door that has been
      found to go through.

      I have found my sources
      > and am preparing to
      > present them to you all.


      I have found my sources as well and they come from my
      interpretation of the words within the Bible as well
      as insights gleemed of Steiners work and the work I
      contemplate on. I did not expect that I would be
      having this conversation regarding Magdalene and my
      research inner and outer has been left to the way side
      a bit due to my film carreer, unfortunately.

      > To state categorically that John (interpret him as
      > you will) was not at the
      > foot of the cross and that Jesus did not say these
      > words

      I never said that Jesus did not say these words. I
      interpret them differently than you do.

      > John 19:25
      > Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother,
      > and his mother's sister,
      > Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
      > John 19:26
      > When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the
      > disciple standing by, whom he
      > loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy
      > son!


      He was talking about Magdalene as the disciple as best
      I can tell. Everything I have read and contemplated
      speaks to this for me, including the making of ALL
      disciples to become males. Magdalene had become male
      at this point in my opinion. She had become a rayer of
      Christlike love and that is why she could interpret
      the things the others could not. I think ChristJesus
      was also, (and here is where I would normally use the
      word belief as in a heart thing not in a mental belief
      system, or maybe it is better understood if I use the
      word, understand' instead of belief)calling out to the
      Heavens and Earth in a way that the Christ spirit was
      given over to the Mother Spirit.

      > This is the way John describes himself at the Last
      > Supper:
      > John 19:27
      > Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother!
      > And from that hour that
      > disciple took her unto his own [home].


      I interpret within the Christ spirit given up to the

      > John 13:23
      > Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his
      > disciples, whom Jesus loved.


      Do you see Magdalene at the table? I see her at the
      table. And whom would lean on Jesus bosom? I believe
      if you read the Nag Hammadi there is a clear
      understanding that the one whom Jesus loved the most
      and was most comfortable and was considered his
      companion was Magdalene. She had just washed the feet
      in which Jesus was to follow and complete in the

      > John 13:24
      > Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he
      > should ask who it should be of
      > whom he spake.


      Why wouldn't Peter have asked Jesus himself? He was
      right there. He was asking one who was much more
      intimately involved (and no I do not mean by sexual
      relations)than he or the others. Obviously if he asked
      the one who was leaning on Jesus bosom he could have
      asked Jesus as he was that close. I believe this
      passage speaks to the intimate loving relationship
      between the two.

      > Now, if you want to say that in both cases He is
      > referring to Mary Magdalene,
      > I will repeat what I said earlier that Mary
      > Magdalene is certainly intimately
      > bound with Lazarus/John and I will agree that she is
      > part of both pictures.
      > But to say that it was she INSTEAD of John, that he
      > wasn't there cannot be
      > correct exoterically or esoterically.


      Well, I guess I would have to know of what John you
      speak? John was not laying on his breast to the best
      of my inner work. Have you done the inner work on this
      in the sense that you were open to all possibilities?
      Its easy to say this cannot be exoterically or
      esoterically correct if you have not done the work on
      this particular piece. And I am not talking about
      'believing' what one has read or thought was true from
      reading and light interpretation according to agreeing
      what others have said.

      Again, I have to say this did not come to me easy in
      the sense that I just made it up. I was guided to each
      of these points through the spirit on a
      inspirational/intuitional level. To have just come up
      with an idea would never have occurred to me.

      Perhaps you
      > can't find Lazarus/ John because
      > you see Mary Magdalene so strongly and haven't
      > worked out how they are
      > connected.


      Well, I see Magdalene strongly because she has showed
      herself to me in a sense. However above all I am
      looking for the mystery not Dotties version of what
      the mystery is but the real mystery and what it means.
      I also know that there are many sides to this mystery.
      I don't understand Lazarus to be there in a physical
      form as a seperated human entity than Magdalene.

      I also understand that the John/Lazarus is actually
      John/Magdalene. In John we are speaking of John the
      Baptist who is already beheaded are we not? He
      interpenetrated all of the spirits after his death I
      believe Dr. Steiner tells it. (Don't know that for my
      self thought)

      Have you never thought of why they all wanted to kill
      Jesus specifically after this point? In my
      understanding of this it is an initiatory right of
      passege not the death as we know it. This practice was
      not uncommon among masters of faith. How are we
      supposing the other disciples who had reached certain
      levels of initiation had received them. The whole idea
      of holding a man under water until he could not
      breathe is also a part of this concept. It makes sense
      to me that they were outraged by it being a woman who
      was initiated. Have you never thought of why Martha
      went to see Jesus instead of Mary. It was Mary who sat
      at his feet and Martha who prepared the house. In this
      instance they have Mary 'sitting still' in the house.
      It is she who was always out and about with Jesus.
      What is this signifying to you?

      Also, I don't think that you will find
      > Lazarus as Lazarus anymore,
      > because he became John.

      Nope can't do that. You have to look Christine if you
      want to know of what I speak. If Lazarus was a true
      being you would be able to interconnect with this or
      at least have a 'feeling' for it. Can you say that you
      do other than what you have been told? Have you ever
      even thought to look and see? I'll bet no because it
      was not told before nor is it a natural thought to
      consider contemplating. However, if you spend time to
      see the mystery mystery of this story I believe you
      will either be able to see of what I speak or at least
      have a conversation with me about your thoughts on it.
      Your own thoughts.

      > John 11:5
      > Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.


      Why, is Magdalene not mentioned?

      > John 11:9
      > Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the
      > day? If any man walk in the
      > day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of
      > this world.
      > John 11:10
      > But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth,
      > because there is no light in
      > him.


      I understand this to be a direct reference to a Nag
      Hammadi quote regarding a question as to why Jesus
      love Mary more than them:

      Gospel of Phillip "As for Wisdom who is called "the
      barren" she is hte mother of the angels. Adn the
      companion of the Savior is Mary Magdalene. But Christ
      loved her more than all the disciples and used to kiss
      her on the mouth often. The rest of the disciples were
      offended by it and expressed disapproval. They said to
      him, "Why do you love her more than all of us? The
      savior answered and said to them, "Why do I not love
      you like her? When a blind man and one who sees, are
      both together in the darkness, they are no different
      from one another. When the light comes, then he who
      sees will see the light, and he who is blind will
      remain in darkness.
      The Lord said, Blessed is he who is before he came
      into being. For he is, has been and shall be.

      > John 11:11
      > These things said he: and after that he saith unto
      > them, Our friend Lazarus
      > sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of
      > sleep.


      Who is stilled in the house?

      > John 11:16
      > Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his
      > fellowdisciples, Let us
      > also go, that we may die with him.

      Do you think that Thomas thought this was really a
      regular death? I interpret from his work he knew as
      well what was happening.

      > John 11:17
      > Then when Jesus came, he found that he had [lain] in
      > the grave four days
      > already.
      > John 11:18
      > Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen
      > furlongs off:
      > John 11:19
      > And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to
      > comfort them concerning
      > their brother.
      > John 11:20
      > Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was
      > coming, went and met him: b
      > ut Mary sat [still] in the house.


      Why would it have been so?

      > John 11:21
      > Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst
      > been here, my brother had
      > not died.


      Here it seems to me that Martha is shown once again as
      one who does not understand spiritual things.
      Magdalene did not just pull herself up out of the hat
      into understanding. She had understanding from the
      beginning and it wasn't just a mooshy heart
      understanding. It was a Sophia understanding of things
      in my understanding.

      Well, here the message is truncated and I am off to my
      coffee. I hope Christina you will not speak down to
      me and we will have a conversation even if we come to
      a disagreement. I will work on stating a thing that
      seems like I am calling it the all and all truth
      versus something I have come to.

      In my little bible that is now in shreds I will share
      with you something I believe I was led to see
      differently one day than I had ever seen before.
      Although I always had questions I never found anyone
      who had the same ones as I. When I found Dr. Steiner I
      knew that I was not the only one and that he must have
      questioned in his spirit the many things I did
      regarding the bible, because he had many answers to my

      Here is the quote that kept calling out to me after a
      while: NOW a certain MAN was ill, NAMED Lazarus.
      MARY ....

      Well, I am reading one of those new fangled Bibles for
      this reference as mine is at home and it does not have
      the exact words as I had read three years ago. So, I
      will bring this quote later on.

      All My Best,


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