Lazarus/ John Salome
- Dear Dottie,
I don't mind you disagreeing with me or my interpretations, but in this last
response, you have brought in a number of statements that certainly don't come
from Steiner or even the Bible and you don't cite references fully. There are
a lot of "I believes" in it, not in the sense of "I think that is what is
meant by what I am referring to." but in terms of a personal belief system only.
I hope that I have made it clear in these discussions when I am giving an
"interpretation" of what I am working with as a reference point. I think that
there is always room for some interpretation, but that is not the same thing as
denying that an idea or fact (conceptual or spiritual) was not there in the
first place. When Frank said "that never happened" about what I stated regarding
the Threefold Social Order being placed on the table at Versailles, I had to go
back and check my sources. I have found my sources and am preparing to
present them to you all. I can't find the words "on the table" in what I have found,
but the extent to which the Threefold Social Order was placed in front of the
political and even military forces of the time was astonishing!!
If I mix red and blue and tell you I made purple and you say "No you didn't
ever make purple." Something may be wrong. You can discuss the finer points
about the hues, tones and shadings and the words "lilac" "red-violet"
"blue-violet" etc. in order to come to a finer understanding and perception of the color
that is clearly observable on the paper. But to say that it is green means
that something is amiss, conceptually or perceptually. As I understand the
"Philosophy of Spiritual Activity." Rudolf Steiner's entire work is based on the
premise or idea that there is such a thing as objective reality, both sense
perceptible and perceptible by senses which the individual must develop. And that
with healthy senses, two or more people can come to an agreement in defining
the reality of an object or an idea because it contains that reality in the
concept inherent in it. So, if you and I are looking at a chair, we might "argue"
or discuss whether it's a Chippendale or Georgian piece of work, but if one of
us says it's a table, something's amiss.
To state categorically that John (interpret him as you will) was not at the
foot of the cross and that Jesus did not say these words
Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister,
Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he
loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
This is the way John describes himself at the Last Supper:
Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that
disciple took her unto his own [home].
Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of
whom he spake.
He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?
Now, if you want to say that in both cases He is referring to Mary Magdalene,
I will repeat what I said earlier that Mary Magdalene is certainly intimately
bound with Lazarus/John and I will agree that she is part of both pictures.
But to say that it was she INSTEAD of John, that he wasn't there cannot be
correct exoterically or esoterically. Perhaps you can't find Lazarus/ John because
you see Mary Magdalene so strongly and haven't worked out how they are
connected. Also, I don't think that you will find Lazarus as Lazarus anymore,
because he became John.
Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the
same place where he was.
Then after that saith he to [his] disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.
[His] disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee;
and goest thou thither again?
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the
day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus
sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of
taking of rest in sleep.
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may
believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.
Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us
also go, that we may die with him.
Then when Jesus came, he found that he had [lain] in the grave four days
Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:
And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning
Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: b
ut Mary sat [still] in the house.
Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had
But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give
Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at
the last day.
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth
in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of
God, which should come into the world.
And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her sister
secretly, saying, The Master is come, and calleth for thee.
As soon as she heard [that], she arose quickly, and came unto him.
Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha
The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted her, when they
saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out, followed her, saying, She
goeth unto the grave to weep there.
Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his
feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came
with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,
And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.
Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!
And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the
blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?
Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave,
and a stone lay upon it.
Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead,
saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been [dead] four
Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe,
thou shouldest see the glory of God?
Then they took away the stone [from the place] where the dead was laid. And
Jesus lifted up [his] eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard
And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand
by I said [it], that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and
his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and
let him go.
Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus
did, believed on him.
But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things
Jesus had done.
Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What
do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
If we let him thus alone, all [men] will believe on him: and the Romans shall
come and take away both our place and nation.
And one of them, [named] Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said
unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the
people, and that the whole nation perish not.
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he
prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one
the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
I want to be able to take the time for each point, but I only have time for
this one this morning.
- Christine you wrote:
> I don't mind you disagreeing with me or myDear Christine,
> interpretations, but in this last
> response, you have brought in a number of statements
> that certainly don't come
> from Steiner or even the Bible and you don't cite
> references fully.
You can not say my references do not come from the
Bible because that is exactly where they come from.
And I believe I was led to this through Steiners work.
I would never have thought out of my own mind that
Lazarus was not Lazarus. And my references come from
inner work from the outer work to begin with as far as
I can tell. Could have been always within me but I am
only aware of it from an outer to inner experience on
a mental level.
> a lot of "I believes" in it, not in the sense of "IDottie
> think that is what is
> meant by what I am referring to." but in terms of a
> personal belief system only.
That may be your take on what I have said but that is
not how it is within me. I don't have a strong
personal belief of this is right and this is wrong
type of personality. I have lived life to such an
extent that I find there are so many mysteries and
when one door of learning looks like it has been
escavated there seems to be another door that has been
found to go through.
I have found my sources
> and am preparing toDottie
> present them to you all.
I have found my sources as well and they come from my
interpretation of the words within the Bible as well
as insights gleemed of Steiners work and the work I
contemplate on. I did not expect that I would be
having this conversation regarding Magdalene and my
research inner and outer has been left to the way side
a bit due to my film carreer, unfortunately.
> To state categorically that John (interpret him asDottie
> you will) was not at the
> foot of the cross and that Jesus did not say these
I never said that Jesus did not say these words. I
interpret them differently than you do.
> John 19:25Dottie
> Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother,
> and his mother's sister,
> Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
> John 19:26
> When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the
> disciple standing by, whom he
> loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy
He was talking about Magdalene as the disciple as best
I can tell. Everything I have read and contemplated
speaks to this for me, including the making of ALL
disciples to become males. Magdalene had become male
at this point in my opinion. She had become a rayer of
Christlike love and that is why she could interpret
the things the others could not. I think ChristJesus
was also, (and here is where I would normally use the
word belief as in a heart thing not in a mental belief
system, or maybe it is better understood if I use the
word, understand' instead of belief)calling out to the
Heavens and Earth in a way that the Christ spirit was
given over to the Mother Spirit.
> This is the way John describes himself at the LastDottie
> John 19:27
> Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother!
> And from that hour that
> disciple took her unto his own [home].
I interpret within the Christ spirit given up to the
> John 13:23Dottie
> Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his
> disciples, whom Jesus loved.
Do you see Magdalene at the table? I see her at the
table. And whom would lean on Jesus bosom? I believe
if you read the Nag Hammadi there is a clear
understanding that the one whom Jesus loved the most
and was most comfortable and was considered his
companion was Magdalene. She had just washed the feet
in which Jesus was to follow and complete in the
> John 13:24Dottie
> Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he
> should ask who it should be of
> whom he spake.
Why wouldn't Peter have asked Jesus himself? He was
right there. He was asking one who was much more
intimately involved (and no I do not mean by sexual
relations)than he or the others. Obviously if he asked
the one who was leaning on Jesus bosom he could have
asked Jesus as he was that close. I believe this
passage speaks to the intimate loving relationship
between the two.
> Now, if you want to say that in both cases He isDottie
> referring to Mary Magdalene,
> I will repeat what I said earlier that Mary
> Magdalene is certainly intimately
> bound with Lazarus/John and I will agree that she is
> part of both pictures.
> But to say that it was she INSTEAD of John, that he
> wasn't there cannot be
> correct exoterically or esoterically.
Well, I guess I would have to know of what John you
speak? John was not laying on his breast to the best
of my inner work. Have you done the inner work on this
in the sense that you were open to all possibilities?
Its easy to say this cannot be exoterically or
esoterically correct if you have not done the work on
this particular piece. And I am not talking about
'believing' what one has read or thought was true from
reading and light interpretation according to agreeing
what others have said.
Again, I have to say this did not come to me easy in
the sense that I just made it up. I was guided to each
of these points through the spirit on a
inspirational/intuitional level. To have just come up
with an idea would never have occurred to me.
> can't find Lazarus/ John becauseDottie
> you see Mary Magdalene so strongly and haven't
> worked out how they are
Well, I see Magdalene strongly because she has showed
herself to me in a sense. However above all I am
looking for the mystery not Dotties version of what
the mystery is but the real mystery and what it means.
I also know that there are many sides to this mystery.
I don't understand Lazarus to be there in a physical
form as a seperated human entity than Magdalene.
I also understand that the John/Lazarus is actually
John/Magdalene. In John we are speaking of John the
Baptist who is already beheaded are we not? He
interpenetrated all of the spirits after his death I
believe Dr. Steiner tells it. (Don't know that for my
Have you never thought of why they all wanted to kill
Jesus specifically after this point? In my
understanding of this it is an initiatory right of
passege not the death as we know it. This practice was
not uncommon among masters of faith. How are we
supposing the other disciples who had reached certain
levels of initiation had received them. The whole idea
of holding a man under water until he could not
breathe is also a part of this concept. It makes sense
to me that they were outraged by it being a woman who
was initiated. Have you never thought of why Martha
went to see Jesus instead of Mary. It was Mary who sat
at his feet and Martha who prepared the house. In this
instance they have Mary 'sitting still' in the house.
It is she who was always out and about with Jesus.
What is this signifying to you?
Also, I don't think that you will find
> Lazarus as Lazarus anymore,Dottie
> because he became John.
Nope can't do that. You have to look Christine if you
want to know of what I speak. If Lazarus was a true
being you would be able to interconnect with this or
at least have a 'feeling' for it. Can you say that you
do other than what you have been told? Have you ever
even thought to look and see? I'll bet no because it
was not told before nor is it a natural thought to
consider contemplating. However, if you spend time to
see the mystery mystery of this story I believe you
will either be able to see of what I speak or at least
have a conversation with me about your thoughts on it.
Your own thoughts.
> John 11:5Dottie
> Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
Why, is Magdalene not mentioned?
> John 11:9Dottie
> Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the
> day? If any man walk in the
> day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of
> this world.
> John 11:10
> But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth,
> because there is no light in
I understand this to be a direct reference to a Nag
Hammadi quote regarding a question as to why Jesus
love Mary more than them:
Gospel of Phillip "As for Wisdom who is called "the
barren" she is hte mother of the angels. Adn the
companion of the Savior is Mary Magdalene. But Christ
loved her more than all the disciples and used to kiss
her on the mouth often. The rest of the disciples were
offended by it and expressed disapproval. They said to
him, "Why do you love her more than all of us? The
savior answered and said to them, "Why do I not love
you like her? When a blind man and one who sees, are
both together in the darkness, they are no different
from one another. When the light comes, then he who
sees will see the light, and he who is blind will
remain in darkness.
The Lord said, Blessed is he who is before he came
into being. For he is, has been and shall be.
> John 11:11Dottie
> These things said he: and after that he saith unto
> them, Our friend Lazarus
> sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of
Who is stilled in the house?
> John 11:16Do you think that Thomas thought this was really a
> Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his
> fellowdisciples, Let us
> also go, that we may die with him.
regular death? I interpret from his work he knew as
well what was happening.
> John 11:17Dottie
> Then when Jesus came, he found that he had [lain] in
> the grave four days
> John 11:18
> Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen
> furlongs off:
> John 11:19
> And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to
> comfort them concerning
> their brother.
> John 11:20
> Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was
> coming, went and met him: b
> ut Mary sat [still] in the house.
Why would it have been so?
> John 11:21Dottie
> Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst
> been here, my brother had
> not died.
Here it seems to me that Martha is shown once again as
one who does not understand spiritual things.
Magdalene did not just pull herself up out of the hat
into understanding. She had understanding from the
beginning and it wasn't just a mooshy heart
understanding. It was a Sophia understanding of things
in my understanding.
Well, here the message is truncated and I am off to my
coffee. I hope Christina you will not speak down to
me and we will have a conversation even if we come to
a disagreement. I will work on stating a thing that
seems like I am calling it the all and all truth
versus something I have come to.
In my little bible that is now in shreds I will share
with you something I believe I was led to see
differently one day than I had ever seen before.
Although I always had questions I never found anyone
who had the same ones as I. When I found Dr. Steiner I
knew that I was not the only one and that he must have
questioned in his spirit the many things I did
regarding the bible, because he had many answers to my
Here is the quote that kept calling out to me after a
while: NOW a certain MAN was ill, NAMED Lazarus.
Well, I am reading one of those new fangled Bibles for
this reference as mine is at home and it does not have
the exact words as I had read three years ago. So, I
will bring this quote later on.
All My Best,
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