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Lazarus/ John Salome

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  • golden3000997@cs.com
    Dear Dottie, I don t mind you disagreeing with me or my interpretations, but in this last response, you have brought in a number of statements that certainly
    Message 1 of 2 , Nov 11, 2003
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      Dear Dottie,

      I don't mind you disagreeing with me or my interpretations, but in this last
      response, you have brought in a number of statements that certainly don't come
      from Steiner or even the Bible and you don't cite references fully. There are
      a lot of "I believes" in it, not in the sense of "I think that is what is
      meant by what I am referring to." but in terms of a personal belief system only.
      I hope that I have made it clear in these discussions when I am giving an
      "interpretation" of what I am working with as a reference point. I think that
      there is always room for some interpretation, but that is not the same thing as
      denying that an idea or fact (conceptual or spiritual) was not there in the
      first place. When Frank said "that never happened" about what I stated regarding
      the Threefold Social Order being placed on the table at Versailles, I had to go
      back and check my sources. I have found my sources and am preparing to
      present them to you all. I can't find the words "on the table" in what I have found,
      but the extent to which the Threefold Social Order was placed in front of the
      political and even military forces of the time was astonishing!!

      If I mix red and blue and tell you I made purple and you say "No you didn't
      ever make purple." Something may be wrong. You can discuss the finer points
      about the hues, tones and shadings and the words "lilac" "red-violet"
      "blue-violet" etc. in order to come to a finer understanding and perception of the color
      that is clearly observable on the paper. But to say that it is green means
      that something is amiss, conceptually or perceptually. As I understand the
      "Philosophy of Spiritual Activity." Rudolf Steiner's entire work is based on the
      premise or idea that there is such a thing as objective reality, both sense
      perceptible and perceptible by senses which the individual must develop. And that
      with healthy senses, two or more people can come to an agreement in defining
      the reality of an object or an idea because it contains that reality in the
      concept inherent in it. So, if you and I are looking at a chair, we might "argue"
      or discuss whether it's a Chippendale or Georgian piece of work, but if one of
      us says it's a table, something's amiss.

      To state categorically that John (interpret him as you will) was not at the
      foot of the cross and that Jesus did not say these words

      John 19:25
      Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister,
      Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

      John 19:26
      When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he
      loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

      This is the way John describes himself at the Last Supper:

      John 19:27
      Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that
      disciple took her unto his own [home].

      John 13:23
      Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

      John 13:24
      Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of
      whom he spake.

      John 13:25
      He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?


      Now, if you want to say that in both cases He is referring to Mary Magdalene,
      I will repeat what I said earlier that Mary Magdalene is certainly intimately
      bound with Lazarus/John and I will agree that she is part of both pictures.
      But to say that it was she INSTEAD of John, that he wasn't there cannot be
      correct exoterically or esoterically. Perhaps you can't find Lazarus/ John because
      you see Mary Magdalene so strongly and haven't worked out how they are
      connected. Also, I don't think that you will find Lazarus as Lazarus anymore,
      because he became John.

      ************

      John 11:5
      Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.

      John 11:6
      When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the
      same place where he was.

      John 11:7
      Then after that saith he to [his] disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.

      John 11:8
      [His] disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee;
      and goest thou thither again?

      John 11:9
      Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the
      day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

      John 11:10
      But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in
      him.

      John 11:11
      These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus
      sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

      John 11:12
      Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

      John 11:13
      Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of
      taking of rest in sleep.

      John 11:14
      Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

      John 11:15
      And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may
      believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

      John 11:16
      Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us
      also go, that we may die with him.

      John 11:17
      Then when Jesus came, he found that he had [lain] in the grave four days
      already.

      John 11:18
      Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:

      John 11:19
      And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning
      their brother.

      John 11:20
      Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: b
      ut Mary sat [still] in the house.

      John 11:21
      Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had
      not died.

      John 11:22
      But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give
      [it] thee.

      John 11:23
      Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

      John 11:24
      Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at
      the last day.

      John 11:25
      Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth
      in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

      John 11:26
      And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

      John 11:27
      She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of
      God, which should come into the world.

      John 11:28
      And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her sister
      secretly, saying, The Master is come, and calleth for thee.

      John 11:29
      As soon as she heard [that], she arose quickly, and came unto him.

      John 11:30
      Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha
      met him.

      John 11:31
      The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted her, when they
      saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out, followed her, saying, She
      goeth unto the grave to weep there.

      John 11:32
      Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his
      feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

      John 11:33
      When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came
      with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,

      John 11:34
      And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.

      John 11:35
      Jesus wept.

      John 11:36
      Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!

      John 11:37
      And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the
      blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?

      John 11:38
      Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave,
      and a stone lay upon it.

      John 11:39
      Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead,
      saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been [dead] four
      days.

      John 11:40
      Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe,
      thou shouldest see the glory of God?

      John 11:41
      Then they took away the stone [from the place] where the dead was laid. And
      Jesus lifted up [his] eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard
      me.

      John 11:42
      And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand
      by I said [it], that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

      John 11:43
      And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

      John 11:44
      And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and
      his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and
      let him go.

      John 11:45
      Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus
      did, believed on him.

      John 11:46
      But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things
      Jesus had done.


      John 11:47
      Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What
      do we? for this man doeth many miracles.

      John 11:48
      If we let him thus alone, all [men] will believe on him: and the Romans shall
      come and take away both our place and nation.

      John 11:49
      And one of them, [named] Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said
      unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

      John 11:50
      Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the
      people, and that the whole nation perish not.

      John 11:51
      And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he
      prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

      John 11:52
      And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one
      the children of God that were scattered abroad.

      John 11:53
      Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

      I want to be able to take the time for each point, but I only have time for
      this one this morning.

      Christine
    • dottie zold
      ... Dear Christine, You can not say my references do not come from the Bible because that is exactly where they come from. And I believe I was led to this
      Message 2 of 2 , Nov 11, 2003
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        Christine you wrote:
        > I don't mind you disagreeing with me or my
        > interpretations, but in this last
        > response, you have brought in a number of statements
        > that certainly don't come
        > from Steiner or even the Bible and you don't cite
        > references fully.

        Dear Christine,

        You can not say my references do not come from the
        Bible because that is exactly where they come from.
        And I believe I was led to this through Steiners work.
        I would never have thought out of my own mind that
        Lazarus was not Lazarus. And my references come from
        inner work from the outer work to begin with as far as
        I can tell. Could have been always within me but I am
        only aware of it from an outer to inner experience on
        a mental level.

        Christine
        There are
        > a lot of "I believes" in it, not in the sense of "I
        > think that is what is
        > meant by what I am referring to." but in terms of a
        > personal belief system only.

        Dottie

        That may be your take on what I have said but that is
        not how it is within me. I don't have a strong
        personal belief of this is right and this is wrong
        type of personality. I have lived life to such an
        extent that I find there are so many mysteries and
        when one door of learning looks like it has been
        escavated there seems to be another door that has been
        found to go through.

        Christine
        I have found my sources
        > and am preparing to
        > present them to you all.

        Dottie

        I have found my sources as well and they come from my
        interpretation of the words within the Bible as well
        as insights gleemed of Steiners work and the work I
        contemplate on. I did not expect that I would be
        having this conversation regarding Magdalene and my
        research inner and outer has been left to the way side
        a bit due to my film carreer, unfortunately.

        Christine
        > To state categorically that John (interpret him as
        > you will) was not at the
        > foot of the cross and that Jesus did not say these
        > words
        >
        Dottie

        I never said that Jesus did not say these words. I
        interpret them differently than you do.

        Christine
        > John 19:25
        > Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother,
        > and his mother's sister,
        > Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
        >
        > John 19:26
        > When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the
        > disciple standing by, whom he
        > loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy
        > son!
        >

        Dottie

        He was talking about Magdalene as the disciple as best
        I can tell. Everything I have read and contemplated
        speaks to this for me, including the making of ALL
        disciples to become males. Magdalene had become male
        at this point in my opinion. She had become a rayer of
        Christlike love and that is why she could interpret
        the things the others could not. I think ChristJesus
        was also, (and here is where I would normally use the
        word belief as in a heart thing not in a mental belief
        system, or maybe it is better understood if I use the
        word, understand' instead of belief)calling out to the
        Heavens and Earth in a way that the Christ spirit was
        given over to the Mother Spirit.

        Christine
        > This is the way John describes himself at the Last
        > Supper:
        >
        > John 19:27
        > Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother!
        > And from that hour that
        > disciple took her unto his own [home].

        Dottie

        I interpret within the Christ spirit given up to the
        Earth.


        > John 13:23
        > Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his
        > disciples, whom Jesus loved.

        Dottie

        Do you see Magdalene at the table? I see her at the
        table. And whom would lean on Jesus bosom? I believe
        if you read the Nag Hammadi there is a clear
        understanding that the one whom Jesus loved the most
        and was most comfortable and was considered his
        companion was Magdalene. She had just washed the feet
        in which Jesus was to follow and complete in the
        others.

        > John 13:24
        > Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he
        > should ask who it should be of
        > whom he spake.

        Dottie

        Why wouldn't Peter have asked Jesus himself? He was
        right there. He was asking one who was much more
        intimately involved (and no I do not mean by sexual
        relations)than he or the others. Obviously if he asked
        the one who was leaning on Jesus bosom he could have
        asked Jesus as he was that close. I believe this
        passage speaks to the intimate loving relationship
        between the two.

        Christine
        > Now, if you want to say that in both cases He is
        > referring to Mary Magdalene,
        > I will repeat what I said earlier that Mary
        > Magdalene is certainly intimately
        > bound with Lazarus/John and I will agree that she is
        > part of both pictures.
        > But to say that it was she INSTEAD of John, that he
        > wasn't there cannot be
        > correct exoterically or esoterically.

        Dottie

        Well, I guess I would have to know of what John you
        speak? John was not laying on his breast to the best
        of my inner work. Have you done the inner work on this
        in the sense that you were open to all possibilities?
        Its easy to say this cannot be exoterically or
        esoterically correct if you have not done the work on
        this particular piece. And I am not talking about
        'believing' what one has read or thought was true from
        reading and light interpretation according to agreeing
        what others have said.

        Again, I have to say this did not come to me easy in
        the sense that I just made it up. I was guided to each
        of these points through the spirit on a
        inspirational/intuitional level. To have just come up
        with an idea would never have occurred to me.

        Christine
        Perhaps you
        > can't find Lazarus/ John because
        > you see Mary Magdalene so strongly and haven't
        > worked out how they are
        > connected.

        Dottie

        Well, I see Magdalene strongly because she has showed
        herself to me in a sense. However above all I am
        looking for the mystery not Dotties version of what
        the mystery is but the real mystery and what it means.
        I also know that there are many sides to this mystery.
        I don't understand Lazarus to be there in a physical
        form as a seperated human entity than Magdalene.

        I also understand that the John/Lazarus is actually
        John/Magdalene. In John we are speaking of John the
        Baptist who is already beheaded are we not? He
        interpenetrated all of the spirits after his death I
        believe Dr. Steiner tells it. (Don't know that for my
        self thought)

        Have you never thought of why they all wanted to kill
        Jesus specifically after this point? In my
        understanding of this it is an initiatory right of
        passege not the death as we know it. This practice was
        not uncommon among masters of faith. How are we
        supposing the other disciples who had reached certain
        levels of initiation had received them. The whole idea
        of holding a man under water until he could not
        breathe is also a part of this concept. It makes sense
        to me that they were outraged by it being a woman who
        was initiated. Have you never thought of why Martha
        went to see Jesus instead of Mary. It was Mary who sat
        at his feet and Martha who prepared the house. In this
        instance they have Mary 'sitting still' in the house.
        It is she who was always out and about with Jesus.
        What is this signifying to you?

        Christine
        Also, I don't think that you will find
        > Lazarus as Lazarus anymore,
        > because he became John.
        >
        Dottie

        Nope can't do that. You have to look Christine if you
        want to know of what I speak. If Lazarus was a true
        being you would be able to interconnect with this or
        at least have a 'feeling' for it. Can you say that you
        do other than what you have been told? Have you ever
        even thought to look and see? I'll bet no because it
        was not told before nor is it a natural thought to
        consider contemplating. However, if you spend time to
        see the mystery mystery of this story I believe you
        will either be able to see of what I speak or at least
        have a conversation with me about your thoughts on it.
        Your own thoughts.


        > John 11:5
        > Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.

        Dottie

        Why, is Magdalene not mentioned?


        > John 11:9
        > Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the
        > day? If any man walk in the
        > day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of
        > this world.
        >
        > John 11:10
        > But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth,
        > because there is no light in
        > him.

        Dottie

        I understand this to be a direct reference to a Nag
        Hammadi quote regarding a question as to why Jesus
        love Mary more than them:

        Gospel of Phillip "As for Wisdom who is called "the
        barren" she is hte mother of the angels. Adn the
        companion of the Savior is Mary Magdalene. But Christ
        loved her more than all the disciples and used to kiss
        her on the mouth often. The rest of the disciples were
        offended by it and expressed disapproval. They said to
        him, "Why do you love her more than all of us? The
        savior answered and said to them, "Why do I not love
        you like her? When a blind man and one who sees, are
        both together in the darkness, they are no different
        from one another. When the light comes, then he who
        sees will see the light, and he who is blind will
        remain in darkness.
        The Lord said, Blessed is he who is before he came
        into being. For he is, has been and shall be.


        > John 11:11
        > These things said he: and after that he saith unto
        > them, Our friend Lazarus
        > sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of
        > sleep.

        Dottie

        Who is stilled in the house?


        > John 11:16
        > Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his
        > fellowdisciples, Let us
        > also go, that we may die with him.

        Do you think that Thomas thought this was really a
        regular death? I interpret from his work he knew as
        well what was happening.

        > John 11:17
        > Then when Jesus came, he found that he had [lain] in
        > the grave four days
        > already.
        >
        > John 11:18
        > Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen
        > furlongs off:
        >
        > John 11:19
        > And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to
        > comfort them concerning
        > their brother.
        >
        > John 11:20
        > Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was
        > coming, went and met him: b
        > ut Mary sat [still] in the house.

        Dottie

        Why would it have been so?

        > John 11:21
        > Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst
        > been here, my brother had
        > not died.

        Dottie

        Here it seems to me that Martha is shown once again as
        one who does not understand spiritual things.
        Magdalene did not just pull herself up out of the hat
        into understanding. She had understanding from the
        beginning and it wasn't just a mooshy heart
        understanding. It was a Sophia understanding of things
        in my understanding.

        Well, here the message is truncated and I am off to my
        coffee. I hope Christina you will not speak down to
        me and we will have a conversation even if we come to
        a disagreement. I will work on stating a thing that
        seems like I am calling it the all and all truth
        versus something I have come to.

        In my little bible that is now in shreds I will share
        with you something I believe I was led to see
        differently one day than I had ever seen before.
        Although I always had questions I never found anyone
        who had the same ones as I. When I found Dr. Steiner I
        knew that I was not the only one and that he must have
        questioned in his spirit the many things I did
        regarding the bible, because he had many answers to my
        questions.

        Here is the quote that kept calling out to me after a
        while: NOW a certain MAN was ill, NAMED Lazarus.
        MARY ....

        Well, I am reading one of those new fangled Bibles for
        this reference as mine is at home and it does not have
        the exact words as I had read three years ago. So, I
        will bring this quote later on.

        All My Best,

        Dottie


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