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The Secret Stream

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  • dottie zold
    Dear Friends, I have begun reading The Secret Stream by Dr. Steiner and I jumped quickly to see a thing pertaining to a poem by Goethe. And I shall share it
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 1, 2005
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      Dear Friends,

      I have begun reading The Secret Stream by Dr. Steiner and I jumped
      quickly to see a thing pertaining to a poem by Goethe. And I shall
      share it quickly as I think it pertains to the conversation as to how
      the Doctor sees the evolution of a thing.
      December 25, 1907
      page 100 +:

      (...) this poem, indeed, reamined a fragment, but one that shows us
      in a deeply significant way the inner spiritual developement of an
      individual who is penetrated and convinced by the feelings and ideas
      I have just described.

      Goethe invites us first to follow the pilgrim path of such an
      individual. He indicates that this pilgrim path may lead us far
      astray, that it is not easy to find it, and that one must have
      patience and devotion to reach the goal. Whoever possesses these will
      find the light that he or she seeks.

      Let us hear the beginning of the poem:

      I have made a wonderful song for you -
      Hear it gladly! Call everyone t listen!
      The way leads you through mountains and valleys,
      Now your view is restricted,now it is free again.
      If the path gently disappears into the bushes,
      Don't think it's a mistake -
      When the time is right, when we have climbed enough,
      We shall approach our goal.

      Let no one think, no matter how deeply they reflect,
      That they will unravel all the wonders hidden here.
      Nevertheless, many people will gain many things on this way
      For Mother Earth produces many flowers.
      Some may leave with downcast eyes,
      But others, with cheerful gestures, will stay:
      This way will bring everyone a different pleasure.
      For the spring flows for many pilgrims.

      This is the situation to which we are introduced. Then, we are
      shown "Brother Mark," a pilgrim who, if we were to ask him, would not
      be able to express formally what we have just seen to be the esoteric
      Christian idea, but in whose heart and soul these ideas live,
      transformed into feeling. It is not easy to discover everything that
      has been secreted into this poem called 'The Mysteries'. In it,
      Goethe has clearly indicated a process ocurring in human life in
      which the highest ideas, thoughts, and conceptions are transformed
      into feelings and perceptions.

      How does this tranformation take place?
      We live through many embodiments, from incarnation to incarnation. In
      each, we learn many things, each full of opportunities for gathering
      new experiences. We cannot carry over everything in every detail from
      one incarnation to the another. When we are born again it is not
      necessary for everything that we have learned a great deal in one
      incarnatin and then die and are born anew, although there is no need
      for all our ideas to live again, we come to life with the fruits of
      our former life, with the fruits of what we have learned. Our powers
      of perception and feeling are in accord with our earlier incarnations.

      In this poem, we have a wonderful phenomenon: an individual who, in
      the simplist words - as a child might speak, not in definite
      intellectual or abstract terms - shows us the highest wisdom, which
      is a fruit of a former knowledge. He has transformed this knowledge
      into feeling and experience and is thereby qualified to lead others
      who have perhaps learned more in the form of concepts.'

      Dottie:

      Well of course he goes on but I stop here. One must include former
      lives when looking into a soul state of a person. And if you can not
      know that then one would hope one would be dilligent in what is
      concluded about a person and thier soul state today.

      Sincerely,
      Dottie
    • kmlightseeker
      Hi Dottie, ... I found the Goethe poem/Steiner commentary excerpt interesting, Dottie. Yeah, it does seem likely that a past incarnation provides a tone or
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 2, 2005
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        Hi Dottie,



        "> Dottie:
        >
        > Well of course he goes on but I stop here. One must include former
        > lives when looking into a soul state of a person. And if you can not
        > know that then one would hope one would be dilligent in what is
        > concluded about a person and thier soul state today."

        I found the Goethe poem/Steiner commentary excerpt interesting,
        Dottie. Yeah, it does seem likely that a past incarnation provides a
        tone or sensibility in the next life in the form of feeling.

        When you suggest that an appreciation of those legacies in the soul
        helps our understanding of that soul - whether past lives or current
        soul development state - do you believe this is possible at any time
        in a given life, and would it be more fruitful to develop this
        understanding of a person earlier in their life or in their more
        mature years? I ask this because I seem to remember Steiner saying
        that a human is influenced by the prior lifetime up to the point their
        of the early 30s (32 to be exact...I think), after which the soul
        develops it's course in terms of the present lifetimes experiences.


        Thanks,

        Keith
      • dottie zold
        ... Hey Keith, I don t know that one has to appreciate them, rather I think it should be taken into consideration, previous incarnated learnings, when judging
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 2, 2005
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          Kim:
          > I found the Goethe poem/Steiner commentary excerpt
          > interesting,
          > Dottie. Yeah, it does seem likely that a past
          > incarnation provides a
          > tone or sensibility in the next life in the form of
          > feeling.

          Hey Keith,

          I don't know that one has to appreciate them, rather I
          think it should be taken into consideration, previous
          incarnated learnings, when judging a man's soul state
          in the here and now. And I also believe that one must
          take in not just the last life of learning but that of
          others as well, as I understand from some of Dr.
          Steiners teachings, that one incarnation can be a
          great one and another one a time off in a sense.

          Kim:
          > When you suggest that an appreciation of those
          > legacies in the soul
          > helps our understanding of that soul - whether past
          > lives or current
          > soul development state - do you believe this is
          > possible at any time
          > in a given life, and would it be more fruitful to
          > develop this
          > understanding of a person earlier in their life or
          > in their more
          > mature years?

          I don't know that one needs to look at the soul state
          of another man in the first place without the other
          persons consent on a level that was done to Mr.
          Prokofieff. I mean how can you judge a mans soul state
          without knowing his particular bio of today and
          previous lifetimes. How can one know what a man has
          chosen as his purpose of soul?

          I think it is superficial and speaks of the person so
          doing a bio on another because they do not like the
          direction of the way a thing is going. In the case of
          Mr. Prokofieff one can always write to counter his
          books and so forth but to counter him in such a way as
          to 'out' him without the prerequesit data is
          vindictive to me.

          Kim:
          I ask this because I seem to remember
          > Steiner saying
          > that a human is influenced by the prior lifetime up
          > to the point their
          > of the early 30s (32 to be exact...I think), after
          > which the soul
          > develops it's course in terms of the present
          > lifetimes experiences.

          Could be Kim, I don't know these things for myself.
          Either way I am a believer in that one soul's state is
          not open for public discussion if you do not have all
          the tools. And from what I can see of how this was
          handled it was not known and I find that
          unnacceptable.

          Dottie

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        • dottie zold
          Hey Keith, sorry about the Kim thing. There used to be a Kim here and then with the first letters of your signinname I keep writing Kim. Thanks, Dottie
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 2, 2005
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            Hey Keith, sorry about the Kim thing. There used to be a Kim here and
            then with the first letters of your signinname I keep writing Kim.
            Thanks, Dottie
          • kmlightseeker
            Ho problem, Dottie. You know, I ve been called Kevin by some now and then. Must be a syllabic thing. Thanks, Keith
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 6, 2005
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              Ho problem, Dottie. You know, I've been called Kevin by some now and
              then. Must be a syllabic thing.


              Thanks,

              Keith


              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "dottie zold"
              <dottie_z@y...> wrote:
              >
              > Hey Keith, sorry about the Kim thing. There used to be a Kim here and
              > then with the first letters of your signinname I keep writing Kim.
              > Thanks, Dottie
            • dottie zold
              Well, I ve been thinking about this Christian Rosenkruex a bit and I picked up Dr. Steiner s book The Secret Stream. While reading a chapter it ocurred to me
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 1, 2005
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                Well, I've been thinking about this Christian Rosenkruex a bit and I
                picked up Dr. Steiner's book The Secret Stream. While reading a
                chapter it ocurred to me to think back to the Nathan Jesus soul and
                how this is really never explained by the Dr. or at least not to my
                readings or understandings or rememberences of his work.

                I am wont to share what may seem like a far fetched idea that may put
                me in the laughing stock again but I'm kinda used to it by now. If we
                look at what Dr. Steiner says about how the etheric body of this
                child was in the earthly realm and how it returned again almost
                completely intact when he died in the thirteenth century and actually
                that is what we are kinda impacted by today I keep coming back to the
                Mary/Eve soul within the Nathan Jesus boy line. And beings this
                switched over to the other 'Mary' I can say this is how the Magdalene
                keeps coming up for me in all these works: she is involved with this
                etheric line somehow through the Sophian soul of this Mary/Eve.
                Something is in that mix somehow and I don't know how to rightly say
                it.

                So, the picture I get is the Nathan boy soul either leaving at the
                entrance of the Zarathusthra soul at the age of thirteen and thereby
                staying within the earthly etheric realm or..................well I
                can't hold it.

                Point being, I can see this naked youth/soul as the expression of the
                Mary soul that then flees at the capture of Jesus the Christ. I still
                can find no Lazarus within this as of yet. And it is going to be
                quite interesting to read this book and see wherein this Lazarus idea
                is brought into the Secret Stream.

                Best,
                Dottie
              • dottie zold
                Well, looking at the secrecy surrounding where the story originally takes place and contemplating as to why that can not be told, well it could not be told
                Message 7 of 8 , Aug 2, 2005
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                  Well, looking at the secrecy surrounding where the story originally
                  takes place and contemplating as to why that can not be told, well it
                  could not be told during Dr. Steiner's time on earth, I think it has
                  to do with what this 'secret place' would reveal about the history of
                  those that supposedly left Palestine and headed for the shores of
                  France. That's what I think.

                  But I think it can be told today, as to where. I think the shepards
                  have already gotten it and then it will be up to the Magi to fill us
                  in. But it seems that the Magi are so caught up in their intelligence
                  that they can not sense what it is that the Shepards are feeling. And
                  I think the editor of many of these books that I am reading Bramford
                  is extremely gifted in the spiritual Light. Light of Sophia that is.

                  God, there really is such a lamguage in Dr. STeiner's work that once
                  one catches on one can see ever deeper into what he was bringing. He
                  was a shepard and a magi at the same time: A Michaelic intelligence,
                  with a Sophian Wisdom, and a Christ's love. That must be the mix of
                  the two streams somehow.

                  Dr. Steiner has a beautiful understanding as to the differences
                  between these two streams. What I love most wonderfully are his words
                  about the Shepards: they 'felt' the changes in the earth as the
                  Christ neared. They knew the earth so well that they felt it within
                  the sphere with their whole beings and then this rose to Imagination.

                  So, I think it is possible that the place we are speaking of is
                  France. And I think it is tied to those wonderful journeymen who are
                  considered to have journedy there, and there are SEVEN of them
                  mentioned in the boat: the Magdalene, Mary, Martha, Lazarus, Joseph
                  of Arimethea, and the body of Anne, the Mother of the Virgin. This
                  SEVEN could indeed be the seven, that meet the five Rishis. I am
                  still not in the place of holding to the idea that these seven left
                  in a boat with no oars and so forth. I think it is an explaantion as
                  to the msytery although I do not know for sure. Somehow it could be
                  that the people were trying to express a new 'feeling' of sorts that
                  came from Palestine to France by way of the spirit, water. I do not
                  know as I am not looking yet.

                  Upon waking this morning I found my self looking for Paulo Cuelo's
                  book The Pilgrimage. And sure enough it was from France to Spain. And
                  it is considered to be the road to be guided by one St. James and the
                  Magdalene. We spoke on this before here at AT but I never connected
                  the people in the boat with the story of the Rosecrucians. And that
                  would make sense to me as to why it is a hidden secret: people would
                  directly connect the Feminine Mysteries at a time before it was
                  planted securely in the hearts of those that would awaken to it
                  today. Well, these are my thoughtx as to a possibility as to why.

                  All good things,
                  Dottie
                • dottie zold
                  ... considered to have journedy there, and there are SEVEN of them ... Ooops, I forgot the handmaiden: Sarai, whether in body or spirit I have no idea. d
                  Message 8 of 8 , Aug 2, 2005
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                    > So, I think it is possible that the place we are speaking of is
                    > France. And I think it is tied to those wonderful journeymen who are
                    considered to have journedy there, and there are SEVEN of them
                    > mentioned in the boat: the Magdalene, Mary, Martha, Lazarus, Joseph
                    > of Arimethea, and the body of Anne, the Mother of the Virgin. This
                    > SEVEN could indeed be the seven, that meet the five Rishis.

                    Ooops, I forgot the handmaiden: Sarai, whether in body or spirit I have
                    no idea.

                    d
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