- Jun 11, 2010I'm thinking Paul is Hagar's son.I am also thinking that John was born in bondage hence father unable to speak and Jesus was born free hence the lineage of Sarai.Paul goes to Arabia before he goes to Damascus and in Arabia we find Hagar.What is the relationship between Paul and Hagar?d"Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
--- On Thu, 6/10/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...> wrote:
From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...>
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Hypothesis: Ita Wegman is Gilgamesh - True or False?
Date: Thursday, June 10, 2010, 12:19 PM
In each incarnation you handle karmic deficiencies. These deficiencies are lack in your higher I, and you are a projection of Your higher 'I' down into the physical world.
You normally have two incarnations in each star sign, one in each sex, until you have been through it all and you have found your real sex and have no sexual oriented complexes back.
As you are a projection of your higher I, your character don't change much from life to life, except maybe for young souls. The more developed the stronger the character, the more the problems is a refinement from the previous life. Astrologically seen, there don't need to be much changed from the last life, if the center is strong. Many of the trials will be repetitions from the last life or trials which wasn't solved in the last incarnation, so the chart's can be much alike.
--- Den tors 10/6/10 skrev dottie zold <dottie_z@...>:
Fra: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
Emne: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Hypothesis: Ita Wegman is Gilgamesh - True or False?
Dato: torsdag 10. juni 2010 20.25MMmmmmmmm the character does indeed change but not the focus of its committment to Christ. The character has to change or what is the use of reincarnation? I have found in my own past biographies exactly where I have changed and I could recognize after pondering for some time once I recognized a past biography what it was that I was doing in thsi lifetime that had to be transformed. So the old characteristic of a certain stubborness had to be changed to magnanimity in moments of thinking one had to control a certain element of a thing. That stubborness is a part of the character that had to change and then it was transformed into something more becoming of the committment to serve Christ and mankind, to become a vessel more aligned with the higher self connected to Christ and the cosmic beings. It can be seen in the magi and shepherd journey.Got to watch the tongue Kim,All good things,Dottie
"Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
--- On Thu, 6/10/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Hypothesis: Ita Wegman is Gilgamesh - True or False?
To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Thursday, June 10, 2010, 11:00 AM
I don't understand how it's become truth for many that Gilgamesh should be Sigune, without any public accessible documentation or any logic explanation for how the World Hero Gilgamesh became the lady Sigune who sends others in the death, instead of taking the fight herself as Hypatia or Jeanne d'Arc, or as a Wegman who is no hero either.
Each incarnation build typically on the two previous incarnations, and that means that character don't deviate much from the previous incarnation, the environment and the inheritance can change but the character don't change so much.
--- Den ons 9/6/10 skrev dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>:
Fra: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
Emne: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Hypothesis: Ita Wegman is Gilgamesh - True or False?
Til: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
Dato: onsdag 9. juni 2010 17.17Kim I've never related Ms. Wegman to that nor Rudolf Steiner mainly because it's a difficult story for me. There is a little Goethe in it for me with the Green Snake and the Beautiful Lily that I can relate to somewhat but still difficult.As a side note I want to say that I think that the endearment Rudolf Steiner used with Ms. Wegman, Mysa, I am thinking has to do with Melissa, the Queen Bee....that' s what came to me in a moment of reflection on a thing.I believe on the Parcifalian time incarnation I believe I've read Rudolf Steiner relating that someone from the audience one time shouted out Schiotelander. ...or some name, cannot recall, and Rudolf Steiner noted that it made him aware of his relationship to said personality. ..I believe this might be related in Schurer's book The Great Initiates... .not sure.And on that note we see Steiner's moment of recollection when he was in Rome I believe seeing the Sistine Chapel where he encounters what is said to be the Madonna with the Christ draped over her knee.....and this is the same picture of Schiotelander and Sigune.All good things,DottieAll good things,Dottie"Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
--- On Wed, 6/9/10, Kim <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
From: Kim <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Hypothesis: Ita Wegman is Gilgamesh - True or False?
To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Wednesday, June 9, 2010, 2:03 AMI am a little sceptical about the rumors around the Ita Wegman - Gilgamesh relation, aren't there any written first or second hand documentation available on the net? I can't understand that the rumors fly around without a single evidence, just the few lines from the original sources, it can't be much. In this connection I would like references to the incarnations of Schionatulander, Sigune, and Parcival as well.KimPS! More on Who are Gilgamesh and Enkidu
Ita Wegman is Gilgamesh What do we know? Source Comments Gilgamesh Gilgamesh is the archetypal Hero, creator of world karma. Eabani Eabani is the archetypal Teacher, creator of world karma. Gilgamesh becomes Alexander Rudolf Steiner Alexander and Gilgamesh are two world movers, that created world karma.
Gilgamesh is the most developed man on Earth, who has went deepest into the material world. Member of the seven sages and a Giant.
Eabani/Enkidu is a world mover, but he incarnated to help Gilgamesh. Eabani is a Luciferic incarnation as he still have direct connection to the spiritual, he has not entered deeply into the physical world yet. Member of the seven sages and a Giant. As teacher, the world mover Aristotle gave Alexander the foundation to change the world. Hypatia Hypatia is a Heroine, creating world karma. Hypatia becomes Marie Steiner ? Marie Steiner is neither a heroine nor kreating world karma. Hypatia becomes CR Kim gm 1 Both heroes. Friedrich Rittelmeyer: Imitatio Christi. Could be incarnated as CR. Time matches. Alexander becomes Hypatia Kim gm 2 Both heroes. Alexander started Alexandria and Hypatia ended it.
My interpretation from Occult History 3.
Hypatia becomes Aquinas Kim gm 3 Both Teachers. It was a scholarly incarnation. Occult History could also be interpreted in this direction. Hypatia becomes Albertus Magnus Sergei O. Prokofieff A guess? No references. Mysa An unknown disciple of Cratylos. Mysa was Gilgamesh Ita Wegman ? She is either a primary or secondary helper, nothing like a hero or world mover is signaled here. Two people who incarnates synchronic have the same relative gender when they incarnate. Steiner is Cratylos, so Gilgamesh should be male. Is this the formulation or is it Artemusia who is said to be Gilgamesh. Artemusia Should be another name for Mysa. Artemusia was Gilgamesh Ita Wegman ? How is this information formulated. Mysa is Artemusia Ita Wegman ? How is this information formulated. Artemusia is the same as Artemisia Artemisia could be Gilgamesh, as she may be a world mover. She was advisor to Xerxes, even though Xerces is a better candidate for Gilgamesh. Alternative Hypothesis:
Gilgamesh is Maitreya
- Twin Peaks, the mount Mashu, mount Meru connection. Both are Heroes and world movers. Alternative Hypothesis:
Gilgamesh is Christian Rosenkreutz
- Gilgamesh and CR had same kind of incarnations. Christian Rosenkreutz is the highest developed man on Earth.Friedrich Rittelmeyer, ..., daß er einige der späteren Inkarnationen des Christian Rosenkreutz kenne. Es seien allesamt Märtyrer-Inkarnationen gewesen. Diese Individualitä t wollte dadurch die, „imitatio Christi", die Nachfolge Christi, bis zum äußersten vollziehen. How good a source is Ita Wegman? Federicco: There is reason to be skeptical about Wegman's objectivity because of her position with regard to Steiner.
It does not make sense that the greatest guides on earth would have been here only a few times, when for example we know the greatest guides are continuously here.
It may be acceptable the series of individualities but it is not reasonable that it be so limited as just 4 or 5. Something does not fit.1. From Occult History lecture 3 - Hypatia
From Alexander we must go back to Gilgamish and say: in Gilgamish is the individuality who then, projected as it were on the physical plane, appears as Alexander; behind this individuality is a Fire-Spirit who uses him as an instrument. And if we go hark from Aristotle, we see the powers of the old clairvoyance working in Eabani, the friend of Gilgamish. Thus we see how both old souls and young souls, with the old clairvoyance behind them, are placed right out on the physical plane in the Greek epoch. This confronts us vividly in the great woman mathematician Hypatia, in whom all the mathematical and philosophical wisdom of her time lived as personal ability, as personal erudition and wisdom. This was all embraced in the personality of Hypatia. And we shall understand that this individuality had to be born as a woman in order to bring together in a delicately concise form all that she had earlier received from the Orphic Mysteries — in order to impart to everything she had learnt from the Inspirers of those Mysteries the stamp of a personal style.
We see, therefore, how in the successive incarnations of human beings influences from the spiritual world bring about modifications. I can do not more than intimate that the individuality who incarnated as Hypatia, who brought with her the wisdom of the Orphic Mysteries and gave personal expression to it, was called upon in a subsequent incarnation to take the opposite path: to bear all personal wisdom upwards again to the divine-spiritual. Hypatia appeared at the turn of the 12th and 13th century as a significant, universal spirit of later history, one who had a great influence upon the knowledge that brings together science and philosophy. — Thus we see how the Powers operating in the course of history penetrate into the successive incarnations of particular individualities.
Observing the course of history in this way we actually see a kind of descent from spiritual heights until the Greco-Latin epoch, and then again an ascent. During the Greek epoch — and it has continued, naturally, into our own time — there is a gathering together of material to be acquired purely from the physical plane and then a carrying up of it again into the spiritual world. For this, Spiritual Science should provide an impulse — an impulse that was already alive instinctively in a personality such as Hypatia, when she was incarnated again in the 13th century.2. Occult History: Lecture 1 - Hypatia
3. Ancient Greek Online library | Urania by Herodotus | page 22 - Artemisia
Among the pupils of the Orphic Mysteries was the loveable personality of whom I am speaking, whose earthly name has not come down to posterity, but who stands out clearly as a pupil of these Mysteries. Already in youth and then for many years, this person was closely connected with all the Greek Orphics during the period preceding that of Greek philosophy — a period of which no account is given in books an the history of philosophy. For what is recorded of Thales and Heraclitus is an echo of what the Mystery-pupils had accomplished in their way at an earlier period. And one of the pupils of the Orphic Mysteries was the individual of whom I have just spoken, whose pupil in turn was Pherecydes of Syros, referred to in the lecture-course given at Munich last year: The East in the light of the West [see Note 9]
Investigation of the Akasha Chronicle reveals that the individuality of that pupil of the Orphic Mysteries was reincarnated in the 4th century A.D. We find this individuality amid the activity and life of those gathered together in Alexandria, the Orphic secrets now transformed into personal experiences of the loftiest kind. It is very remarkable how all the Orphic secrets were transformed into personal experiences in this new incarnation. At the end of the 4th century, A.D., we find this individuality reborn as the daughter of a great mathematician, Theon. We see how there flashes up in her soul all that could be experienced of the Orphic Mysteries through vision of the great mathematical, light-woven texture of the universe. All this was now personal talent, personal genius. These faculties had now to be of so personal a character that it was necessary even for this individuality to have a mathematician as father in order that something might be received from heredity.Thus we look back to times when man was still in living connection with the spiritual worlds, as was this Orphic pupil; and we see the shadow-image of this pupil among those who taught in Alexandria at the end of the 4th and the beginning of the 5th century A.D. This individuality had as yet experienced nothing that enabled men at that time to see beyond the shadow-sides of Christianity at its beginning. For all that had remained in this soul as an echo of the Orphic Mysteries was still too powerful to enable any Illumination to be received from that other Light, the new Christ Event. What arose round about as Christianity, represented by men of the type of Theophilus and Cyril, was in truth of such a nature that this Orphic individuality, working now with personal faculties, had things far greater, far richer in wisdom to say and to give than those who represented Christianity in Alexandria at that time.
Theophilus and Cyril were both filled with the deepest hatred of everything that was not Christian in the narrow ecclesiastical sense in which these two bishops, in particular, understood it. Christianity had assumed in them such an entirely personal character that these two patriarchs levied hirelings in their service; men were collected from far and near to form bodyguards for them. Their aim was power in its most personal sense. They were utterly obsessed by hatred of what originated in ancient times and yet was so much greater than the new that was appearing in caricatured shape. The deepest hatred was directed by the dignitaries of Christianity in Alexandria against the individuality of the reborn Orphic pupil. The fact that she was branded as a black magician will not therefore surprise us. But that was enough to incite the whole mob of hirelings against the noble, unique figure of the reborn pupil of the Orphic Mysteries. She was still young, but in spite of her youth, in spite of the fact that she was obliged to undergo much that in those days, too, imposed great hardships an a woman during a long period of study, she found her way upwards to the light that outshone all the wisdom, all the knowledge existing in those days. And it was wonderful how in the lecture halls of Hypatia — for such was the name of this reincarnated Orphic pupil — the purest, most luminous wisdom in Alexandria was presented to the enraptured listeners. She drew to her feet not only the Pagans, bat also Christians of deep and penetrating insight, such as Synesius. She was an influence of outstanding significance, and the revival of the old Pagan wisdom of Orpheus transformed into personality could be experienced in Alexandria in the figure of Hypatia.
World-karma was working in the truest sense symbolically. What had constituted the secret of her Initiation was now projected, mirrored, on the physical plane. And here we come to an event that is symbolically significant in the case of many things that have taken place in historical times. We come to one of those events that is seemingly only a martyrdom, but is in reality a symbol in which spiritual forces, spiritual intimations are coming to expression.
On a day in March in the year 415 A.D., Hypatia fell victim to the fury of these who formed the entourage of the patriarch of Alexandria. They resolved to rid themselves of her power, of her spiritual power. The utterly uncivilised, wild hordes were rushed in from the environs of Alexandria as well, and the chaste young sage was fetched away under false pretences. She mounted the chariot, and at a given sign the enflamed rabble fell upon her, tore off her clothing, dragged her into a church, and literally tore the flesh from her bones. The fragments of her body were then scattered around the city by these hordes, completely dehumanised by their rapacious passions. Such was the fate of the great woman philosopher, Hypatia.
Symbolically, so to say, there is indicated here something that is deeply connected with the founding of Alexandria by Alexander the Great — although it happened a long time after the actual founding of the city. In this event, important secrets of the 4th Post-Atlantean epoch are reflected. This epoch, destined as it was to represent the dissolution, the sweeping-away, of the old, contained so much that was great and significant, and with paradoxical grandeur placed before the world a most pregnant symbol in the slaughter — one can call it nothing else — of Hypatia, the outstanding woman at the turn of the 4th-5th centuries of our era.
Answering Mardonius, therefore, "that he would consider his counsel, and let him know which course he might prefer," Xerxes proceeded to consult with the chief men among the Persians; and because Artemisia on the former occasion had shown herself the only person who knew what was best to be done, he was pleased to summon her to advise him now.
Spiritual teachers and helpers
TeachersIn many religions there have talked about a group of twelve persons who are the main teachers, they are called Bodhisattvas, Avatars, Rigden Kings, Eight Taoist Immortals, Jacobs sons + Dinah, The Greek Sages, The Counselors, Twelve Disciples + Magdalene, and The Knights of King Arthur's Round Table+Guinevere.
Besides the twelve Bodhisatvas there was one woman, but only in connection with the Taoist Immortals is she named as Bodhisattva, but she is always mentioned.
Of these twelve there was always 7 incarnated. Becomes eight with the woman immortal.
Of these twelve there were two who represented wisdom and Love, and maybe a third representing Will:Red and Blue Stole by Bernard Lievengoed.Helpers
Around these twelve there are the 72 primary helpers, The 72 disciples of Confucius, and in Taoism.
Around them there are mentioned 144000 secondary helpers.
These numbers have also an astrological and time related meaning, but as everything is living, the physical is our interpretation of the spiritual, the numbers are real, not abstract.
The Knights of King Arthur's Round Table
In the dawn of the fifth epoch, accordingly, there were persons who, not exactly through their training but through certain mysterious influences, became the instruments, the vehicles, of cosmic influences issuing from the Sun and Moon during their passage through the signs of the Zodiac. The secrets that could then be won for the human soul through these individuals were a repetition of what had once been experienced through the Sentient Soul. And the persons who expressed the transit of the cosmic forces through the signs of the Zodiac were those called â€œThe Knights of King Arthur's Round Tableâ€�. Twelve in number, they had around them a band of other men, but they were the principal Knights. The others represented the starry host; into them flowed the inspirations which were more distantly distributed in cosmic space; and into the twelve Knights flowed the inspirations from the twelve directions of the Zodiac. The inspirations which came from the spiritual forces of the Sun and Moon were represented by King Arthur and his wife Guinevere.
Pistis Sophia: The twelve saviours of the Treasury of the LightOf the souls of the disciples and their incarnation."For this cause have I chosen you verily from the beginning through the First Mystery. Rejoice then and exult, for when I set out for the world, I brought from the beginning with me twelve powers, as I have told you from the beginning, which I have taken from the twelve saviours of the Treasury of the Light, according to the command of the First Mystery. These then I cast into the womb of your mothers, when I came into the world, that is those which are in your bodies to-day. For these powers have been given unto you before the whole world, because ye are they who will save the whole world, and that ye may be able to endure the threat of the rulers of the world and the pains of the world and its dangers and all its persecutions, which the rulers of the height will bring upon you. For many times have I said unto you that I have brought the power in you out of the twelve saviours who are in the Treasury of the Light. For which cause I have said unto you indeed from the beginning that ye are not of the world. I also am not of it. For all men who are in the world have gotten their souls out of [the power of] the rulers of the Ã¦ons. But the power which is in you is from me; your souls belong to the height. I have brought twelve powers of the twelve saviours of the Treasury of the Light, taking them out of the portion of my power which I did first receive. And when I had set forth for the world, I came into the midst of the rulers of the sphere and had the form of GabriÄ"l the angel of the Ã¦ons; and the rulers of the Ã¦ons did not know me, but they thought that I was the angel GabriÄ"l.
The chosen ones
Some would say that these l44 000 persons are in heaven. No, they are now here, on earth; they are incarnated among the intelligent people. Some of them are writers; others, poets or men of science; and all of them push humanity forward on the path toward the new idea, toward the Divine.
Red and Blue StoleRed and Blue Mantle by Bernard Lievengoed:On the left stands Christian Rosenkreutz with a blue stole; on the right, Rudolf Steiner with a red stole.And from Cosmic Sophia, and Human Anthroposophia by Adriana Koulias:Rudolf Steiner once characterized his relationship to Christian Rosenkreutz thus: a supersensible altar in the spiritual world and beside it on the left stands Christian Rosenkreutz in a blue stole and on the right, Rudolf Steiner in a red stole. These are the garments, blue and red of the Mary Sophia.36 Think of Raphael' Sistine Madonna. She wears a cloak, a Palla that is blue and red. This is indicative of the Blue Blood and Red Blood â€" the Joachim and Boaz, and points to the future thinking heart in which an Etherisation of the blood will take place which is the result of the unification of thinking (blue) and feeling (red) through the light of the Holy spirit that in man is the Spirit Self.
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