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44006Re: Anthroposophia as method, 17

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  • Dan M.
    Mar 31, 2010
      Frank :...Forgot...: "De donde venimos?"

      In Romanian :"De unde venim?" :)



      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith" <eltrigal78@...> wrote:
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      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "asbolo" <jarevilla@> wrote:
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      > > The Peruvian tale you mention where the Virgin and the child changed into a rock reminded me of Miguel Angel Asturias "Hombres de MaĆ­z" (Maize Men): http://www.literaturaguatemalteca.org/arias18.htm
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      > Very interesting article, Juan. I never heard of Asturias, so I guess they were successful in relegating him to the forgotten because of his politics. Something similar was attempted with Borges - unsuccessfully, but he never won the Noble. So Asuruas was looking for the "alma nacional" - and decided it was of the Incas. It revives an old question for me. Do the American countries even have national souls - or is it a European concept which is not applicable to the melting pots? The Mary here is Maria la lluvia. But why do they call her "la Piojosa Grande"? Also: "Quienes somos y para donde vamos?" Forgot: "De donde venimos?"
      > I think I learned more about Guatemala from this piece than I ever knew before. Reminds me of many years ago when I lived in Germany. A Waldorf teacher called me and invited me to her place for tea. She also invited a from of mine, an Argentine chemist who was in Germany working with biodynamics investigations. We were both happy to go, because we hadn't seen each other for some time. This was in Frankfurt where I lived, but he had to travel an hour by train. It was during the Nicaraguan socialist revolution and the teacher (an idealist) was thinking of going there as a volunteer. She had invited us to ask us, as experts, what was really going on there. We looked at each other and restrained from laughing. We explained to her that she probably knew more about Nicaragua than we did, that Argentina is very far from Nicaragua and we knew nothing about it except what we read in the papers.
      > Frank
      > P.S. I like your answer below.
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      > > Are these mythical characters or goddesses the same being as Mary, the mother of Jesus in the Gospel of Luke?
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      > > Before I can provide an intellectual answer to this, I would like to consider briefly the visions associated with the apparitions and revelations, which I have not considered before.
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      > > The individuals who usually have these revelations or visions have not, as a rule, developed their intellectual faculties, their clairvoyance is instinctive or atavistic. They are being hit or invaded by an elemental force that appears to them as a person, but the appearance of this person --or what the person says to be-- is not what makes it "true; what makes the vision "true" in the eyes of the witness is the force itself which is immediately recognized as familiar by the astral and etheric bodies without the intervention of the intellect or of consciousness.
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      > > The question of the identity of this person is an intellectual one, and I think is the wrong way to approach the problem. The vision assumes a very specific appearance and language taken from the witness astral and etheric *unused* forces, and partakes of the astral and etheric forces of the place, so we may think of it as "syncretic", but in my opinion its immediate appearance or spoken words are not important from the spiritual point of view. The important thing to understand is not the content of the vision but the force itself, how this force interacts with us.
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      > > Now I can answer your question. I need to look at it in the following way: Is this elemental force the same as that of the ancient goddesses and myths? -- Yes in the visions, not in my descriptions. Is this force Mary the mother of Jesus? -- Not at first in the visions, although with time it develops or can develop into her; in my descriptions the answer is "Yes, I think it is". Why in both cases? The answer or clue is how we relate to the experience, what role or position our *I* or consciousness and our freedom is playing in the experience.
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      > > Juan
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      > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith" <eltrigal78@> wrote:
      > > > Hi Juan, I don't disagree with what you wrote. I only ask myself to what extent the Marian apparitions are related to other virgin goddesses in other cultures, fe Cavillace of the Incas who was a virgin goddess who ate a fruit, which was actually the sperm of Coniraya, the moon god. When she gave birth to a son, she demanded that the father step forward. No one did, so she put the baby on the ground and it crawled towards Coniraya. She was ashamed because of Coniraya's low stature among the gods, and ran to the coast of Peru, where she changed herself and her son into rocks. Or the Greek virgin goddesses (at least the Greeks did not necessarily equate virginity with celibacy, rather purity of soul). Or, to put it somewhat differently, is the Marian deity whom the people of Central America venerate really Miriam, mother of Yeshua of Nazareth, whom the Catholic Church introduced to them, or a more culturally universal archetype.
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      > > > Frank
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