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43033Re: SV: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lilith & Logic

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  • Kim Graae Munch
    Feb 13, 2010
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      I don't remember Paulinas involvement.
      The idea about the femininity came from Christ and the Spiritual World: The Search for the Holy Grail in conjunction with the description of Kuan Yin, and the knowledge that the feminine had to be hidden somewhere. The compassion of Kuan Yin and the Nathan Jesus soul were described so like that it gave rise to the theory:
      The Being of whom we have said that he had not chosen the path down from the planets to the Earth, but had remained behind, the Being who later appeared as the Nathan Jesus-child and who had dwelt from primal ages in the spiritual worlds — this Being resolved (if we may use this expression, for of course all these expressions are taken from human speech and cannot fully convey what one wants to say) while still in the world of the higher Hierarchies to go through a development which would enable him to be permeated for a time by the Christ Being. Thus we have to do not with a man but with a superhuman Being who (if we may speak in this way) lived in the spiritual world and as it were heard the distress of the human sense system crying out to the spiritual world for help, and in response to this cry made himself fitted to be permeated by the Christ.
      ...
      So again something had to happen in the spiritual worlds in order that this destructive activity should not enter into human life. And this same Being, who later appeared as the Nathan Jesus-child and who (as we have explained) dwelt in earlier times on the Sun and was there permeated by the Christ Being, the sublime Sun-Spirit — this Being went from planet to planet, touched in his innermost nature by the fact that human evolution could go no further, as things were. And this experience affected him so strongly, while he was assuming a form of body on the different planets, that at a certain time during the Atlantean evolution the Spirit of Christ permeated him again. And through what was now brought about by the permeation of this Being by the Christ Spirit, it became possible for moderation to be implanted in the vital organs of man. In the same way that wisdom had been given to the sense-organs, so moderation was now bestowed on the vital organs. Thus it came about that when a man breathed in a particular place, he was not impelled to suck in the air greedily, or to recoil with loathing from the air in another place. That was the deed accomplished in the spiritual worlds through a further permeation of the Nathan Jesus-child by the Christ Being, the high Sun-Spirit.
      ...

      Help for these soul-forces had to be provided from the spiritual world. And now the soul of that Being who later became the Nathan Jesus-child assumed a cosmic form such that his life was in a sense neither on the Moon nor on the Sun, but as though it encircled the Earth and felt a dependence on the influences of Sun, Moon and Earth at the same time. The Earth influences came to him from below; the Sun and Moon influences from above. Clairvoyant observation really sees this Being, in the spring time of his evolution — if I may use that phrase — in the same sphere as that in which the Moon goes round the Earth. Hence I cannot say exactly that the Moon influence came to him from above, but rather that it came to him from the place where he was, this pre-earthly Jesus-Being. Again there rose to him a cry of distress, a cry that told of what human thinking, feeling and willing were on the way to becoming; and he sought to experience completely in his own inner being this tragedy of human evolution. Thereby he called to himself the high Sun-spirit, who now for the third time descended upon him, permeating him. So in the cosmic height, beyond the Earth, there was a third permeation of this Nathan Jesus-child by the high Sun Spirit whom we call the Christ.

          ...

      And the essential thing about the initiation of Zarathustra was that he perceived the activity of the Sun impregnated with this influence. [kim: this last oneis interesting as it connects Zarathustra with the third deed!]


      Most writings about the Nathan Jesus talks about a man, who had not been born before, but if we read this "Newborn Might and Strength Everlasting " and the following text's, it's much much more:

      In the Nathan Jesus boy we see the Child of Humanity, the Being of mankind who was left behind when humanity descended into earthly incarnations before the approach of the Tempter or luciferic principle. He was the Child who was left behind in the spiritual world, remaining, as it were, in the childhood stage of mankind until the time had come for his birth as that exceptional human being, the Nathan Jesus. He appeared then for the first time as a human being in an earthly body, and soon after birth addressed his mother in a language that could be understood only by her. Considering the different way things are understood today, it will be gradually realized how necessary it is to look up to the Heavenly Child who is worshiped in the Nathan Jesus boy. It was he who had remained behind with all the primal qualities man possessed before the Temptation, and it was he who entered the world endowed with all these qualities. In him, we can see mankind as a whole as it was in its childhood. We must bear this in mind if we wish to understand what simple folk felt when they saw the Heavenly Child glorified in such a play.

      In The Bhagavad Gita and the Epistles of St. Paul Steiner describes the relation between Krishna and Christ, that Nathan Jesus is Krishna, and together with the previous text, we see that he is humanity as such, as a single being!
      The only time this sister-soul of Adam was compelled to appear and to become physically visible, it was incorporated, so to speak, in Krishna; and then it was incorporated again in the Luke-Jesus. So now we can understand how it was that Krishna spoke in such a superhuman manner, why he is the best teacher for the human ego, why he represents, so to speak, a victory over the ego, why he appears so psychically sublime. It is because he appears as human being at that sublime moment which we brought before our souls in the lecture before last, as Man not yet descended into human incarnations. He then appears again to be embodied in the Luke-Jesus. Hence that perfection that came about when the most significant world-conceptions of Asia, the ego of Zarathustra and the spirit of Krishna, were united in the twelve-year- old Jesus described by St. Luke. He who spoke to the learned men in the Temple was therefore not only Zarathustra speaking as an ego, but one who spoke from those sources from which Krishna at one time drew Yoga; he spoke of Yoga raised a stage higher; he united himself with the Krishna force, with Krishna himself, in order to continue to grow until his thirtieth year. Then only have we that complete, perfected body which could be taken possession of by the Christ. Thus do the spiritual currents of humanity flow together. So that in what happened at the Mystery of Golgotha, we really have a co-operation of the most important leaders of mankind, a synthesis of spirit-life. When St. Paul had his vision before Damascus, He Who appeared to him then was the Christ. The halo of light in which Christ was enveloped was Krishna. And because Christ has taken Krishna for His own soul-covering through which He then works on further, therefore in the light which shone there, in Christ Himself, there is all that was once upon a time contained in the sublime Gita.

      Steiner tells about who Krishna was:

      Now if you think of what may live in a man of our present cycle of humanity as the deepest part of his being, which every man can dimly sense as those secret forces within him which can raise him up to soul-heights; if we think of this, which in most men exists only in rudiment, becoming in a very rare case the essential principle of a human being-a being who only appears from time to time to become a leader of other men, who is higher than all the Manus, who dwells as an essence in every man, but who' as an actual external personality only appears once in a cosmic epoch; if we can form such a conception as this, we are getting nearer to the being of Krishna. He is man as a whole; he is � one might almost say � humanity as such, thought of as a single being. Yet he is no abstract being. When people today speak of mankind in general, they speak of it in the abstract, because they themselves are abstract thinkers. The abstract being is we ourselves today, ensnared as we are in the sense-world, and this has become our common destiny. When one speaks of mankind in general, one has only an indistinct perception and not a living idea of it. Those who speak of Krishna as of man in general, do not mean the abstract idea one has in one's mind today. "No," they say, "true, this Being lives in germ in every man, but he only appears as an individual man, and speaks with the mouth of a man once in every cosmic age. "But with this Being it is not a question of the external fleshly body, or the more refined elemental body, or the forces of the sense-organs, or Ahamkara and Manas, but the chief thing is that which in Budhi and Manas is directly connected with the great universal cosmic substance, with the divine which lives and weaves through the world.
      In "The Bhagavad Gita and the Epistles of St. Paul" Steiner tells further, clarifying what really happened when we were joined with what had been left behind when we incarnated in the physical:
      That which, after the Mystery of Golgotha, a man had to look for as the Christ-Impulse in himself, which he had to find in the Pauline sense: "Not I, but Christ in me," that he had, before the Mystery of Golgotha, to look for outside, he had to look for it coming to him as a revelation from cosmic distances. The further we go back into the ages, the more brilliant, the more impulsive was the revelation from without. We may therefore say: In the ages before the Mystery of Golgotha, a certain revelation came to mankind like sunshine falling upon an object from without. Just as the light falls upon this object, so did the light of the spiritual sun fall from without upon the soul of man, and enlightened it. After the Mystery of Golgotha we can speak of that which works in the soul as Christ-Impulse, as the spiritual sunlight, as though we saw a self-illumined body before us radiating its light from within. If we look at it thus, the fact of the Mystery of Golgotha becomes a significant boundary line in human evolution. We can represent
      Diagram 1 and 2

      the whole connection, symbolically. If we take this circle (Diagram 1) as representing the human soul, we may say that the spiritual light streams in from without from all sides into this human soul. Then comes the Mystery of Golgotha, after which the soul possesses the Christ-Impulse in itself and radiates Forth that which is contained in the Christ-Impulse (Diagram 2). Just as a drop which is illumined from all sides radiates and reflects this illumination, so does the soul appear before the Christ-Impulse. As a flame which is alight within and radiates forth its light, thus does the soul appear after the Mystery of Golgotha, if it has been able to receive the Christ-Impulse.

      --- Den lør 13/2/10 skrev dottie zold <dottie_z@...>:

      Fra: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
      Emne: Re: SV: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lilith & Logic
      Til: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      Dato: lørdag 13. februar 2010 08.19

       

      The Nathan Jesus as I understand was the Being saved from the Fall, the sister soul of Adam...I believe Rudolf Steiner specifically speaks of this doesn't he? But I recall that Paulina, blessed be she, had an issue with something Kim....do you recall what that was?
       
      All good things,
      Dottie

      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



      --- On Fri, 2/12/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

      From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
      Subject: SV: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith & Logic
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Friday, February 12, 2010, 8:47 PM



      The problem lies in your facts, not in the logic, that also the reason for the prerequisite, that you always should be ready to change the theory, love to change your theory, as it is a sign that you have acquired new knowledge.
      Concerning the absurd belief that Nathan Jesus was a feminine spiritual layer in the Christ being, that it was Sophia, was a thesis I developed together with Dottie and is documented by taz, but if we follow Sherlock Holmes:
      when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?
      Dottie mentioned the theory within the last month, so it still alive.
      My logic did help, it was just a step on the way, as I could modify the theory after some thinking and new evidence, if I didn't have a theory, even if it was wrong, i couldn't extend my knowledge. In research you will constantly be wrong on some points, but you will extend the area you are right all the time.
      Kim

      --- Den lør 13/2/10 skrev Frank <eltrigal78@yahoo. com>:

      Fra: Frank <eltrigal78@yahoo. com>
      Emne: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith & Logic
      Til: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Dato: lørdag 13. februar 2010 01.24

       


      --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, "Kim" <kimgm@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thats the way I work, also professionally in the IT industry, I always
      > build on a theory, and every time I get new information I modify it.
      > The worst problem I have had with my esoteric understanding was when I
      > believed that the Nathan Jesus was female, it was difficult to get out
      > of that dead end, but normally I have no problems revising my theories,
      > as I am looking for truth and understanding; with preferred solutions I
      > would never learn anything new.
      > Kim

      The problem with logic (which I'm by no means against, I think it's great, even underrated) is that it doesn't always reveal the truth. Something could be completely logical as still not be true. If logic always revealed the truth, we'd all be Hawkinses. An example:? If you once thought that the Nathan Jesus was feminine, I assume you had some logical reason for thinking so. But it's so absurd from the get-go, that your logic didn't help much.
      Frank
      ____________ _

      >
      > --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, dottie zold
      > <dottie_z@> wrote:
      > >
      > > And Kim, you dabble to much. I dabble to much as well as we both seek
      > the mystery....but we have to try and make ourselves wrong before we
      > come to a possible truth....and sometimes we have to make ourselves
      > wrong over and over and over again....I had Bradford for that. I was
      > clobbered constantly and although much of what I said did bear out it
      > there was that which did not bear me out and so this clobbering really
      > taught me to make myself wrong when someone else shows me something that
      > might counter what I think I found to be true....I think that way serves
      > and I keep sharing that with you but I feel it does not find a home in
      > you.
      > >
      > > Love,
      > > Dottie
      > >
      > >
      > > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work
      > out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- On Thu, 2/11/10, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@ wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@
      > > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
      > > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      > > Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 8:48 PM
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Dottie: Can you please share with me what a meditative work is from
      > Mr. Daskalos that you or others are working with?
      > > Kim: I am not working with Daskalos' meditative work, it looks like
      > everything else I have seen, what I stated was that his explanation of
      > the elementals was consistent with practical esoteric work, inclusive
      > meditations, and with that I mean the methods you use to clear you mind
      > for debris. But here are references to what I have made on Elementals,
      > and the Daskalos ref. is good and contains stuff not elsewhere on the
      > net.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > How are Rudolf Steiner and the Ahrimanian spirits connected to these
      > elementals? Elementals and Ahrimanian Spirits
      > > And how does Jung describe these beings? Elementals and the Shadow of
      > Jung
      > > Even the Sufi's tells about them: Elementals and the Nafs of the
      > Sufi's
      > > Christ mentions them also: Elementals and Christ
      > > The text down here: Elementals in Gnostic and Toltec clothes
      > > The description of Elementals within healing by Daskalos: Elementals
      > and the HealerDottie: ...if you are putting up to Steiner in the sense
      > that Steiner is 'inconsistant' adn Daskalos is consistant regarding
      > elemental beings...
      > > Kim: Daskalos' elementals are consistent with Steiners Ahrimanian
      > beings.
      > >
      > > Dottie:...what we like and what we dislike and what....well you know
      > its an objecitve logic with warmth that must win the day.....not just
      > logic that meets our own...
      > > Kim: "logic that meets our own" is not logic. Logic is the road to
      > understanding, to truth.
      > > The beauty of mathematics are that it's independent of your own
      > preferences, if it's right it's right. You can only learn to love logic
      > if you love Truth, else you will try to fake logic, and thats not logic.
      > >
      > > Dottie: but here we are with both our own understandings and the only
      > thing I can point out to is my studies with Steiner and how I try my
      > best to be not about my own understandings but what speaks to something
      > higher in me that works past what I think is true and what meets me.....
      > > Kim: Read more on logic by Steiner, as he tells it much better than I
      > and with greater emphasis.
      > >
      > >
      > > Dottie: Have you worked at all with the Foundation Stone Meditation?
      > > No, with "How can.....
      > >
      > > Dottie: Kim, can you please give some works to show that he used
      > Ahriman instead of Jahve? Yes, here:
      > >
      > > The intention was that man should attain knowledge. This could only be
      > brought about through the original Karma. The Luciferic Principle, the
      > Moon Adepts, wanted to develop freedom and independence to an
      > ever-greater degree. This is very beautifully expressed in the saga of
      > Prometheus: (63) Zeus will not allow human beings to get fire.
      > Prometheus however gives them fire, the faculty of developing ever
      > higher and higher. By so doing he condemns man to suffering. Man must
      > now wait for the coming of a Sun Hero, until the Principle of the Sun
      > Hero in the Sixth Race will make him able to develop further without
      > Luciferic knowledge. Those endowed with this higher degree of
      > advancement are like Prometheus, they are Sun Heroes.
      > > We have thus learned to know a two-fold order of human beings: those
      > who succumbed to the Jehovah Principle, the bringing of perfection to
      > the physical Earth, and also spiritual human beings who were becoming
      > more highly developed. Jehovah and Lucifer are engaged in an unceasing
      > battle. It is the intention of Lucifer to develop everything upwards,
      > towards knowledge, towards the light. In Devachan the human being can
      > bring a certain degree of advancement to the Luciferic Principle. The
      > longer he remains in Devachan the more of this can he develop. He must
      > pass through as many incarnations as are necessary in order to bring
      > this Principle fully to perfection.
      > > Thus there exists in the world a Jehovah Principle and a Lucifer
      > Principle. If the Jehovah Principle alone were to be taught, man would
      > succumb to the Earth. If the teaching of reincarnation and karma were
      > allowed to disappear entirely from the Earth we should win back for
      > Jehovah all the Monads and physical man would be given over to the
      > Earth, to a petrified planet. If however one teaches reincarnation and
      > karma, man is led upwards to spiritualisation. Christianity therefore
      > made the absolutely right compromise, and for a period of time did not
      > teach reincarnation and karma, but the importance of the single human
      > existence, in order that man should learn to love the Earth, waiting
      > until he is mature enough for a new Christianity, with the teaching of
      > reincarnation and karma, which is the saving of the Earth and brings the
      > whole of what has been sown into Devachan. As a result, in Christianity
      > itself there is conflict between the two Principles: the one
      > > without reincarnation and karma, the other with this teaching. In the
      > former case, everything which Lucifer could bring about would be taken
      > from human beings. They would actually drop out of reincarnation and
      > turn their backs on the Earth, becoming degenerate angels. In that case
      > the Earth would be going towards its downfall. Were the hosts of Jehovah
      > to be victorious on the Earth, the Earth would remain behind as a kind
      > of Moon, as a rigidified body. The possibility of spiritualisation would
      > then be a missed opportunity. The battle in the Bhagavad Gita (64)
      > describes the conflict between Jehovah and Lucifer and their hosts.
      > > It might still be possible today for the teaching of Christianity
      > without reincarnation and karma to prevail. Then the Earth would be lost
      > for the Principle of Lucifer. The whole earth is still a battlefield of
      > these two principles. The principle that leads the earth towards
      > spirituality is Lucifer. In order to live in accordance with this
      > Principle one must first love the Earth, one must descend on to the
      > Earth. Lucifer is the Prince who reigns in the kingdom of science and
      > art, but he cannot descend altogether on to the Earth: for this, his
      > power does not suffice. Quite alone, it would be impossible for Lucifer
      > to lead upwards what is on the Earth. For this, not only is the power of
      > a Moon Adept necessary, but of a Sun Adept, who embraces the
      > universality of human life, not manifesting only in science and art.
      > Lucifer is represented as the Winged Form of the Dragon; Ezekiel
      > describes him as the Winged Bull.
      > > Now there came a Sun Hero, similar to those who appeared in the
      > Hyperborean Epoch, represented by Ezekiel as the Winged Lion. This Hero,
      > Who gave the second impulse, is the Christ, the Lion out of the tribe of
      > Judah. The representative of the Eagle will come only later; he
      > represents the Father Principle. Christ is a Solar Hero, a Lion-Nature,
      > a Sun Pitri.
      > > The third impulse will be represented by an Adept who was already an
      > Adept on Saturn. Such a one cannot as yet incarnate on the Earth. When
      > man is not only able to develop his higher nature upwards, but working
      > creatively is able to renounce completely his lower nature, then will
      > this highest Adept, the Saturn Adept, the Father Principle, the Hidden
      > God, be able to incarnate. In this text Jahve is seen as Ahriman.
      > Foundations of Esotericism, LECTURE XXIII, Berlin, 25th October 1905
      > >
      > > Kim
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Ahriman
      > >
      > > --- Den fre 12/2/10 skrev dottie zold dottie_z@:
      > >
      > >
      > > Fra: dottie zold dottie_z@
      > > Emne: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
      > > Til: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      > > Dato: fredag 12. februar 2010 03.27
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Kim, can you please give some works to show that he used Ahriman
      > instead of Jahve?
      > >
      > > Can you please share with me what a meditative work is from Mr.
      > Daskalos that you or others are working with? As I have not looked at
      > Mr. Daskalos but he seems to have garned great respect from you if you
      > are putting up to Steiner in the sense that Steiner is 'inconsistant'
      > adn Daskalos is consistant regarding elemental beings, which right away
      > has me concerned with what you deem as logic in relations to
      > words.....but that's all good. Again for me this gets back to
      > lawfullness and moving past our own understanding and what is
      > eternal....and making ourselves wrong and double checking not only our
      > associations but also what we like and what we dislike and what....well
      > you know its an objecitve logic with warmth that must win the
      > day.....not just logic that meets our own...but here we are with both
      > our own understandings and the only thing I can point out to is my
      > studies with Steiner and how I try my best to be not about my own
      > understandings but what
      > > speaks to something higher in me that works past what I think is true
      > and what meets me.....
      > >
      > > Have you worked at all with the Foundation Stone Meditation?
      > >
      > > All good things,
      > > Dottie
      > >
      > >
      > > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work
      > out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- On Thu, 2/11/10, Kim kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > From: Kim kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
      > > Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
      > > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      > > Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 10:48 AM
      > >
      > >
      > > When Steiner still were by the Theosophs he used the name Jahve in
      > stead
      > > of Ahriman, he used the word demons about the Ahrimanic beings.
      > > The description of Daskalos on elementals are so consistent with other
      > > spiritual knowledge, fe in connection with meditative experiences.
      > > Kim
      > >
      > > --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, dottie zold
      > > dottie_z@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Well, it's important to know if who these other esoteric groups are
      > > speaking of is actually Ahriman. Everyone can speak of elementals but
      > > that doesn't mean its Ahriman or the Ahrimanic hosts....could
      > be....but
      > > then again it depends on what authority they speak.
      > > >
      > > > All good things,
      > > > Dottie
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work
      > > out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- On Thu, 2/11/10, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@
      > > > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
      > > > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      > > > Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 6:52 AM
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Yes, it's only Steiner who used the term Ahriman, other esoteric
      > > groups use other terms.
      > > > Kim
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > From: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      > > [mailto:anthroposop hy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of dottie
      > zold
      > > > Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 12:30 AM
      > > > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      > > > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > That makes sense.
      > > >
      > > > All good things,
      > > > Dottie
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work
      > > out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- On Wed, 2/10/10, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. .co.uk> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
      > > > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
      > > > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      > > > Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 11:40 AM
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > He states that you can 'educate' negative elementals, he don't use
      > the
      > > term Ahriman, I do.
      > > > Kim
      > > >
      > > > --- Den ons 10/2/10 skrev dottie zold dottie_z@yahoo. com>:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Fra: dottie zold dottie_z@yahoo. com>
      > > > Emne: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
      > > > Til: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      > > > Dato: onsdag 10. februar 2010 19.40
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > oh okay, so this is where you find Ahriman and the elementals with
      > > Daskalos.... . okay....
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work
      > > out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- On Wed, 2/10/10, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. . .co.uk> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
      > > > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
      > > > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      > > > Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 9:03 AM
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Daskalos tells that you can educate ahrimanian spirits.
      > > > Kim
      > > >
      > > > --- Den ons 10/2/10 skrev Juan Revilla hylonome@racsa. . .co.cr>:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Fra: Juan Revilla hylonome@racsa. co.cr>
      > > > Emne: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lilith
      > > > Til: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      > > > Dato: onsdag 10. februar 2010 17.56
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > The lesser guardian is the Freudian Id, the censor (of subconsious
      > > urges, where the seeds of our karma lie. What is taken as the guardian
      > > (of knowledge) in Castaneda, is a moth that may appear gigantic to
      > you,
      > > and it brings you dust of knowledge, amber hued particles, which I
      > have
      > > managed to see twice. Last summer I caressed a moth on my finger, its
      > > hairy neck, and it eagerly drank the sweat from my finger. This went
      > on
      > > for a long time. The moth is the night butterfly, butterfly being the
      > > Greek psyche and this the nightside of it. The Quran says Jesus will
      > > come back when people lie on the ground like night butterflies, and
      > this
      > > is well what they do in Tensegrity seminars, Mexican Magical Passes
      > > lying on the ground to make the night butterfly moves.
      > > > Mikko
      > > > sounds like a soft, gentle side of Lilith... which makes me wonder:
      > > what do you people think would be examples of a gentle, soft aspect of
      > > Ahriman?
      > > >
      > > > Juan
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
      > > > Bruger du Yahoo!?
      > > > Er du træt af spam? Yahoo!Mail har den bedste spambeskyttelse,
      > der
      > > findes
      > > > http://dk.mail. yahoo.com
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
      > > > Bruger du Yahoo!?
      > > > Er du træt af spam? Yahoo!Mail har den bedste spambeskyttelse,
      > der
      > > findes
      > > > http://dk.mail. yahoo.com
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
      > > Bruger du Yahoo!?
      > > Er du træt af spam? Yahoo!Mail har den bedste spambeskyttelse, der
      > findes
      > > http://dk.mail. yahoo.com
      > >
      >


      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
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      Er du træt af spam? Yahoo!Mail har den bedste spambeskyttelse, der findes
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      __________________________________________________
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