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42253RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

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  • Kim Graae Munch
    Sep 22, 2009
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      Dottie, Abel was killed, and I translate it to that he was not incarnated on the Earth, for several reason's. Firstly I see this as a symbolic story, so the deaths means he don't incarnate in the physical world. If it was the real world he would just reincarnate, so it should be no problem if Cain killed him, but there evidently was. Second, was death existing at that time at all, so it must mean something else? Cain was send down to Earth, and we know him as Gilgamesh, as the first and only man on the Earth, the only one incarnating from before Atlantis, preparing the development of the physical body of man. Then Seth is born, and that happens when Enkido inkarnates and becomes man/Gilgamesh's right hand.
      We have Lucifer and Ahriman as the driving powers behind the development on the Earth, and Christ waiting to incarnate at the right time, and the only one that can be is Abel. If it's not Abel, it's hard to find a reasonable explanation for the Abel and Seth pair, at least as good as this.
      Kim


      -----Original Message-----
      From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
      Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 5:47 PM
      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

       

      Kim! why do you have Able as being not? I think this is what is ultimately what is holding your attention to the lines being the opposite of how they are understood. I keep wanting to think its just you are seeing it from a different place looking in but we are looking at and from the same place so that is not the issue...its your consideration of Abel, Cain, and Seth...where do you find that Abel was not incarnated? Can we look at that again....Okay, let's go to the Bible...do you have a Bible? King James Version?  or what? If not can you get one or borrow one?

      "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

      --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

      From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
      Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lucifer
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 7:34 AM



      Yes, I have read it long time ago, and I had the same view as her. But I was a little dissatisfied with the disappearing Abel, and Seth, who just to the brothers place. We have a trinity everywhere, also here, but two of them should be the same? We have three, Cain are sendt to the Earth, Seth is sendt to the Earth, but Abel is not, remember spiritual beings don't die, he stays in heaven. Who is coming to the Earth as the equilibrium between Ahriman and Lucifer? Jesus! So Abel is the Son stream, Where Cain is the Mother stream, the Future, where Seth is the Father Stream, History. Cain cannot be the Father stream, as he is created by two Mothers.
      Kim
       
       
      -----Original Message-----
      From: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anthroposop hy_tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
      Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 3:45 PM
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

       
      What is it with you and the feminine in your thinking! how do you have Cain as feminine?! oh boy...okay ima look around here....alright we have an article by Adri:
       
       

      "What does the ‘fall of man’ really mean?

      Human beings fall, as it were, to the earth. That is, when Lucifer entered into man’s Astral body, the human being was then suddenly able to see the world around him, independent of himself, he became an ego bearing being and for the first time was capable of acquiring knowledge of the world. This is what is meant by eating the apple from the ‘Tree of knowledge’ or the Astral body and the physical senses.

      This intervention was necessary. Without it humanity could not have developed freedom, it would always have been subject to higher beings and its advancement would not be won through the dint of personal effort. Death also became possible for the first time and alternating times between sleep and wakefulness.

      Humanity however, fell a little further than intended. That is, Lucifer’s influence was stronger than had been expected. Now, Higher spiritual beings were concerned lest this influence enter too far into the human sheaths. The Etheric or Life body was protected from Luciferic influence by higher beings in order that this might be prevented. In order to do this it was necessary for the human being’s Etheric body to be lifted out of his physical body. This meant that from that time on humanity began to lose its connection or cognition of Etheric forces or  ‘The tree of life’. This was taken away by lifting out of the Etheric body.

      We are told then that after this momentous event a sun Elohim that had sacrificed its female nature united with Eve and produced Cain, a representative of the Male stream.

      Then Eve is said to have united with Adam and produced Abel whose Etheric body being the opposite of his physical body was feminine and became the representative of the Female stream.

      Jehova not too pleased with a creation he had nothing to do with did not accept Cain’s sacrifice only Abel’s. Cain then kills Abel and is banished after which Adam and Eve have another child whom they call Seth.

      In this killing of Abel by Cain we can see the beginnings of egoism. When Cain is asked concerning his brother he asks, ‘Am I my brother’s keeper?’

       

      So we have two Streams – Cain and Abel."

       
       


      "If there is something more powerful than destiny, this must be the human being who bears destiny unshaken." Rudolf Steiner

      --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

      From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
      Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lucifer
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 5:23 AM



      Dear Simone,
      I am not sure it was Lucifer who was father of Cain, Steiner writes this at Tarjei's place:

      There was a time when one of the Elohim created a human being whom he called Eve. That Elohim united himself with Eve and she gave birth to Cain. After this, another Elohim, named Yahveh, created Adam. Adam also united himself with Eve and from this union came Abel.

      Thus we see that Cain is a direct descendant of the gods, but Abel is a descendant of Adam and Eve who are human. Now the myth proceeds:

      The sacrifices which Abel made to Yahveh were pleasing to him, but the sacrifices brought by Cain did not please him because the birth of Cain was not ordained by him. The result was that Cain committed fratricide. He killed Abel and for this he was excluded from communion with Yahveh. He went away into distant lands and founded his own race there.

      Adam again united himself with Eve and from this union came Seth, also mentioned in the Bible, who took over the role of Abel. Thus we have two generations of mankind; the race of Cain, who was a descentant of Eve and one of the Elohim, and the other race which had human parentage and was brought into existence at the commad of Yahveh.

       I see Eva as Sophia, and she was created/Emanated from a higher godly form of the feminine, the Elohim, which is higher than Yahveh. Eva created Cain with the Elohim, so Cain was of feminine ancestry.
      Yahve created Adam, so he is masculine. Adam is the sistersoul to Jesus, he is the highest developed 'man' of the angels of the Old Moon, who chose to stay at the level of man to act as template for mankind.
       
      I hope this picture helps with the relation of Lucifer and Ahriman in relation to the tree. The Earthly Triangle is the material world, the earthly aspect of the Heavenly Triangle. You could symbolically replace Ahriman with Cain, Lucifer with Seth, and Son of Man with Abel. The Mother/Sophia/ Shekinah gives form to the physical world, and the mental soul, where lucifer gives drive, and sentient soul, and the Son gives Life and consciousness soul.
       

      Love, Kim
       
      -----Original Message-----
      From: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anthroposop hy_tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of sim1dmg
      Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 9:21 AM
      To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

       

      --- In anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com, "Kim" <kimgm@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dottie, If Ahriman is not part of the three, should Cain not be in the
      > bible. Christ, Lucifer, and Ahriman is a trinity, matching the tree.
      >
      > Ahriman is part of this world, he is this world, he is the most
      > materialistic part of this world, he is the material we are living in.
      > If you take a stone, it's Ahriman.
      >
      > Ahriman is the Moon, the forming power, Lucifer is the Sun, the creative
      > power, Christ is the Earth, Life.
      >
      > When Steiner worked in Theosophical context he used Jehova, instead of
      > Ahriman, as it was custom there. Later Steiner used Ahriman to talk
      > about the physical manifestation and Jahve to talk about the spiritual
      > being.
      >
      > Kim
      >
       
      Dear Kim,
      But according to the temple legend, isn't Cain supposed to be son of Lucifer? Also, if Ahriman is one aspect of Jehova and Jehova is on the right side of the tree, how would Ahriman be on the other side? For if Jehova= Jahve+Ahriman, and Jehova is on the right side, supposedly Ahriman  would be there too. And how Lucifer, who's on the left side of the Jewish Kaballah tree moved to the same side of Jehova?
      Love, Simone (almost falling sleep but puzzled…:)
       






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