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40962Re: 33rd parallel

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  • Frank Thomas Smith
    Apr 2 9:03 AM
      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12" <ottmar12@...> wrote:
      Hallo Ottmar,

      O: > Hi Frank,
      > ok, sure Robert Powell is an anthroposophist, I've known him for many years and he was here in Pforzheim 2 weeks ago, I missed his lectures and I talked with friends about him, so I mixed up the names (perhaps Alzheimer is knocking on my door ;-) )

      F: Or maybe R. Powell works for the CIA under the cloak of anthroposophy and you're one of his agents - eh? Na ja, I don't really believe that, but when one hangs around here long enough and listens to Bradford's (Holderlin's - no relation to the philosopher, it's a strip joint Bradford's said to run in Texas.)conspiracy theories, everything is possible. He's hung up on Der Doktor's conspiracies of 100 +/- years ago and is convinced he has a direct line to super-sensitive, secret information from the devanchan.

      O: I know that Colin Powell now regrets his lecture at the UN, but didn't he know better then? He knew that Bush and Co absolutely wanted that war, as a top military man he should have been able to judge himself and check independent sources (Blix report) not CIA material alone, he should have known that these reports are often part of policy and not facts alone, he missed the chance to become a hero in the course of world history.

      F: Sure he should have known, but remember that he was an army general and those guys believe anything a so-called "intelligence analyst" tells them. Believe me, I know because I was one. Although I was only a sergeant, for my colonel my analyses were Gospel truth. Knowing that, I invented only the (harmless) "intelligence" that he wanted to hear and which he could happily pass on to his superiors without having an ounce of evidence.

      > F: I don't see how that TV program could possibly know that...except from rumors
      > and/or disinformation. I also don't understand what the motive could be for
      > continuing such tactics, given Obama's order and the huge stink which arose
      > because of just such tactics.

      O: The information came from recently freed prisoners, the motives lie within the military commanders, judges etc who resent the new military direction of the Obama administration, like in Abu Ghreib these practises are actively tolerated (if this contradictio in adjecto is permitted). And how do you proof non bloody torture like humiliation, days without sleep, noise, ………
      > That you haven't heard of more aggressive ferocity of the torturers in American media is no surprise for me at all.

      F: Sorry, Ottmar, but those are "unreliable witnesses" - in quotes because I've just written a story with that title that will appear in the next Southern Cross Review and of which I now offer a sneak preview:

      Alles gute,

      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith" <eltrigal78@> wrote:
      > >
      > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12" <ottmar12@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > F: If that's the European perspective, then the Europeans should start
      > > > brushing up on their perspectives. The difference between Obama and Bush
      > > > is as between black and white (pub intended). The word "socialist" is,
      > > > however, still anathema.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Ottmar: I'm prepared to learn, I think it's a matter of
      > > > perspective and opinion. There is abig difference between the USA and
      > > > Europe what is the importance of the political parties. Here party
      > > > programmes are quite important, there is a longer continuity in the
      > > > political attitudes and policies here in Europe, in the USA it is more
      > > > centered around the person of the president. (I don't want to start
      > > > a political seminar though.) So on a scale from 0 to 100 the difference
      > > > between the 2 main parties in Germany, the Socialdemocrats (in the
      > > > political colours the reds) and the conservative CDU of Angela Merkel
      > > > (the Blacks) I would say they are 10 to 15 points apart, decades ago the
      > > > difference was bigger, now only the far left, the new party that emerged
      > > > from the Socialist party of the GDR are 20 points further left to the
      > > > Social democrats. Now what's the difference between the Republican
      > > > presidents and the Democratic presidents? On internal matters like
      > > > health insurance they may be far apart, perhaps 25 or 30 points, but in
      > > > international and economic affairs they are not more than 15 points
      > > > apart. (I invented this scale here, I think you understood what I mean
      > > > and the extend of the difference is, as I said, a matter of perspective
      > > > and opinion. For a strong supporter of either side the difference seems
      > > > of course to be much bigger than to someone who isn't involved so
      > > > much. So I think we can agree here that we disagree on that matter.)
      > >
      > > F: I can more or less agree on your point system as far as the Dem. and Rep. parties are concerned. However, I think (hope) that things are changing, mainly because of Obama. So you are right there as well; in U.S. politics the personality of the president is much more important that the corresponding figures in Europe. This has much to do with the difference in systems: parliamentary vs. presidential. The parliamentary system is, imo, better...but only in stable countries. Look at Israel, a democracy where a small ultra-conservative, religious party can determine the whole countries policies.
      > >
      > > > ===
      > > >
      > > > F: Gitmo is already a great shame for America.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Ottmar: You are right but my idea was that a whole era of American
      > > > history will (perhaps unjustly) be reduced to that one word, Guantanamo,
      > > > just like one word desribes the whole era of other times and other
      > > > countries. Just to sum it up again: Guantanamo stand for 2 things, one
      > > > the torture of many prisoners and more and more gruesome details will
      > > > come out and secondly the breech of juidicial standards, that are
      > > > accepted for centuries now and broken only by extreme dictatorial
      > > > regimes and the other great shame is the conscious lying (I am convinced
      > > > it was conscious lying) to the world public in the UN plenum when Robert
      > > > Powell told fairy tales about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. (The
      > > > US citizens believed him because there was also a complete failure of
      > > > the press, but if you looked at the diplomates of the world present
      > > > there you could see that they didn't believe him and rather believed
      > > > Mr Blix and many informed Europeans rather believed Mr Blix.)
      > >
      > > F: Yes, but, Robert Powell is an anthroposophist who probably was never in the UN. *Colin* Powell was the Sec. of State who gave that disgraceful lecture at the UN. Now, you may think me naive, but I think that Colin is an honorable man and he believed what he said.
      > >
      > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > O: is still the same, or on the contrary, what we
      > > > > have heard in Germany is that torture is even more brutal and cruel
      > > > than> before
      > > > F: Where do you hear this stuff, Ottmar - Das Goetheanum? Gitmo is in
      > > > the process of downsizing and out-phasing. And torture is no longer
      > > > permitted.
      > > >
      > > > Ottmar: I agree with your second last sentence, but your last sentence
      > > > is the official side from Washington, in Cuba itself, according to a
      > > > very serious report on TV, the torturers have only cease waterboarding,
      > > > but hanging the prisoners on their arms and other extremely brutal
      > > > treatment has increased ever since this change in policy in Washington
      > > > came up. I admit however that the truth or unthruth of this will finally
      > > > be proven only in decades, when the soldiers there will write their
      > > > personal confessions.
      > >
      > > F: I don't see how that TV program could possibly know that...except from rumors and/or disinformation. I also don't understand what the motive could be for continuing such tactics, given Obama's order and the huge stink which arose because of just such tactics.
      > >
      > >
      > > >
      > > > ===
      > > >
      > > > F: You may be right, but at least an attempt is being made to to put
      > > > some handcuffs on the perps. Btw., are these fundamental questions beng
      > > > asked in Europe?
      > > >
      > > > Ottmar: Well, the fundamental questions are partly asked but by the
      > > > wrong people, only by the far left. The Ministerpraesident (governour)
      > > > of the state of Thuringia from the conservatives, the Christian
      > > > democrates supports the idea of the unconditional fundamental basic
      > > > income (the anthro idea of bedingungsloses Grundeinkommen). I personally
      > > > am not convinced of this idea, but the questions is asked, and this
      > > > particular idea is opposed of course of free marekt capitalists and the
      > > > far left of course (just like at the time of Rudolf Steiner, when the
      > > > right and left torpedoed his social impulses.) American policy on free
      > > > enterprise and social affairs was of course extreme in European eyes and
      > > > now Obama comes to ideas of the right wing of the German conservatives.
      > > > Bush jr for example rejected German ideas about regulation of the
      > > > financial industry (what a word!) in Heiligendamm, now when the baby has
      > > > fallen in the well (a German idiom, does it exist in English) the US
      > > > consider right these ideas that were proposed then.
      > > >
      > >
      > > The baby has fallen in the well? hmmm. No, not used in English, sounds cruelly Germanic. How about: When the bough breaks the cradle will fall and down will come baby, cradle and all.
      > > Frank
      > >
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