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40189Re: Steiner's Moon node returns

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  • ottmar12
    Feb 3, 2009
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      Sorry as a computer novice I wasn't aware of the problem with the box
      below. I worked on it to make it easier to read.

      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12"
      <ottmar12@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hi Robert,
      >
      > A nice study you made. Studying the biography of Rudolf Steiner or
      > anyone's biography, the moon nodes are important, no doubt about it.
      > (They show clearly in my life.) When I wrote about the meton cycle I
      > only wanted to refer to the healing of the lame man at the pond of
      > Bethesda in John 5.
      >
      > ======
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > From Wikipedia I got these numbers on the Metoncycle. In the few cases,
      > that I calculated dates on long periods of time, I always used 365,2422
      > days for a year. With the numbers below you get a difference of 2 hours
      > 5 minutes on 19 sun years and 235 synodic moons.
      >
      > Erdumlauf: duration of 1 year
      > >
      > 1Jahr 365,24219 Tage days

      > 19Jahre 6939,60162 Tage days
      >
      >
      > Mondumlauf: duration of 1 moon cycle synodic
      >
      > 1 Mondmonat 29,53059 Tage days

      > 235 Mondmonate 6939,688415 Tage days
      >
      >
      > Differenz:
      >
      >
      > 0,08679 Tage days in 19 years
      > or 1 day in 218,92275 years
      >
      >
      >
      > =====
      >
      >
      >
      > Robert writes: In Steiner's lecture "The Four Sacrifices of Christ", he
      > talks about the harmonizing of the senses, the vital organs, the
      > thinking-feeling-willing, and, yes, the Ego.
      > But I didn't see him saying anything about the Zodiac, the Planets, or
      > the Meton Cycle.I don't know where you're getting this from.
      >
      >
      >
      > Ottmar: This wasn't my study, it comes from a Dutch anthroposophic
      > occultist, his works are mainly in Dutch, I phoned him on this question.
      > It makes sense to me, it is coherent to what Rudolf Steiner says, imho.
      > The Christ, coming down from outside time and space, from outside the
      > world, from trinity, coming down through all spheres of the hierarchies,
      > touching and healing every hierarchy, space and time, first came through
      > the zodiac, then the planetary sphere, the system sun-earth-moon, down
      > on earth into a human body. That's isn't new of course (I
      > don't want to give you a course for anthropop first graders J), but
      > then combine this descent with the early sacrifices of Christ, you can
      > say it makes sense. No problem for me though, if you disagree.
      >
      >
      >
      > Kind regards Ottmar
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason
      > <robertsmason_99@> wrote:
      > >
      > > To Ottmar, who wrote:
      > >
      > > >>. . . . It seems that the 38 years do not
      > > relate to two moon nodes, but to the meton
      > > cycle. In John 5 the lame (or what is the
      > > correct word?) man was healed by the Christ
      > > after 38 years, in him our 5 th post atlantean
      > > period is healed , the `deficency, sickness' of
      > > our period.<<
      > >
      > > Robert writes:
      > >
      > > (I "ventilated" my prose, for easier
      > > reading, I hope.)
      > >
      > > I Googled around some, and found the
      > > "Meton cycle", and it is closer to half 38
      > > years, literally.
      > >
      > > But two Moon node cycles are still 38 years
      > > "qualitatively", and they do seem more relevant
      > > here.
      > >
      > > In the case of this healing, Sucher (in
      > > *Cosmic Christianity*) explains the relation to
      > > the Moon nodes.
      > >
      > > The 38 years, qualitatively, point back to the
      > > Nathan Jesus' "spiritual nativity".
      > >
      > > Sucher calculates the "spiritual nativity" as
      > > being at the time that the "moon node" (he
      > > doesn't say which one) was at the position of
      > > the (physical) natal Moon.
      > >
      > > This particular "spiritual nativity" Sucher
      > > places in the year 6 BC, but he doesn't give
      > > the exact day.
      > >
      > > He puts this healing in the year 31 AD, two
      > > Moon node cycles after the "spiritual nativity"
      > > -- about 37.2 years, or 38 years
      > > "qualitatively".
      > >
      > > So the Moon node, not the Meton cycle (as far
      > > as I see), is crucial here.
      > >
      > > In the case of the "War in Heaven" 1841-
      > > 1879, we have to deal with approximate dates.
      > >
      > > Steiner put the end of this War in the "Autumn"
      > > and "November" of 1879.
      > >
      > > The beginning he put in the "1840s", the "early
      > > 1840s", and "1841".
      > >
      > > So, *approximately* half this time is
      > > *approximately* 19 years, which a first glance
      > > might seem to refer to either the Moon node
      > > cycle or the Meton cycle, or both.
      > >
      > > But in this case, it seems that we need to
      > > look for a "meaningful" half-way point that
      > > "mirrors" the beginning and the end of this
      > > War, in the sense, as Steiner explains, the
      > > end-point of the "spiritual war" (1879) is the
      > > "mirror" of its beginning (1841), a "mirror"
      > > that reflects to the time he was speaking:
      > >
      > > RS: "And now consider 1841 â€" 1879 â€" 1917! 1841
      > > was the crucial year in the nineteenth century.
      > > 1917 is its mirror-image. If one realizes that
      > > the exertions of the crowd of ahrimanic spirits
      > > in 1841, when the dragon started to fight
      > > Michael in the spiritual world, are mirrored
      > > right now [14th October] in 1917, much of what
      > > is happening now will not really come as a
      > > surprise."
      > >
      > > Robert continues:
      > >
      > > If we go back a Meton cycle from the
      > > Autumn or Novemeber of 1819, we come to
      > > November of 1860 -- not an especially
      > > meaningful time, as far as I see.
      > >
      > > But if we go back a Moon node cycle (18.61
      > > years), we come to 1861.27 AD, which is nearly
      > > Rudolf Steiner's birthday (1861.16 AD).
      > >
      > > (45 days/365.25 days = 0.12, approx.
      > > (1.00 - .12 = .88
      > > (1979.88 - 18.61 = 1861.27)
      > >
      > > So here we come to the year 1861, which
      > > has the same digits as 18.61. The World-Mind
      > > seems to be saying to us: "Pay attention to
      > > the Moon nodes in relation to Rudolf Steiner."
      > >
      > > And, as I have tried to show, Steiner's
      > > first Moon node return coincided with his
      > > Initiation and with the victory of Michael over
      > > the Dragon, the time of the "fall of the
      > > spirits of darkness".
      > >
      > > These are meaningful connections.
      > >
      > > Steiner's birth would be a meaningful "mirror"
      > > reflecting the beginning to the end of the "War
      > > in Heaven".
      > >
      > > A Moon node cycle before Steiner's birth does
      > > not fall quite in the year 1841 (1861.16 -
      > > 18.61 = 1842.55), but we might suppose that in
      > > speaking of the 38 year span of 1841-1879
      > > Steiner was speaking in terms of a "qualitative
      > > quantity", and approximately.
      > >
      > > And elsewhere RS does seem to point to 1842 as
      > > being the year of the start of the War in
      > > Heaven:
      > >
      > > ". . . . the year 1842, the year we have given
      > > for the materialistic crisis."
      > > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19170320p01.html>
      > >
      > > "Men were not able to see this Guardian when
      > > they went past him between the years 1842 and
      > > 1879."
      > > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19240112p01.html>
      > >
      > > "Thus we have the odd circumstance that
      > > physicists today say: we have turned physics
      > > into entirely new channels, we think entirely
      > > otherwise about physical things than they did
      > > before the year 1842."
      > > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19200309p01.html>
      > >
      > > "The mode of forming ideas which de Saint-
      > > Martin employed is no longer suited to the
      > > way in which men must think today, nor to
      > > the way in which they must, and rightly so,
      > > formulate their thoughts. Just as in travelling,
      > > when we pass from the domain of one language
      > > into that of another, in that moment we can no
      > > longer speak the language of the first, so
      > > would it be foolish today to use the form of
      > > thought of de Saint-Martin; more especially
      > > would it be foolish, because that mighty
      > > dividing line in Spiritual evolution which
      > > falls in the year 1842 (in the first third
      > > of the nineteenth century) lies between us."
      > > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19170320p01.html>
      > >
      > > So, altogether, it does seem to me that
      > > the Moon node cycle is very meaningful and works
      > > well in this context.
      > >
      > > Steiner apparently was speaking approximately,
      > > "qualitatively" of this "38 year" period of
      > > the War in Heaven.
      > >
      > > And Steiner's birth date fits very neatly at
      > > the "mirror" point almost exactly one Moon
      > > node cycle after the start and before the end
      > > of this period.
      > >
      > > The Meton cycle of 19 years is
      > > mathematically more nearly half of the 38-year
      > > span, but otherwise I don't see a meaningful
      > > connection in this context.
      > >
      > > But I do see a meaningful connection with the
      > > Moon node cycle.
      > >
      > > Ottmar wrote:
      > >
      > > >>The meton cycle is 19 years or 6939 days,
      > > that is the time Sun Moon and Earth need to
      > > come into the same position to each other.<<
      > >
      > > Robert writes:
      > >
      > > 6939 days isn't quite 19 years (365.25
      > > [Julian year] x 19 = 6939.75 days; 6939 / 19 =
      > > 365.2105), so 6939 days is almost a day less
      > > than 19 years.
      > >
      > > And so, we're still dealing with
      > > approximations.
      > >
      > > Ottmar wrote:
      > >
      > > >>In Lemuria the first deed of Christ hamonized
      > > the 12 fold zodiac
      > > >>In early Atlantis the second deed of Christ
      > > harmonized the spheres of the 7 planets, the
      > > astral of man.
      > > >>In late Atlantis the third deed or sacrifice
      > > of the Christ hamonized the mental of men,
      > > then the meton cycle for men was activated.
      > > >>In historic times, 2000 years ago the Christ
      > > saved the I or ICH of man.<<
      > >
      > > Robert writes:
      > >
      > > In Steiner's lecture "The Four Sacrifices
      > > of Christ", he talks about the harmonizing of
      > > the senses, the vital organs, the thinking-
      > > feeling-willing, and, yes, the Ego.
      > >
      > > But I didn't see him saying anything about the
      > > Zodiac, the Planets, or the Meton Cycle.
      > >
      > > I don't know where you're getting this from.
      > >
      > > And I don't know what you mean by *the meton
      > > cycle for men was activated*.
      > >
      > > Still less do I see any connection to the 38
      > > years in question.
      > >
      > > Ottmar wrote:
      > >
      > > >>The meton cycle is important for man's
      > > destiny today, but it is easily mixed up with
      > > the moon node.<<
      > >
      > > Robert writes:
      > >
      > > I can see how they could be mixed up;
      > > they are approximately the same in length.
      > >
      > > But I don't see the general importance, and I
      > > still don't the particular importance in this
      > > case.
      > >
      > > Ottmar wrote:
      > >
      > > >>(For those who read Tomberg: he wrote on the
      > > 4 sacrifices of Christ, giving additional
      > > material. For decades these Tomberg texts
      > > werethought to be ES lessons from Rudolf
      > > Steiner, held in Stockholm. The ideas mentioned
      > > above do not come from Tomberg, though!<<
      > >
      > > Robert writes:
      > >
      > > Steiner lectured on this subject 1st June,
      > > 1914; Basel; GA 152:
      > > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/ForSac_index.html>
      > >
      > > Ottmar wrote:
      > >
      > > >>I absolutely do not want to start a new
      > > discussion about Tomberg!)<<
      > >
      > > Robert heaves a sigh of relief:
      > >
      > > That's a mercy indeed.
      > >
      > > Neither do I.
      > >
      > > RM
      > >
      >
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