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39685Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Goethe

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  • dottie zold
    Jan 6, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Come on boys, lets swim in the Akasha for a change, let's just throw away those books!
       
      :)
       
      Good Holy Nights be unto you!
       
      d

      --- On Tue, 1/6/09, ottmar12 <ottmar12@...> wrote:
      From: ottmar12 <ottmar12@...>
      Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Goethe
      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:37 AM

      Hi Kim,
      thank you so much for the quick correction of my mistake, concerning
      the individuality, that went through the Mexican incarnation. It was
      my laziness, that caused this mistake, I only 'thumbed' through the
      lecture in GA 236. You are right, Rudolf Steiner here compared 2
      individuals going through the sphere of Jupiter, Eliphas Levi and
      Goethe, both with different backgrounds, thus with different results.
      I'll try to come back to the questions you mentioned some time later.
      Regards Ottmar
      
      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim"
      <kimgm@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Ottmar,
      > 
      > Of Skopas, Lysippos and Praxiteles I would choose Praxiteles as the one.
      > The Art of Praxiteles II
      >
      <http://books.google.com/books?id=T8iSrsQ6EogC&printsec=frontcover&hl=da\
      > &source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0>  .
      > 
      > I found these two documents:
      > GREEK SCULPTURE AND THE FOUR ELEMENTS
      > <http://www.library.umass.edu/benson/jbgsalt.html>      A
      > Psycho-Historical Investigation, J. L. Benson, Amherst, Massachusetts: 
      > University of Massachusetts Amherst Libraries,2000
      > And
      > 
      > GREEK COLOR THEORY AND THE FOUR ELEMENTS  
      > <http://www.library.umass.edu/benson/jbgcalt.html>     A
      Cosmological
      > Interpretation,J. L. Benson, Amherst, Massachusetts:  University of
      > Massachusetts, Amherst Libraries, 2000
      > The first referencing Greek Sculptors, and both referencing Steiner and
      > Goethe.
      > 
      > You mention the Mexican incarnation, but that was another person which
      > was compared to Goethe's incarnation.
      > 
      > Goethe has, I think, two incarnations as woman before his incarnation as
      > Goethe, if I read Steiner right.
      > 
      > Steiner mentions that before the incarnation with the initiation, the
      > person goes through incarnations as Sculptor, Composer, Painter, and
      > Writer. Is that the right sequence and where has he written about it? It
      > could be a lead for the intervening  incarnations.
      > 
      > Regards,
      > Kim
      > 
      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ottmar12"
      <ottmar12@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Kim,
      > > good that you addressed me by my name. I don't have the time to
      read
      > > all letters on this list, but I couldn't miss yours of course.
      > > I don't have the electronic version of the GA and the online
      search
      > > machine is still not working. I could look up in a big  e
      > > encyclopedia, the print version is 6500 pages and the booklet of
      > > Wimbauer, I mentioned. There I found references to the GA and the
      page
      > > number, but they refer to pre 1985 German editions. This is what I
      > found:
      > > GA 144, page 74 G lived in Greece,a philosopher and a sculptor.
      (There
      > > are 3 great famous sculptors, Phidias, Praxiteles and Skopas. I
      don't
      > > know whether G was one of them, I have never studied this matter.)
      > > Steiner 144,72 There was most problably only 1 incarnation between
      the
      > > Greek and Goethe incarnation which I (RS) wasn't able to find.
      > > GA 239, Lecture 9 June 1924 at the very end, there RS speaks of
      > > several! incarnations between Old Greece and Goethe and also of a
      > > Mexican incarnation.
      > > Also GA 144 6 Feb 1913 and GA 236, 1 June 1924
      > > Of course Rudolf Steiner often spoke about Goethes Karma GA 172/41
      and
      > > following  GA 310,26 following
      > > I remember spending much time with Goethe's books as a very young
      man,
      > > especially his ' autobiography' Dichtung und Wahrheit, then
      Steiner's
      > > comments, but we mustn't forget, that Goehte was quite
      konservative,
      > > more an abelitic soul. See the contrast to Beethoven, when Goethe and
      > > Beethoven met the Kaiser when walking in the park. Typical! We can
      > > learn a lot by studying great individuals, from what they said and
      did
      > > and from their biographies. And it is enjoyable reading. G lived in
      > > apocalyptic times, French Revolution, he wanted to feel the breath of
      > > death when he attended the battle of Valmy, the encounter of Napoleon
      > > and Goethe etc. And we live in apocalyptic times, too.
      > > Tell me, tell us when you find out something about Goethe which is
      > > new, touching, important.
      > > Ottmar
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" kimgm@
      wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi Ottmar,
      > > >
      > > > In GA 138 as seen in 'Platon
      <http://wiki.anthroposophie.net/Platon>
      > '
      > > > I have found the following (In german):
      > > > Nun habe ich ja schon vor einiger Zeit hier davon gesprochen,
      > daß,
      > > > als Plato noch lebte, nicht gerade in Platos Philosophenschule,
      aber
      > > > unter Platos Einfluß — ich habe es sogar schon vor
      > Jahrzehnten
      > > > erwähnt —, herangewachsen ist ein Künstler, nicht aus
      > > > platonischer Philosophie, aber aus platonischem Geiste heraus,
      der
      > dann,
      > > > nachdem er durch andere Inkarnationen gegangen ist, als Goethe
      > > > wiedergeboren worden ist, und der karmisch dasjenige, was aus
      den
      > > > früheren Inkarnationen, namentlich aber aus der Plato-Strömung
      > > > kam, in der Jupiter-Region umgewandelt hat, so daß es diejenige
      > Art
      > > > von Weisheit werden konnte, die eben bei Goethe alles
      durchdringt.
      > > > Which says that Goethe has incarnations between the two
      mentioned
      > > > incarnations.
      > > >
      > > > It don't say anything about his occupation, but you say that
      he was
      > a
      > > > Sculptor?
      > > >
      > > > Steiner mentions that the occupations in the incarnations before
      the
      > > > incarnation where the individual is initiated follows some
      rules,
      > ..,
      > > > sculptor,...., painter, and author. Do any of you know where
      Steiner
      > > > wrote about that?
      > > >
      > > > It is probable that Goethe incarnated about the same times and
      > > > localities as Plato.
      > > >
      > > > Happy New Year,
      > > > Kim
      > > >
      > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com,
      "ottmar12"
      > <ottmar12@>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > On Goethe's incarnations
      > > > >
      > > > > Steiner talked on different occasions about Goethe's
      previous
      > > > > incarnations. A lot was written about Goethe, see for
      example
      > Herbert
      > > > > Wimbauer wrote in his small book `Goethe und die soziale
      Mission
      > > > > Mitteleuropas'  http://www.geisteskind.de/Wimbauer.htm
      > > > > Goethe was initiated in the old Egypt Mysteries, see Goethe
      s Hym
      > to
      > > > > Isis   RS, GA 144, 6 Feb. 1919
      > > > > Then Goethe was a great sculptor in old Greece, in a
      platonic
      > > > > atmosphere.  GA 239, 9. June 1924
      > > > > RS said that he couldn't find any incarnations between
      old Greece
      > ang
      > > > > 18 th / 19 th century incarnation.
      > > > > These answers are too short of course, to me it feels I
      gave a
      > > > > skeleton with the lines above. Goethe was such a rich
      > individuality.
      > > > > What about his freemason inclination, why his hate against
      > Cagliostro,
      > > > > his rather conservative attitude in social and state
      questions in
      > > > > contrast to Schiller, Steiner also spoke of female
      incarnations,
      > and
      > > > > there is an oral tradition of a Steiner remark, that Goethe
      was
      > one of
      > > > > the most prominent figures in the Old Testament.
      > > > >
      > > > > So, what does the teacher in me say? No, guys n gals, no
      easy
      > google
      > > > > answers, but thorough study and dedication.
      > > > > Ottmar
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold
      > > > > dottie_z@ wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Hi Dan, thank you so much for the links. I have found
      something
      > that
      > > > > helps me in a debate as well regarding thy whys and
      whatfores of
      > > > > 'rules' of spiritual science.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I think it interesting to consider Goethe also as one
      of the
      > > > > disciples. This is the feel I get when looking at the
      pictures.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > All good things,
      > > > > > Dottie
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Google books few pages preview:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5kskf3
      > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5ehqsy
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
      
      
      
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