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RE: [anthroposophy] Speculation on Creation

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  • Maurice McCarthy
    Bradford! I could kiss you! Short list of the refinements I have with your help. 1. The formula is a description of the idea of knowing-WHY and not
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 4, 2003
      Bradford! I could kiss you!


      Short list of the refinements I have with your help.

      1. The formula is a description of the idea of knowing-WHY and not
      knowing-that (something is the case) because knowing-that is a moment
      contained within knowing-why.

      2. If we concede the physicalist limitation that the act of knowledge is
      human then we have

      c+ a => k iff c = f(a-h)

      which reads "reliable knowledge can only be obtained about the outside world
      if it already has a peculiarly human essence or quality about it". Unless
      matter is human in some sense then predictive knowledge fails, but
      prediction does obtain, therefore matter is a deformed humanity. All matter.

      3. By the same token it is impossible to know what the temporal evolution of
      angels was through successive incarnations of the universe exactly because
      their is no humanity in it. The alternative account is therefore a
      description of the PRECONDITIONS necessary to obtain our human world, i.e. a
      description of the hierarchies of the angels, angelology. After years of
      worrying it, at last there is a way for me to describe Aristotle's
      distinction between priority in being and priority in time. Think of it like
      this: time is an arrow running from left to right across the page.
      Angelology is a vertical arrow running downwards to the origin of human
      time. Consequently, you're right in comment to <5> I must insist on the
      first 'creation' - code word for precondition - as super intelligences.

      4. With respect to the quote from Aristotle and your question from comment
      on <2> "What Permanent substance are we talking about," Aristotle's answer
      was the active mind or energeia nous. That's fine when humanity is
      approaching intelligence, the whole world is learning to think
      materialistically but its not good enough now. In fact I don't know what to
      call it and it is, properly speaking utterly indefinable. Quite utterly. It
      is just awesome. Spirituality now is of the nature of the will, rather than
      intelligence, so something like thela might do (Greek for 'will') but it
      carries no meaning to me.


      Now to complete a reply to your comments:


      <6>
      Now in the third cosmos we are entitled to speak of the first beginnings of
      humanity,

      Bradford Comments;

      So from what I understand or misunderstood, and it likely that I
      misunderstood, you are trying to deal with First Creation, Second
      Creation and Third Creation. John Scotus Eriginea, who is probably
      incarnated now out in the North Sea,

      M:
      This is a compliment ;-) Thank you, it is received warmly, just as it was
      intended, but I can give it no credence. I don't see any point in living the
      same life twice. It would benefit neither me nor the world.

      B:
      Oh yes.. I would love to see Science gather in its tremendous
      scattered research and put Pythagorean patterns through so that
      nature is transparent. It is so obvious to anyone who begins to
      unravel the numerical relation to the world of the stars, gestation,
      biology, bone.. and how the human being is made, that we are not
      dealing with anything arbitrary. Which is the sticking point with
      Science, constantly trying to prove that it is not chance or accident
      or it is chance or accident. None of the details of the universe or
      nature can be attributed to Chance.

      M:
      Two comments: a) Saniga's algebraic projective geometry will overturn
      Science, in my humble opinion it could do it on its own. But it will take a
      generation or two to sink in. b) Chance is easy. Suppose their were a
      multitude of free spirits everywhere all with different ideas on how to do
      things but you just could not see them. Outwardly this would look like pure
      chance. The process of looking for deeper connections out of the
      materialistic orbit of thoughts can then begin.

      I've never actually heard of MindWalk. I'll see if I can find it.

      Unger is a minor hero to me. Does more than one of his works have an English
      translation?

      Delighted
      Maurice

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    • holderlin66
      ... wrote: Fritjof Capra is the author of the Tao of Physics and helped create the film MindWalk . MindWalk by Capra is so stunning
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 4, 2003
        --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Maurice McCarthy
        <Maurice.McCarthy@b...> wrote:

        Fritjof Capra is the author of the Tao of Physics and helped create
        the film "MindWalk". "MindWalk" by Capra is so stunning that it leads
        right to the Etheric world. It asks the real questions of science.

        Maurice redefined and warmly to my mind:

        2. If we concede the physicalist limitation that the act of knowledge
        is
        human then we have

        c+ a => k iff c = f(a-h)

        which reads "reliable knowledge can only be obtained about the
        outside world
        if it already has a peculiarly human essence or quality about it".
        Unless
        matter is human in some sense then predictive knowledge fails, but
        prediction does obtain, therefore matter is a deformed humanity. All
        matter.

        3. By the same token it is impossible to know what the temporal
        evolution of
        angels was through successive incarnations of the universe exactly
        because
        their is no humanity in it. The alternative account is therefore a
        description of the PRECONDITIONS necessary to obtain our human world,
        i.e. a
        description of the hierarchies of the angels, angelology. After years
        of
        worrying it, at last there is a way for me to describe Aristotle's
        distinction between priority in being and priority in time. Think of
        it like
        this: time is an arrow running from left to right across the page.
        Angelology is a vertical arrow running downwards to the origin of
        human
        time. Consequently, you're right in comment to <5> I must insist on
        the
        first 'creation' - code word for precondition - as super
        intelligences.

        4. With respect to the quote from Aristotle and your question from
        comment
        on <2> "What Permanent substance are we talking about," Aristotle's
        answer
        was the active mind or energeia nous. That's fine when humanity is
        approaching intelligence, the whole world is learning to think
        materialistically but its not good enough now. In fact I don't know
        what to
        call it and it is, properly speaking utterly indefinable. Quite
        utterly. It
        is just awesome. Spirituality now is of the nature of the will,
        rather than
        intelligence, so something like thela might do (Greek for 'will') but
        it
        carries no meaning to me.

        Bradford Comments on the Comments;

        Now your new definition in the first part of this and of course the
        real structure of stream of heredity is horizontal but met with the
        stream of Angelic insertion of I AM seed, on a Vertical line. All
        that is possible to think out of human consciousness, allows us to
        approach to same vertical family of beings that Rise from human to
        Angel to Kyriotetes to Seraphim and Thrones.. these all have had
        defined human phases of consciousness. Trickle down effect works
        here. But that also gives rise to higher ancient gods lurking and
        manifesting here on the physical plane. Christ and the Temptation in
        the Garden was a real meeting of the Old Gods and rolling the dice on
        the spoils of humanity.

        These levels of consciousness, one that wore a human frame and was an
        Elohim, Spirit of Form and direct line of spiritual management, CEO
        in charge of Creation directly from the Father Gods.. Seraphim,
        Cherubim and Thrones... means that the germinal higher phases of
        consciousness and thinking must arise in each human intelligence. In
        Freedom. Each person must arise to the Consciousness soul and begin
        to make Angelhood out from the Spirit Self level of development. It
        is important indeed to keep St. Francis in mind as well as Buddha and
        Zarathustra. But Steiner himself was already operating and outlining
        in clear cut logic aspects of higher consciousness. How the Angel
        loses the Physical body and Archangel loses the Etheric...Archangelic
        Etheric fields get spread out into geography, foods, spices, tastes,
        cultures, plants..and language structures... The lower physical,
        etheric, astral, ego forces rise and are our platform to higher
        consciousness. It is human all the way, but not merely dumb down
        George Bush human, but Steiner enhanced and Christian Rosenkreuz
        enlivened consciousness which directly lead the human onto legitamte
        Angelic development within human frameworks.

        Well we need not worry about Unger, I knew him, but there are others
        and my inner radar and lights did go off with your statements:

        ". By the same token it is impossible to know what the temporal
        evolution of
        angels was through successive incarnations of the universe exactly
        because
        their is no humanity in it. The alternative account is therefore a
        description of the PRECONDITIONS necessary to obtain our human world,
        i.e. a
        description of the hierarchies of the angels, angelology. After years
        of
        worrying it, at last there is a way for me to describe Aristotle's
        distinction between priority in being and priority in time."

        That was very clear. You see Steiner did what we can only picture in
        Gandalf. Steiner walked backwards like a Crab, the Anthro Cancer
        sign, until human was not.. was there anything prior to human was
        not. Steiner is vivid in a calm way, about standing before an abyss,
        beyond which there is no human...Beings exist...and creation is
        unfolding but way out beyond Man as a StoneCrystal Skeletal Saturn
        Being... there stood the consciousness of Steiner on a lonely face of
        a vast abyss.. there humanity stops and above and beyond, all that
        humanity is, as unfolding Bio-Carbon/Immortal, laughing, singing
        memory laden human... is vastly, and alonely NOT. Science Minds have
        no conception of how we humans rise to the levels of Gods step by
        step nor how we arrived at this point where we are Humans that have
        served, adored and Killed a God which is now the Logos Father Force
        of Love for unfolding upwards.

        You have no idea Maurice, what I conveyed about John Nash and the
        emancipated Ahrimanic double that Steiner indicated would arise? You
        know I hate to bring all that to the for again. After all this is
        just a friendly discussion about the basic Occult Science an Outline
        and building a bridge to the popular Stephen Hawkings. Rather it is a
        case of Equation Trade offs that have to do with Ethers falling away
        from the Divine, Like Intelligence, into human brains and laps.
        Ethers and Intelligence can truly be said to be doing a lap dance on
        the brain and crotches of educators.

        Fallen, decayed ethers of Light and the gathering up of what Jan
        constantly writes out of her humanism, a warmth and light we must
        learn to appreciate, study and build up to.. 1933 and Einstein
        Fission ideas.. were all dawning trade offs of Light, but why can't
        the enormous scope of thought and Science that Aristotle, who evolved
        to Thomas Aquinas, who evolved to Steiner and along the way stopped
        by and tried to mend the bridge between Haroun Al Raschid and
        Aristotle find room for thought? Because basically the specialization
        inbreeding of education allows people to fail to investigate and see
        the links to things. "MindWalk" John Scotus and how we are following
        threads from our past lives, sometimes with capacities already inborn
        that reveal where our inner interest and soul force is.

        Understanding the Mephisto relation or even developing an interest
        did not arise and does not arise in the locked doors of insight and
        certainly John Nash is not a tale of "A Beautiful Mind". As to failed
        or true speculation about John Scotus... you would do well to review
        his in depth unfolding of triadic creation...but it matters not what
        you think about a past life... the fact is that Nominalism and
        Realism are current Political coins. Nominalism allowed science to
        impregnate itself with a full fledged sour grapes education that is a
        must, in order for anyone to commuicate and be loved and manipulated
        by scholors anywhere.

        I often read Wired Magazine, I used to, because the ideas would get
        me really fired up. They were so blatantly off track that by the very
        dynamic of Spiritual Science the inner connections would arise of
        themselves with fiery insight attached. I went to the bookstore and
        sat down with STephen Hawkings mighty pictorial books of Science and
        the future and from that sizzling insights arose like meteor
        bombardments on the moon. Silent in my brain, in space nobody can
        hear you scream...but I could hear the whole dehydrated sclerotic
        Hawkins spin...and knew from experience we were supposed to teach
        this in school to our kids..Steiner loved reading opponents having a
        clear insight into reality it literally jumps off the page and
        demands the I Am to correct the error.

        Maurice, I'm a fan of yours
        Bradford
      • holderlin66
        ... http://books.reviewindex.co.uk/reviews_uk/0006544894.html Bradford comments; Now, the other smattering is to line you up to the
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 4, 2003
          --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Maurice McCarthy
          <Maurice.McCarthy@b...>

          http://books.reviewindex.co.uk/reviews_uk/0006544894.html

          Bradford comments;

          Now, the other smattering is to line you up to the historical Irish
          Monks who were in Hybernia and why, probably you are out there where
          you are. After all that Hybernia mystery center and the Irish monks
          is very much something down deep, eh Maurice?

          Victor Hugo underwent as an Irish Hybernia Monk, an Initation of such
          intensity that one of his works makes it all the way to Saturn
          Initation Vision....It was the isolation and the inward Initiation
          that Steiner described in his little tour of Mystery Centers. These
          all have to do with deeper insights of the carried capacity of souls.

          With John Scotus there are much deeper works of his that go very
          deeply into understanding and unfolding the triaic structure of
          Creation and far more on track than Science..however.. bridge,
          bridge, and bridge I always say.

          http://www.medio-evo.org/eriugenae.htm

          "We can say then that in John Scotus Eriugena we find expressed the
          spiritual yearning that has its roots in the Irish monasticism of St.
          Patrick and St. Colombanus. He showed to the Christians (monastic and
          lay) of his times the path to theosis (attaining the divine) as a
          universal call to sanctity for all humankind. Therefore and thereby,
          true believers can become, by gradual progress, transformed in and
          into the image of the Son, and may arrive at a knowledge of the
          mystery of God, in that "No man hath seen God at any time; the only
          begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared
          him"."

          "Scotus Eriugena's translation became, therefore, vital for the Latin
          West's knowledge and understanding of Dionysius, and of other
          important Greek patristic writers, such as Maximus the Confessor, the
          brilliant commentator on Dionysius, and Gregory of Nyssa. The
          Irishman was also the greatest theologian and philosopher before St.
          Anselm, and in his most famous work, the Periphyseon, constructed the
          Medieval Latin West's first system of thought.

          Here, he joins the philosophical notion of natura (borrowed from
          Boethius) with the theological one of creation: the coupling of
          these two concepts, he believed, would enable the interpretation of
          all truth. In this he is strongly influenced by Dionysius, so much so
          as to constitute the first Christian neo-Platonic system.
          Paradoxically, his thought brings us back to the present, because
          some of his intuitions, impregnated as they are with idealism and
          Nominalism, were taken up by Hegel and his interpreters, whether in
          philosophy or in contemporary theology. He divided all reality into
          four parts:

          1) Nature which creates and is not created (God)

          2) Nature which creates and is created (the primordial, or first,
          cause)

          3) 1) Nature which does not create and is created (all created
          things, animate and inanimate)

          4) Nature which does not create and is not created (representing
          creation in its ultimate transformation, but also the mystery of
          evil, not created by God and capable only of destruction)

          As will be evident, John Scotus Eriugena is capable of expressing,
          with the few intellectual means available in his own time, a vigorous
          and almost `modern' philosophical construct, very full and
          articulate. "
        • Maurice McCarthy
          Bradford wrote: Fritjof Capra is the author of the Tao of Physics and helped create the film MindWalk . MindWalk by Capra is so stunning that it leads right
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 4, 2003
            Bradford wrote:

            Fritjof Capra is the author of the Tao of Physics and helped create
            the film "MindWalk". "MindWalk" by Capra is so stunning that it leads
            right to the Etheric world. It asks the real questions of science.

            M:
            Seem to remember Capra saying that his mother was a big fan of RS but he
            never took any interest. She did not put it in front of him, no
            indoctrination - an anthroposophist in spirit and likely, in fact, a member.
            When eventually he did he realised that it would be a huge effort to get to
            grips with the new way of thinking and he was not prepared to put that
            effort in. Perhaps his soul just belongs to another School.

            Had the tip-off in the SteinerStudy today: the act of knowledge is not
            forceful will, not will in the physicalist sense we are used to, but the
            *willingness* to understand. It's a beauty. Willingness alone is deathless
            and eternal, the permanent substance. N.B. This definition has altered since
            Aristotle because consciousness has changed and the reality of experience
            must always correspond to consciousness. Notice how one form of willingness
            is powerlessness. How many people today live longer than the three score
            years and ten (70 years) of the Bible to spend many long days in old
            people's homes powerless as to their fate, sometimes with no apparent
            quality of life. This suffering is a gift of Grace to enthuse their next
            incarnation, to enable them to find meaning in life after suffering the
            darkness of materialism. At least that's the only suggestion I have.
            Treasure your old people. They carry the future of the Earth.


            B: ... You have no idea Maurice, what I conveyed about John Nash and the
            emancipated Ahrimanic double that Steiner indicated would arise?

            M: Afraid not. Must have missed it in my readings. Leave it to me. I'll
            think it through.

            B: ... Maurice, I'm a fan of yours


            M: ... Whoa! Easy boys!

            We've got the DSV Pelican (a large pipe laying and diving support vessel
            well known to British mariners) here doing subsea repairs and hooking-up a
            new production well so I might be a bit tied up tonight.

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          • Maurice McCarthy
            Bradford wrote; Now, the other smattering is to line you up to the historical Irish Monks who were in Hybernia and why, probably you are out there where you
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 4, 2003
              Bradford wrote;

              Now, the other smattering is to line you up to the historical Irish
              Monks who were in Hybernia and why, probably you are out there where
              you are. After all that Hybernia mystery center and the Irish monks
              is very much something down deep, eh Maurice?

              M:
              Well I have been called the Moray Mouth (of Zod - they think I'm from
              another planet onboard here), and I'm sat more or less squarely in the mouth
              of the Moray Firth. Some of the river waters mingling in the sea here come
              down the Caledonian Canal and River Ness from the 1,000 depths of the Loch
              itself. Born in the NE of England I was steeled in the stubborn, hard
              working atmosphere of the working class area which expected to endure
              hardships. Moving to Wales I've certainly been adopted by the deep running,
              heart-felt Folk Spirit of the Valleys. This was only made possible by a
              disastrous and explosive first marriage which pulverised the shell around my
              heart and opened it to the world. All this and there is Irish blood in me
              too.

              The quotes from http://www.medio-evo.org/eriugenae.htm ring a lot of bells,
              yes, but I also studied Hegel for 15 years before meeting with RS. In fact
              even the name Hegel rang bells for me the very first time I saw it in the
              school library. I was 17.

              A chap who rejoices in the name of 'Biscuit' McVitie is pestering me for
              attention. You'd think he had important work to do or something.

              Maurice

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