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RE: [anthroposophy] Speculation on Creation

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  • Maurice McCarthy
    Bradford wrote: Maurice forgive me ahead of time... I m just gonna let out some of my own quirks, even though I suspect you are attempting to explain Saturn,
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 3, 2003
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      Bradford wrote:

      Maurice forgive me ahead of time... I'm just gonna let out some of my
      own quirks, even though I suspect you are attempting to explain
      Saturn, Sun and Moon evolution... from point of origin, seminal
      creative Fiat prior to day one.

      M: Yes, it started as that but as I wrote I realised that it was not going
      to work. And there's nothing to forgive; bring out your quirks. It not so
      unusual for me to completely reverse opinion on matters. No remembered
      thought is unchallengable.

      Bradford commented;

      ... I was slightly disappointed in what
      little commentary came out regarding the basic truths uttered by Jan.
      That Steiner realized that atom and molecule theory came out of the
      nervous system, a taxed nervous system at that, brain, and matter
      tightly woven in the astral nervous system..could be compressed and
      arise as an Atom or particle theory.

      In the particle theory we have an astral condition of the brain and
      in the wave theory we would, appear to have, the blood and mystic
      theory.

      M:
      I must confess not to have read this post. I shall look it up as soon as I
      have time.

      B:
      ... I also find it disappointing that Stephen Hawkings and others
      think about the universe, void of the Living Being..because they may
      not be particle or wave.. but Mighty Archai and Archanglic Beings
      whos attributes we detect in Light-in Coldness- in Passion and Pride,
      and in a quality of Love in all Sympathy with things.

      M:
      It has only in the last two days dawned on me that the breakdown of
      reciprocal harmony (Cherubs) yields alternating motions (Dynamis or Spirits
      of Movement whose influence our whole consciousness is now moving into) and
      then that linear alternation is the form of sound whereas planar alternation
      is the form of colour. So I reckon this means that the Spirits of Form are
      responsible for colour and sound. By extension all the physical senses,
      maybe.

      B: ... John Nash, ....
      someone can suddenly find the trigger which would release the
      misunderstanding surrounding Steiner. Rather Decayed Light and the
      Devachan and the simple fairy tale of sticking ones hands in a Rose
      Fire that George MacDonald framed, is so very out of sorts with
      Science. Certainly it can be explained. Electricty, Magnetism,
      decayed Racism or decayed Etheric Life forces off the Tree of Life,
      are cast off for a blundering humanity to made a damn big deal about,
      but it leads us, and rightly into deeper and deeper territory, but
      without deeper and deeper understanding. You get my point?

      M:
      I think so. We're heading into a morass unless the spiritual rabbit can be
      pulled out of the hat.

      <1>
      The idea of knowledge may be expressed in a quasi-mathematical
      formula:

      c + a => k, iff c = f(a)


      Bradford Comments;

      Now this Fichte like insight was wrought through the great
      philosophers and Hegel and Holderlin, back a few posts, understood
      the same thing as Fichte about the I AM. The creator should know
      itself and in knowing itself the organs for knowing its vast
      kingdoms, ...

      M:
      I should have been more explicit with you here. I, too, have long held this
      dogma but I'm challenging it in myself. There is, however, sucker-punch
      which resolves the difficulty of the Creator being Absolute Ignorance. The
      Creator can be a knower if, and only if, He descends to assume the form of a
      knower, descends into individuality. Didn't mean to deceive, sorry.

      <2>
      The act alone must exist without reference to any other

      Bradford comments;

      What permanent substance do you think you can get away with. The Atom
      of God, a little particle that does not survive, no matter, no none,
      not a scrap of matter goes past the threshold..so What Permanent
      substance are we talking about?

      M: The Act of Knowledge is Christ.

      "When the act of knowledge (nous) is set free from its present conditions it
      appears as just what it is and nothing more: this alone is immortal and
      eternal" Aristotle De Anima III.5

      I thought twice about appealing to authority here.


      <3>
      As the act of knowledge is the transparent medium of all existence and
      knowledge, so that it has no definite quality of its own but is the
      possibility of all qualia, then a simple division of the substance of
      the act would only make an ignorant perisher, as opposed to the original
      permanent. Consequently the first parturition gives birth to many.

      Bradford comments;

      Is this some sweet way of saying Big Bang? Maurice, I know you don't
      mean it this way and I could be merely a crass materialist in
      response and stay within the confines of the argument.

      M:
      A sort of spiritual bang. The scheme is Aristotelian too. To start with the
      widest genus and hone in through the specifics to arrive at the point where
      I can say that humanity can be identified as matter for another being. I am
      trying to synthesise axiological and materialist creations.

      I'll have to break off here as it is nearly 6am and I'm about to hand the
      shift over. I'll try to catch up the rest after some sleep.

      Many Thanks for the trouble you've gone to
      Maurice

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    • Maurice McCarthy
      Bradford! I could kiss you! Short list of the refinements I have with your help. 1. The formula is a description of the idea of knowing-WHY and not
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 4, 2003
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        Bradford! I could kiss you!


        Short list of the refinements I have with your help.

        1. The formula is a description of the idea of knowing-WHY and not
        knowing-that (something is the case) because knowing-that is a moment
        contained within knowing-why.

        2. If we concede the physicalist limitation that the act of knowledge is
        human then we have

        c+ a => k iff c = f(a-h)

        which reads "reliable knowledge can only be obtained about the outside world
        if it already has a peculiarly human essence or quality about it". Unless
        matter is human in some sense then predictive knowledge fails, but
        prediction does obtain, therefore matter is a deformed humanity. All matter.

        3. By the same token it is impossible to know what the temporal evolution of
        angels was through successive incarnations of the universe exactly because
        their is no humanity in it. The alternative account is therefore a
        description of the PRECONDITIONS necessary to obtain our human world, i.e. a
        description of the hierarchies of the angels, angelology. After years of
        worrying it, at last there is a way for me to describe Aristotle's
        distinction between priority in being and priority in time. Think of it like
        this: time is an arrow running from left to right across the page.
        Angelology is a vertical arrow running downwards to the origin of human
        time. Consequently, you're right in comment to <5> I must insist on the
        first 'creation' - code word for precondition - as super intelligences.

        4. With respect to the quote from Aristotle and your question from comment
        on <2> "What Permanent substance are we talking about," Aristotle's answer
        was the active mind or energeia nous. That's fine when humanity is
        approaching intelligence, the whole world is learning to think
        materialistically but its not good enough now. In fact I don't know what to
        call it and it is, properly speaking utterly indefinable. Quite utterly. It
        is just awesome. Spirituality now is of the nature of the will, rather than
        intelligence, so something like thela might do (Greek for 'will') but it
        carries no meaning to me.


        Now to complete a reply to your comments:


        <6>
        Now in the third cosmos we are entitled to speak of the first beginnings of
        humanity,

        Bradford Comments;

        So from what I understand or misunderstood, and it likely that I
        misunderstood, you are trying to deal with First Creation, Second
        Creation and Third Creation. John Scotus Eriginea, who is probably
        incarnated now out in the North Sea,

        M:
        This is a compliment ;-) Thank you, it is received warmly, just as it was
        intended, but I can give it no credence. I don't see any point in living the
        same life twice. It would benefit neither me nor the world.

        B:
        Oh yes.. I would love to see Science gather in its tremendous
        scattered research and put Pythagorean patterns through so that
        nature is transparent. It is so obvious to anyone who begins to
        unravel the numerical relation to the world of the stars, gestation,
        biology, bone.. and how the human being is made, that we are not
        dealing with anything arbitrary. Which is the sticking point with
        Science, constantly trying to prove that it is not chance or accident
        or it is chance or accident. None of the details of the universe or
        nature can be attributed to Chance.

        M:
        Two comments: a) Saniga's algebraic projective geometry will overturn
        Science, in my humble opinion it could do it on its own. But it will take a
        generation or two to sink in. b) Chance is easy. Suppose their were a
        multitude of free spirits everywhere all with different ideas on how to do
        things but you just could not see them. Outwardly this would look like pure
        chance. The process of looking for deeper connections out of the
        materialistic orbit of thoughts can then begin.

        I've never actually heard of MindWalk. I'll see if I can find it.

        Unger is a minor hero to me. Does more than one of his works have an English
        translation?

        Delighted
        Maurice

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      • holderlin66
        ... wrote: Fritjof Capra is the author of the Tao of Physics and helped create the film MindWalk . MindWalk by Capra is so stunning
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 4, 2003
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          --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Maurice McCarthy
          <Maurice.McCarthy@b...> wrote:

          Fritjof Capra is the author of the Tao of Physics and helped create
          the film "MindWalk". "MindWalk" by Capra is so stunning that it leads
          right to the Etheric world. It asks the real questions of science.

          Maurice redefined and warmly to my mind:

          2. If we concede the physicalist limitation that the act of knowledge
          is
          human then we have

          c+ a => k iff c = f(a-h)

          which reads "reliable knowledge can only be obtained about the
          outside world
          if it already has a peculiarly human essence or quality about it".
          Unless
          matter is human in some sense then predictive knowledge fails, but
          prediction does obtain, therefore matter is a deformed humanity. All
          matter.

          3. By the same token it is impossible to know what the temporal
          evolution of
          angels was through successive incarnations of the universe exactly
          because
          their is no humanity in it. The alternative account is therefore a
          description of the PRECONDITIONS necessary to obtain our human world,
          i.e. a
          description of the hierarchies of the angels, angelology. After years
          of
          worrying it, at last there is a way for me to describe Aristotle's
          distinction between priority in being and priority in time. Think of
          it like
          this: time is an arrow running from left to right across the page.
          Angelology is a vertical arrow running downwards to the origin of
          human
          time. Consequently, you're right in comment to <5> I must insist on
          the
          first 'creation' - code word for precondition - as super
          intelligences.

          4. With respect to the quote from Aristotle and your question from
          comment
          on <2> "What Permanent substance are we talking about," Aristotle's
          answer
          was the active mind or energeia nous. That's fine when humanity is
          approaching intelligence, the whole world is learning to think
          materialistically but its not good enough now. In fact I don't know
          what to
          call it and it is, properly speaking utterly indefinable. Quite
          utterly. It
          is just awesome. Spirituality now is of the nature of the will,
          rather than
          intelligence, so something like thela might do (Greek for 'will') but
          it
          carries no meaning to me.

          Bradford Comments on the Comments;

          Now your new definition in the first part of this and of course the
          real structure of stream of heredity is horizontal but met with the
          stream of Angelic insertion of I AM seed, on a Vertical line. All
          that is possible to think out of human consciousness, allows us to
          approach to same vertical family of beings that Rise from human to
          Angel to Kyriotetes to Seraphim and Thrones.. these all have had
          defined human phases of consciousness. Trickle down effect works
          here. But that also gives rise to higher ancient gods lurking and
          manifesting here on the physical plane. Christ and the Temptation in
          the Garden was a real meeting of the Old Gods and rolling the dice on
          the spoils of humanity.

          These levels of consciousness, one that wore a human frame and was an
          Elohim, Spirit of Form and direct line of spiritual management, CEO
          in charge of Creation directly from the Father Gods.. Seraphim,
          Cherubim and Thrones... means that the germinal higher phases of
          consciousness and thinking must arise in each human intelligence. In
          Freedom. Each person must arise to the Consciousness soul and begin
          to make Angelhood out from the Spirit Self level of development. It
          is important indeed to keep St. Francis in mind as well as Buddha and
          Zarathustra. But Steiner himself was already operating and outlining
          in clear cut logic aspects of higher consciousness. How the Angel
          loses the Physical body and Archangel loses the Etheric...Archangelic
          Etheric fields get spread out into geography, foods, spices, tastes,
          cultures, plants..and language structures... The lower physical,
          etheric, astral, ego forces rise and are our platform to higher
          consciousness. It is human all the way, but not merely dumb down
          George Bush human, but Steiner enhanced and Christian Rosenkreuz
          enlivened consciousness which directly lead the human onto legitamte
          Angelic development within human frameworks.

          Well we need not worry about Unger, I knew him, but there are others
          and my inner radar and lights did go off with your statements:

          ". By the same token it is impossible to know what the temporal
          evolution of
          angels was through successive incarnations of the universe exactly
          because
          their is no humanity in it. The alternative account is therefore a
          description of the PRECONDITIONS necessary to obtain our human world,
          i.e. a
          description of the hierarchies of the angels, angelology. After years
          of
          worrying it, at last there is a way for me to describe Aristotle's
          distinction between priority in being and priority in time."

          That was very clear. You see Steiner did what we can only picture in
          Gandalf. Steiner walked backwards like a Crab, the Anthro Cancer
          sign, until human was not.. was there anything prior to human was
          not. Steiner is vivid in a calm way, about standing before an abyss,
          beyond which there is no human...Beings exist...and creation is
          unfolding but way out beyond Man as a StoneCrystal Skeletal Saturn
          Being... there stood the consciousness of Steiner on a lonely face of
          a vast abyss.. there humanity stops and above and beyond, all that
          humanity is, as unfolding Bio-Carbon/Immortal, laughing, singing
          memory laden human... is vastly, and alonely NOT. Science Minds have
          no conception of how we humans rise to the levels of Gods step by
          step nor how we arrived at this point where we are Humans that have
          served, adored and Killed a God which is now the Logos Father Force
          of Love for unfolding upwards.

          You have no idea Maurice, what I conveyed about John Nash and the
          emancipated Ahrimanic double that Steiner indicated would arise? You
          know I hate to bring all that to the for again. After all this is
          just a friendly discussion about the basic Occult Science an Outline
          and building a bridge to the popular Stephen Hawkings. Rather it is a
          case of Equation Trade offs that have to do with Ethers falling away
          from the Divine, Like Intelligence, into human brains and laps.
          Ethers and Intelligence can truly be said to be doing a lap dance on
          the brain and crotches of educators.

          Fallen, decayed ethers of Light and the gathering up of what Jan
          constantly writes out of her humanism, a warmth and light we must
          learn to appreciate, study and build up to.. 1933 and Einstein
          Fission ideas.. were all dawning trade offs of Light, but why can't
          the enormous scope of thought and Science that Aristotle, who evolved
          to Thomas Aquinas, who evolved to Steiner and along the way stopped
          by and tried to mend the bridge between Haroun Al Raschid and
          Aristotle find room for thought? Because basically the specialization
          inbreeding of education allows people to fail to investigate and see
          the links to things. "MindWalk" John Scotus and how we are following
          threads from our past lives, sometimes with capacities already inborn
          that reveal where our inner interest and soul force is.

          Understanding the Mephisto relation or even developing an interest
          did not arise and does not arise in the locked doors of insight and
          certainly John Nash is not a tale of "A Beautiful Mind". As to failed
          or true speculation about John Scotus... you would do well to review
          his in depth unfolding of triadic creation...but it matters not what
          you think about a past life... the fact is that Nominalism and
          Realism are current Political coins. Nominalism allowed science to
          impregnate itself with a full fledged sour grapes education that is a
          must, in order for anyone to commuicate and be loved and manipulated
          by scholors anywhere.

          I often read Wired Magazine, I used to, because the ideas would get
          me really fired up. They were so blatantly off track that by the very
          dynamic of Spiritual Science the inner connections would arise of
          themselves with fiery insight attached. I went to the bookstore and
          sat down with STephen Hawkings mighty pictorial books of Science and
          the future and from that sizzling insights arose like meteor
          bombardments on the moon. Silent in my brain, in space nobody can
          hear you scream...but I could hear the whole dehydrated sclerotic
          Hawkins spin...and knew from experience we were supposed to teach
          this in school to our kids..Steiner loved reading opponents having a
          clear insight into reality it literally jumps off the page and
          demands the I Am to correct the error.

          Maurice, I'm a fan of yours
          Bradford
        • holderlin66
          ... http://books.reviewindex.co.uk/reviews_uk/0006544894.html Bradford comments; Now, the other smattering is to line you up to the
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 4, 2003
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            --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Maurice McCarthy
            <Maurice.McCarthy@b...>

            http://books.reviewindex.co.uk/reviews_uk/0006544894.html

            Bradford comments;

            Now, the other smattering is to line you up to the historical Irish
            Monks who were in Hybernia and why, probably you are out there where
            you are. After all that Hybernia mystery center and the Irish monks
            is very much something down deep, eh Maurice?

            Victor Hugo underwent as an Irish Hybernia Monk, an Initation of such
            intensity that one of his works makes it all the way to Saturn
            Initation Vision....It was the isolation and the inward Initiation
            that Steiner described in his little tour of Mystery Centers. These
            all have to do with deeper insights of the carried capacity of souls.

            With John Scotus there are much deeper works of his that go very
            deeply into understanding and unfolding the triaic structure of
            Creation and far more on track than Science..however.. bridge,
            bridge, and bridge I always say.

            http://www.medio-evo.org/eriugenae.htm

            "We can say then that in John Scotus Eriugena we find expressed the
            spiritual yearning that has its roots in the Irish monasticism of St.
            Patrick and St. Colombanus. He showed to the Christians (monastic and
            lay) of his times the path to theosis (attaining the divine) as a
            universal call to sanctity for all humankind. Therefore and thereby,
            true believers can become, by gradual progress, transformed in and
            into the image of the Son, and may arrive at a knowledge of the
            mystery of God, in that "No man hath seen God at any time; the only
            begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared
            him"."

            "Scotus Eriugena's translation became, therefore, vital for the Latin
            West's knowledge and understanding of Dionysius, and of other
            important Greek patristic writers, such as Maximus the Confessor, the
            brilliant commentator on Dionysius, and Gregory of Nyssa. The
            Irishman was also the greatest theologian and philosopher before St.
            Anselm, and in his most famous work, the Periphyseon, constructed the
            Medieval Latin West's first system of thought.

            Here, he joins the philosophical notion of natura (borrowed from
            Boethius) with the theological one of creation: the coupling of
            these two concepts, he believed, would enable the interpretation of
            all truth. In this he is strongly influenced by Dionysius, so much so
            as to constitute the first Christian neo-Platonic system.
            Paradoxically, his thought brings us back to the present, because
            some of his intuitions, impregnated as they are with idealism and
            Nominalism, were taken up by Hegel and his interpreters, whether in
            philosophy or in contemporary theology. He divided all reality into
            four parts:

            1) Nature which creates and is not created (God)

            2) Nature which creates and is created (the primordial, or first,
            cause)

            3) 1) Nature which does not create and is created (all created
            things, animate and inanimate)

            4) Nature which does not create and is not created (representing
            creation in its ultimate transformation, but also the mystery of
            evil, not created by God and capable only of destruction)

            As will be evident, John Scotus Eriugena is capable of expressing,
            with the few intellectual means available in his own time, a vigorous
            and almost `modern' philosophical construct, very full and
            articulate. "
          • Maurice McCarthy
            Bradford wrote: Fritjof Capra is the author of the Tao of Physics and helped create the film MindWalk . MindWalk by Capra is so stunning that it leads right
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 4, 2003
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              Bradford wrote:

              Fritjof Capra is the author of the Tao of Physics and helped create
              the film "MindWalk". "MindWalk" by Capra is so stunning that it leads
              right to the Etheric world. It asks the real questions of science.

              M:
              Seem to remember Capra saying that his mother was a big fan of RS but he
              never took any interest. She did not put it in front of him, no
              indoctrination - an anthroposophist in spirit and likely, in fact, a member.
              When eventually he did he realised that it would be a huge effort to get to
              grips with the new way of thinking and he was not prepared to put that
              effort in. Perhaps his soul just belongs to another School.

              Had the tip-off in the SteinerStudy today: the act of knowledge is not
              forceful will, not will in the physicalist sense we are used to, but the
              *willingness* to understand. It's a beauty. Willingness alone is deathless
              and eternal, the permanent substance. N.B. This definition has altered since
              Aristotle because consciousness has changed and the reality of experience
              must always correspond to consciousness. Notice how one form of willingness
              is powerlessness. How many people today live longer than the three score
              years and ten (70 years) of the Bible to spend many long days in old
              people's homes powerless as to their fate, sometimes with no apparent
              quality of life. This suffering is a gift of Grace to enthuse their next
              incarnation, to enable them to find meaning in life after suffering the
              darkness of materialism. At least that's the only suggestion I have.
              Treasure your old people. They carry the future of the Earth.


              B: ... You have no idea Maurice, what I conveyed about John Nash and the
              emancipated Ahrimanic double that Steiner indicated would arise?

              M: Afraid not. Must have missed it in my readings. Leave it to me. I'll
              think it through.

              B: ... Maurice, I'm a fan of yours


              M: ... Whoa! Easy boys!

              We've got the DSV Pelican (a large pipe laying and diving support vessel
              well known to British mariners) here doing subsea repairs and hooking-up a
              new production well so I might be a bit tied up tonight.

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            • Maurice McCarthy
              Bradford wrote; Now, the other smattering is to line you up to the historical Irish Monks who were in Hybernia and why, probably you are out there where you
              Message 6 of 6 , Nov 4, 2003
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                Bradford wrote;

                Now, the other smattering is to line you up to the historical Irish
                Monks who were in Hybernia and why, probably you are out there where
                you are. After all that Hybernia mystery center and the Irish monks
                is very much something down deep, eh Maurice?

                M:
                Well I have been called the Moray Mouth (of Zod - they think I'm from
                another planet onboard here), and I'm sat more or less squarely in the mouth
                of the Moray Firth. Some of the river waters mingling in the sea here come
                down the Caledonian Canal and River Ness from the 1,000 depths of the Loch
                itself. Born in the NE of England I was steeled in the stubborn, hard
                working atmosphere of the working class area which expected to endure
                hardships. Moving to Wales I've certainly been adopted by the deep running,
                heart-felt Folk Spirit of the Valleys. This was only made possible by a
                disastrous and explosive first marriage which pulverised the shell around my
                heart and opened it to the world. All this and there is Irish blood in me
                too.

                The quotes from http://www.medio-evo.org/eriugenae.htm ring a lot of bells,
                yes, but I also studied Hegel for 15 years before meeting with RS. In fact
                even the name Hegel rang bells for me the very first time I saw it in the
                school library. I was 17.

                A chap who rejoices in the name of 'Biscuit' McVitie is pestering me for
                attention. You'd think he had important work to do or something.

                Maurice

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