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Re: Ring and Cup, Tolkien & Wagner

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  • joksu57
    Hi Danny, dear Brother! ... *** That might have happened a couple of times, but it is (again) refreshing to read your invitation . (It seems that a poetic
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 3, 2003
      Hi Danny, dear Brother!


      --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, danifyou@t... wrote:
      >
      > Nice to see you back Joksu!
      > (Hmm, have I said that before?...)

      *** That might have happened a couple of times, but it is (again)
      refreshing to read your "invitation". (It seems that a poetic soul
      can, even from "vague messages", allways pick up something useful!)

      >
      > Well I heard a Ringing call; to be here with you talk. So here I am.
      >
      > I choose the Life-Spirit aspect of your post.
      >
      > Concerning-considering it as a Resurrection agent, a 'Stimulating'
      opening wide to the Cosmos, a Force, I concur. This aspect of Man
      methinks could well be described as Love as --> a Deeply Profound
      marking
      > Spiritual/Religious experience in the Temple of Grace. This Seed
      aspect just as you speak act as in us as a lasting echo of
      Transformative Homeopathic touch.
      >

      joksu writes:

      Yes, it is fine that you pointed out the "Love-aspect". A spiritual
      teacher said once that we can get the seed to our resurrection (or
      transfiguration) body from Jesus Christ, but that seed is then
      nurtured by the loving thoughts and feelings of our fellow men.
      Mankind forms a unity and love is the "cement" which keeps us all
      together. I think that it was St. Paul who said something like "we
      are all members in the body of Christ".

      Great responsibilities and great possibilities are bestowed upon us
      humans. In this context it is easier to understand, why Dr. Steiner
      said that if we take one step "in knowledge", we should take
      three "ethical steps". Also some kind of antidote to modern
      materialistic thinking can be found from the advice, that we must
      learn to think with our heart.

      (So, keep going on your hearty and poetic "track", Danny! Maybe some
      day I manage to write my first poem in this incarnation?)


      Take care
      Joksu

      > For the thing is that Life-Spirit is not really something we 'Use';
      rather, is, as I would for now describe it first-hand first time,
      perhaps not perfectly right; an imprint arising from Christ and
      a "Choir" out of the Warm-Sound filled worlds(correct me if and where
      I'm found wrong with this immediate last description; something more
      precise is also desirable; as in who(Hierarchical "Presidency" and
      intrinsic means of action found in Entelechial Sovereignty-Ruling
      Prniciples) does what(Process) and out of what(Worlds, Sheaths)[This
      is really a Science to be studied with the help of Rudy!],
      an 'Experience', an 'Event' occur in you, but you do not work, as in
      process-activate 'Employ' the Life-Spirit, it is bestow upon you, Ô
      Moral one of the Highest kind... ;)
      >
      > Go now in Peace dear once under the fig tree Joksu...
      >
      > But come back later though ;)
      >
      >
      > Danny
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: joksu57<jouko.sorvali@k...>
      > Hello Listmates!
      >
      > There are many interesting discussions going on the list and it
      is
      > hard to remain silent when the word "Ring" is mentioned. So maybe
      it
      > is a good moment for me to "wake up" from my "summer-hibernation"
      > (mental activity is much easier for me, when it's cold and
      > dark "outside", and there's plenty of "it" here in Finland!) and
      try
      > to make some comments abouts these interesting subjects.
      >
      > The incident in the Lord of the Rings where Frodo must destroy the
      > Ring and he is unable to drop it, has allways made a great impact
      to
      > me. Then Gollum appers on the scene and with his help the mission
      is
      > accomplished. Earlier in the book Gollums life is spared, even
      though
      > he poses a dire threat to the ringbearers. So there is
      no "rational"
      > reason why Gollum is not killed.
      >
      > I think that these passeges can give a hint towards a new attitude
      > concerning evil. When Gollums life is spared, then it is eventually
      > through karma that the Ring is destroyed. It is also very important
      > that the Ring is not used. The Ring means personal power and
      > eventually all power belongs to God. One must also learn to give
      > personal karma "to the hand of Christ".
      >
      > I cannot think Tolkien's Ring without connections to Wagner's "Ring-
      > cycle". Niebelungen's Ring has many same qualities than "Tolkiens
      > Ring". Only the ahrimanic figure Alberich can use it to his
      anvantage
      > (getting gold&power); to others it means only disaster. In the last
      > opera of the Ring-cycle (Götterdämmerung) the Ring is returned to
      the
      > waves of Rhein. Through water (feeling, love) can the curse be
      washed
      > away (Alberich placed a curse on the Ring, when it was taken from
      > him). In the same time Valhalla is burning. Valhalla is some sort
      > of "warrior's heaven" and a very respected "place" during the time
      of
      > the Old Covenant. But after the Christ Event we have got higher
      > ideals, so Wagner had very accurate insights in his operas (not in
      > his writings, though). This is also a proper time to remember what
      > Bradford has posted on this list about Mars, Buddha , St. Fransis
      and
      > the "after-death" states..
      >
      > Wagner didn't stop his "story" there, when the Ring was returned to
      > Rhein and Rheinmaidens. The next "evolutionary phase" of the
      > Rheingold can be seen in Wagner's last opera, Parsifal. (Originally
      > the Ring was forged from the Rheingold by Alberich, when he
      renounced
      > love. In some sense the gold can be treated as the spiritual
      > potential of mankind.) The Chalice of Grail is the next phase of
      the
      > Rheingold. When the Cup becomes empty, it can be filled with the
      love
      > of Christ. This is the "final" redemption to Alberich's curse, when
      > he renounced love to get personal power.
      >
      > Still a few words about the Grail legend. It is said that from the
      > crown of Lucifer a diamond fell, and out of it the chalice (Grail)
      > was made. Now Lucifer brings to my mind "manas". We can think about
      > the teaching that redeemed Lucifer is the Holy Ghost. Crown is
      > something that is above the head. And what is above Lucifer
      (=manas)?
      > It is of course buddhi (life-spirit). So Grail is connected to the
      > Christ Event and buddhi; it is linked to some kind of "Christ-
      force".
      > According Dr. Steiner we can get a "seed" to our resurrection body
      > from Christ Jesus, and I think that this life-spirit is an
      essential
      > factor in the resurrection body.
      >
      > I am sorry if this text is "too compact"; I'm no "wizard of words"
      > like our friend Bradford. But I hope that some ideas are
      > understandable, even if they are presented in a "rudimentary" form.
      >
      > Warm Regards: Joksu
      >
      > P.S: Warm congratulations to Bradford and Tara!
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy
      > Unsubscribe:
      > anthroposophy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > List owner: anthroposophy-owner@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • Soledad-Cielo-Azure
      Dear Danny, Joksu and other Friends in Christ, Forgive my seeming to barge in here and the only excuse I m able in truth to offer would be the subtle and
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 3, 2003
        Dear Danny, Joksu and other Friends in Christ,

        Forgive my seeming to barge in here and the only excuse I'm able in truth to
        offer would be the subtle and beautiful implications "hiding" within your
        exchanges: Joksu's breadth of vision hinted by Wagner's "Ring" cycle and
        Danny's comprehension and apt response! Where is it that Steiner mentions
        the Valkries' role of carrying the fallen warriors back to Valhalla,
        illustrating an enormous grasp of truth Wagner handed us in this incredibly
        beautiful format, so closely aligned to not only truth but also the Music of
        the Spheres? Joksu, perhaps we shall have to wait for your Angel to speak
        through you during your so lovely and long Winter nights and hopefully the
        Kalavalla as well? Forgive my spelling errors, all. Thank you, too, Danny,
        for the dear-to-my-heart poem so lovingly displayed for all of us to enjoy.

        Lovingly,

        Soledad


        Hi Danny, dear Brother!


        --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, danifyou@t... wrote:
        >
        > Nice to see you back Joksu!
        > (Hmm, have I said that before?...)

        *** That might have happened a couple of times, but it is (again)
        refreshing to read your "invitation". (It seems that a poetic soul
        can, even from "vague messages", allways pick up something useful!)

        >
        > Well I heard a Ringing call; to be here with you talk. So here I am.
        >
        > I choose the Life-Spirit aspect of your post.
        >
        > Concerning-considering it as a Resurrection agent, a 'Stimulating'
        opening wide to the Cosmos, a Force, I concur. This aspect of Man
        methinks could well be described as Love as --> a Deeply Profound
        marking
        > Spiritual/Religious experience in the Temple of Grace. This Seed
        aspect just as you speak act as in us as a lasting echo of
        Transformative Homeopathic touch.
        >

        joksu writes:

        Yes, it is fine that you pointed out the "Love-aspect". A spiritual
        teacher said once that we can get the seed to our resurrection (or
        transfiguration) body from Jesus Christ, but that seed is then
        nurtured by the loving thoughts and feelings of our fellow men.
        Mankind forms a unity and love is the "cement" which keeps us all
        together. I think that it was St. Paul who said something like "we
        are all members in the body of Christ".

        Great responsibilities and great possibilities are bestowed upon us
        humans. In this context it is easier to understand, why Dr. Steiner
        said that if we take one step "in knowledge", we should take
        three "ethical steps". Also some kind of antidote to modern
        materialistic thinking can be found from the advice, that we must
        learn to think with our heart.

        (So, keep going on your hearty and poetic "track", Danny! Maybe some
        day I manage to write my first poem in this incarnation?)


        Take care
        Joksu

        > For the thing is that Life-Spirit is not really something we 'Use';
        rather, is, as I would for now describe it first-hand first time,
        perhaps not perfectly right; an imprint arising from Christ and
        a "Choir" out of the Warm-Sound filled worlds(correct me if and where
        I'm found wrong with this immediate last description; something more
        precise is also desirable; as in who(Hierarchical "Presidency" and
        intrinsic means of action found in Entelechial Sovereignty-Ruling
        Prniciples) does what(Process) and out of what(Worlds, Sheaths)[This
        is really a Science to be studied with the help of Rudy!],
        an 'Experience', an 'Event' occur in you, but you do not work, as in
        process-activate 'Employ' the Life-Spirit, it is bestow upon you, Ô
        Moral one of the Highest kind... ;)
        >
        > Go now in Peace dear once under the fig tree Joksu...
        >
        > But come back later though ;)
        >
        >
        > Danny
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: joksu57<jouko.sorvali@k...>
        > Hello Listmates!
        >
        > There are many interesting discussions going on the list and it
        is
        > hard to remain silent when the word "Ring" is mentioned. So maybe
        it
        > is a good moment for me to "wake up" from my "summer-hibernation"
        > (mental activity is much easier for me, when it's cold and
        > dark "outside", and there's plenty of "it" here in Finland!) and
        try
        > to make some comments abouts these interesting subjects.
        >
        > The incident in the Lord of the Rings where Frodo must destroy the
        > Ring and he is unable to drop it, has allways made a great impact
        to
        > me. Then Gollum appers on the scene and with his help the mission
        is
        > accomplished. Earlier in the book Gollums life is spared, even
        though
        > he poses a dire threat to the ringbearers. So there is
        no "rational"
        > reason why Gollum is not killed.
        >
        > I think that these passeges can give a hint towards a new attitude
        > concerning evil. When Gollums life is spared, then it is eventually
        > through karma that the Ring is destroyed. It is also very important
        > that the Ring is not used. The Ring means personal power and
        > eventually all power belongs to God. One must also learn to give
        > personal karma "to the hand of Christ".
        >
        > I cannot think Tolkien's Ring without connections to Wagner's "Ring-
        > cycle". Niebelungen's Ring has many same qualities than "Tolkiens
        > Ring". Only the ahrimanic figure Alberich can use it to his
        anvantage
        > (getting gold&power); to others it means only disaster. In the last
        > opera of the Ring-cycle (Götterdämmerung) the Ring is returned to
        the
        > waves of Rhein. Through water (feeling, love) can the curse be
        washed
        > away (Alberich placed a curse on the Ring, when it was taken from
        > him). In the same time Valhalla is burning. Valhalla is some sort
        > of "warrior's heaven" and a very respected "place" during the time
        of
        > the Old Covenant. But after the Christ Event we have got higher
        > ideals, so Wagner had very accurate insights in his operas (not in
        > his writings, though). This is also a proper time to remember what
        > Bradford has posted on this list about Mars, Buddha , St. Fransis
        and
        > the "after-death" states..
        >
        > Wagner didn't stop his "story" there, when the Ring was returned to
        > Rhein and Rheinmaidens. The next "evolutionary phase" of the
        > Rheingold can be seen in Wagner's last opera, Parsifal. (Originally
        > the Ring was forged from the Rheingold by Alberich, when he
        renounced
        > love. In some sense the gold can be treated as the spiritual
        > potential of mankind.) The Chalice of Grail is the next phase of
        the
        > Rheingold. When the Cup becomes empty, it can be filled with the
        love
        > of Christ. This is the "final" redemption to Alberich's curse, when
        > he renounced love to get personal power.
        >
        > Still a few words about the Grail legend. It is said that from the
        > crown of Lucifer a diamond fell, and out of it the chalice (Grail)
        > was made. Now Lucifer brings to my mind "manas". We can think about
        > the teaching that redeemed Lucifer is the Holy Ghost. Crown is
        > something that is above the head. And what is above Lucifer
        (=manas)?
        > It is of course buddhi (life-spirit). So Grail is connected to the
        > Christ Event and buddhi; it is linked to some kind of "Christ-
        force".
        > According Dr. Steiner we can get a "seed" to our resurrection body
        > from Christ Jesus, and I think that this life-spirit is an
        essential
        > factor in the resurrection body.
        >
        > I am sorry if this text is "too compact"; I'm no "wizard of words"
        > like our friend Bradford. But I hope that some ideas are
        > understandable, even if they are presented in a "rudimentary" form.
        >
        > Warm Regards: Joksu
        >
        > P.S: Warm congratulations to Bradford and Tara!
        >
      • holderlin66
        ... Dear Joksu; These timid Finnish elemental beings have been catered to far too long in that wintry clime. My friend, who lives down the street is going to
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 3, 2003
          --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "joksu57" <jouko.sorvali@k...>
          >
          > P.S: Warm congratulations to Bradford and Tara!

          Dear Joksu;

          These timid Finnish elemental beings have been catered to far too
          long in that wintry clime. My friend, who lives down the street is
          going to be going out to Finland again with his company. His name is
          Norm and we are on a Tennis team together. His wife is named Deb.
          Norm and I were playing a doubles match and everytime the ball would
          come, Norm would say he had it, but in the last split second he would
          say, "you get it". Well we had a wonderfully heated match and the
          final, critical point came and you know what happened! Well we lost.
          We both burst out laughing having had such a blast playing a full
          three sets, but the topper was that good ole Norm thought he had it
          and in the last second, I couldn't get it... partly because I was
          already laughing and blurted out, "Don't Do that!" and we both fell
          down on the court and howled.

          I was reading in a reference about Oswald Spengler that Steiner had
          made, all about the Swedish people. It was said, by Steiner that
          those in the North lived so deeply into the elemental world around
          them.. they so satisfied the elmental community that they became
          teachers, the souls of the Northerners became teachers after death on
          just exactly what the Elemental community needs from humanity. But
          like the illusive TOMKIN, jOKSU slinks off into the woods after
          droping her usual ten pound weight of rich cheese.

          I hope you have been introduced to Starbirgarden. Believe it or not,
          you ole Vidar, hiding, Michael soul, you two and we all should talk.
          It was a bold and brave moment, but let it not fail to call you out
          further. You know the Green Man or the Jupiter Being who separated
          off as the Naked Man from Christ, is very interesting. Talk about
          shy. What a transposed Nature mystery is this hidden being. Shyness
          was how he appeared, suddenly amongst the disciples on the eve of the
          Father forces... leaving the Sun Being as well, running deep into the
          woods and now, storing up all that we produce of the new song
          together for the rich world of the New Elemental inspirations we all
          will need for a future Earth.

          We will need these forces to form the social seed of the Spirit Self
          or Manas from each other. Rich plant lore is being discussed here. I
          had both my children born in Hampstead Heath and lived there by Keats
          Grove. Keats Grove and I became poet trackers as I enriched myself on
          the mighty lore of the Romantics. I apparently have some karma in
          that region of reality.

          But I got a colored plant book by Culpepper, it was an old book with
          colored pictures of each plant and their planetary sign and influence
          and healing virtue. You have no idea how this impressed me. In order
          to go to School in Dornach, I had to leave England, lugging the
          little tots on my shoulder and stay in Dormiouse France by
          Briancson.. up in a walk up mountain top retreat, no telephones, no
          cars, above the electrical grid and me and my plant book and the
          elementals of the mountain went out every day. The Culpepper book not
          only showed the planets but indicated the healing properties, "The
          virtues" of the little plant spirits. Gad I was in hog heaven. My
          heart soared. I could study the little elemental spirits of the plant
          world and how star virtues were awakened through a botony reality.

          Naturally if you had George McDonald, as I did, the beings started to
          peep out. But they were very shy and very wild and very timid and
          hey, Joksu..weaving in the dreamy clairvoyant earth forces, listening
          to the Phantom...listening for Vidar and hearing the tinging Ring of
          Truth - sort of like you. There are secrets of the Spirit Self and
          connections to both nature and the brutal passage past the
          Intellectual Soul, that are hidden and held by the Holy Cosmic Pan
          being that which was creamed off of the mighty Christ Being, the very
          foam of the etheric world substance and his nakedness, a virtue of
          innocent love. Not gritty Pan, but love substance that is recently
          circulating around us here.

          I had written here, awhile back, about Elizabeth B. Browning's
          version of "The Great God Pan is Dead". The secret mystery of the
          soul Calendar verses weave in the secret heart of the Phantom, the
          hidden Vidar giant. Vidar, as many do not know, is Michael, who, we
          might speculate, as his mission has been handed to humanity...his
          image is startling. He becomes like Launcelot, mad, weeds for hair,
          bearded and retreats while the mighty Ragnorok, which is the dawning
          events we are facing now rush on and kill Odhin- Odhin is devoured by
          the Fenrir Wolf, the Ahrimanic forces and it is only Vidar-Michael
          and the Michael School that Steiner so represents that holds the Seed
          forces of the new humanity.. Steiner uses the word Odhin-Boding-
          Buddha to show the inner linkage to the Odhin/Buddha identity.
          Meaning the blueprints of the Michael School that hold the new
          Chymical Wedding bodies, created by CR.. the new seed forces created
          by human and Angelic Initiates, those who have come to the Wedding
          and find a path of INitiation.. apparently few, for Buddha and the
          Mars paradigm with Odhin being devoured does not bode well for
          humanities understanding current confrontation with the Mars paradigm
          to the Mercury paradigm.

          So, you see, we need your shadowy face from the glade, from the sea,
          from the woods to peak out once in awhile..because, I think I speak
          for everyone hear...including Frodo.. that Wagner and particularly
          Nietzsche always need to be included in our Rosebud Arthurian
          endeavors. It was through their efforts and bluff that allowed
          Steiner to nurture his initiation forces enough so that he could face
          Ahrimanic symptomology and meet the Fenrir Wolf head on. Vidar does
          something so strange, from the scraps of leather, of discarded Pisces
          forces of the feet, discarded forces, what humanity has wasted of
          Intellectual destiny and Pisces forces, Vidar makes a foot- Karma
          insights- that cannot save Odhin, but does finally nail Ahriman.
          Shattered and fragmented pieces of the karma of destiny and fishes.
          Think on it my dear friends, think on it.

          I cannot wait to eventually meet you both.
          Bradford and of course, beloved Tara.
        • danifyou@tv.videotron.ca
          Brilliant Joksu, Amazing Bradford, Lovely-sweet Jan(here is also found a reply to your ever pertinence - last post), dear Individualities from all parts of the
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 3, 2003
            Brilliant Joksu, Amazing Bradford, Lovely-sweet Jan(here is also found a reply to your ever pertinence - last post), dear Individualities from all parts of the world active(special 'Hi' to our new companions Maurice and Soledad) in Christ here manifested and gathered.

            Our tone is Golden Right out of the Michael-mood, Spirit of our Time, Wonder and Elation; Present New Design!

            Indeed active that we are, plain to see Fertile fact 'e-digits' precipitate of Spirit/daily food of togetherness, ever sharing the Communion; we read one another with warm interest, Fellowship-spirit of exploration; Heart, Wisdom, Lives and Intelligence with many faces, many pages here in multiple fashions(somehow New Paladins Congregation in a Banquet of Communication); how remove indeed from the Ahrimanic ever Legions of factions; rather dwelling in Affection, we cast into fetter, bind the Prince of this World, educate him to the better evolutionnary Earth's Meaning!

            Found then is us in Talents-unfolding what we well recognize:

            Our Work and Art is to Weave a higher perfection.
            With ambition courageous,
            Out of any 'momentaneous'
            Source-arise-stir the Magic of all situations!

            A moment always right, a combination of elements in perfect relation and involvement within the "Cosmic Pool"; all fluctuations speaking of the Diversity seen and known from within God also called Universe;
            first principle methought, now uttering:
            *EXISTENCE*, *I AM*.

            "Be at Peace and know that I AM GOD"
            Once heard a prophet...( most likely Moses ;)
            And this new verse to add now from this same Source known to us from Christ; and so these
            as One to us also say, for us to know; Father speaking through the Son, Creative Logos:

            I "I AM" Gods!


            Take the Impulse!
            "And so they shall be called Son of God"...
            And so from having seen in a Mirror at first the things to come, a VISION from Above; this Other TIME After Through Christ IN SPACE-CREATING WITH US a SUN, an another World, Divine, another Kingdom!

            When the first Adam is laid on the Cross of Death, in trust of the Father we say: "take us into your arms, we have known your Son and this promise to us: Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my Name(LOVE) to you He shall provide"; shall arise this Abundant life out 'Heart Cry'-plea resounding in the Desert of the Lifeless Mineral Matter; heard then and sent to us this Answer WILLED, to and for us the Good Willed willing and participating in the Redemption:
            The Immortal *New Man - New Adam* found in the Resurrection; Resurrection to the Pure Unfallen(Reversal/Turning Point of the Earth) Spiritual State; Christ in us, us in Christ; Friend-Masters of Transsubstantiation:
            Victorious in 'WAY, TRUTH AND LIFE'!


            In Priestly guise,
            (Happen sometimes... ;)
            Danny

            P.S. to Maurice:
            Dear sharp and appreciated one. Let me tell you regarding your "Valkyries/Steiner question", I happen to be way behind in what I call
            "referencial athroposophical litteratures"...
            Maybe Joksu or someone else will come up with what will most please you as an answer; to reply to this point referencial specificly asked, this myself I cannot do.

            It is always nice to read about the news about and emanating from you and your section of the Earth.

            Looking forward for more,
            Danifyou


            -----Original Message-----
            From: joksu57<jouko.sorvali@...>
            Hi Danny, dear Brother!


            --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, danifyou@t... wrote:
            >
            > Nice to see you back Joksu!
            > (Hmm, have I said that before?...)

            *** That might have happened a couple of times, but it is (again)
            refreshing to read your "invitation". (It seems that a poetic soul
            can, even from "vague messages", allways pick up something useful!)

            >
            > Well I heard a Ringing call; to be here with you talk. So here I am.
            >
            > I choose the Life-Spirit aspect of your post.
            >
            > Concerning-considering it as a Resurrection agent, a 'Stimulating'
            opening wide to the Cosmos, a Force, I concur. This aspect of Man
            methinks could well be described as Love as --> a Deeply Profound
            marking
            > Spiritual/Religious experience in the Temple of Grace. This Seed
            aspect just as you speak act as in us as a lasting echo of
            Transformative Homeopathic touch.
            >

            joksu writes:

            Yes, it is fine that you pointed out the "Love-aspect". A spiritual
            teacher said once that we can get the seed to our resurrection (or
            transfiguration) body from Jesus Christ, but that seed is then
            nurtured by the loving thoughts and feelings of our fellow men.
            Mankind forms a unity and love is the "cement" which keeps us all
            together. I think that it was St. Paul who said something like "we
            are all members in the body of Christ".

            Great responsibilities and great possibilities are bestowed upon us
            humans. In this context it is easier to understand, why Dr. Steiner
            said that if we take one step "in knowledge", we should take
            three "ethical steps". Also some kind of antidote to modern
            materialistic thinking can be found from the advice, that we must
            learn to think with our heart.

            (So, keep going on your hearty and poetic "track", Danny! Maybe some
            day I manage to write my first poem in this incarnation?)


            Take care
            Joksu

            > For the thing is that Life-Spirit is not really something we 'Use';
            rather, is, as I would for now describe it first-hand first time,
            perhaps not perfectly right; an imprint arising from Christ and
            a "Choir" out of the Warm-Sound filled worlds(correct me if and where
            I'm found wrong with this immediate last description; something more
            precise is also desirable; as in who(Hierarchical "Presidency" and
            intrinsic means of action found in Entelechial Sovereignty-Ruling
            Prniciples) does what(Process) and out of what(Worlds, Sheaths)[This
            is really a Science to be studied with the help of Rudy!],
            an 'Experience', an 'Event' occur in you, but you do not work, as in
            process-activate 'Employ' the Life-Spirit, it is bestow upon you, Ô
            Moral one of the Highest kind... ;)
            >
            > Go now in Peace dear once under the fig tree Joksu...
            >
            > But come back later though ;)
            >
            >
            > Danny
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: joksu57<jouko.sorvali@k...>
            > Hello Listmates!
            >
            > There are many interesting discussions going on the list and it
            is
            > hard to remain silent when the word "Ring" is mentioned. So maybe
            it
            > is a good moment for me to "wake up" from my "summer-hibernation"
            > (mental activity is much easier for me, when it's cold and
            > dark "outside", and there's plenty of "it" here in Finland!) and
            try
            > to make some comments abouts these interesting subjects.
            >
            > The incident in the Lord of the Rings where Frodo must destroy the
            > Ring and he is unable to drop it, has allways made a great impact
            to
            > me. Then Gollum appers on the scene and with his help the mission
            is
            > accomplished. Earlier in the book Gollums life is spared, even
            though
            > he poses a dire threat to the ringbearers. So there is
            no "rational"
            > reason why Gollum is not killed.
            >
            > I think that these passeges can give a hint towards a new attitude
            > concerning evil. When Gollums life is spared, then it is eventually
            > through karma that the Ring is destroyed. It is also very important
            > that the Ring is not used. The Ring means personal power and
            > eventually all power belongs to God. One must also learn to give
            > personal karma "to the hand of Christ".
            >
            > I cannot think Tolkien's Ring without connections to Wagner's "Ring-
            > cycle". Niebelungen's Ring has many same qualities than "Tolkiens
            > Ring". Only the ahrimanic figure Alberich can use it to his
            anvantage
            > (getting gold&power); to others it means only disaster. In the last
            > opera of the Ring-cycle (Götterdämmerung) the Ring is returned to
            the
            > waves of Rhein. Through water (feeling, love) can the curse be
            washed
            > away (Alberich placed a curse on the Ring, when it was taken from
            > him). In the same time Valhalla is burning. Valhalla is some sort
            > of "warrior's heaven" and a very respected "place" during the time
            of
            > the Old Covenant. But after the Christ Event we have got higher
            > ideals, so Wagner had very accurate insights in his operas (not in
            > his writings, though). This is also a proper time to remember what
            > Bradford has posted on this list about Mars, Buddha , St. Fransis
            and
            > the "after-death" states..
            >
            > Wagner didn't stop his "story" there, when the Ring was returned to
            > Rhein and Rheinmaidens. The next "evolutionary phase" of the
            > Rheingold can be seen in Wagner's last opera, Parsifal. (Originally
            > the Ring was forged from the Rheingold by Alberich, when he
            renounced
            > love. In some sense the gold can be treated as the spiritual
            > potential of mankind.) The Chalice of Grail is the next phase of
            the
            > Rheingold. When the Cup becomes empty, it can be filled with the
            love
            > of Christ. This is the "final" redemption to Alberich's curse, when
            > he renounced love to get personal power.
            >
            > Still a few words about the Grail legend. It is said that from the
            > crown of Lucifer a diamond fell, and out of it the chalice (Grail)
            > was made. Now Lucifer brings to my mind "manas". We can think about
            > the teaching that redeemed Lucifer is the Holy Ghost. Crown is
            > something that is above the head. And what is above Lucifer
            (=manas)?
            > It is of course buddhi (life-spirit). So Grail is connected to the
            > Christ Event and buddhi; it is linked to some kind of "Christ-
            force".
            > According Dr. Steiner we can get a "seed" to our resurrection body
            > from Christ Jesus, and I think that this life-spirit is an
            essential
            > factor in the resurrection body.
            >
            > I am sorry if this text is "too compact"; I'm no "wizard of words"
            > like our friend Bradford. But I hope that some ideas are
            > understandable, even if they are presented in a "rudimentary" form.
            >
            > Warm Regards: Joksu
            >
            > P.S: Warm congratulations to Bradford and Tara!
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy
            > Unsubscribe:
            > anthroposophy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > List owner: anthroposophy-owner@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



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          • joksu57
            ... truth to ... within your ... cycle and ... mentions ... incredibly ... Music of ... to speak ... hopefully the ... Danny, ... to enjoy. ... Joksu writes:
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 4, 2003
              --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Soledad-Cielo-Azure" <soledad-
              cielo-azure@e...> wrote:
              > Dear Danny, Joksu and other Friends in Christ,
              >
              > Forgive my seeming to barge in here and the only excuse I'm able in
              truth to
              > offer would be the subtle and beautiful implications "hiding"
              within your
              > exchanges: Joksu's breadth of vision hinted by Wagner's "Ring"
              cycle and
              > Danny's comprehension and apt response! Where is it that Steiner
              mentions
              > the Valkries' role of carrying the fallen warriors back to Valhalla,
              > illustrating an enormous grasp of truth Wagner handed us in this
              incredibly
              > beautiful format, so closely aligned to not only truth but also the
              Music of
              > the Spheres? Joksu, perhaps we shall have to wait for your Angel
              to speak
              > through you during your so lovely and long Winter nights and
              hopefully the
              > Kalavalla as well? Forgive my spelling errors, all. Thank you, too,
              Danny,
              > for the dear-to-my-heart poem so lovingly displayed for all of us
              to enjoy.
              >
              > Lovingly,
              >
              > Soledad


              Joksu writes:

              Hello Soledad!

              "In this party everyone is invited!" It's really nice to have you
              with us in this thread.

              I'm afraid that I don't know every reference, which Steiner made
              concerning Wagner and his operas. So I'm not sure, if Steiner had
              mentioned the Valkyries. But I try to give some possible
              interpretations.

              1) Valkyries can be seen as representing our Higher Selves. From
              every incarnation the best part of the "personality" (or the life
              just lived) is "saved" by the Valkyrie and taken to the Devachan, or
              Heaven. There is "gives growth" to our immortal part.

              2) The 9 Valkyries can represent the 9 angel hierarchies.

              3) Valkyries can be seen representing "The Old Covenant-system". I
              think it was St. Paul (?) who said, that "you got the Law from the
              angels and did not keep it", or something like that. Mercy, Grace and
              Love came to us through the Son. There was also a change in the
              ethical ideals. Also significant changes occured in the whole
              initiation system.

              Some of these great changes are desrcibed or hinted in the "Ring-
              cycle" and Parsifall. E.g. Siegfried had a great initiation on the
              mountain with Brûnnhilde. That was an "initiation of the old way",
              and happened in the invisible world after Siefried had won over
              dragon (giant Fafner), which represents the kundalini power. In
              Götterdämmerung when Siegfried brings Brûnnhilde down from the
              mountain "among ordinary people", things go wrong.

              The Wedding(s) (=initiation) in Götterdämmerung is a failure. If it
              has succeeded, it had ment an initiation in waking consciousness. But
              from our studies we know, that first initiation in waking
              consciousness happened in the babtism in Jordan and after the Mystery
              of Golgotha that became a possibility to other individuals also. That
              it confirmed through the experiences of St. Stephen and St. Paul. And
              after the second (etheric) coming of the Christ the possibilities are
              still greater.

              In the archive you can found many discussions about Wagner operas and
              maybe some day (when my time is not so limited) I try to make a more
              systematic interpretation. I have also made some comments
              about "Kalevala". E.g. in message 7624 there's something about iron
              (Mars-forces) and how they are described in Kaleva.

              Warm Regards
              Joksu

              >
              >
              > Hi Danny, dear Brother!
              >
              >
              > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, danifyou@t... wrote:
              > >
              > > Nice to see you back Joksu!
              > > (Hmm, have I said that before?...)
              >
              > *** That might have happened a couple of times, but it is (again)
              > refreshing to read your "invitation". (It seems that a poetic soul
              > can, even from "vague messages", allways pick up something useful!)
              >
              > >
              > > Well I heard a Ringing call; to be here with you talk. So here I
              am.
              > >
              > > I choose the Life-Spirit aspect of your post.
              > >
              > > Concerning-considering it as a Resurrection agent, a 'Stimulating'
              > opening wide to the Cosmos, a Force, I concur. This aspect of Man
              > methinks could well be described as Love as --> a Deeply Profound
              > marking
              > > Spiritual/Religious experience in the Temple of Grace. This Seed
              > aspect just as you speak act as in us as a lasting echo of
              > Transformative Homeopathic touch.
              > >
              >
              > joksu writes:
              >
              > Yes, it is fine that you pointed out the "Love-aspect". A
              spiritual
              > teacher said once that we can get the seed to our resurrection (or
              > transfiguration) body from Jesus Christ, but that seed is then
              > nurtured by the loving thoughts and feelings of our fellow men.
              > Mankind forms a unity and love is the "cement" which keeps us all
              > together. I think that it was St. Paul who said something like "we
              > are all members in the body of Christ".
              >
              > Great responsibilities and great possibilities are bestowed upon us
              > humans. In this context it is easier to understand, why Dr. Steiner
              > said that if we take one step "in knowledge", we should take
              > three "ethical steps". Also some kind of antidote to modern
              > materialistic thinking can be found from the advice, that we must
              > learn to think with our heart.
              >
              > (So, keep going on your hearty and poetic "track", Danny! Maybe
              some
              > day I manage to write my first poem in this incarnation?)
              >
              >
              > Take care
              > Joksu
              >
              > > For the thing is that Life-Spirit is not really something
              we 'Use';
              > rather, is, as I would for now describe it first-hand first time,
              > perhaps not perfectly right; an imprint arising from Christ and
              > a "Choir" out of the Warm-Sound filled worlds(correct me if and
              where
              > I'm found wrong with this immediate last description; something more
              > precise is also desirable; as in who(Hierarchical "Presidency" and
              > intrinsic means of action found in Entelechial Sovereignty-Ruling
              > Prniciples) does what(Process) and out of what(Worlds, Sheaths)[This
              > is really a Science to be studied with the help of Rudy!],
              > an 'Experience', an 'Event' occur in you, but you do not work, as in
              > process-activate 'Employ' the Life-Spirit, it is bestow upon you, Ô
              > Moral one of the Highest kind... ;)
              > >
              > > Go now in Peace dear once under the fig tree Joksu...
              > >
              > > But come back later though ;)
              > >
              > >
              > > Danny
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: joksu57<jouko.sorvali@k...>
              > > Hello Listmates!
              > >
              > > There are many interesting discussions going on the list and it
              > is
              > > hard to remain silent when the word "Ring" is mentioned. So maybe
              > it
              > > is a good moment for me to "wake up" from my "summer-hibernation"
              > > (mental activity is much easier for me, when it's cold and
              > > dark "outside", and there's plenty of "it" here in Finland!) and
              > try
              > > to make some comments abouts these interesting subjects.
              > >
              > > The incident in the Lord of the Rings where Frodo must destroy the
              > > Ring and he is unable to drop it, has allways made a great impact
              > to
              > > me. Then Gollum appers on the scene and with his help the mission
              > is
              > > accomplished. Earlier in the book Gollums life is spared, even
              > though
              > > he poses a dire threat to the ringbearers. So there is
              > no "rational"
              > > reason why Gollum is not killed.
              > >
              > > I think that these passeges can give a hint towards a new attitude
              > > concerning evil. When Gollums life is spared, then it is
              eventually
              > > through karma that the Ring is destroyed. It is also very
              important
              > > that the Ring is not used. The Ring means personal power and
              > > eventually all power belongs to God. One must also learn to give
              > > personal karma "to the hand of Christ".
              > >
              > > I cannot think Tolkien's Ring without connections to
              Wagner's "Ring-
              > > cycle". Niebelungen's Ring has many same qualities than "Tolkiens
              > > Ring". Only the ahrimanic figure Alberich can use it to his
              > anvantage
              > > (getting gold&power); to others it means only disaster. In the
              last
              > > opera of the Ring-cycle (Götterdämmerung) the Ring is returned to
              > the
              > > waves of Rhein. Through water (feeling, love) can the curse be
              > washed
              > > away (Alberich placed a curse on the Ring, when it was taken from
              > > him). In the same time Valhalla is burning. Valhalla is some sort
              > > of "warrior's heaven" and a very respected "place" during the time
              > of
              > > the Old Covenant. But after the Christ Event we have got higher
              > > ideals, so Wagner had very accurate insights in his operas (not in
              > > his writings, though). This is also a proper time to remember what
              > > Bradford has posted on this list about Mars, Buddha , St. Fransis
              > and
              > > the "after-death" states..
              > >
              > > Wagner didn't stop his "story" there, when the Ring was returned
              to
              > > Rhein and Rheinmaidens. The next "evolutionary phase" of the
              > > Rheingold can be seen in Wagner's last opera, Parsifal.
              (Originally
              > > the Ring was forged from the Rheingold by Alberich, when he
              > renounced
              > > love. In some sense the gold can be treated as the spiritual
              > > potential of mankind.) The Chalice of Grail is the next phase of
              > the
              > > Rheingold. When the Cup becomes empty, it can be filled with the
              > love
              > > of Christ. This is the "final" redemption to Alberich's curse,
              when
              > > he renounced love to get personal power.
              > >
              > > Still a few words about the Grail legend. It is said that from the
              > > crown of Lucifer a diamond fell, and out of it the chalice (Grail)
              > > was made. Now Lucifer brings to my mind "manas". We can think
              about
              > > the teaching that redeemed Lucifer is the Holy Ghost. Crown is
              > > something that is above the head. And what is above Lucifer
              > (=manas)?
              > > It is of course buddhi (life-spirit). So Grail is connected to the
              > > Christ Event and buddhi; it is linked to some kind of "Christ-
              > force".
              > > According Dr. Steiner we can get a "seed" to our resurrection body
              > > from Christ Jesus, and I think that this life-spirit is an
              > essential
              > > factor in the resurrection body.
              > >
              > > I am sorry if this text is "too compact"; I'm no "wizard of words"
              > > like our friend Bradford. But I hope that some ideas are
              > > understandable, even if they are presented in a "rudimentary"
              form.
              > >
              > > Warm Regards: Joksu
              > >
              > > P.S: Warm congratulations to Bradford and Tara!
              > >
            • danifyou@tv.videotron.ca
              Oh! I have to apologize to Soledad, for I thought when I replied sometime before that it was Maurice who asked that question, while it was you Soledad(Paul
              Message 6 of 9 , Jul 4, 2003
                Oh! I have to apologize to Soledad, for I thought when I replied sometime before that it was Maurice who asked that question, while it was you Soledad(Paul then?)
                You must have understood the mistake mine.
                There is such an effervescence, my "Pointer-impression" to your post linked a bit beside, to Maurice instead...

                Remains that this Herb Gathering; Hmm...
                to read between lines, an event of Rudolf Steiner's time in the course of his life....
                There a Nexus-reapparation for us in Anthroposophy gathered 'e' and spirit-wise now to find ourselves in?

                Riddling Rhyme!

                Danny

                -----Original Message-----
                From: joksu57<jouko.sorvali@...>
                --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Soledad-Cielo-Azure" <soledad-
                cielo-azure@e...> wrote:
                > Dear Danny, Joksu and other Friends in Christ,
                >
                > Forgive my seeming to barge in here and the only excuse I'm able in
                truth to
                > offer would be the subtle and beautiful implications "hiding"
                within your
                > exchanges: Joksu's breadth of vision hinted by Wagner's "Ring"
                cycle and
                > Danny's comprehension and apt response! Where is it that Steiner
                mentions
                > the Valkries' role of carrying the fallen warriors back to Valhalla,
                > illustrating an enormous grasp of truth Wagner handed us in this
                incredibly
                > beautiful format, so closely aligned to not only truth but also the
                Music of
                > the Spheres? Joksu, perhaps we shall have to wait for your Angel
                to speak
                > through you during your so lovely and long Winter nights and
                hopefully the
                > Kalavalla as well? Forgive my spelling errors, all. Thank you, too,
                Danny,
                > for the dear-to-my-heart poem so lovingly displayed for all of us
                to enjoy.
                >
                > Lovingly,
                >
                > Soledad


                Joksu writes:

                Hello Soledad!

                "In this party everyone is invited!" It's really nice to have you
                with us in this thread.

                I'm afraid that I don't know every reference, which Steiner made
                concerning Wagner and his operas. So I'm not sure, if Steiner had
                mentioned the Valkyries. But I try to give some possible
                interpretations.

                1) Valkyries can be seen as representing our Higher Selves. From
                every incarnation the best part of the "personality" (or the life
                just lived) is "saved" by the Valkyrie and taken to the Devachan, or
                Heaven. There is "gives growth" to our immortal part.

                2) The 9 Valkyries can represent the 9 angel hierarchies.

                3) Valkyries can be seen representing "The Old Covenant-system". I
                think it was St. Paul (?) who said, that "you got the Law from the
                angels and did not keep it", or something like that. Mercy, Grace and
                Love came to us through the Son. There was also a change in the
                ethical ideals. Also significant changes occured in the whole
                initiation system.

                Some of these great changes are desrcibed or hinted in the "Ring-
                cycle" and Parsifall. E.g. Siegfried had a great initiation on the
                mountain with Brûnnhilde. That was an "initiation of the old way",
                and happened in the invisible world after Siefried had won over
                dragon (giant Fafner), which represents the kundalini power. In
                Götterdämmerung when Siegfried brings Brûnnhilde down from the
                mountain "among ordinary people", things go wrong.

                The Wedding(s) (=initiation) in Götterdämmerung is a failure. If it
                has succeeded, it had ment an initiation in waking consciousness. But
                from our studies we know, that first initiation in waking
                consciousness happened in the babtism in Jordan and after the Mystery
                of Golgotha that became a possibility to other individuals also. That
                it confirmed through the experiences of St. Stephen and St. Paul. And
                after the second (etheric) coming of the Christ the possibilities are
                still greater.

                In the archive you can found many discussions about Wagner operas and
                maybe some day (when my time is not so limited) I try to make a more
                systematic interpretation. I have also made some comments
                about "Kalevala". E.g. in message 7624 there's something about iron
                (Mars-forces) and how they are described in Kaleva.

                Warm Regards
                Joksu

                >
                >
                > Hi Danny, dear Brother!
                >
                >
                > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, danifyou@t... wrote:
                > >
                > > Nice to see you back Joksu!
                > > (Hmm, have I said that before?...)
                >
                > *** That might have happened a couple of times, but it is (again)
                > refreshing to read your "invitation". (It seems that a poetic soul
                > can, even from "vague messages", allways pick up something useful!)
                >
                > >
                > > Well I heard a Ringing call; to be here with you talk. So here I
                am.
                > >
                > > I choose the Life-Spirit aspect of your post.
                > >
                > > Concerning-considering it as a Resurrection agent, a 'Stimulating'
                > opening wide to the Cosmos, a Force, I concur. This aspect of Man
                > methinks could well be described as Love as --> a Deeply Profound
                > marking
                > > Spiritual/Religious experience in the Temple of Grace. This Seed
                > aspect just as you speak act as in us as a lasting echo of
                > Transformative Homeopathic touch.
                > >
                >
                > joksu writes:
                >
                > Yes, it is fine that you pointed out the "Love-aspect". A
                spiritual
                > teacher said once that we can get the seed to our resurrection (or
                > transfiguration) body from Jesus Christ, but that seed is then
                > nurtured by the loving thoughts and feelings of our fellow men.
                > Mankind forms a unity and love is the "cement" which keeps us all
                > together. I think that it was St. Paul who said something like "we
                > are all members in the body of Christ".
                >
                > Great responsibilities and great possibilities are bestowed upon us
                > humans. In this context it is easier to understand, why Dr. Steiner
                > said that if we take one step "in knowledge", we should take
                > three "ethical steps". Also some kind of antidote to modern
                > materialistic thinking can be found from the advice, that we must
                > learn to think with our heart.
                >
                > (So, keep going on your hearty and poetic "track", Danny! Maybe
                some
                > day I manage to write my first poem in this incarnation?)
                >
                >
                > Take care
                > Joksu
                >
                > > For the thing is that Life-Spirit is not really something
                we 'Use';
                > rather, is, as I would for now describe it first-hand first time,
                > perhaps not perfectly right; an imprint arising from Christ and
                > a "Choir" out of the Warm-Sound filled worlds(correct me if and
                where
                > I'm found wrong with this immediate last description; something more
                > precise is also desirable; as in who(Hierarchical "Presidency" and
                > intrinsic means of action found in Entelechial Sovereignty-Ruling
                > Prniciples) does what(Process) and out of what(Worlds, Sheaths)[This
                > is really a Science to be studied with the help of Rudy!],
                > an 'Experience', an 'Event' occur in you, but you do not work, as in
                > process-activate 'Employ' the Life-Spirit, it is bestow upon you, Ô
                > Moral one of the Highest kind... ;)
                > >
                > > Go now in Peace dear once under the fig tree Joksu...
                > >
                > > But come back later though ;)
                > >
                > >
                > > Danny
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: joksu57<jouko.sorvali@k...>
                > > Hello Listmates!
                > >
                > > There are many interesting discussions going on the list and it
                > is
                > > hard to remain silent when the word "Ring" is mentioned. So maybe
                > it
                > > is a good moment for me to "wake up" from my "summer-hibernation"
                > > (mental activity is much easier for me, when it's cold and
                > > dark "outside", and there's plenty of "it" here in Finland!) and
                > try
                > > to make some comments abouts these interesting subjects.
                > >
                > > The incident in the Lord of the Rings where Frodo must destroy the
                > > Ring and he is unable to drop it, has allways made a great impact
                > to
                > > me. Then Gollum appers on the scene and with his help the mission
                > is
                > > accomplished. Earlier in the book Gollums life is spared, even
                > though
                > > he poses a dire threat to the ringbearers. So there is
                > no "rational"
                > > reason why Gollum is not killed.
                > >
                > > I think that these passeges can give a hint towards a new attitude
                > > concerning evil. When Gollums life is spared, then it is
                eventually
                > > through karma that the Ring is destroyed. It is also very
                important
                > > that the Ring is not used. The Ring means personal power and
                > > eventually all power belongs to God. One must also learn to give
                > > personal karma "to the hand of Christ".
                > >
                > > I cannot think Tolkien's Ring without connections to
                Wagner's "Ring-
                > > cycle". Niebelungen's Ring has many same qualities than "Tolkiens
                > > Ring". Only the ahrimanic figure Alberich can use it to his
                > anvantage
                > > (getting gold&power); to others it means only disaster. In the
                last
                > > opera of the Ring-cycle (Götterdämmerung) the Ring is returned to
                > the
                > > waves of Rhein. Through water (feeling, love) can the curse be
                > washed
                > > away (Alberich placed a curse on the Ring, when it was taken from
                > > him). In the same time Valhalla is burning. Valhalla is some sort
                > > of "warrior's heaven" and a very respected "place" during the time
                > of
                > > the Old Covenant. But after the Christ Event we have got higher
                > > ideals, so Wagner had very accurate insights in his operas (not in
                > > his writings, though). This is also a proper time to remember what
                > > Bradford has posted on this list about Mars, Buddha , St. Fransis
                > and
                > > the "after-death" states..
                > >
                > > Wagner didn't stop his "story" there, when the Ring was returned
                to
                > > Rhein and Rheinmaidens. The next "evolutionary phase" of the
                > > Rheingold can be seen in Wagner's last opera, Parsifal.
                (Originally
                > > the Ring was forged from the Rheingold by Alberich, when he
                > renounced
                > > love. In some sense the gold can be treated as the spiritual
                > > potential of mankind.) The Chalice of Grail is the next phase of
                > the
                > > Rheingold. When the Cup becomes empty, it can be filled with the
                > love
                > > of Christ. This is the "final" redemption to Alberich's curse,
                when
                > > he renounced love to get personal power.
                > >
                > > Still a few words about the Grail legend. It is said that from the
                > > crown of Lucifer a diamond fell, and out of it the chalice (Grail)
                > > was made. Now Lucifer brings to my mind "manas". We can think
                about
                > > the teaching that redeemed Lucifer is the Holy Ghost. Crown is
                > > something that is above the head. And what is above Lucifer
                > (=manas)?
                > > It is of course buddhi (life-spirit). So Grail is connected to the
                > > Christ Event and buddhi; it is linked to some kind of "Christ-
                > force".
                > > According Dr. Steiner we can get a "seed" to our resurrection body
                > > from Christ Jesus, and I think that this life-spirit is an
                > essential
                > > factor in the resurrection body.
                > >
                > > I am sorry if this text is "too compact"; I'm no "wizard of words"
                > > like our friend Bradford. But I hope that some ideas are
                > > understandable, even if they are presented in a "rudimentary"
                form.
                > >
                > > Warm Regards: Joksu
                > >
                > > P.S: Warm congratulations to Bradford and Tara!
                > >



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              • joksu57
                Dear Bradford! Many thanks for your thoughfull post. I m sorry that it took so long to give some kind of response, but we had some sort of spiritual workshop
                Message 7 of 9 , Jul 7, 2003
                  Dear Bradford!

                  Many thanks for your thoughfull post. I'm sorry that it took so long
                  to give some kind of response, but we had some sort of spiritual
                  workshop or "summer course" last weekend, so I was rather busy.
                  (Sometimes is seems that You are able to produce rich text faster
                  than I can read it!)



                  --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "holderlin66"
                  <holderlin66@h...> wrote:
                  >>
                  clip...
                  > I hope you have been introduced to Starbirgarden. Believe it or
                  not,
                  > you ole Vidar, hiding, Michael soul, you two and we all should
                  talk.
                  > It was a bold and brave moment, but let it not fail to call you out
                  > further. You know the Green Man or the Jupiter Being who separated
                  > off as the Naked Man from Christ, is very interesting. Talk about
                  > shy. What a transposed Nature mystery is this hidden being. Shyness
                  > was how he appeared, suddenly amongst the disciples on the eve of
                  the
                  > Father forces... leaving the Sun Being as well, running deep into
                  the
                  > woods and now, storing up all that we produce of the new song
                  > together for the rich world of the New Elemental inspirations we
                  all
                  > will need for a future Earth.


                  Joksu writes:

                  I have read the writings of Starbirdgarden and enjoyed a lot. Maybe
                  sometimes we'll have a discussion about the Book of Daniel, which is
                  also one of my favourites. (Trying to understand deep symbolical
                  texts is allways inspiring.)

                  I am not sure, if I have read about the Naked Man directly from
                  Steiner's lectures. Do you remember in which lecture is Dr. Steiner
                  dealing with this subject? But from this incident an other occured to
                  my mind. It is described at least in the Evangelium of St. John, if
                  my memory serves me:
                  Soldiers are coming to arrest Jesus Christ. Judas has pointed the
                  right person to the soldiers, but they still asked, if He was Jesus
                  of Nazareth. Then something extraordinary happens. Christ Jesus
                  says: "I AM he" and the soldiers fell to the ground.

                  If we think a commom arrest, this is truly a strange behavior. It
                  seems as Christ Jesus had momentarily appeared in His True "Form"
                  (probably linked to it, how He addressed Himself), and the soldiers
                  are instinctively throwing themselves to the ground and are paying
                  homage to Him. After a short moment the soldiers are again seeing the
                  son of a carpenter and they make the arrest.

                  clip...
                  >
                  > I had written here, awhile back, about Elizabeth B. Browning's
                  > version of "The Great God Pan is Dead". The secret mystery of the
                  > soul Calendar verses weave in the secret heart of the Phantom, the
                  > hidden Vidar giant. Vidar, as many do not know, is Michael, who, we
                  > might speculate, as his mission has been handed to humanity...his
                  > image is startling. He becomes like Launcelot, mad, weeds for hair,
                  > bearded and retreats while the mighty Ragnorok, which is the
                  dawning
                  > events we are facing now rush on and kill Odhin- Odhin is devoured
                  by
                  > the Fenrir Wolf, the Ahrimanic forces and it is only Vidar-Michael
                  > and the Michael School that Steiner so represents that holds the
                  Seed
                  > forces of the new humanity.. Steiner uses the word Odhin-Boding-
                  > Buddha to show the inner linkage to the Odhin/Buddha identity.
                  > Meaning the blueprints of the Michael School that hold the new
                  > Chymical Wedding bodies, created by CR.. the new seed forces
                  created
                  > by human and Angelic Initiates, those who have come to the Wedding
                  > and find a path of INitiation.. apparently few, for Buddha and the
                  > Mars paradigm with Odhin being devoured does not bode well for
                  > humanities understanding current confrontation with the Mars
                  paradigm
                  > to the Mercury paradigm.
                  >

                  joksu writes:

                  In our times the change from Mars paradigm to Mercury paradigm is
                  essential; it is "The Structure of Cosmic Evolution" (not written by
                  T. Kuhn, but rather by R. Steiner!). And a lot of work towards this
                  goal is also done "silently", without publicity. The "evil aspects"
                  are on the front, but there's a lot of spiritual potential
                  working "behind the scenes".


                  One is our Master (Christ) and we are all brothers! (Perhaps Danny
                  can specify, which mood this is, not a "priestly guise" necessarily?)

                  Elementary(?) and Warm Greetings:
                  Joksu (of the woods? – according to Finnish standards rather urban
                  person, though!)

                  P.S: If the meeting can "technically" be arranged, it would be fine.
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