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consciousness/conspiracy?Re:[anthroposophy]Icke and mind control

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  • elaine upton
    Dear soren, and all, Thank you, soren, for your very thoughtful reply. I do agree that consciousness on our part is called for when dealing with the world
    Message 1 of 2 , Apr 25, 2000
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      Dear soren, and all,

      Thank you, soren, for your very thoughtful reply. I do agree that
      consciousness on our part is called for when dealing with the world leaders
      --the few at the top--who push for globalization, but due to their own
      selfish materialist, economic agenda. I also agree that maybe those at the
      top are not conscious --at least not always. Yet, i think that there is a
      possibility that some of them are conscious, in a demonic sort of way.
      There's been a discussion here of Hitler's occultism, and i think there are
      secret brotherhoods, and high degree masonic types and the like, who do have
      a conscious agenda of mind manipulation and control, and they do practice
      the evil arts. Not that they are all powerful or fully conscious, but there
      is a degree of consciousness.

      On a related note, you mention the 'conspiracy theorists' as maybe
      anti-jewish. That may be so in many cases. I wouldn't know. I have heard
      someone accuse David Icke, for example, of anti-semitism. (I wonder: is
      that because he sees the Rothschild --jewish-- family as one of those at the
      top of the pyramid? But then he also sees others who are not jewish at the
      top--the Windsor family of the Queen of England, the Rockefellers and so
      forth...)

      Then, you close with a question and a comment on my comment.

      I wrote about replacing fear with love when dealing with power issues,
      conspiracy theories and mind control.

      You replied:

      >Why always replace fear with love, sometimes anger is love. Remember when
      >Christ furiously drove the traders out of the temple.

      Perhaps we are not communicating here. I said i find it ideal to replace
      *fear* with *love*. Then you write about *anger* as though it is the same as
      *fear*. Anger and fearare not necessarily related, though anger could be
      part of being fearful, but not necessarily. In the example you offer, the
      case of righteous wrath, that practiced by Christ in the temple, that has
      nothing to do with fear. Anger of that Christ-like kind can, i agree, be an
      expression of love. But that anger is not about fear. So what i said for me
      still stands: replace fear with love. In the Great Book we read: "perfect
      love casts out fear."

      ((Now, fear is human, and i am not saying that i don't feel it. My ideal,
      however, is not to get stuck in it, as regards conspiracies of power or
      whatever, but to replace it with love, real love, the kind of going beyond
      sympathy and antipathy to which your post so beautifully refers, and i thank
      you.))

      Yes, i do agree that not getting stuck in antipathy for the power elite is
      important. Antipathy itself is related to hate and fear, not love. --And by
      love i don't mean false sentiment, sentimentality, but that love that is
      Christened.

      Pace e Bene,
      elaine

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    • soren groth
      First I will agree that there isn t much point in discussing Icke any further. As you I ended up finding him quite funny, some of the conspiration theories are
      Message 2 of 2 , Apr 25, 2000
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        First I will agree that there isn't much point in discussing Icke any
        further. As you I ended up finding him quite funny, some of the
        conspiration theories are so wild, that he must be kidding :-)

        At 12:25 2000-04-25 -0400, you wrote:
        >Dear soren, and all,
        >
        >Thank you, soren, for your very thoughtful reply. I do agree that
        >consciousness on our part is called for when dealing with the world leaders
        >--the few at the top--who push for globalization, but due to their own
        >selfish materialist, economic agenda. I also agree that maybe those at the
        >top are not conscious --at least not always. Yet, i think that there is a
        >possibility that some of them are conscious, in a demonic sort of way.
        >There's been a discussion here of Hitler's occultism, and i think there are
        >secret brotherhoods, and high degree masonic types and the like, who do have
        >a conscious agenda of mind manipulation and control, and they do practice
        >the evil arts. Not that they are all powerful or fully conscious, but there
        >is a degree of consciousness.

        Well I do believe there is "demonic" forces in this development, and that
        some of these leaders are aware of them, and try to use them, to be even
        more wealthy and powerful. But I don't think it has any big importance.
        These forces will be active, anyway, as they are part of the world
        development. So rather than focusing on the "evil" of the world leaders,
        and the "good" of the people, I think it is important to understand these
        demonic forces. Why it is there?? What it is doing?? and what must we
        develop to overcome it ?? The force in itself is necessary, because we need
        to develop. The evil comes from our resistance to develop, or attempts to
        use this force for "dark" purposes.
        Actually I believe there is many people in top positions who, actually
        try to conscioussly work with "love" in their position, as well as there
        are those working conscioussly with "fear/evil" ... and a lot who just are
        there because of personal greed and ambition, totally unaware of the
        spiritual aspects.
        In our time period there's a strong force towards individuality, a strong
        anti-social force, which seems very antipathic to us, as we fear to be
        alone, to be responsible. This is a big struggle in our time, a struggle we
        battle inside ourselves every day. We want to be free, but we fear the
        consequences of freedom.
        Now there's a lot of reaction to this world development, which looks
        back, that want to restaurate the good old times. As a reaction to the
        globalisation, you see many react with the wish to empower their nation.
        The Illuminati-conspiracy thing goes along this line.
        The problem is not that nations give away power to international
        structures, the problem is what these structures base their way of acting
        upon. We don't need to get rid of the UN, the World Bank, International
        Agreements on this or that. We need that these institutions and
        international agreements are run and implemented by people who work from
        the christ-impulse !!!
        We the people shall not express our will by tearing down and go back to
        seperatism. The more the anti-social force grows in our souls, the more we
        need true social structure, based on human values.

        I am sort of fascinated, how the left today is conservative, while
        capitalism is progressive, compared with the situation 100 years ago, where
        capitalism was strictly national and imperialist, while the left was
        internationalist. Now it's the left (here in Sweden anyway), together with
        far-right conservatives, who talk about "national sovereignty", wants to
        keep our national currency aso.

        >Then, you close with a question and a comment on my comment.
        >
        >I wrote about replacing fear with love when dealing with power issues,
        >conspiracy theories and mind control.
        >
        >You replied:
        >
        > >Why always replace fear with love, sometimes anger is love. Remember when
        > >Christ furiously drove the traders out of the temple.
        >
        >Perhaps we are not communicating here. I said i find it ideal to replace
        >*fear* with *love*. Then you write about *anger* as though it is the same as
        >*fear*. Anger and fearare not necessarily related, though anger could be
        >part of being fearful, but not necessarily. In the example you offer, the
        >case of righteous wrath, that practiced by Christ in the temple, that has
        >nothing to do with fear. Anger of that Christ-like kind can, i agree, be an
        >expression of love. But that anger is not about fear. So what i said for me
        >still stands: replace fear with love. In the Great Book we read: "perfect
        >love casts out fear."

        Well now we are communicating. I was a bit unclear there, I agree. It was
        a reflection that popped up, and you explain very well what I mean.
        I mean there's so much "new age" spirituality, who emphasize love,
        positivity, happiness, bliss, aso aso. And sometimes I get the feeling
        that they just want to close their eyes and dream away the problems. That
        they are too symphatetic.
        That's what I find in anthroposophy, an awake way, to face the problems
        in every aspect. A realistic and practical way.


        >((Now, fear is human, and i am not saying that i don't feel it. My ideal,
        >however, is not to get stuck in it, as regards conspiracies of power or
        >whatever, but to replace it with love, real love, the kind of going beyond
        >sympathy and antipathy to which your post so beautifully refers, and i thank
        >you.))

        Good, then we agree and are on the same wavelength


        >Yes, i do agree that not getting stuck in antipathy for the power elite is
        >important. Antipathy itself is related to hate and fear, not love. --And by
        >love i don't mean false sentiment, sentimentality, but that love that is
        >Christened.

        As I put it when being a socialist.

        "Classhate is not to love one class and hate another. It is to hate the
        existence of classes, and love humanity"


        >Pace e Bene,
        >elaine

        Sören
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