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Re: Joel, Europe&America&Threefolding

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  • elaineupton2001
    Dear Joel, ... coupled with a ... people ... thirty ... his ... without ... Joel, you are one who often writes of the importance of following clear and organic
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 3, 2003
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      Dear Joel,

      You write in reply to my post:


      >
      > I always find it curious, when I post something brief,
      coupled with a
      > reference to the larger and more detailed work, how it is that
      people
      > feel like they can easily set the matter aside without striving to
      > encounter the original work.
      >
      > All I gave of Morey's work was a couple of lines of something
      thirty
      > pages long, and which included references to how he had arrived at
      his
      > conclusions, what Native Peoples he had met and so forth. Yet,
      without
      > batting an eye you dismissed the conclusions of this work.


      Joel, you are one who often writes of the importance of following
      clear and organic thinking processes. I find what you write above is
      not an example of a clear and organic living thinking process.

      You also often write of people's views being colored by sympathies
      and antipathies. Perhaps you teach, like many of us, what is
      important for you to learn.

      You also say that it might have occured to me I could make a deeper
      examination of the problem I might "rather than think [I} could
      immediately form a judgement and arrive at the truth."

      This is an example of how in my view you do not think or read
      clearly, for nowhere in my posts on this thread will you find
      evidence of my having felt I have arrived at the truth.

      It is not "without batting an eye" that I dismiss the conclusions of
      Moreley's work, yet I wonder if--IF--without batting an eye, you
      dismiss so much of what I said to you in this last and other posts
      because, in fact, while you say many things that are important, in my
      view, and often say them clearly and forcefully, in my view, there is
      much in *the heart* and core of my recent posts that you in your
      recent replies ignore or do not address.

      Do you enjoy the position of being the teacher, the lecturerer, and
      having, as you once called them, "fans"? Neither you nor Mr. Moreley
      (so far) stand as experts to me on the subject of the "soul of Native
      America". I do not dismiss what you say or what he says, but rather
      raise doubts, clearly stated in my posts. Also, I find riches in what
      you say (and often tell you so), but also I find things to question
      and cast doubt upon. I am not a "fan." I respect you more than to be
      a "fan", and I will not accept what you or Mr. Moreley say without
      question if the question arises, and if disagreement arises, I will
      say so. This does not mean I think I have arrived at some final
      truth. So, maybe you might read clearly and practice what you preach
      about clear thinking and moving beyond antipathies and sympathies, if
      that is needed.

      I realize that there is much more you say in your letter, but your
      opening paragraphs are ones I have attempted to address because they
      permeate the rest of your post.

      Thank you for your offerings, ones that always are helpful to me, one
      way or another, very helpful.

      Blessings,
      elaine
    • elaineupton2001
      Dear Joel, The second two-thirds or so (smile) of your post where you ask many questions of soul qualities of races and groups, of how anthroposophists
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 3, 2003
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        Dear Joel,

        The second two-thirds or so (smile) of your post where you ask many
        questions of "soul" qualities of races and groups, of how
        anthroposophists address these, and so on are questions important to
        me, as to you. Here and there in your questioning you take on what
        for me is, as I already implied in my last post, a lecturing tone and
        suggest that I might study more, without even knowing anything about
        what I have studied or where I might be coming from. There is a
        certain presumptuousness, in my view.

        In any case, the questions themselves are important to me, and I have
        been pursuing many of them for most of my life.

        Blessings,
        elaine
      • Joel Wendt
        Dear Elaine, Sorry for the tone. I rather have some passion about this then not, and don t expect perfection of myself or you (although I do expect it of
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 3, 2003
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          Dear Elaine,

          Sorry for the tone. I rather have some passion about this then not,
          and don't expect perfection of myself or you (although I do expect it of
          Starman and lightwhatever.)

          If I was presumptuous of your search and work, again I am sorry. We
          don't really know much about each other through this medium, do we.

          warm regards,
          joel

          On Tue, 2003-06-03 at 18:08, elaineupton2001 wrote:
          > Dear Joel,
          >
          > The second two-thirds or so (smile) of your post where you ask many
          > questions of "soul" qualities of races and groups, of how
          > anthroposophists address these, and so on are questions important to
          > me, as to you. Here and there in your questioning you take on what
          > for me is, as I already implied in my last post, a lecturing tone and
          > suggest that I might study more, without even knowing anything about
          > what I have studied or where I might be coming from. There is a
          > certain presumptuousness, in my view.
          >
          > In any case, the questions themselves are important to me, and I have
          > been pursuing many of them for most of my life.
          >
          > Blessings,
          > elaine
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy
          > Unsubscribe:
          > anthroposophy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > List owner: anthroposophy-owner@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • elaineupton2001
          Dear Joel, Thanks for writing again. I agree that we do not really know each other, and this medium provides its own challenges in that regard, for sure!
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 4, 2003
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            Dear Joel,

            Thanks for writing again. I agree that we do not really know each
            other, and this medium provides its own challenges in that regard,
            for sure!

            ((Yes, I, too, expect perfection, not from myself, of course, but
            from those stellar beings--Lightsearcher and Starman----smile))

            We share the passion for the subject of Native America and other
            groups and how the souls of peoples express wisdom and can address
            concerns of anthroposophy and Threefolding. Thank you.

            A few weeks ago I was in Hopi Land (mainly in Second Mesa, but also
            in Keams Canyon), which is about 1/2 days drive from here. Being
            there, also after being in Navajo and Apache country and what I call
            Georgia O'Keeffe country, was so meaningful to me, and I do not yet
            even know how to express all of that in conventional prose. ((I did
            write a short story, which has been sent, in a collection of stories
            I wrote on the character of places, to a publisher.)) I am a writer
            of poetry and of stories, and perhaps I express myself better in the
            medium of what is called poetry and "literary fiction"
            (although "fiction" is a misleading term, I feel).

            It seems I do express myself poorly sometimes on this list, and I do
            want you to know that I was not dismissing Mr. Moreley (but
            attempting to question something), and also a hard copy of his work
            is likely to soon be in my possession (smile).

            By the way, on the subject of anthroposophy in relation to Native
            America, African-Americans, Africans,the geography of America and
            more, our former listmate, Stephen Clarke, who also has a passion for
            these threads, and who lives near me here in Santa Fe, has sent an
            announcement of an upcoming August event outside Detroit, an
            annoucement you may already have, but if not, here is the gist of it
            (as I understand it). --Well, on second thought: others on this list
            also may also be interested, so maybe I'd better send it under a
            separate subject heading in case some are not reading this.

            Blessings,
            elaine
          • Joel Wendt
            Dear Elaine, Fortune willing, I should by around the first week or so of August, finally be permanently out there in the Southwest with you and Stephen and
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 5, 2003
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              Dear Elaine,

              Fortune willing, I should by around the first week or so of August,
              finally be permanently out there in the Southwest with you and Stephen
              and others, as I am moving to Prescott Arizona to live near my youngest
              (she of 15, with nose ring, going on 35).

              My last visit to Hopi Land, that providence allowed, was over Easter
              weekend of 1985, and except for the horrible heat of the summers, I very
              much look forward to returning to this quite remarkable area of not only
              the Americas, but the Planet as well.

              I know of the conference, but I am glad you have told the list. I
              would like to go, but all the aspects of my move are up in the air, and
              I can't yet make any concrete plans.

              warm regards,
              joel

              On Wed, 2003-06-04 at 18:08, elaineupton2001 wrote:
              > Dear Joel,
              >
              > Thanks for writing again. I agree that we do not really know each
              > other, and this medium provides its own challenges in that regard,
              > for sure!
              >
              > ((Yes, I, too, expect perfection, not from myself, of course, but
              > from those stellar beings--Lightsearcher and Starman----smile))
              >
              > We share the passion for the subject of Native America and other
              > groups and how the souls of peoples express wisdom and can address
              > concerns of anthroposophy and Threefolding. Thank you.
              >
              > A few weeks ago I was in Hopi Land (mainly in Second Mesa, but also
              > in Keams Canyon), which is about 1/2 days drive from here. Being
              > there, also after being in Navajo and Apache country and what I call
              > Georgia O'Keeffe country, was so meaningful to me, and I do not yet
              > even know how to express all of that in conventional prose. ((I did
              > write a short story, which has been sent, in a collection of stories
              > I wrote on the character of places, to a publisher.)) I am a writer
              > of poetry and of stories, and perhaps I express myself better in the
              > medium of what is called poetry and "literary fiction"
              > (although "fiction" is a misleading term, I feel).
              >
              > It seems I do express myself poorly sometimes on this list, and I do
              > want you to know that I was not dismissing Mr. Moreley (but
              > attempting to question something), and also a hard copy of his work
              > is likely to soon be in my possession (smile).
              >
              > By the way, on the subject of anthroposophy in relation to Native
              > America, African-Americans, Africans,the geography of America and
              > more, our former listmate, Stephen Clarke, who also has a passion for
              > these threads, and who lives near me here in Santa Fe, has sent an
              > announcement of an upcoming August event outside Detroit, an
              > annoucement you may already have, but if not, here is the gist of it
              > (as I understand it). --Well, on second thought: others on this list
              > also may also be interested, so maybe I'd better send it under a
              > separate subject heading in case some are not reading this.
              >
              > Blessings,
              > elaine
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy
              > Unsubscribe:
              > anthroposophy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > List owner: anthroposophy-owner@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • elaineupton2001
              Wow-wee! Wonderful that you are returning west, now Southwest, dear Joel! Maybe we (you, Stephen, Martha Keltiz, who else?--) can stir up this red dirt here
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 5, 2003
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                Wow-wee! Wonderful that you are returning west, now Southwest, dear
                Joel! Maybe we (you, Stephen, Martha Keltiz, who else?--) can stir up
                this red dirt here and ride (or walk, or fly?) right up on top of one
                of these mesas and look out over this great land and join the Natives
                in a real Pow-Wow and sit with them in circle and talk about how the
                various spiritual streams meet in this great land!--That could be a
                continuation, possibly, of whatever happens at the Detroit event
                ("Journey into the Heart of the New America") in August.

                Far-fetched? (smile)

                Blessings,
                elaine
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