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Why, indeed?

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  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
    ... ********At some point, lightsearcher! ;- But it s becoming increasingly irrelevant what they think, as they continue to paint themselves into a corner,
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 3, 2003
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      Weimar Whiners
      by James Traub
      Fascist states arise not simply because a mesmerizing leader
      seizes state power in unsettled times but because the democratic
      institutions that might oppose him have rotted away, as they did in
      Weimar Germany.
      Has that really happened here?
      (snip...)
      Much of the left seems to feel that the greatest threat to emerge from 9/11 is
      an untrammeled Bush administration -- as if the destruction of the twin towers was the functional equivalent of the Reichstag fire, as I have heard one of my friends say.
      And yet even the most devout civil libertarians recognize that the terrorist threat compels rethinking.
      Norman Siegel, the former head of the New York Civil Liberties Union and a famous First Amendment purist, says, ''The security interests are real, they're legitimate and you have to balance freedom and security in a different way post-9/11.''
      Siegel says that he has been hard put to explain to skeptical audiences that the Patriot Act, for all its problems, does not preclude traditional forms of peaceful protest.
      Why, then, the hysteria?
      I have several explanations.
      First of all, you cannot miss the element of wish-fulfillment in these prophecies of doom.
      Those of Bush's critics who loathe him as an overprivileged lout and corporate cats' paw regard the new moral and political stature he has gained as a result of the war on terror as an intolerable twist of fate; and so the terrible events they predict will prove the ultimate unmasking.
      We will see ''Bush as Fuhrer,'' to cite one recent Internet posting. But we will also, of course, see America as Germany, a society so ''demobilized''that it will stay glued to reality TV as Karl Rove cancels the presidential elections.
      It is this contemptuous dismissal, I realize, that makes my blood boil every time I hear the 1933 analogy.
      When will the left learn that this is not simply a nation of dimwitted yahoos?

      http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/01/magazine/01WWLN.html?pagewanted=
      print&position=

      ********At some point, lightsearcher! ;->
           But it's becoming increasingly irrelevant what they think, as they continue to paint themselves into a corner, demanding political correctness and ideological purity of the kind that has lost the White House for the Democratic Party in all but 3 of the US elections since 1968.
         There are legitimate questions that can be raised about the current Clash of Civilizations and the War Against Islam, but they will not be taken seriously when raised by rabidly anti-American, anti-Western, anti-capitalist demagogues ---when 70% of the American people support Bush and his conduct of the war.  They are reduced to talking to each other, viz., the prolix and incomprehensible posts here.
         An entirely new geopolitical situation has arisen since 2001 that requires fresh thinking for fresh realities. Old forms of thinking are utterly incapable of grasping it, whether it be the Cold War forms from 1945-2000 or the even older ones of Marxism/class warfare, as with the fellow here who said that the mass murders of Westerners by Islamic fanatics was just caused by workers not being paid enough.
          When Al Qaeda next succeeds in bombing NYC or Tel Aviv, leftists with their arguments will shrink to the point of total irrelevancy. The survival and security of a nation comes first. Many Communists were just thrown in jail in WWI for their treasonous words and actions. It's entirely possible again.
      -Starman
      http://www.DrStarman.net
    • holderlin66
      ... possible again. ... Bradford comments; There is a trick to connecting this link. http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:b6GR34FYQhcJ:www.w- (you must click
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 3, 2003
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        --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
        >
        > > WWI for their treasonous words and actions. It's entirely
        possible again.
        > -Starman
        > http://www.DrStarman.net

        Bradford comments;

        There is a trick to connecting this link.

        http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:b6GR34FYQhcJ:www.w-

        (you must click again and tag the connection onto the link. It
        locates the article, but you have to put the one indicated below,
        right behind the one above.)

        reich.de/hdobant.pdf+Rudolf+Steiner%27s+birthday+feb+27&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

        Bradford continues;

        One wonders what Starman means by such a statement, as "treasonous
        words and actions. It's entirely possible again." I hope it is not
        wishful thinking. How to understand the venom of the Ahrimanic
        Deception brings us into consideration of not only Weimar but how we
        understand the vision of Selective Intelligence. Selective
        Intelligence is certainly something Spiritual Science or Washington
        and the White House can be accused of. So how, just how, in the
        complexities of the human I AM do you come through the snares of
        Selective Intelligence and achieve balance? Please read the poison
        and the sexual implications involved with those who attempt research
        on the basis of Spiritual Science - to the above indicated link.

        ANTHROPOSOPHY IN THE TIME OF NAZI GERMANY

        By Uwe Werner

        Head Archivist, Archiv Am Goeheanum Dornach, Switzerland
        Author of "Anthroposophy in the Time of Nazi Germany", Verlag R.
        Oldenberg, Munich, 1999.

        Recent accusations of "racist" and "Nazi" undertones of anthroposophy
        and
        Waldorf Schools betray a curious case of history contradicting
        itself. To
        the Nazis themselves, Anthroposophists were persecuted as guilty of
        the
        opposite charges: "individualistic", "internationally oriented", and
        "pacifistic", they were accused of maintaining close ties to Jews.
        Their
        humanistic philosophy, contradictory to the ideas of race and "Volk"
        upheld by the Nazis, was determined to be "directly opposed to
        National
        Socialism".

        The following is a short excerpt from Uwe Werner's recent book
        "Anthroposophen in der Zeit des Nationalsozialismus" (Verlag R.
        Oldenberg,
        Munchen, 1999) ["Anthroposophy in the Time of Nazi Germany",
        published by
        Verlag R. Oldenberg, Munich, 1999], which sketches the historical
        circumstances of the anthroposophical movement in the time of Nazi
        Germany.

        Anthroposophists belonged to the many groups of people who were
        persecuted
        under the Nazi regime. Hitler's own disdaining remarks regarding
        Rudolf
        Steiner and the Anthroposophists appeared as early as 1921.(1) By
        spring
        of 1933, articles criticizing the movement began appearing more
        frequently
        in National Socialist newspapers. By the summer of that year,
        Steiner's
        books were banned from public libraries in Bavaria, and study groups
        and
        branches of the General Anthroposophical Society, along with other
        cultural organizations, were ordered to submit to National
        Socialistic
        leadership.

        During the years leading up to the 1935 prohibition of the German
        Anthroposophical Society and the closing of Waldorf Schools in the
        years
        thereafter, the society Executive Council was faced with the question
        of
        whether to submit to pressure to dissolve the Society of their own
        accord,
        or whether to attempt to preserve the Society and to continue working
        as
        long as and as effectively as possible. Choosing the second of these
        two
        paths made it necessary for them to make compromises in order to be
        tolerated by those in power. It is for this reason that, despite the
        fact
        that the main Executive Council had unanimously renounced the
        National
        Socialist cause at an internal meeting at Easter 1933, there was
        never a
        public rejection of National Socialism on the part of the General
        Anthroposophical Society.

        Like the General Anthroposophical Society, institutions based on
        anthroposophy (such as Waldorf Schools, schools for the handicapped,
        hospitals, schools of Eurythmy, etc.), for the most part adopted a
        strategy of peaceful and passive resistance. Waldorf schools
        experienced
        serious financial strains and were forced to let go of Jewish
        teachers,
        but the remaining teachers could continue to create their own lesson
        plans. In homes for the handicapped, children could be cared for. It
        was
        still possible to publish and to have access to the work of Rudolf
        Steiner. In a manner of working not unlike that carried out by
        Anthroposophists today in regions with human rights violations,
        efforts
        were aimed to uphold human dignity wherever possible.

        Though the decision had been reached by July 1935, it was not until
        November 1, 1935 that, through the efforts of Nazi leaders Heinrich
        Himmler and Reinhard Heydrich, the Anthroposophical Society was
        prohibited
        in Germany. The grounds for its prohibition read as follows:

        "According to its historical development, the Anthroposophical
        Society is
        internationally oriented and even today continues to maintain close
        contacts with foreign freemasons, Jews and pacifists. The methods of
        teaching developed by its founder, Steiner, and followed in the
        anthroposophical schools still existing today follow an
        individualistic
        and human-oriented education, which has nothing in common with
        principles
        of National Socialistic education. As a result of this opposition to
        the
        National Socialistic idea of Volk (Voelkische Gedanke), the continued
        activity of the Anthroposophical Society imposes the danger of
        injuring
        the National Socialistic State. The organization is therefore to be
        dissolved on account of its subversive character and the danger it
        poses
        to the public."(2)
        The accusations had been carefully researched. Himmler ordered
        numerous
        investigative reports that serve to document the stand of the Nazis
        toward
        anthroposophy. Fifteen in-depth reports, as well as countless
        individual
        accounts, all come to the same conclusion: that anthroposophy is
        irreconcilable with the aims and the ideologies of National
        Socialism.

        "To briefly summarize my judgement," wrote Jakob Wilhelm Hauer,
        Professor
        of Religion at the University of Tuebingen and member of the Secret
        Service of the S.S.,

        "every undertaking and activity of anthroposophy necessarily arises
        out of
        the Anthroposophical world view. The anthroposophical world view is
        in the
        most important points directly opposed to National Socialism.
        Therefore,
        schools which are built out of the anthroposophical world view and
        led by
        anthroposophists mean danger to true German education."(3)
        Perhaps the most persuasive adherent of National Socialism to
        formulate
        the incompatibility of anthroposophy and National Socialism was
        Alfred
        Bauemler, a distinguished philosopher and professor of education in
        Berlin. As part of his work within the Rosenburg Office "for the
        control
        of the intellectual life of the National Socalist Party", he was
        commissioned to conduct an in-depth investigation of the work of
        Rudolf
        Steiner. Unlike hasty and unstudied police reports,
        Bauemler's "Report on
        the Waldorf Schools" and "Report on Rudolf Steiner and Philosophy"
        are
        noteworthy attempts to understand the thoughts underlying
        anthroposophy:
        Baeumler's hope was to find means to adopt aspects of Waldorf
        pedagogy
        into National Socialist education. He concluded, however, that the
        principles underlying anthroposophy contradict the aims of the
        National
        Socialistic State.

        "The fateful distinction", he wrote, "occurs through the fact that
        Steiner
        replaces the theory of heredity with a different, positive theory.
        Steiner
        does not simply overlook the biological reality, but rather
        consciously
        converts it to its opposite. Anthroposophy is one of the most
        consequent
        antibiological systems." In that race and Volk are discounted in
        ahroposophy as the essential determining factor of individual
        capacity,
        Bauemler realizes that the objectives in Waldorf education, according
        to
        Steiner's principles, "can only be humanistic, and not based on race
        or
        ethnic group."(4)

        In March 1936, Waldorf Schools were prohibited from taking on new
        students; by summer of 1941, all Waldorf Schools in Germany had been
        forced to close their doors. On June 1941, shortly before the attack
        on
        Russia, the Gestapo staged an action against the "inside opponents"
        of the
        Nazis. The Christian Community was prohibited from continued
        activity,
        prominent Anthroposophists and members of the Christian Community
        were
        arrested, interrogated and imprisoned or sent to concentration camps.
        The
        following fall, the Department of Security of the Reich published a
        50
        page brochure entitled Anthroposophy and its Associated
        Institutions". The
        report's concluding statement read:

        "If one is to accept the totality of thinking embraced in a world-
        view and
        recognize its impact on the entire opinions and bearing of the
        people,
        then there can be no doubt that followers of Anthroposophy must
        necessarily become opponents of National Socialism."(5)


        Notes

        1. Adolf Hitler writes about Rudolf Steiner and Social Three-folding,
        1921

        "In the course of the London affair, there gradually emerged such
        mysterious circumstances that it has become not only expedient but
        indeed
        necessary to look somewhat more closely at this Minister (Simons),
        the
        intimate friend of the Gnostic and Anthroposophist Rudolf Steiner,
        follower of Three-folding the Social Organism and whatever all these
        Jewish methods of destroying the normal frame of mind of the people
        are
        called: to see whether that mindless face, as Lloyd George described
        it,
        is really just the result of a deficient intellect, or if it is the
        mask
        behind which something else is concealed . . . (he continues with a
        protest against Simon's political activity, and particularly the
        movement
        to disarm the German people) . . . And who is the driving force
        behind all
        this devilishness? The Jew! Friend of Doctor Rudolf Steiner, the
        friend of
        Simons, the 'mindless' . . ."
        Adolf Hitler, Staatsmaenner ode Nationalverbrecher ("Men of the State
        or
        National Criminals"), in Voelkischer Beobachter, 35.Jg., 15 March
        1921,
        S.2. (original German text)

        2. Prohibition of the Anthroposophical Society in Germany, November
        1, 1935

        "Prussian Secret Police, Berlin, November 1, 1935. The deputy chief
        (stell. Chef) and Inspector II 1 B 2 69121/766 L/35.

        Regarding: the Anthroposophical Society

        In accordance with paragraph 1 of the decree of 2.28.1933 for the
        Protection of People and State, issued by the President of the Reich,
        I
        hereby dissolve the Anthroposophical Society within the territory of
        the
        German Reich, effective immediately. The organization's properties
        are to
        be confiscated. The re-establishment of the Society, as well as the
        creation of undercover successor organizations, is forbidden under
        threat
        of the penalties described in paragraph 4 of the above named decree.

        Grounds: According to its historical development, the
        Anthroposophical
        Society is internationally oriented and even today continues to
        maintain
        close contacts to foreign freemasons, Jews and pacifists. The method
        of
        teaching developed by its founder, Steiner, and followed in the
        anthroposophical schools still existing today follow an
        individualistic
        and human-oriented education, which has nothing in common with the
        principles of national socialistic education. As a result of its
        opposition to the National Socialistic idea of Volk (Voelkische
        Gedanke),
        the continued activity of the Anthroposophical Society imposes the
        danger
        of injuring the National Socialistic state.

        The organization is therefore to be dissolved on account of its
        subversive
        character and the danger it poses to the public.

        sig. in absentia, Heydrich"
        BAK (German Federal Archives) R43 II/822 (original German text)

        3. Dr. J.W. Hauer on Waldorf Schools

        "[. . .] To briefly summarize my judgement: Every undertaking and
        activity
        of anthroposophy necessarily arises out of the anthroposophical world
        view. The anthroposophical world view is in its most important points
        directly opposed to national socialism. Therefore, schools which are
        built
        out of the anthroposophical world view and led by anthroposophists
        mean
        danger to true German education, particularly through the relation of
        the
        anthroposophical communities to Dornach, the international center of
        anthroposophy, in which Jews also play an important role, or at any
        rate
        have played until the present. A survey of the teachers and leaders
        of the
        individual Waldorf Schools in Germany before the [Nazi] takeover
        indicates
        clearly that the Jewish impact was important in the German
        anthroposophical communities and schools."
        Prof. Dr. J.W. Hauer, in an internal report for the Secret Service on
        February 7, 1935. BAPR 4901-3285 (original German text)

        4. From "Report on Waldorf Schools" and "Report on Rudolf Steiner and
        Philosophy" by Alfred Bauemler

        "The understanding of man (Menschenkunde) which underlies Waldorf
        education contain deep and correct insights, with R.Steiner derived
        mostly
        from his exceedingly fruitful study of Goethe's writings on natural
        science. The National Socialistic understanding of man can only be
        derived
        from race. To the extent to which race is a reality of nature, it
        could
        appear that already in the point of departure there lay an essential
        correlation between Rudolf Steiner's understanding of man, and that
        of
        National Socialism: Steiner departs from the formative forces of
        Nature
        and bases school-education on the development of natural forces. One
        might
        thereby call his education "biologically" founded.

        However, if one were to attempt to introduce the concept of race as
        we
        understand it into this biological foundation, it would explode
        Steiner's
        understanding of man. This is because National Socialism departs from
        the
        reality of blood, and from differences that exist between groups of
        people
        of differing blood. We grasp these differences not only
        biologically/anthropologically, but primarily historically, in that
        we
        turn our attention to those things which people of varying blood-
        heritage
        have produced and developed: the cities, works of art, inventions,
        scientific systems, etc. Rudolf Steiner's understanding of man has no
        access to this historical thinking derived from knowledge of the
        reality
        of race. The position occupied in our world view by the man
        determined by
        the forces of race is occupied in the world view of Rudolf Steiner by
        the
        Spirit of Man, sovereign over all history. The thought of Rudolf
        Steiner
        is not biological-racist, but biological-cosmic."
        Alfred Bauemler, Report on Waldorf Schools, 1937, in: Achim
        Leschinsky,
        "Waldorf Schools in National Socialism", Neue Sammlung, May/June
        1983, p.
        280 (original German text)

        "Steiner is not only an epigone of idealistic philosophy, but he
        builds
        upon the philosophy of the intellect (spirit) in a decided manner.
        The
        fateful turning point occurs through the fact that Steiner replaces
        the
        theory of heredity with a different, positive theory. He does not
        simply
        overlook the biological reality, but rather consciously converts it
        to its
        opposite. Anthroposophy is one of the most consequent antibiological
        systems in existence." (p.401)

        "Objectives of pedagogical activity: According to the basic
        assumptions of
        anthroposophy, these objectives can only be humanistic, and not based
        on
        race or ethnic groups."(p.403)
        Alfred Bauemler, Report on Rudolf Steiner Philosophy, 1938, in: Uwe
        Werner, Anthroposophen in der Zeit der Nationalsozialismus 1933-1945,
        Muenchen, 1999, p. 401,403. (original German text)


        5. "Anthroposophy and its Associated Institutions"

        "Die Anthroposophie und ihre Zweckverbaende. Bericht unter Verwendung
        von
        Ergebnissen der Aktion gegen Geheimlehren und sogenannte
        Geheimwissenschaften vom 5.Juni 1941." RSHA ca. Oktober 1941.
        ("Anthroposophy and its Associated Institutions. Report applying
        evidence
        from the Operation against Secret Teachings and so-called Esoteric
        Sciences of June 5, 1941." RSHA, ca. October 1941.)
        From Phar-Lap (grandnational@...)
      • Lee Peters
        I am surprised as these posts. Somehow I thought spiritual work in this path was honed by objectivity, minimal bias in personal opinions (especially about
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 5, 2003
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          I am surprised as these posts. Somehow I thought spiritual work in this path was honed by objectivity, minimal bias in personal opinions (especially about political matters), and the training of the mind to see details and shades of gray rather than labeling people and groups into "leftists", "liberals", conservatives, free thinkers, etc. The fact is there are many of the third party and fourth party who share common values found in both conservative and liberal camps. How does on label the independent for example. Labels are just that. Maybe some should stick to issues and reason and spiritual insight rather that making assumptions about the course of the world based on opposing agendas. Dealing with reality as it is is usually the best course rather than shaping it to our own persuasion.
           
          Lee

          DRStarman2001@... wrote:


          Weimar Whiners
          by James Traub
          Fascist states arise not simply because a mesmerizing leader
          seizes state power in unsettled times but because the democratic
          institutions that might oppose him have rotted away, as they did in
          Weimar Germany.
          Has that really happened here?
          (snip...)
          Much of the left seems to feel that the greatest threat to emerge from 9/11 is
          an untrammeled Bush administration -- as if the destruction of the twin towers was the functional equivalent of the Reichstag fire, as I have heard one of my friends say.
          And yet even the most devout civil libertarians recognize that the terrorist threat compels rethinking.
          Norman Siegel, the former head of the New York Civil Liberties Union and a famous First Amendment purist, says, ''The security interests are real, they're legitimate and you have to balance freedom and security in a different way post-9/11.''
          Siegel says that he has been hard put to explain to skeptical audiences that the Patriot Act, for all its problems, does not preclude traditional forms of peaceful protest.
          Why, then, the hysteria?
          I have several explanations.
          First of all, you cannot miss the element of wish-fulfillment in these prophecies of doom.
          Those of Bush's critics who loathe him as an overprivileged lout and corporate cats' paw regard the new moral and political stature he has gained as a result of the war on terror as an intolerable twist of fate; and so the terrible events they predict will prove the ultimate unmasking.
          We will see ''Bush as Fuhrer,'' to cite one recent Internet posting. But we will also, of course, see America as Germany, a society so ''demobilized''that it will stay glued to reality TV as Karl Rove cancels the presidential elections.
          It is this contemptuous dismissal, I realize, that makes my blood boil every time I hear the 1933 analogy.
          When will the left learn that this is not simply a nation of dimwitted yahoos?

          http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/01/magazine/01WWLN.html?pagewanted=
          print&position=

          ********At some point, lightsearcher! ;->
               But it's becoming increasingly irrelevant what they think, as they continue to paint themselves into a corner, demanding political correctness and ideological purity of the kind that has lost the White House for the Democratic Party in all but 3 of the US elections since 1968.
             There are legitimate questions that can be raised about the current Clash of Civilizations and the War Against Islam, but they will not be taken seriously when raised by rabidly anti-American, anti-Western, anti-capitalist demagogues ---when 70% of the American people support Bush and his conduct of the war.  They are reduced to talking to each other, viz., the prolix and incomprehensible posts here.
             An entirely new geopolitical situation has arisen since 2001 that requires fresh thinking for fresh realities. Old forms of thinking are utterly incapable of grasping it, whether it be the Cold War forms from 1945-2000 or the even older ones of Marxism/class warfare, as with the fellow here who said that the mass murders of Westerners by Islamic fanatics was just caused by workers not being paid enough.
              When Al Qaeda next succeeds in bombing NYC or Tel Aviv, leftists with their arguments will shrink to the point of total irrelevancy. The survival and security of a nation comes first. Many Communists were just thrown in jail in WWI for their treasonous words and actions. It's entirely possible again.
          -Starman
          http://www.DrStarman.net

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        • S. Groth
          ... Hey would love to see a quote from this fellow claiming exactly this simplified view - :-) Radical left views date back much further than Karl Marx...
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 7, 2003
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            --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
            > Old forms of thinking are
            >utterly
            > incapable of grasping it, whether it be the Cold War forms from
            >1945-2000 or the even
            > older ones of Marxism/class warfare, as with the fellow here who
            >said that
            > the mass murders of Westerners by Islamic fanatics was just caused
            >by workers
            > not being paid enough.

            Hey would love to see a quote from this fellow claiming exactly this
            simplified view - :-)
            Radical "left" views date back much further than Karl Marx...
            Spiritual community withouth manifestation is pure speculation
            Outer form community (like statecapitalist communism - political
            communism) withouth a spiritual foundation is pure slavery
            The more who stop thinking the future is impossible covering their
            own incapacity

            A bit of history:

            Forerunners to anabaptism by Eberhard Arnold
            (http://www.bruderhof.com)
            If we wish to grasp the significance of the early Anabaptist
            movement of Reformation times, we must first
            realize that it was not a new movement that had never
            previously existed.

            When I visited Bertha W. Clark in Chicago, her first
            significant question to me was, "Where did this tiny
            flickering flame of the Anabaptist movement come from that
            appeared in so many places in Switzerland and
            Tirol? What was its source?" This question is usually
            answered, "All these tiny flames came from the great fire
            lit by the rediscovery of the Bible in German-speaking
            lands." Doubtless this is true to a large extent. And yet
            it cannot be accurate; for the Bible, especially the
            Gospels, had been much published as early as the fifteenth
            century, not only in Latin but in German as well.

            With the Bible question we come straightaway upon the
            Waldenses and all the other similar movements. It
            was Ludwig Keller, Director of Archives in Basel, who first
            advanced the thesis that the Anabaptists had
            their roots in movements that form an unbroken chain with
            evangelical movements going back to the very
            earliest time of Christianity. This thesis may be open to
            challenge, but one cannot simply disregard Keller's
            book of 1885 on the Reformation. In the years around 1885
            the way opened to an understanding of
            Anabaptist history. During that time Josef Beck (1815-1887)
            and Johann Loserth (1846-1936) were
            drawing Anabaptist history more and more into the light.
            This was also the time when Emil Egli, a minister
            and licentiate of theology from Zurich, published his
            collection of documents of the Zurich Reformation
            (Aktensammlung zur Geschichte der Züricher Reformation in
            den Jahren 1519-1533), his work about the
            Zurich Anabaptists at the time of the Reformation (Die
            Züricher Wiedertäufer zur Reformationszeit), and his
            booklet on the history of the St. Gall Anabaptists (Die St.
            Galler Täufer). At this time, too, Carl Adolf
            Cornelius (1819-1903) verified the origins of the Münster
            movement. All these writers, together with several
            other leading church historians, demonstrated that up to
            that time the Anabaptist movement had not been
            done justice, owing to the prejudices of the official
            church. It is of historical significance that the Didache or
            "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles" and a wealth of Gospel
            texts were newly discovered at that time too. In
            addition, it was the era of new revival movements in
            connection with Oxford, which spread over England,
            Germany, and North America.

            Considering all this, it seems that God in his world
            government, through the interplay of hidden threads,
            intervenes in the spiritual world among men at very specific
            times and in very specific ways.

            Keller well knew the objection that could be raised, namely,
            that the connection from the Anabaptists to
            earliest Christianity by an unbroken line of succession
            could not be proved. He said, "Here we are
            confronted with the same situation that until now has given
            us a false conception of the Anabaptists of
            Reformation times." Previous historians confined themselves
            to names and dates that were of prime
            significance for the high policy of the state or the
            official churches. What was moving quietly below the
            surface, what influenced men's hearts and their way of life
            without changing the state or the state churches,
            was not recorded. That is why we find among the historians
            of Jesus' day practically nothing about the
            existence of Jesus, the Son of Mary. There are in fact only
            two passages, by Tacitus and Josephus, and even
            these are contested. No notice was taken of the movements
            based on the four Gospels except when their
            leaders collided with the state or the state churches. And
            they avoided collision since they had no desire to
            seek martyrdom for its own sake; they wanted to get on with
            their work. Certainly, they were ready at any
            time to be martyred if this was unavoidable--unavoidable in
            the sense that avoiding martyrdom would have
            betrayed the truth.

            Similarly Anabaptist history of Reformation times is found
            in the documents of state and state-church
            authorities only insofar as the movement clashed with these
            great powers. The movement must therefore have
            been much stronger than appears from these documents. The
            same is true of the old evangelical movements
            and their interconnections that stretch from the first to
            the sixteenth century.

            Keller traces the origins of the Waldensian movement back to
            the Poor of Christ, who existed long before
            the twelfth century. The year 1218 is important, but as
            early as 1150 one can discern the movement
            commonly known as the Waldenses. For example, we know that
            in 1150 the Inquisitors of Cologne reported
            that these "heretics" baptized adults, basing their faith on
            the Gospel of Mark 16:16, and that for the sake of
            this baptism "they went into death not only patiently, but
            with enthusiasm."

            Thus in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries we find
            powerful movements claiming the title "apostolic brothers."
            From this name Keller concludes that these movements were
            connected with similar trends in the fifth and
            sixth centuries, since at that time decrees were issued
            against heretics that point to exactly the same kind of
            movement. Already in those days, as well as later in 1150,
            departure from the "true rule of faith" was
            declared to be sin and heresy, a crime against the state.
            Some say that this movement, commonly known as
            the Waldensian movement but calling itself simply "Christian
            brothers," goes back as far as 315 A.D., to the
            time of Pope Sylvester.

            Here we come very close to Tertullian and the Montanists. In
            the year 1250 we learn from an Inquisitor of
            the Roman church that "they (the Waldenses) are the greatest
            danger to the church because they go back the
            farthest; one can say they have existed since the time of
            Pope Sylvester," and second, "there is hardly any
            country in which this movement is not found." Third, he
            considered the movement so dangerous because they
            spoke no blasphemies but excelled in piety. The Inquisitor
            continued:

            These heretics are to be recognized by their way of life and
            their manner of speech. Their lives are orderly
            and modest, without arrogance. Their dress is neither costly
            nor disorderly. They avoid any transaction
            involving lies and deception or swearing oaths. They seek no
            riches. They lead chaste and pure lives. They
            are moderate in eating and drinking. They never go to a
            tavern for dancing or other such wanton
            pleasures...They are industrious, teaching and learning
            much...They are recognized by their modest speech,
            which avoids any exaggeration. One never hears a useless
            word or backbiting from them. They avoid lying
            and swearing.

            And he concluded that they were all the more dangerous!

            David of Augsburg, another famous Inquisitor of the
            thirteenth century, reports, "The Poor of Lyons and the
            other brothers like them are all the more dangerous, the
            more they make a show of their piety...and appear
            humble and modest."

            Because they were persecuted so severely by the Inquisition,
            they had to keep as quiet as possible. Names
            such as Winkeler and Grubenheimer, meaning people who had
            their homes in hideouts or in the woods,
            therefore appear in the fourteenth century. At the same time
            they were called "the good," "the pure," "the
            perfect." (Strangely enough, the word "heretic" in its
            German form, Ketzer, is derived from the Greek word
            katharos, meaning "pure.") Further, they were called
            spirituales, that is, men of the Spirit, and enthusiastai.
            From all these names we are able to understand the character
            of the movement. The names attached to these
            old movements in all their shades of meaning were applied to
            the Anabaptists as well. This is true of all the
            names I have mentioned, as well as such odd names as
            magistri barbati, which means "bearded masters."
            This name was applied both to the Waldensians and the early
            Anabaptists.

            A great deal could still be said about the early history of
            the brothers. There is, however, no doubt that the
            movement around Peter Waldo (c. 1177), who is wrongly
            considered to be the founder of the Waldenses,
            was closely connected with the movement around Arnold of
            Brescia, who died in Italy in 1155. Peter Waldo
            was simply a reformer and leader of the movement, not its
            founder. The Waldenses, then, were part of the
            movement that traced its origins to the disciples and
            apostles of Jesus Christ. They were of the opinion that
            with the Emperor Constantine and Pope Sylvester in the
            fourth century (from 315 A.D. on) primitive
            Christianity had come to an end, while until that time the
            forces of primitive Christianity had still been
            struggling against those of the official church. This thesis
            is confirmed by modern scholarship, although there is
            a tendency to put the date still further back, to the time
            of Tertullian. Pope Nicholas, too, is mentioned in this
            connection.

            The Waldenses and related movements claimed that the
            authority of the apostles to bind and to loose was the
            basis of their faith and life. They appealed to the
            apostolic commission, which demanded an itinerant life of
            complete poverty to proclaim the Gospel to men. Their
            attitude to the state was one of great freedom. They
            knew they would necessarily be persecuted by the state--by
            every type of state. "Freedom and the Gospel"
            was the motto of men like Arnold of Brescia and Peter Waldo.
            By "Gospel" they meant the words of Jesus,
            especially the Sermon on the Mount, his life and the
            redemption he brought. Their freedom was based on the
            Gospel; they desired no other freedom. Therefore their
            watchword was imitatio Christi, the discipleship of
            Christ.

            It can be proved historically that Francis of Assisi and
            Thomas à Kempis (who belonged to the Catholic
            Church) were part of this movement in its broadest sense.
            Admittedly, Francis of Assisi represented the
            poverty of discipleship of Christ without the freedom of the
            Gospel; and Thomas à Kempis, discipleship
            without the freedom of the Gospel. Nevertheless they were
            within the sphere of influence of this powerful
            movement.

            Around 1177 this movement penetrated deep into Germany,
            especially to Frankfurt and Nuremberg, and
            into Bohemia. Already then we find evidence of adult
            baptism, the strictest concept of marriage, rejection of
            the established church, readiness to accept death
            enthusiastically for the sake of one's convictions.

            The brothers had their own bishop, their own elder, among
            the itinerant preachers. They claimed apostolic
            succession for themselves, stating that around 1215 their
            first period of apostolic succession led to a second
            period. That was a time when severe persecution swept over
            them. In Strasbourg alone five hundred were
            arrested in 1212, people from all walks of life. This shows
            how strong the movement must have been in
            Strasbourg at that time (which, by the way, also throws a
            remarkable light on the activity of Meister Eckhardt
            in that city). The prisoners testified that there were many
            like them in Switzerland, Italy, Germany, and
            Bohemia. At that time eighty were burned at the stake. Their
            elder or bishop, Johannes, was among those
            burned. Face to face with death, he said, "We are all
            sinners; but not because of our faith or because of the
            vices we are accused of without cause. We expect the
            forgiveness of our sins from God, without human help
            and without the mediation of a priest."

            It must be added that the name "Poor of Christ" (a name also
            given to the Franciscans, who were called
            minores or lesser ones, proletarians) proves that a link
            existed between the Waldenses and the Beguines and
            Beghards. The latter were active long before 1370 and were
            similar to the third order of St. Francis. The
            Beguines as sisters and the Beghards as brothers kept
            communal households, practicing community of goods.
            They cared in particular for the poor and the weak, for
            people who were physically or mentally handicapped.
            For themselves they also chose poverty and a life without
            possessions. They demanded utmost simplicity of
            dress, refusing to conform to fashion. Therefore their dress
            developed a certain uniformity, though it did not
            really become a monastic garb. Because they cared for the
            homeless, the poor, the weak, and the sick, they
            were forerunners of the deaconesses. They also worked in the
            field of education, bringing to mind the rural
            boarding schools of twentieth-century Germany. They worked
            communally.

            As early as 1230 we read of congregations where the poor
            lived together and worked for the poor. Their
            opponents spoke ironically of their places as "poorhouses"
            and "workhouses" --a mockery that could apply
            to the present-day Bruderhofs as well. They themselves,
            however, called their communal settlements "houses
            of God." They tackled the social problem just as seriously
            as the religious one. They solved it by having their
            goods in common and by working in community. And while
            tackling the religious-social problem, they came
            to grips with the educational problem as well and solved it
            by establishing special schools and centers of
            education. As a result people gave them the nickname "the
            young folks' good people" or "the good boys."
            They called themselves "apostles," a name that was current
            since before the time of Peter Waldo, who was
            active in southern France around 1177. In 1306 the
            Archbishop of Cologne said that these people had been
            called "Beguines, Beghards, and apostles" since old times.
            They were also called "friends of God," especially
            in the Rhine district; also "apostolic brothers," "bearded
            men," and "witnesses." The movement was a large
            one indeed.

            These movements confessed to the inspiration of Christ's
            Spirit. They believed that the Bible was inspired,
            especially the Gospels, and so were the apostles. They
            confessed particularly to the words of Jesus, to his
            commands and his commissions. They believed that Christ was
            with them according to his promise, "Lo, I am
            with you always, unto the end of the world." They believed
            that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, entered
            into the hearts of those who were dedicated to Christ. Thus
            they believed that the same Spirit was at work in
            the Gospels and in the words of the apostles. They attached
            special importance to the words of Christ,
            considering them evangelical commandments; the Roman
            Catholic Church calls the same words the
            "evangelical counsels."

            Christ's whole life was an example to them. They wanted to
            follow him, to go the same way he had gone.
            Therefore they followed the evangelical commandment or
            counsel to deny oneself and follow Jesus and often
            called themselves "followers of Christ." Their lives were to
            be no different from the life Jesus himself had
            lived, in both its inner nature and its outward form. They
            believed in the Spirit of truth. They believed that this
            Spirit is imparted to all Christ's disciples. The Spirit
            brings healing and strengthening of the will, which means
            freedom of will. The Spirit makes the inward eye sharp to
            distinguish good from evil, the Christlike from the
            antichristlike. The Spirit of truth illumines the heart
            through deep inner revelation. He writes the Word of God
            into heart and conscience. Jesus' redemption and the
            discipleship of Christ become reality in the heart through
            Christ's Spirit.

            To the apostolic brothers the inner light is the seed, the
            grain of salt, of Christ's power. The inner light
            constantly reminds us of all that Jesus said, especially his
            Sermon on the Mount. To these brothers the
            Sermon on the Mount is the evangelion katexochen--the Gospel
            at its sharpest and most definite, and in its
            clearest and broadest form. As a result, the brothers always
            stressed, "Deal with others as you would have
            them deal with you." Compassion and purity are the
            characteristics of this new attitude toward men. If I want
            to do for people what I hope they will do for me, I cannot
            be richer than others. I must neither judge them
            nor criticize them. Nor can I kill them, regardless of who
            commands it. I for my part cannot recognize or
            carry out any death sentence. Therefore I cannot hold public
            office, because I live only for the Kingdom of
            peace and love, as Jesus lived for it. I cannot serve any
            vengeance, either on a personal or governmental
            level. Even self-defense is denied to me as a follower of
            Jesus. Discipleship of Jesus binds me to such
            honesty and trust that I can neither accept nor take any
            oath. I am called to such great trust that I must love
            my enemies with a special trust. In this context one of the
            Waldenses said, "Love to one's friends alone is a
            small love. The great and all-embracing love means loving
            even one's enemies." Therefore we cannot answer
            abuse with abuse or avenge evil with evil.

            All this was represented by the brothers with the support of
            the true church. The direct, spontaneous working
            of grace is linked to the true church. Those who follow
            Christ and obey his words belong to his church. True
            love exists only where God is loved; it is love to the
            church and love to one's enemies."
          • holderlin66
            ... caused ... Soren and Starman s differences about Commons and Communism. It can be proved historically that Francis of Assisi and Thomas à Kempis (who
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 10, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "S. Groth" <Sgroth@e...> wrote:
              > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
              > > Old forms of thinking are
              > >utterly
              > > incapable of grasping it, whether it be the Cold War forms from
              > >1945-2000 or the even
              > > older ones of Marxism/class warfare, as with the fellow here who
              > >said that
              > > the mass murders of Westerners by Islamic fanatics was just
              caused
              > >by workers
              > > not being paid enough.

              Soren and Starman's differences about Commons and Communism.

              "It can be proved historically that Francis of Assisi and
              Thomas à Kempis (who belonged to the Catholic
              Church) were part of this movement in its broadest sense.
              Admittedly, Francis of Assisi represented the
              poverty of discipleship of Christ without the freedom of the
              Gospel; and Thomas à Kempis, discipleship
              without the freedom of the Gospel. Nevertheless they were
              within the sphere of influence of this powerful
              movement.

              Around 1177 this movement penetrated deep into Germany,
              especially to Frankfurt and Nuremberg, and
              into Bohemia. Already then we find evidence of adult
              baptism, the strictest concept of marriage, rejection of
              the established church, readiness to accept death
              enthusiastically for the sake of one's convictions.

              The brothers had their own bishop, their own elder, among
              the itinerant preachers. They claimed apostolic
              succession for themselves, stating that around 1215 their
              first period of apostolic succession led to a second
              period. That was a time when severe persecution swept over
              them. In Strasbourg alone five hundred were
              arrested in 1212, people from all walks of life. This shows
              how strong the movement must have been in
              Strasbourg at that time (which, by the way, also throws a
              remarkable light on the activity of Meister Eckhardt
              in that city). The prisoners testified that there were many
              like them in Switzerland, Italy, Germany, and
              Bohemia. At that time eighty were burned at the stake. Their
              elder or bishop, Johannes, was among those
              burned. Face to face with death, he said, "We are all
              sinners; but not because of our faith or because of the
              vices we are accused of without cause. We expect the
              forgiveness of our sins from God, without human help
              and without the mediation of a priest."

              It must be added that the name "Poor of Christ" (a name also
              given to the Franciscans, who were called
              minores or lesser ones, proletarians) proves that a link
              existed between the Waldenses and the Beguines and
              Beghards. The latter were active long before 1370 and were
              similar to the third order of St. Francis. The
              Beguines as sisters and the Beghards as brothers kept
              communal households, practicing community of goods.
              They cared in particular for the poor and the weak, for
              people who were physically or mentally handicapped.
              For themselves they also chose poverty and a life without
              possessions. They demanded utmost simplicity of
              dress, refusing to conform to fashion. Therefore their dress
              developed a certain uniformity, though it did not
              really become a monastic garb. Because they cared for the
              homeless, the poor, the weak, and the sick, they
              were forerunners of the deaconesses. They also worked in the
              field of education, bringing to mind the rural
              boarding schools of twentieth-century Germany. They worked
              communally.

              As early as 1230 we read of congregations where the poor
              lived together and worked for the poor. Their
              opponents spoke ironically of their places as "poorhouses"
              and "workhouses" --a mockery that could apply
              to the present-day Bruderhofs as well. They themselves,
              however, called their communal settlements "houses
              of God." They tackled the social problem just as seriously
              as the religious one. They solved it by having their
              goods in common and by working in community. And while
              tackling the religious-social problem, they came
              to grips with the educational problem as well and solved it
              by establishing special schools and centers of
              education. As a result people gave them the nickname "the
              young folks' good people" or "the good boys."
              They called themselves "apostles," a name that was current
              since before the time of Peter Waldo, who was
              active in southern France around 1177. In 1306 the
              Archbishop of Cologne said that these people had been
              called "Beguines, Beghards, and apostles" since old times.
              They were also called "friends of God," especially
              in the Rhine district; also "apostolic brothers," "bearded
              men," and "witnesses." The movement was a large
              one indeed.

              These movements confessed to the inspiration of Christ's
              Spirit. They believed that the Bible was inspired,
              especially the Gospels, and so were the apostles. They
              confessed particularly to the words of Jesus, to his
              commands and his commissions. They believed that Christ was
              with them according to his promise, "Lo, I am
              with you always, unto the end of the world." They believed
              that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, entered
              into the hearts of those who were dedicated to Christ. "

              Bradford comments;

              The difference in these two points of view goes back to Monastic
              insights all the way to Buddha and the Cursing of the Fig Tree. Here
              we need to re-enter the stunning "Fifth Gospel" and see how the
              Essene community chased Ahriman and Lucifer back into the souls of
              men. While a group of Elite and perfect - Angel strivers - thrust the
              devils into the common - Commons -

              This Cursed Fig Tree mandate is why Buddha, with his method of
              transforming his Angel, was removed to Mars along with St. Francis.
              You might call it, voluntary exile. It was because Christian
              Rosenkreuz understood that a split in the Elite and the Workers would
              divide humanity - and as Steiner and The Fifth Gospel has pointed
              out, there wouldn't be any bread left to give to beggars if they all
              gave up the Earth and sought salvations in Monastaries. Therefore we
              grow a Welfare State.

              But this has deep, disturbing and resonating issues. In Israel and
              Palastine, for instance, we have the example on the world stage of
              Ahrimanic Israel and Luciferic inclined Palastine as a division
              between the have and the have nots. Further, Wall Street and the west
              has become an Essene community of the Rich and the Bush
              Administration along with past Adminstrations support carries over
              into our time a false paradigm essene paradigm.

              An Elite 'filthy rich' constantly sucks up the circulation of monies
              into a 1% bracket. These are the new Ahrimanic impulses of the
              Essenes that have recently incarnated out of the Middle Ages- Age of
              Enlightenment - where the Church and Indulgences dominated the haves
              and the have nots. Some of these karmic Indulgences have certain
              contracts of illusion and egregorial knots that have to do with
              securing, falsely, a moral mandate beyond the threshold. These
              certainly are Indulgences that guaranteed the Soul would indeed get
              an infection all the way into its Spiritual Nature. It would
              incarnate with an Indulged Holy Ghost corruption in the soul make-up
              of its thinking.

              So those who have recently incarnated from the Church dominated world
              who have incarnated into our Time Frame where Science has taken up
              the false paradigms of the Church. Science has arisen to fill the
              shoes of the false beliefs of faith based science; from the illusion
              that resonated with the faith based illusions o the church. It is an
              easy Incarnation knot of moral deceptions that were carried across
              the threshold of the Spiritual World and embedded and wedded through
              priest craft, the soul from Luciferic deceptions to our time period
              and Ahrimanic deceptions. These previous time frame deceptions have
              been brought forward, knotted in the souls of men.

              Communes and Communism along with Marxism and the need for all of
              humanity to work on the transformation of Lucifer and Ahriman, not
              just an elite, severed from the world by spiritual practice or
              severed from the world by greed embedded ancient Indulgences is a
              requirement of Rosenkreuz Initiation profiles. Both a hippie reform
              to communes or the constant Wall Street club of liars are merely
              transposed methods of avoiding The Moral Rights Sphere. The area
              where Individual Freedom learns to transform social nightmares. Ask
              Elaine and Joel as well as Starbirgarden about this. Soren I'm sure
              has a truck full. But that leaves the spiritual blindness of the
              other side who refuse to rethink injustice and clear it up, unknot it
              from their soul life.

              The Rights Sphere is that which protects everyone and was the
              Christian RosenKreuz idealism that hovered over the three branches of
              our initial government model. Legislative, Judicial and Executive
              branches. It is an error of Leo Strauss and Wolfowitz to have not
              uncovered the relation of reincarnation and the ideas that existed
              prior to the Christ Event, regarding Philospher Kings and the ideas
              that arose from Philosopher Kings after the Christ Event. This is why
              the so called Michael School outshines anything going. That would be
              that instead of a dual political system we would have A Threefold
              System and this is what Aristotle brought as a transformed perception
              from his pre-Christ Incarnation to his most recent incarnation as
              Rudolf Steiner. It is an unfitting paradigms, (good vs evil) when
              dealing with the complexity of the Rights Sphere and the Trinity.

              Starman and Soren have a very profound issue that resonates far back
              into history and comes floating right back up to us, as "Phillip Dru
              Adminstrator" and the League of Nations that Woodrow Wilson and
              Colonel House Founded and the current Karl Rove and the Bush
              Adminstration. We have an interesting Ahrimanic trace pattern that we
              can follow up with exacting detail to when Ahriman got his claws into
              our minds in the 14th and 15 centuries. This secret shift to the
              Ahrimanic paradigm is a shift that is the shift between Church and
              Science and humanity has no idea what to do with these fresh
              insights. They are outlined in Steiner's death bed Michael Letters.

              The point is that a new U.N. and a SuperPower moment of Initiation
              has been fronting our attention along with the Mars event of Buddha
              and St. Francis ever since the 9/11 and the dawning of this new 21st
              century. Can you knot-not see the interweaving of the Fifth Gospel,
              and the Nation sacrifice and U.N. outcry all woven together with the
              Buddha Mars event? We should have the guts to refound the U.N. and
              offer the U.S. on the chopping block of Great Free Human Nation
              building gifts. This prevents the tragedy of the French Revolution or
              the long history of SuperPower Initiation failures, France and
              Napoleon, Hitler, Great Britain, Spain, and the current U.S. - not to
              exclude the quiet dragon China of course.. America and millions over
              the globe are hungering for this great deed from the far West to
              antidote the Ahrimanic forces we are dealing with since the 15th
              century.

              Nation Building and Global community buidling now requires a
              sacrifice of a SuperPower. It requires us to understand the twisted
              impulse of the U.S. hating the U.N. and drawing out attention to its
              faults, which go way back to Colonel Hause and all the new paradigms
              of Freedom, Courage and Strength that can be gained by allowing
              humanity to rethink the new 21st century paradigms with all the
              wisdom of a Michael and the Christian Rosenkreuz mandate. Believe me,
              we have it right here in front of us and we can show it to you in
              detail again and again.

              But it comes right down to the Rights Sphere, the moral compass,and
              the difference between the karmic knot of opinion held by Starman and
              the Future transformation of the Global Commune of Soren into the
              Global Community. In this knot of Intellectual and Karmic fields
              rests the whole limited vision of Intellectual Soul Education that
              has allowed our friend Stephen Hawking to out shine "Occult Science
              an Outline". It is a deep failure and fear in the Intellectual Soul
              that has been devilishly contracted through ancient Indulgences to
              expect to be treated on Earth with materialistic expectations. You
              see a seamless occult deed that on one hand gave Indulgences to
              greedy immoral souls in the name of the church, out of a false Holy
              Ghost abuse, and the shift to the Ahrimanic knot in the Intellectual
              Soul that brought souls in today who refuse and cannot approach the
              higher thought forms because they are chained to a karmic egregorial
              contract from a previous life. These Church Indulgences and their
              residue Karmic errors are now knotted in souls who have become part
              of their own Egregorial Army - transplanted in our current Future.

              Bradford
            • Joel Wendt
              On Tue, 2003-06-10 at 11:23, holderlin66 wrote: It is an error of Leo Strauss and Wolfowitz to have not ... Dear Bradford, How is it an error? I don t
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 10, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                On Tue, 2003-06-10 at 11:23, holderlin66 wrote:
                It is an error of Leo Strauss and Wolfowitz to have not
                > uncovered the relation of reincarnation and the ideas that existed
                > prior to the Christ Event, regarding Philospher Kings and the ideas
                > that arose from Philosopher Kings after the Christ Event.

                Dear Bradford,

                How is it an error? I don't understand this.

                warm regards,
                joel
              • Bradford Riley
                From: Joel Wendt ... Thanks Joel; I was just contemplating your depth working out of dimensional being and your very fine insights. Again it
                Message 7 of 9 , Jun 10, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  From: Joel Wendt <hermit@...>
                  >: 10 Jun 2003 12:50:52 -0400
                  >
                  >and the ideas that existed
                  > > prior to the Christ Event, regarding Philospher Kings and the ideas
                  > > that arose from Philosopher Kings after the Christ Event.
                  >
                  >Dear Bradford,
                  >
                  > How is it an error? I don't understand this.
                  >
                  >warm regards,
                  >joel

                  Thanks Joel;

                  I was just contemplating your depth working out of dimensional being and
                  your very fine insights. Again it appears Saturn biographical depth has
                  given you some really anchored insights. Keep up the inspiring work.

                  "What did we know and when did we know it?" It depends on the meaning of
                  the word "IS". Did Iraq have WMD's? Leo Srauss has a circumscribed world
                  view. Certainly in Weimar one couldn't escape Goethe and Mephistopheles. But
                  it is easy to remove the Christ Event out of discussions. Fall back and Leo
                  always had Socrates. Leo also had a good heart and sincere, almost
                  Waldorfian Humanism that was an inspiration to his students. Meanwhile the
                  growing weed of actual Philospher King Waldorfianism grows without his
                  interest. Grows until 1973 out of Germany and still no interest in the roots
                  of Weimar. Error is unable to track information. Herman Hesse or Rilke or
                  Heidegger for that matter track through clues past prejudical issues.
                  Failure to encounter the 'big picture' is probably as complicated today as
                  it was during the disturbing Global Press Deception, in hindsight- of the
                  prophecy Steiner laid on the table for 1933.

                  Naturally we can't blame ourselves for being involved with the Biblical Fall
                  or the Fall of Intelligence yet we are so engaged in correcting error.
                  Misconceptions that either derive from misunderstanding the humanism that
                  Leo was intent upon or observing historical threads where the Selective
                  Intelligence, rooted in our karmic direction finds itself attracted or
                  repulsed by ideas. The idea of Materialism in Stephen Hawkings work, might
                  appeal to many souls. India's ideas on Reincarnation must be hacked to
                  pieces because it doesn't fit the paradigm.

                  So as you wisely indicated with certain psychological explorations going on
                  elsewhere, it is always a level of Selective Intelligence and or Growth to
                  allow one idea to illuminate another or not. As you well know, Steiner gets
                  blamed for so many other souls who really have failed to look at the depth,
                  growth and vision of a more mature Intelligence, against their own snug
                  little Intellects or should I say smug little intellects. Much that was
                  talked about with Jung vs Steiner has the same problems of safe shrunken
                  vision.

                  Are they absolute soul damning errors.... well that depends on if the I Am
                  can unknot itself enough to gain true Goethean Objectivity as Own Barfield
                  attempted to do. University life is a self-fulfilling stream of particualar
                  'accepted' thinking patterns. This narrow and smug; or one could say,
                  "Familiar" camping grounds of the Intellect keep hikers off the Mountain
                  tops. If one felt the wind on the Mountains Tops where Weimar was on Feb 27,
                  1933 was the same devastating event as why the Holy Land is such a seething
                  core of creepy crawly activity, we could feel the mighty wind of heaven in
                  our souls and say, My God, true Philospher Kings, Bodhisattvas and Buddhas,
                  and the deeds that they wrought are still ringing with cosmic thunder...
                  Hearing it or not hearing it can be errors that cause enormous human
                  catastrophe... and brings us back to the St. John Gospel.

                  Priests who have lured boys into their snares stepped over the error just as
                  Popes who have brought down agreements that will cause Cancer, such as
                  Indulgences made of Spiritual Materialism - can carry errors well beyond the
                  grave and errors can be planted blind spots in the brain pattern that lead
                  to denial and finally comes to Cancer. Mafia supported Church and
                  contributions based on Political deceptions and economic failures in
                  thinking, cause huge errors. Cause a universal failure to understand
                  sainthood based beyond affiliation with any creed, but rather on the soul
                  observations of the person who has entered the realm of Spirit Self.... The
                  Church and the Inquisition as well as the Fall of the Templars reprsent
                  errors and errors - Like pretending WMD were a global threat from Iraq and
                  that Hans Blix couldn't do his job caused the loss of thousands of Iraq's...
                  and history and information has launched us onto a false trail in the 21st
                  century.

                  John Gospel:

                  "6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a
                  witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might
                  believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the
                  light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the
                  world.[2]
                  10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world
                  did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did
                  not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his
                  name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13children born not of
                  natural descent,[3] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of
                  God.
                  14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his
                  glory, the glory of the One and Only,[4] who came from the Father, full of
                  grace and truth.
                  15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom
                  I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' "

                  Bradford comments;

                  Time not only heals all wounds but Time washes away the traces of
                  Personality. We end up with Macbeth and each actor strutting his stuff on
                  the stage of time, meaning nothing - or everything, depending on the
                  condition of your soul life and your Karmic track record. It is hard not to
                  see, now that our eyes have been trained to see, that Beheaded John had
                  indeed an Angelic Messenger in his bearing to greet the Solar Word at the
                  Baptism. Christ had just shrunk into those 4 dimensions you talked about,
                  out of the Angelic World. So who is writing this John Gospel, who has been
                  invited to understand the Great Virgin Sophia invited to the Wedding... we
                  see the amazing, stunning, impossible idea, that Twin Souls were joined -
                  even though the Chymical Wedding of C.R. and "The Green Snake and Beautiful
                  Lily" as well as the forces of Novalis in his longing for Sophia.. all speak
                  of the ancient echo of the union of the two John's.

                  So error can only be pertaining to streams of maturity and ripening. The
                  Pauline Stream, the Peter Stream and the John Stream. But errors in
                  perception are what makes the world so devastatingly interesting. Steiner
                  has often remarked about errors in thinking. Even while writing the
                  Philosophy of Freedom we encounter errors in thinking and these change the
                  entire potential of unborn souls as they search, sometimes in vain, for
                  riddles of existence.

                  You are a very patient fellow when it comes to pointing out clear thought
                  terrain and failures to look at the maps with enough growth and spiritual
                  insights. So much for Error, the Fall and unconscious Deception in high
                  places.

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                • Joel Wendt
                  On Tue, 2003-06-10 at 14:17, Bradford Riley wrote: Christ had just shrunk into those 4 dimensions you talked about, ... For those on the list who might be
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jun 10, 2003
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                    On Tue, 2003-06-10 at 14:17, Bradford Riley wrote:
                    Christ had just shrunk into those 4 dimensions you talked about,
                    > out of the Angelic World.

                    For those on the list who might be mystified here, Bradford has been
                    talking about some stuff I posted to the anthropos-science list...

                    Bradford,

                    Well, I wouldn't use the term "shrunk" given that the Point ( 1
                    dimensionality) and the Sphere at Infinity are an identity ...

                    "Think on it: how the point becomes a sphere and yet remains itself.
                    Hast thou understood how the infinite sphere may be only a point, and
                    then come again, for then the Infinite will shine forth for thee in the
                    Finite" R.S. [quoted in Physical and Ethereal Spaces by George Adams]

                    warm regards,
                    joel
                  • 888
                    Dear Joel, ... That stuff sounds very interesting. Could you please repost it here? Greetings, Bruce
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jun 10, 2003
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                      Dear Joel,
                      > For those on the list who might be mystified here, Bradford has been
                      > talking about some stuff I posted to the anthropos-science list...
                      >

                      That "stuff" sounds very interesting. Could you please repost it here?

                      Greetings,
                      Bruce
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