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2nd reply-Re: Joel, Europe&America&Threefolding

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  • elaineupton2001
    Well, I am here again at the computer, dear Joel. I ended my last post rather abruptly. There are many things in your own post that I agree with, but I did
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 2, 2003
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      Well, I am here again at the computer, dear Joel. I ended my last
      post rather abruptly.

      There are many things in your own post that I agree with, but I did
      want to point to the matter of "impatience" as a kind of native
      quality as questionable, at least.

      As for Hopi Prophecy, Sun Mysteries (anthroposophic offerings) and
      Saturn Mysteries (native american offerings), and Stephen Clarke's
      work, and the references to all this in your post, I find many riches
      here.

      For now, I would just say that the European descended Americans
      (many, not all) have not yet learned the way of intimacy with Earth
      (see the Hopi origins story,a nd many such native stories that show
      more relationship to Earth).

      Blessings,
      elaine

      -
    • Joel Wendt
      Dear Elaine, I always find it curious, when I post something brief, coupled with a reference to the larger and more detailed work, how it is that people feel
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 2, 2003
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        Dear Elaine,

        I always find it curious, when I post something brief, coupled with a
        reference to the larger and more detailed work, how it is that people
        feel like they can easily set the matter aside without striving to
        encounter the original work.

        All I gave of Morey's work was a couple of lines of something thirty
        pages long, and which included references to how he had arrived at his
        conclusions, what Native Peoples he had met and so forth. Yet, without
        batting an eye you dismissed the conclusions of this work.

        It also might have occurred to you, to on your own work at a deeper
        examination of the problem/question, rather then think you could so
        immediately form a judgment and arrive at the truth. Morey had given a
        lot of time to this, and I think it should not be dismissed in quite the
        off hand way that you did.

        You did say: "My experience, and, I trust, my imagination, lead me to
        different views, though I am still open."

        This is, after all, a very important question. Let me put it in
        another form.

        Where are the roots of the American Soul? Is there such a thing, that
        is do Americans (those born in the United States) have in common various
        characteristics in the same way that the French might, or the Japanese?
        If they do, what are these characteristics? Having elaborated such
        characteristics, are they akin to another people's characteristics? For
        example, are native born citizens of the United States (excluding Native
        Americans), more like their physical ancestors in these general
        characteristics (Europeans, Asians, etc), or more like the aboriginal
        peoples here? If a change arises, in which the characteristics become
        more like the aboriginal peoples, in what generations does it appear?
        What is the role of the evolution of consciousness with regard to this?
        Could it be that Native Americans are the earliest iteration of what is
        to become the "American Soul"? Perhaps it is more accurate to see these
        soul characteristics as themselves evolving over time, yet still
        appreciate their essential relatedness, as against thinking that the
        American Soul is derivative of European or other people's soul
        characteristics? If we can come to knowledge of this kind, of what use
        is it to us? What do we in fact know, if we determine our general soul
        characteristics and/or whether these are more related to the aboriginal
        peoples here than to any other peoples? Does this help us understand
        better our future? May it help us understand better how to relate to
        the Native Peoples? What are the implications of such conclusions for
        how the Anthroposophical Society in America conducts itself? You
        mentioned the different Nations - do you mean to suggest that the
        aboriginal peoples have no collective soul characteristics? Are such
        variations (assuming they exist) as wide as the differences between
        modern Americans and say the English?

        Other material to study: The Other America: the West in the Light of
        Spiritual Science, by Carl Stigma; America and Americanism, by F.W.
        Zelma's van Emotion; and, America's Way: The Tasks Ahead, by Dietrich V.
        Austen.

        Granted it might be difficult to find these works, and to assimilate
        their offerings, but don't you think some effort needs to be expended
        given the significance of the question?

        For me this is a field of interest in which I have labored for many
        years in the company of a number of other researchers. While I urge you
        to remain within your own thinking about these questions, I also
        encourage you to withhold judgment until your experience is perhaps
        richer. Are you are impatient to act :-)?

        Possibly you confuse differences of culture, for differences of soul?
        This in itself then launches another dozen questions easily, doesn't
        it. If culture is more like the clothes we wear and the social rules we
        follow and the ideas we hold, what then are soul characteristics and how
        do we perceive those against the background noise of cultural
        differences? Which is causally related to what? Do soul
        characteristics determine cultural differences? What about environment?

        I have said elsewhere, for example, that the American Soul is more
        oriented to the outer world, and responding to that, while the Central
        European Soul (please excuse the generalizations) is more related to the
        inner world. As a consequence, with regard to social questions, the
        Central European tends to want to incarnate an Ideal - that is they
        first think the Ideal and then try to conform the social to that. The
        American, on the other hand, tends to see a problem and work to solve it
        it the most practical and direct way, such that any Ideal element is
        incidental. The Ideal for the American is only valid to the extent that
        it works (pragmatism), while for the Central European the Ideal is the
        measure by which the social is evaluated.

        The result, to be as concrete as possible, can be seen in a
        conversation that I participated in within anthroposophical circles here
        in New Hampshire. We were discussing current events, and especially
        9/11, and how threefolding might relate to this. The leading Central
        European "expert" on the social, who has lived here for perhaps a fifth
        of his life (now in his 60's), referred again and again to the need to
        change America to conform in some degree to this Ideal picture he had of
        threefolding. I, on the other hand, was of the mind that such changes
        as could be accomplished had to be rooted in what was itself already
        emerging, and that what one needed to do was work with that. One could
        still "see" threefolding, but it was essential to see it arriving not
        from the Ideal downward, but from the soul's natural impulses outward.

        In another context, I have been working for a long time now with a
        group that takes its inspiration from the Transcendentalists. We have,
        after a long effort, finally begun to have "conversations" in which the
        spirit could be present, an activity I believe was and is well
        understood by Native Peoples. Yet, when I referred to this relationship
        between "Alcottian conversation", Native conversation, and Goethean
        conversation on another list, I was pounced upon by an English
        anthroposophist, who asserted that America's original peoples could have
        in no way had such conversations, because they were bound up in a group
        soul based social life.

        I could go on and on, but all I really wanted to do was to suggest how
        important these questions are that you are asking, and again to
        encourage you to enrich the resources from which you draw on as you work
        with them.

        warm regards,
        joel
      • Bradford Riley
        Joel I found both posts extemely rich. I understand your frustration. I really envy you having that profound and rare text. I know how precious and deep some
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 2, 2003
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          Joel I found both posts extemely rich. I understand your frustration. I
          really envy you having that profound and rare text. I know how precious and
          deep some of the researchers have delved into the American Spirit. You and
          Stephen, along with others you mentioned, "Other America" etc, are full of
          riches. Not that the whole world has interest in our little navels over in
          the Far West.

          One thing that caught my eye, was the ability the Native American and the
          West had toward....this is hard to describe, but it was something and is
          something like, observing in the will an impulse or idea. The Native
          American as a type seemed to be able to hold onto an I-inner will perception
          and move it through to deed in a very Individual-Saturn warmed manner.

          When we see the inventiveness and inventions of the West, we see this
          impulse of grasping deed, idea, will impulse and following it out, either
          through technology or as from earlier cultural impulses, a Native American
          acting in unison with Earth and Sky and the Mother. There is a style, a kind
          of warmed perception that has drifted out of its intimacy with the whole in
          modern America. A kind of deep down severed from the Warmth of the I AM
          intimacy, that a Native American appeared to sustain.

          Early in my playwright days, I felt this intimate kernel, idea field that
          brought my I Am on course with my destiny by the intimacy and action of the
          deed. Creativity and the roots of the I AM force, where we catch - like
          catching a breeze in sailing, you sense the breeze and you move your craft
          to catch this breeze, you act in conjunction with the elements- this inner
          intimacy with perception of the I AM and the Artist, Scientist, inventor
          sometimes appears in the pre-occupation and focus of energies. A studio, a
          lab, or unfolding forces of an idea, like that of Bill Gates reveals
          something that today tends to over-ride social relationships. Nursing an
          idea into birth, an invention or something like an obsession or obsessive
          compulsive focus...as we see some Artist like Michael Angelo struggling with
          his demons and his task, reveals something to me.

          Ideas and will streams either catch people and bring their Specialized
          Interest and focus into some very pragmatic reason or a corporation or the
          military see some key trigger in the idea... and this at times becomes less
          warm. It can even grow cold without the kind of resonating heart field that
          seems always under fire, as one wrestles with the practical profit or
          usefulness or uselessness of something that has been defined by outer
          cultural events as wedded to profit or not. To do things, as Tolstory might
          say, the anti-dote to the west of doing Nothing.. Nothing that isn't warmed
          and rooted in the soul life and felt as a tug of the I Am. America has found
          its way to define what arises in the depths of the will as important or
          unimportant and we all live with that. But the Native American, I felt,
          still grasped his important perception of action and deed, with deeper
          intimacy.

          Granted we would enter the Philosophy of Freedom here; we would enter into
          what sort of indications in the will that have moved America and the West to
          wrestle with what Steiner described as death forces. Where the Saturn warmth
          of the I AM still held this intimacy, it seems tarnished and tainted by
          other forces of will and cultural perception that cripple young people, that
          derail the quiet sensing of what is Warm to the individual and not the
          Techno benediction of Useful. Pragmatic. The amazing distractions and far
          flung obscuring in individuals from sensing their true inner North is
          something that Native Americans, aside from drinking and addictions that
          offered a derailment of the warmth of soul and confused the navigation of
          the I Am, used to exist without destractions. The Native American culture
          appears to feel time differently and the American Impulse appears to have to
          account for the sense of Deeds that don't need to show profit exactly..and
          they don't have to have warmth in them.

          Anyways I find it difficult to express because it is a core creative
          submerging, entering, sleeping into the action of the will or feeling the
          warmth or coldness, the pulls against and toward certain impulses that now
          shape not only culture in America but Technology...It's a hard one to lay
          hold of exactly.

          Bradford

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        • elaineupton2001
          Dear Joel, ... coupled with a ... people ... thirty ... his ... without ... Joel, you are one who often writes of the importance of following clear and organic
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 3, 2003
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            Dear Joel,

            You write in reply to my post:


            >
            > I always find it curious, when I post something brief,
            coupled with a
            > reference to the larger and more detailed work, how it is that
            people
            > feel like they can easily set the matter aside without striving to
            > encounter the original work.
            >
            > All I gave of Morey's work was a couple of lines of something
            thirty
            > pages long, and which included references to how he had arrived at
            his
            > conclusions, what Native Peoples he had met and so forth. Yet,
            without
            > batting an eye you dismissed the conclusions of this work.


            Joel, you are one who often writes of the importance of following
            clear and organic thinking processes. I find what you write above is
            not an example of a clear and organic living thinking process.

            You also often write of people's views being colored by sympathies
            and antipathies. Perhaps you teach, like many of us, what is
            important for you to learn.

            You also say that it might have occured to me I could make a deeper
            examination of the problem I might "rather than think [I} could
            immediately form a judgement and arrive at the truth."

            This is an example of how in my view you do not think or read
            clearly, for nowhere in my posts on this thread will you find
            evidence of my having felt I have arrived at the truth.

            It is not "without batting an eye" that I dismiss the conclusions of
            Moreley's work, yet I wonder if--IF--without batting an eye, you
            dismiss so much of what I said to you in this last and other posts
            because, in fact, while you say many things that are important, in my
            view, and often say them clearly and forcefully, in my view, there is
            much in *the heart* and core of my recent posts that you in your
            recent replies ignore or do not address.

            Do you enjoy the position of being the teacher, the lecturerer, and
            having, as you once called them, "fans"? Neither you nor Mr. Moreley
            (so far) stand as experts to me on the subject of the "soul of Native
            America". I do not dismiss what you say or what he says, but rather
            raise doubts, clearly stated in my posts. Also, I find riches in what
            you say (and often tell you so), but also I find things to question
            and cast doubt upon. I am not a "fan." I respect you more than to be
            a "fan", and I will not accept what you or Mr. Moreley say without
            question if the question arises, and if disagreement arises, I will
            say so. This does not mean I think I have arrived at some final
            truth. So, maybe you might read clearly and practice what you preach
            about clear thinking and moving beyond antipathies and sympathies, if
            that is needed.

            I realize that there is much more you say in your letter, but your
            opening paragraphs are ones I have attempted to address because they
            permeate the rest of your post.

            Thank you for your offerings, ones that always are helpful to me, one
            way or another, very helpful.

            Blessings,
            elaine
          • elaineupton2001
            Dear Joel, The second two-thirds or so (smile) of your post where you ask many questions of soul qualities of races and groups, of how anthroposophists
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 3, 2003
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              Dear Joel,

              The second two-thirds or so (smile) of your post where you ask many
              questions of "soul" qualities of races and groups, of how
              anthroposophists address these, and so on are questions important to
              me, as to you. Here and there in your questioning you take on what
              for me is, as I already implied in my last post, a lecturing tone and
              suggest that I might study more, without even knowing anything about
              what I have studied or where I might be coming from. There is a
              certain presumptuousness, in my view.

              In any case, the questions themselves are important to me, and I have
              been pursuing many of them for most of my life.

              Blessings,
              elaine
            • Joel Wendt
              Dear Elaine, Sorry for the tone. I rather have some passion about this then not, and don t expect perfection of myself or you (although I do expect it of
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 3, 2003
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                Dear Elaine,

                Sorry for the tone. I rather have some passion about this then not,
                and don't expect perfection of myself or you (although I do expect it of
                Starman and lightwhatever.)

                If I was presumptuous of your search and work, again I am sorry. We
                don't really know much about each other through this medium, do we.

                warm regards,
                joel

                On Tue, 2003-06-03 at 18:08, elaineupton2001 wrote:
                > Dear Joel,
                >
                > The second two-thirds or so (smile) of your post where you ask many
                > questions of "soul" qualities of races and groups, of how
                > anthroposophists address these, and so on are questions important to
                > me, as to you. Here and there in your questioning you take on what
                > for me is, as I already implied in my last post, a lecturing tone and
                > suggest that I might study more, without even knowing anything about
                > what I have studied or where I might be coming from. There is a
                > certain presumptuousness, in my view.
                >
                > In any case, the questions themselves are important to me, and I have
                > been pursuing many of them for most of my life.
                >
                > Blessings,
                > elaine
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy
                > Unsubscribe:
                > anthroposophy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > List owner: anthroposophy-owner@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • elaineupton2001
                Dear Joel, Thanks for writing again. I agree that we do not really know each other, and this medium provides its own challenges in that regard, for sure!
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 4, 2003
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                  Dear Joel,

                  Thanks for writing again. I agree that we do not really know each
                  other, and this medium provides its own challenges in that regard,
                  for sure!

                  ((Yes, I, too, expect perfection, not from myself, of course, but
                  from those stellar beings--Lightsearcher and Starman----smile))

                  We share the passion for the subject of Native America and other
                  groups and how the souls of peoples express wisdom and can address
                  concerns of anthroposophy and Threefolding. Thank you.

                  A few weeks ago I was in Hopi Land (mainly in Second Mesa, but also
                  in Keams Canyon), which is about 1/2 days drive from here. Being
                  there, also after being in Navajo and Apache country and what I call
                  Georgia O'Keeffe country, was so meaningful to me, and I do not yet
                  even know how to express all of that in conventional prose. ((I did
                  write a short story, which has been sent, in a collection of stories
                  I wrote on the character of places, to a publisher.)) I am a writer
                  of poetry and of stories, and perhaps I express myself better in the
                  medium of what is called poetry and "literary fiction"
                  (although "fiction" is a misleading term, I feel).

                  It seems I do express myself poorly sometimes on this list, and I do
                  want you to know that I was not dismissing Mr. Moreley (but
                  attempting to question something), and also a hard copy of his work
                  is likely to soon be in my possession (smile).

                  By the way, on the subject of anthroposophy in relation to Native
                  America, African-Americans, Africans,the geography of America and
                  more, our former listmate, Stephen Clarke, who also has a passion for
                  these threads, and who lives near me here in Santa Fe, has sent an
                  announcement of an upcoming August event outside Detroit, an
                  annoucement you may already have, but if not, here is the gist of it
                  (as I understand it). --Well, on second thought: others on this list
                  also may also be interested, so maybe I'd better send it under a
                  separate subject heading in case some are not reading this.

                  Blessings,
                  elaine
                • Joel Wendt
                  Dear Elaine, Fortune willing, I should by around the first week or so of August, finally be permanently out there in the Southwest with you and Stephen and
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 5, 2003
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                    Dear Elaine,

                    Fortune willing, I should by around the first week or so of August,
                    finally be permanently out there in the Southwest with you and Stephen
                    and others, as I am moving to Prescott Arizona to live near my youngest
                    (she of 15, with nose ring, going on 35).

                    My last visit to Hopi Land, that providence allowed, was over Easter
                    weekend of 1985, and except for the horrible heat of the summers, I very
                    much look forward to returning to this quite remarkable area of not only
                    the Americas, but the Planet as well.

                    I know of the conference, but I am glad you have told the list. I
                    would like to go, but all the aspects of my move are up in the air, and
                    I can't yet make any concrete plans.

                    warm regards,
                    joel

                    On Wed, 2003-06-04 at 18:08, elaineupton2001 wrote:
                    > Dear Joel,
                    >
                    > Thanks for writing again. I agree that we do not really know each
                    > other, and this medium provides its own challenges in that regard,
                    > for sure!
                    >
                    > ((Yes, I, too, expect perfection, not from myself, of course, but
                    > from those stellar beings--Lightsearcher and Starman----smile))
                    >
                    > We share the passion for the subject of Native America and other
                    > groups and how the souls of peoples express wisdom and can address
                    > concerns of anthroposophy and Threefolding. Thank you.
                    >
                    > A few weeks ago I was in Hopi Land (mainly in Second Mesa, but also
                    > in Keams Canyon), which is about 1/2 days drive from here. Being
                    > there, also after being in Navajo and Apache country and what I call
                    > Georgia O'Keeffe country, was so meaningful to me, and I do not yet
                    > even know how to express all of that in conventional prose. ((I did
                    > write a short story, which has been sent, in a collection of stories
                    > I wrote on the character of places, to a publisher.)) I am a writer
                    > of poetry and of stories, and perhaps I express myself better in the
                    > medium of what is called poetry and "literary fiction"
                    > (although "fiction" is a misleading term, I feel).
                    >
                    > It seems I do express myself poorly sometimes on this list, and I do
                    > want you to know that I was not dismissing Mr. Moreley (but
                    > attempting to question something), and also a hard copy of his work
                    > is likely to soon be in my possession (smile).
                    >
                    > By the way, on the subject of anthroposophy in relation to Native
                    > America, African-Americans, Africans,the geography of America and
                    > more, our former listmate, Stephen Clarke, who also has a passion for
                    > these threads, and who lives near me here in Santa Fe, has sent an
                    > announcement of an upcoming August event outside Detroit, an
                    > annoucement you may already have, but if not, here is the gist of it
                    > (as I understand it). --Well, on second thought: others on this list
                    > also may also be interested, so maybe I'd better send it under a
                    > separate subject heading in case some are not reading this.
                    >
                    > Blessings,
                    > elaine
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy
                    > Unsubscribe:
                    > anthroposophy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > List owner: anthroposophy-owner@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                  • elaineupton2001
                    Wow-wee! Wonderful that you are returning west, now Southwest, dear Joel! Maybe we (you, Stephen, Martha Keltiz, who else?--) can stir up this red dirt here
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 5, 2003
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                      Wow-wee! Wonderful that you are returning west, now Southwest, dear
                      Joel! Maybe we (you, Stephen, Martha Keltiz, who else?--) can stir up
                      this red dirt here and ride (or walk, or fly?) right up on top of one
                      of these mesas and look out over this great land and join the Natives
                      in a real Pow-Wow and sit with them in circle and talk about how the
                      various spiritual streams meet in this great land!--That could be a
                      continuation, possibly, of whatever happens at the Detroit event
                      ("Journey into the Heart of the New America") in August.

                      Far-fetched? (smile)

                      Blessings,
                      elaine
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