Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Joel, Europe&America&Threefolding

Expand Messages
  • elaineupton2001
    Hello Joel and all interested, Joel, thanks for your reply. Even if my question to you was imprecisely worded, you have responded well, so that fruitful
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 2, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello Joel and all interested,

      Joel, thanks for your reply. Even if my question to you was
      imprecisely worded, you have responded well, so that fruitful
      discussion is possible.


      Joel writes:
      >
      > The question can be asked is what is the nature of the soul
      life of the
      > native peoples, and those who are of "foreign" descent, but are born
      > here (leaving aside the soul life of those who are born elsewhere
      and
      > then represent the first migration of a soul life originating in
      another
      > geographical locale).
      ****************

      Yes, well put, and an important (essential) question if we are to be
      true to our destinies here in this land.

      Joel continues:
      >
      > I have at hand a small pamphlet, written from a lecture given
      > originally at the Waldorf School at Adelphi University, by
      Sylvester M.
      > Morey in 1961 called "American Indians and our way of life".
      ((snip . . . ))
      >
      > Here is what I wrote in "Song of the Grandfathers*: real
      wealth
      > (wisdom), and the redemption of social and political existence
      > (civilization)", at http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/sggfr.html
      >
      > "Mr. Morey writes: that, that aspect of the American Character,
      which
      > once having an idea is impatient to act upon it, has more kinship
      with
      > the Indian, than with the European; that the European came here
      looking
      > for individual freedom, only later aspiring toward a democratic
      > government -democracy being an essential of Indian cultures (not so
      much
      > as an idea, but more as the actual way of practice); that the kind
      of
      > competition carried on in business and exempliefied by team sports
      has
      > its origin in the American Indian, there are no European roots to
      team
      > sports; that our natural generosity is not an European trait, but
      one
      > found solely among the Indian in the many traditions of the Give-
      away;
      > that the many struggles for freedom of women has arisen stronger in
      > America than in Europe, mirroring in its goal what was already
      achieved
      > for women in many Indian societies; and that the impulse to form
      > confederations owes its inspiration to the Indian.
      ********************

      I find this interesting, for sure, and am not sure that I see eye to
      eye with Mr. Morely on some points.

      No European roots to team sports? Is this a fact? Maybe so. Maybe...
      But EVEN if it is so, it does not automatically follow that
      the "American" way (generally) of being "impatient" to act is the way
      of the natives. First off, there are many different natives (yes, all
      have common traits,especially as regards their relationship to Earth
      and beings of Earth as living "peoples", but there are also vast
      differences among them).

      I have lived with Natives (Wampanoags in Massachusetts) and presently
      live in the southwest in neighborhoods among, and work with (through
      my partner) various groups--Navajo, Mescalero Apache, Jicarilla
      Apache, Tewa Pueblos, et al. ((As for the matter of my questionable
      and varied blood lines, I won't go into that now, except to say that
      as a student of spiritual science, I seek development beyond that
      stuck in blood lines; yet know that the matter of blood lines is not
      entirely to be dismissed, but that is a complex subject.))--My point
      is that my experience and, I trust, grounded imagination of Native
      peoples does not (so far, and I am still open, but so far does not)
      show me that the "American impatience" for action is a native
      quality. Au contraire!

      My experience, and, I trust, my imagination, lead me to different
      views, though I am still open.

      There is a tradition of "warrior culture", but that is only one
      aspect of native cultures. There is the culture of longsufferingness,
      of patience, of intimate relationship with the land, one that
      requires long listening to the land and all beings ("peoples") of the
      land. There is the tradition of sitting in circle, patiently
      listening to stories, passing the "talking stick", something I have
      done many times. There a long process often occurs, and consensus is
      reached (this is not a process of agressive campaigning, quick
      voting, and following a result derived at from count of a superficial
      majority).

      Yes, many natives have taken on the ways of the dominant culture, but
      within them still live many of the traditional ways of consensus
      making, patient listening, and so on.

      (The AIM, aggressive American Indian Movement, harkens to a kind
      of "warrior culture", but this is only one aspect of native
      cultures.))

      For the rest, Mr. Morely's ideas about the Iroquois and democracy, I
      will also have more to say, but must exit the computer now. I'm sorry
      for ending abruptly.

      Blessings,
      elaine
    • elaineupton2001
      Well, I am here again at the computer, dear Joel. I ended my last post rather abruptly. There are many things in your own post that I agree with, but I did
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 2, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        Well, I am here again at the computer, dear Joel. I ended my last
        post rather abruptly.

        There are many things in your own post that I agree with, but I did
        want to point to the matter of "impatience" as a kind of native
        quality as questionable, at least.

        As for Hopi Prophecy, Sun Mysteries (anthroposophic offerings) and
        Saturn Mysteries (native american offerings), and Stephen Clarke's
        work, and the references to all this in your post, I find many riches
        here.

        For now, I would just say that the European descended Americans
        (many, not all) have not yet learned the way of intimacy with Earth
        (see the Hopi origins story,a nd many such native stories that show
        more relationship to Earth).

        Blessings,
        elaine

        -
      • Joel Wendt
        Dear Elaine, I always find it curious, when I post something brief, coupled with a reference to the larger and more detailed work, how it is that people feel
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 2, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Elaine,

          I always find it curious, when I post something brief, coupled with a
          reference to the larger and more detailed work, how it is that people
          feel like they can easily set the matter aside without striving to
          encounter the original work.

          All I gave of Morey's work was a couple of lines of something thirty
          pages long, and which included references to how he had arrived at his
          conclusions, what Native Peoples he had met and so forth. Yet, without
          batting an eye you dismissed the conclusions of this work.

          It also might have occurred to you, to on your own work at a deeper
          examination of the problem/question, rather then think you could so
          immediately form a judgment and arrive at the truth. Morey had given a
          lot of time to this, and I think it should not be dismissed in quite the
          off hand way that you did.

          You did say: "My experience, and, I trust, my imagination, lead me to
          different views, though I am still open."

          This is, after all, a very important question. Let me put it in
          another form.

          Where are the roots of the American Soul? Is there such a thing, that
          is do Americans (those born in the United States) have in common various
          characteristics in the same way that the French might, or the Japanese?
          If they do, what are these characteristics? Having elaborated such
          characteristics, are they akin to another people's characteristics? For
          example, are native born citizens of the United States (excluding Native
          Americans), more like their physical ancestors in these general
          characteristics (Europeans, Asians, etc), or more like the aboriginal
          peoples here? If a change arises, in which the characteristics become
          more like the aboriginal peoples, in what generations does it appear?
          What is the role of the evolution of consciousness with regard to this?
          Could it be that Native Americans are the earliest iteration of what is
          to become the "American Soul"? Perhaps it is more accurate to see these
          soul characteristics as themselves evolving over time, yet still
          appreciate their essential relatedness, as against thinking that the
          American Soul is derivative of European or other people's soul
          characteristics? If we can come to knowledge of this kind, of what use
          is it to us? What do we in fact know, if we determine our general soul
          characteristics and/or whether these are more related to the aboriginal
          peoples here than to any other peoples? Does this help us understand
          better our future? May it help us understand better how to relate to
          the Native Peoples? What are the implications of such conclusions for
          how the Anthroposophical Society in America conducts itself? You
          mentioned the different Nations - do you mean to suggest that the
          aboriginal peoples have no collective soul characteristics? Are such
          variations (assuming they exist) as wide as the differences between
          modern Americans and say the English?

          Other material to study: The Other America: the West in the Light of
          Spiritual Science, by Carl Stigma; America and Americanism, by F.W.
          Zelma's van Emotion; and, America's Way: The Tasks Ahead, by Dietrich V.
          Austen.

          Granted it might be difficult to find these works, and to assimilate
          their offerings, but don't you think some effort needs to be expended
          given the significance of the question?

          For me this is a field of interest in which I have labored for many
          years in the company of a number of other researchers. While I urge you
          to remain within your own thinking about these questions, I also
          encourage you to withhold judgment until your experience is perhaps
          richer. Are you are impatient to act :-)?

          Possibly you confuse differences of culture, for differences of soul?
          This in itself then launches another dozen questions easily, doesn't
          it. If culture is more like the clothes we wear and the social rules we
          follow and the ideas we hold, what then are soul characteristics and how
          do we perceive those against the background noise of cultural
          differences? Which is causally related to what? Do soul
          characteristics determine cultural differences? What about environment?

          I have said elsewhere, for example, that the American Soul is more
          oriented to the outer world, and responding to that, while the Central
          European Soul (please excuse the generalizations) is more related to the
          inner world. As a consequence, with regard to social questions, the
          Central European tends to want to incarnate an Ideal - that is they
          first think the Ideal and then try to conform the social to that. The
          American, on the other hand, tends to see a problem and work to solve it
          it the most practical and direct way, such that any Ideal element is
          incidental. The Ideal for the American is only valid to the extent that
          it works (pragmatism), while for the Central European the Ideal is the
          measure by which the social is evaluated.

          The result, to be as concrete as possible, can be seen in a
          conversation that I participated in within anthroposophical circles here
          in New Hampshire. We were discussing current events, and especially
          9/11, and how threefolding might relate to this. The leading Central
          European "expert" on the social, who has lived here for perhaps a fifth
          of his life (now in his 60's), referred again and again to the need to
          change America to conform in some degree to this Ideal picture he had of
          threefolding. I, on the other hand, was of the mind that such changes
          as could be accomplished had to be rooted in what was itself already
          emerging, and that what one needed to do was work with that. One could
          still "see" threefolding, but it was essential to see it arriving not
          from the Ideal downward, but from the soul's natural impulses outward.

          In another context, I have been working for a long time now with a
          group that takes its inspiration from the Transcendentalists. We have,
          after a long effort, finally begun to have "conversations" in which the
          spirit could be present, an activity I believe was and is well
          understood by Native Peoples. Yet, when I referred to this relationship
          between "Alcottian conversation", Native conversation, and Goethean
          conversation on another list, I was pounced upon by an English
          anthroposophist, who asserted that America's original peoples could have
          in no way had such conversations, because they were bound up in a group
          soul based social life.

          I could go on and on, but all I really wanted to do was to suggest how
          important these questions are that you are asking, and again to
          encourage you to enrich the resources from which you draw on as you work
          with them.

          warm regards,
          joel
        • Bradford Riley
          Joel I found both posts extemely rich. I understand your frustration. I really envy you having that profound and rare text. I know how precious and deep some
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 2, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            Joel I found both posts extemely rich. I understand your frustration. I
            really envy you having that profound and rare text. I know how precious and
            deep some of the researchers have delved into the American Spirit. You and
            Stephen, along with others you mentioned, "Other America" etc, are full of
            riches. Not that the whole world has interest in our little navels over in
            the Far West.

            One thing that caught my eye, was the ability the Native American and the
            West had toward....this is hard to describe, but it was something and is
            something like, observing in the will an impulse or idea. The Native
            American as a type seemed to be able to hold onto an I-inner will perception
            and move it through to deed in a very Individual-Saturn warmed manner.

            When we see the inventiveness and inventions of the West, we see this
            impulse of grasping deed, idea, will impulse and following it out, either
            through technology or as from earlier cultural impulses, a Native American
            acting in unison with Earth and Sky and the Mother. There is a style, a kind
            of warmed perception that has drifted out of its intimacy with the whole in
            modern America. A kind of deep down severed from the Warmth of the I AM
            intimacy, that a Native American appeared to sustain.

            Early in my playwright days, I felt this intimate kernel, idea field that
            brought my I Am on course with my destiny by the intimacy and action of the
            deed. Creativity and the roots of the I AM force, where we catch - like
            catching a breeze in sailing, you sense the breeze and you move your craft
            to catch this breeze, you act in conjunction with the elements- this inner
            intimacy with perception of the I AM and the Artist, Scientist, inventor
            sometimes appears in the pre-occupation and focus of energies. A studio, a
            lab, or unfolding forces of an idea, like that of Bill Gates reveals
            something that today tends to over-ride social relationships. Nursing an
            idea into birth, an invention or something like an obsession or obsessive
            compulsive focus...as we see some Artist like Michael Angelo struggling with
            his demons and his task, reveals something to me.

            Ideas and will streams either catch people and bring their Specialized
            Interest and focus into some very pragmatic reason or a corporation or the
            military see some key trigger in the idea... and this at times becomes less
            warm. It can even grow cold without the kind of resonating heart field that
            seems always under fire, as one wrestles with the practical profit or
            usefulness or uselessness of something that has been defined by outer
            cultural events as wedded to profit or not. To do things, as Tolstory might
            say, the anti-dote to the west of doing Nothing.. Nothing that isn't warmed
            and rooted in the soul life and felt as a tug of the I Am. America has found
            its way to define what arises in the depths of the will as important or
            unimportant and we all live with that. But the Native American, I felt,
            still grasped his important perception of action and deed, with deeper
            intimacy.

            Granted we would enter the Philosophy of Freedom here; we would enter into
            what sort of indications in the will that have moved America and the West to
            wrestle with what Steiner described as death forces. Where the Saturn warmth
            of the I AM still held this intimacy, it seems tarnished and tainted by
            other forces of will and cultural perception that cripple young people, that
            derail the quiet sensing of what is Warm to the individual and not the
            Techno benediction of Useful. Pragmatic. The amazing distractions and far
            flung obscuring in individuals from sensing their true inner North is
            something that Native Americans, aside from drinking and addictions that
            offered a derailment of the warmth of soul and confused the navigation of
            the I Am, used to exist without destractions. The Native American culture
            appears to feel time differently and the American Impulse appears to have to
            account for the sense of Deeds that don't need to show profit exactly..and
            they don't have to have warmth in them.

            Anyways I find it difficult to express because it is a core creative
            submerging, entering, sleeping into the action of the will or feeling the
            warmth or coldness, the pulls against and toward certain impulses that now
            shape not only culture in America but Technology...It's a hard one to lay
            hold of exactly.

            Bradford

            _________________________________________________________________
            MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
            http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
          • elaineupton2001
            Dear Joel, ... coupled with a ... people ... thirty ... his ... without ... Joel, you are one who often writes of the importance of following clear and organic
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 3, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Joel,

              You write in reply to my post:


              >
              > I always find it curious, when I post something brief,
              coupled with a
              > reference to the larger and more detailed work, how it is that
              people
              > feel like they can easily set the matter aside without striving to
              > encounter the original work.
              >
              > All I gave of Morey's work was a couple of lines of something
              thirty
              > pages long, and which included references to how he had arrived at
              his
              > conclusions, what Native Peoples he had met and so forth. Yet,
              without
              > batting an eye you dismissed the conclusions of this work.


              Joel, you are one who often writes of the importance of following
              clear and organic thinking processes. I find what you write above is
              not an example of a clear and organic living thinking process.

              You also often write of people's views being colored by sympathies
              and antipathies. Perhaps you teach, like many of us, what is
              important for you to learn.

              You also say that it might have occured to me I could make a deeper
              examination of the problem I might "rather than think [I} could
              immediately form a judgement and arrive at the truth."

              This is an example of how in my view you do not think or read
              clearly, for nowhere in my posts on this thread will you find
              evidence of my having felt I have arrived at the truth.

              It is not "without batting an eye" that I dismiss the conclusions of
              Moreley's work, yet I wonder if--IF--without batting an eye, you
              dismiss so much of what I said to you in this last and other posts
              because, in fact, while you say many things that are important, in my
              view, and often say them clearly and forcefully, in my view, there is
              much in *the heart* and core of my recent posts that you in your
              recent replies ignore or do not address.

              Do you enjoy the position of being the teacher, the lecturerer, and
              having, as you once called them, "fans"? Neither you nor Mr. Moreley
              (so far) stand as experts to me on the subject of the "soul of Native
              America". I do not dismiss what you say or what he says, but rather
              raise doubts, clearly stated in my posts. Also, I find riches in what
              you say (and often tell you so), but also I find things to question
              and cast doubt upon. I am not a "fan." I respect you more than to be
              a "fan", and I will not accept what you or Mr. Moreley say without
              question if the question arises, and if disagreement arises, I will
              say so. This does not mean I think I have arrived at some final
              truth. So, maybe you might read clearly and practice what you preach
              about clear thinking and moving beyond antipathies and sympathies, if
              that is needed.

              I realize that there is much more you say in your letter, but your
              opening paragraphs are ones I have attempted to address because they
              permeate the rest of your post.

              Thank you for your offerings, ones that always are helpful to me, one
              way or another, very helpful.

              Blessings,
              elaine
            • elaineupton2001
              Dear Joel, The second two-thirds or so (smile) of your post where you ask many questions of soul qualities of races and groups, of how anthroposophists
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 3, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Joel,

                The second two-thirds or so (smile) of your post where you ask many
                questions of "soul" qualities of races and groups, of how
                anthroposophists address these, and so on are questions important to
                me, as to you. Here and there in your questioning you take on what
                for me is, as I already implied in my last post, a lecturing tone and
                suggest that I might study more, without even knowing anything about
                what I have studied or where I might be coming from. There is a
                certain presumptuousness, in my view.

                In any case, the questions themselves are important to me, and I have
                been pursuing many of them for most of my life.

                Blessings,
                elaine
              • Joel Wendt
                Dear Elaine, Sorry for the tone. I rather have some passion about this then not, and don t expect perfection of myself or you (although I do expect it of
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 3, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Elaine,

                  Sorry for the tone. I rather have some passion about this then not,
                  and don't expect perfection of myself or you (although I do expect it of
                  Starman and lightwhatever.)

                  If I was presumptuous of your search and work, again I am sorry. We
                  don't really know much about each other through this medium, do we.

                  warm regards,
                  joel

                  On Tue, 2003-06-03 at 18:08, elaineupton2001 wrote:
                  > Dear Joel,
                  >
                  > The second two-thirds or so (smile) of your post where you ask many
                  > questions of "soul" qualities of races and groups, of how
                  > anthroposophists address these, and so on are questions important to
                  > me, as to you. Here and there in your questioning you take on what
                  > for me is, as I already implied in my last post, a lecturing tone and
                  > suggest that I might study more, without even knowing anything about
                  > what I have studied or where I might be coming from. There is a
                  > certain presumptuousness, in my view.
                  >
                  > In any case, the questions themselves are important to me, and I have
                  > been pursuing many of them for most of my life.
                  >
                  > Blessings,
                  > elaine
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy
                  > Unsubscribe:
                  > anthroposophy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > List owner: anthroposophy-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • elaineupton2001
                  Dear Joel, Thanks for writing again. I agree that we do not really know each other, and this medium provides its own challenges in that regard, for sure!
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 4, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Joel,

                    Thanks for writing again. I agree that we do not really know each
                    other, and this medium provides its own challenges in that regard,
                    for sure!

                    ((Yes, I, too, expect perfection, not from myself, of course, but
                    from those stellar beings--Lightsearcher and Starman----smile))

                    We share the passion for the subject of Native America and other
                    groups and how the souls of peoples express wisdom and can address
                    concerns of anthroposophy and Threefolding. Thank you.

                    A few weeks ago I was in Hopi Land (mainly in Second Mesa, but also
                    in Keams Canyon), which is about 1/2 days drive from here. Being
                    there, also after being in Navajo and Apache country and what I call
                    Georgia O'Keeffe country, was so meaningful to me, and I do not yet
                    even know how to express all of that in conventional prose. ((I did
                    write a short story, which has been sent, in a collection of stories
                    I wrote on the character of places, to a publisher.)) I am a writer
                    of poetry and of stories, and perhaps I express myself better in the
                    medium of what is called poetry and "literary fiction"
                    (although "fiction" is a misleading term, I feel).

                    It seems I do express myself poorly sometimes on this list, and I do
                    want you to know that I was not dismissing Mr. Moreley (but
                    attempting to question something), and also a hard copy of his work
                    is likely to soon be in my possession (smile).

                    By the way, on the subject of anthroposophy in relation to Native
                    America, African-Americans, Africans,the geography of America and
                    more, our former listmate, Stephen Clarke, who also has a passion for
                    these threads, and who lives near me here in Santa Fe, has sent an
                    announcement of an upcoming August event outside Detroit, an
                    annoucement you may already have, but if not, here is the gist of it
                    (as I understand it). --Well, on second thought: others on this list
                    also may also be interested, so maybe I'd better send it under a
                    separate subject heading in case some are not reading this.

                    Blessings,
                    elaine
                  • Joel Wendt
                    Dear Elaine, Fortune willing, I should by around the first week or so of August, finally be permanently out there in the Southwest with you and Stephen and
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 5, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Elaine,

                      Fortune willing, I should by around the first week or so of August,
                      finally be permanently out there in the Southwest with you and Stephen
                      and others, as I am moving to Prescott Arizona to live near my youngest
                      (she of 15, with nose ring, going on 35).

                      My last visit to Hopi Land, that providence allowed, was over Easter
                      weekend of 1985, and except for the horrible heat of the summers, I very
                      much look forward to returning to this quite remarkable area of not only
                      the Americas, but the Planet as well.

                      I know of the conference, but I am glad you have told the list. I
                      would like to go, but all the aspects of my move are up in the air, and
                      I can't yet make any concrete plans.

                      warm regards,
                      joel

                      On Wed, 2003-06-04 at 18:08, elaineupton2001 wrote:
                      > Dear Joel,
                      >
                      > Thanks for writing again. I agree that we do not really know each
                      > other, and this medium provides its own challenges in that regard,
                      > for sure!
                      >
                      > ((Yes, I, too, expect perfection, not from myself, of course, but
                      > from those stellar beings--Lightsearcher and Starman----smile))
                      >
                      > We share the passion for the subject of Native America and other
                      > groups and how the souls of peoples express wisdom and can address
                      > concerns of anthroposophy and Threefolding. Thank you.
                      >
                      > A few weeks ago I was in Hopi Land (mainly in Second Mesa, but also
                      > in Keams Canyon), which is about 1/2 days drive from here. Being
                      > there, also after being in Navajo and Apache country and what I call
                      > Georgia O'Keeffe country, was so meaningful to me, and I do not yet
                      > even know how to express all of that in conventional prose. ((I did
                      > write a short story, which has been sent, in a collection of stories
                      > I wrote on the character of places, to a publisher.)) I am a writer
                      > of poetry and of stories, and perhaps I express myself better in the
                      > medium of what is called poetry and "literary fiction"
                      > (although "fiction" is a misleading term, I feel).
                      >
                      > It seems I do express myself poorly sometimes on this list, and I do
                      > want you to know that I was not dismissing Mr. Moreley (but
                      > attempting to question something), and also a hard copy of his work
                      > is likely to soon be in my possession (smile).
                      >
                      > By the way, on the subject of anthroposophy in relation to Native
                      > America, African-Americans, Africans,the geography of America and
                      > more, our former listmate, Stephen Clarke, who also has a passion for
                      > these threads, and who lives near me here in Santa Fe, has sent an
                      > announcement of an upcoming August event outside Detroit, an
                      > annoucement you may already have, but if not, here is the gist of it
                      > (as I understand it). --Well, on second thought: others on this list
                      > also may also be interested, so maybe I'd better send it under a
                      > separate subject heading in case some are not reading this.
                      >
                      > Blessings,
                      > elaine
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy
                      > Unsubscribe:
                      > anthroposophy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > List owner: anthroposophy-owner@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                    • elaineupton2001
                      Wow-wee! Wonderful that you are returning west, now Southwest, dear Joel! Maybe we (you, Stephen, Martha Keltiz, who else?--) can stir up this red dirt here
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 5, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Wow-wee! Wonderful that you are returning west, now Southwest, dear
                        Joel! Maybe we (you, Stephen, Martha Keltiz, who else?--) can stir up
                        this red dirt here and ride (or walk, or fly?) right up on top of one
                        of these mesas and look out over this great land and join the Natives
                        in a real Pow-Wow and sit with them in circle and talk about how the
                        various spiritual streams meet in this great land!--That could be a
                        continuation, possibly, of whatever happens at the Detroit event
                        ("Journey into the Heart of the New America") in August.

                        Far-fetched? (smile)

                        Blessings,
                        elaine
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.