Re: Joel, Europe&America&Threefolding
- Hello Joel and all interested,
Joel, thanks for your reply. Even if my question to you was
imprecisely worded, you have responded well, so that fruitful
discussion is possible.
>life of the
> The question can be asked is what is the nature of the soul
> native peoples, and those who are of "foreign" descent, but are bornand
> here (leaving aside the soul life of those who are born elsewhere
> then represent the first migration of a soul life originating inanother
> geographical locale).****************
Yes, well put, and an important (essential) question if we are to be
true to our destinies here in this land.
> I have at hand a small pamphlet, written from a lecture given
> originally at the Waldorf School at Adelphi University, by
> Morey in 1961 called "American Indians and our way of life".((snip . . . ))
> Here is what I wrote in "Song of the Grandfathers*: real
> (wisdom), and the redemption of social and political existencewhich
> (civilization)", at http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/sggfr.html
> "Mr. Morey writes: that, that aspect of the American Character,
> once having an idea is impatient to act upon it, has more kinshipwith
> the Indian, than with the European; that the European came herelooking
> for individual freedom, only later aspiring toward a democraticmuch
> government -democracy being an essential of Indian cultures (not so
> as an idea, but more as the actual way of practice); that the kindof
> competition carried on in business and exempliefied by team sportshas
> its origin in the American Indian, there are no European roots toteam
> sports; that our natural generosity is not an European trait, butone
> found solely among the Indian in the many traditions of the Give-away;
> that the many struggles for freedom of women has arisen stronger inachieved
> America than in Europe, mirroring in its goal what was already
> for women in many Indian societies; and that the impulse to form********************
> confederations owes its inspiration to the Indian.
I find this interesting, for sure, and am not sure that I see eye to
eye with Mr. Morely on some points.
No European roots to team sports? Is this a fact? Maybe so. Maybe...
But EVEN if it is so, it does not automatically follow that
the "American" way (generally) of being "impatient" to act is the way
of the natives. First off, there are many different natives (yes, all
have common traits,especially as regards their relationship to Earth
and beings of Earth as living "peoples", but there are also vast
differences among them).
I have lived with Natives (Wampanoags in Massachusetts) and presently
live in the southwest in neighborhoods among, and work with (through
my partner) various groups--Navajo, Mescalero Apache, Jicarilla
Apache, Tewa Pueblos, et al. ((As for the matter of my questionable
and varied blood lines, I won't go into that now, except to say that
as a student of spiritual science, I seek development beyond that
stuck in blood lines; yet know that the matter of blood lines is not
entirely to be dismissed, but that is a complex subject.))--My point
is that my experience and, I trust, grounded imagination of Native
peoples does not (so far, and I am still open, but so far does not)
show me that the "American impatience" for action is a native
quality. Au contraire!
My experience, and, I trust, my imagination, lead me to different
views, though I am still open.
There is a tradition of "warrior culture", but that is only one
aspect of native cultures. There is the culture of longsufferingness,
of patience, of intimate relationship with the land, one that
requires long listening to the land and all beings ("peoples") of the
land. There is the tradition of sitting in circle, patiently
listening to stories, passing the "talking stick", something I have
done many times. There a long process often occurs, and consensus is
reached (this is not a process of agressive campaigning, quick
voting, and following a result derived at from count of a superficial
Yes, many natives have taken on the ways of the dominant culture, but
within them still live many of the traditional ways of consensus
making, patient listening, and so on.
(The AIM, aggressive American Indian Movement, harkens to a kind
of "warrior culture", but this is only one aspect of native
For the rest, Mr. Morely's ideas about the Iroquois and democracy, I
will also have more to say, but must exit the computer now. I'm sorry
for ending abruptly.
- Well, I am here again at the computer, dear Joel. I ended my last
post rather abruptly.
There are many things in your own post that I agree with, but I did
want to point to the matter of "impatience" as a kind of native
quality as questionable, at least.
As for Hopi Prophecy, Sun Mysteries (anthroposophic offerings) and
Saturn Mysteries (native american offerings), and Stephen Clarke's
work, and the references to all this in your post, I find many riches
For now, I would just say that the European descended Americans
(many, not all) have not yet learned the way of intimacy with Earth
(see the Hopi origins story,a nd many such native stories that show
more relationship to Earth).
- Dear Elaine,
I always find it curious, when I post something brief, coupled with a
reference to the larger and more detailed work, how it is that people
feel like they can easily set the matter aside without striving to
encounter the original work.
All I gave of Morey's work was a couple of lines of something thirty
pages long, and which included references to how he had arrived at his
conclusions, what Native Peoples he had met and so forth. Yet, without
batting an eye you dismissed the conclusions of this work.
It also might have occurred to you, to on your own work at a deeper
examination of the problem/question, rather then think you could so
immediately form a judgment and arrive at the truth. Morey had given a
lot of time to this, and I think it should not be dismissed in quite the
off hand way that you did.
You did say: "My experience, and, I trust, my imagination, lead me to
different views, though I am still open."
This is, after all, a very important question. Let me put it in
Where are the roots of the American Soul? Is there such a thing, that
is do Americans (those born in the United States) have in common various
characteristics in the same way that the French might, or the Japanese?
If they do, what are these characteristics? Having elaborated such
characteristics, are they akin to another people's characteristics? For
example, are native born citizens of the United States (excluding Native
Americans), more like their physical ancestors in these general
characteristics (Europeans, Asians, etc), or more like the aboriginal
peoples here? If a change arises, in which the characteristics become
more like the aboriginal peoples, in what generations does it appear?
What is the role of the evolution of consciousness with regard to this?
Could it be that Native Americans are the earliest iteration of what is
to become the "American Soul"? Perhaps it is more accurate to see these
soul characteristics as themselves evolving over time, yet still
appreciate their essential relatedness, as against thinking that the
American Soul is derivative of European or other people's soul
characteristics? If we can come to knowledge of this kind, of what use
is it to us? What do we in fact know, if we determine our general soul
characteristics and/or whether these are more related to the aboriginal
peoples here than to any other peoples? Does this help us understand
better our future? May it help us understand better how to relate to
the Native Peoples? What are the implications of such conclusions for
how the Anthroposophical Society in America conducts itself? You
mentioned the different Nations - do you mean to suggest that the
aboriginal peoples have no collective soul characteristics? Are such
variations (assuming they exist) as wide as the differences between
modern Americans and say the English?
Other material to study: The Other America: the West in the Light of
Spiritual Science, by Carl Stigma; America and Americanism, by F.W.
Zelma's van Emotion; and, America's Way: The Tasks Ahead, by Dietrich V.
Granted it might be difficult to find these works, and to assimilate
their offerings, but don't you think some effort needs to be expended
given the significance of the question?
For me this is a field of interest in which I have labored for many
years in the company of a number of other researchers. While I urge you
to remain within your own thinking about these questions, I also
encourage you to withhold judgment until your experience is perhaps
richer. Are you are impatient to act :-)?
Possibly you confuse differences of culture, for differences of soul?
This in itself then launches another dozen questions easily, doesn't
it. If culture is more like the clothes we wear and the social rules we
follow and the ideas we hold, what then are soul characteristics and how
do we perceive those against the background noise of cultural
differences? Which is causally related to what? Do soul
characteristics determine cultural differences? What about environment?
I have said elsewhere, for example, that the American Soul is more
oriented to the outer world, and responding to that, while the Central
European Soul (please excuse the generalizations) is more related to the
inner world. As a consequence, with regard to social questions, the
Central European tends to want to incarnate an Ideal - that is they
first think the Ideal and then try to conform the social to that. The
American, on the other hand, tends to see a problem and work to solve it
it the most practical and direct way, such that any Ideal element is
incidental. The Ideal for the American is only valid to the extent that
it works (pragmatism), while for the Central European the Ideal is the
measure by which the social is evaluated.
The result, to be as concrete as possible, can be seen in a
conversation that I participated in within anthroposophical circles here
in New Hampshire. We were discussing current events, and especially
9/11, and how threefolding might relate to this. The leading Central
European "expert" on the social, who has lived here for perhaps a fifth
of his life (now in his 60's), referred again and again to the need to
change America to conform in some degree to this Ideal picture he had of
threefolding. I, on the other hand, was of the mind that such changes
as could be accomplished had to be rooted in what was itself already
emerging, and that what one needed to do was work with that. One could
still "see" threefolding, but it was essential to see it arriving not
from the Ideal downward, but from the soul's natural impulses outward.
In another context, I have been working for a long time now with a
group that takes its inspiration from the Transcendentalists. We have,
after a long effort, finally begun to have "conversations" in which the
spirit could be present, an activity I believe was and is well
understood by Native Peoples. Yet, when I referred to this relationship
between "Alcottian conversation", Native conversation, and Goethean
conversation on another list, I was pounced upon by an English
anthroposophist, who asserted that America's original peoples could have
in no way had such conversations, because they were bound up in a group
soul based social life.
I could go on and on, but all I really wanted to do was to suggest how
important these questions are that you are asking, and again to
encourage you to enrich the resources from which you draw on as you work
- Joel I found both posts extemely rich. I understand your frustration. I
really envy you having that profound and rare text. I know how precious and
deep some of the researchers have delved into the American Spirit. You and
Stephen, along with others you mentioned, "Other America" etc, are full of
riches. Not that the whole world has interest in our little navels over in
the Far West.
One thing that caught my eye, was the ability the Native American and the
West had toward....this is hard to describe, but it was something and is
something like, observing in the will an impulse or idea. The Native
American as a type seemed to be able to hold onto an I-inner will perception
and move it through to deed in a very Individual-Saturn warmed manner.
When we see the inventiveness and inventions of the West, we see this
impulse of grasping deed, idea, will impulse and following it out, either
through technology or as from earlier cultural impulses, a Native American
acting in unison with Earth and Sky and the Mother. There is a style, a kind
of warmed perception that has drifted out of its intimacy with the whole in
modern America. A kind of deep down severed from the Warmth of the I AM
intimacy, that a Native American appeared to sustain.
Early in my playwright days, I felt this intimate kernel, idea field that
brought my I Am on course with my destiny by the intimacy and action of the
deed. Creativity and the roots of the I AM force, where we catch - like
catching a breeze in sailing, you sense the breeze and you move your craft
to catch this breeze, you act in conjunction with the elements- this inner
intimacy with perception of the I AM and the Artist, Scientist, inventor
sometimes appears in the pre-occupation and focus of energies. A studio, a
lab, or unfolding forces of an idea, like that of Bill Gates reveals
something that today tends to over-ride social relationships. Nursing an
idea into birth, an invention or something like an obsession or obsessive
compulsive focus...as we see some Artist like Michael Angelo struggling with
his demons and his task, reveals something to me.
Ideas and will streams either catch people and bring their Specialized
Interest and focus into some very pragmatic reason or a corporation or the
military see some key trigger in the idea... and this at times becomes less
warm. It can even grow cold without the kind of resonating heart field that
seems always under fire, as one wrestles with the practical profit or
usefulness or uselessness of something that has been defined by outer
cultural events as wedded to profit or not. To do things, as Tolstory might
say, the anti-dote to the west of doing Nothing.. Nothing that isn't warmed
and rooted in the soul life and felt as a tug of the I Am. America has found
its way to define what arises in the depths of the will as important or
unimportant and we all live with that. But the Native American, I felt,
still grasped his important perception of action and deed, with deeper
Granted we would enter the Philosophy of Freedom here; we would enter into
what sort of indications in the will that have moved America and the West to
wrestle with what Steiner described as death forces. Where the Saturn warmth
of the I AM still held this intimacy, it seems tarnished and tainted by
other forces of will and cultural perception that cripple young people, that
derail the quiet sensing of what is Warm to the individual and not the
Techno benediction of Useful. Pragmatic. The amazing distractions and far
flung obscuring in individuals from sensing their true inner North is
something that Native Americans, aside from drinking and addictions that
offered a derailment of the warmth of soul and confused the navigation of
the I Am, used to exist without destractions. The Native American culture
appears to feel time differently and the American Impulse appears to have to
account for the sense of Deeds that don't need to show profit exactly..and
they don't have to have warmth in them.
Anyways I find it difficult to express because it is a core creative
submerging, entering, sleeping into the action of the will or feeling the
warmth or coldness, the pulls against and toward certain impulses that now
shape not only culture in America but Technology...It's a hard one to lay
hold of exactly.
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
- Dear Joel,
You write in reply to my post:
>coupled with a
> I always find it curious, when I post something brief,
> reference to the larger and more detailed work, how it is thatpeople
> feel like they can easily set the matter aside without striving tothirty
> encounter the original work.
> All I gave of Morey's work was a couple of lines of something
> pages long, and which included references to how he had arrived athis
> conclusions, what Native Peoples he had met and so forth. Yet,without
> batting an eye you dismissed the conclusions of this work.Joel, you are one who often writes of the importance of following
clear and organic thinking processes. I find what you write above is
not an example of a clear and organic living thinking process.
You also often write of people's views being colored by sympathies
and antipathies. Perhaps you teach, like many of us, what is
important for you to learn.
You also say that it might have occured to me I could make a deeper
examination of the problem I might "rather than think [I} could
immediately form a judgement and arrive at the truth."
This is an example of how in my view you do not think or read
clearly, for nowhere in my posts on this thread will you find
evidence of my having felt I have arrived at the truth.
It is not "without batting an eye" that I dismiss the conclusions of
Moreley's work, yet I wonder if--IF--without batting an eye, you
dismiss so much of what I said to you in this last and other posts
because, in fact, while you say many things that are important, in my
view, and often say them clearly and forcefully, in my view, there is
much in *the heart* and core of my recent posts that you in your
recent replies ignore or do not address.
Do you enjoy the position of being the teacher, the lecturerer, and
having, as you once called them, "fans"? Neither you nor Mr. Moreley
(so far) stand as experts to me on the subject of the "soul of Native
America". I do not dismiss what you say or what he says, but rather
raise doubts, clearly stated in my posts. Also, I find riches in what
you say (and often tell you so), but also I find things to question
and cast doubt upon. I am not a "fan." I respect you more than to be
a "fan", and I will not accept what you or Mr. Moreley say without
question if the question arises, and if disagreement arises, I will
say so. This does not mean I think I have arrived at some final
truth. So, maybe you might read clearly and practice what you preach
about clear thinking and moving beyond antipathies and sympathies, if
that is needed.
I realize that there is much more you say in your letter, but your
opening paragraphs are ones I have attempted to address because they
permeate the rest of your post.
Thank you for your offerings, ones that always are helpful to me, one
way or another, very helpful.
- Dear Joel,
The second two-thirds or so (smile) of your post where you ask many
questions of "soul" qualities of races and groups, of how
anthroposophists address these, and so on are questions important to
me, as to you. Here and there in your questioning you take on what
for me is, as I already implied in my last post, a lecturing tone and
suggest that I might study more, without even knowing anything about
what I have studied or where I might be coming from. There is a
certain presumptuousness, in my view.
In any case, the questions themselves are important to me, and I have
been pursuing many of them for most of my life.
- Dear Elaine,
Sorry for the tone. I rather have some passion about this then not,
and don't expect perfection of myself or you (although I do expect it of
Starman and lightwhatever.)
If I was presumptuous of your search and work, again I am sorry. We
don't really know much about each other through this medium, do we.
On Tue, 2003-06-03 at 18:08, elaineupton2001 wrote:
> Dear Joel,
> The second two-thirds or so (smile) of your post where you ask many
> questions of "soul" qualities of races and groups, of how
> anthroposophists address these, and so on are questions important to
> me, as to you. Here and there in your questioning you take on what
> for me is, as I already implied in my last post, a lecturing tone and
> suggest that I might study more, without even knowing anything about
> what I have studied or where I might be coming from. There is a
> certain presumptuousness, in my view.
> In any case, the questions themselves are important to me, and I have
> been pursuing many of them for most of my life.
> List owner: firstname.lastname@example.org
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
- Dear Joel,
Thanks for writing again. I agree that we do not really know each
other, and this medium provides its own challenges in that regard,
((Yes, I, too, expect perfection, not from myself, of course, but
from those stellar beings--Lightsearcher and Starman----smile))
We share the passion for the subject of Native America and other
groups and how the souls of peoples express wisdom and can address
concerns of anthroposophy and Threefolding. Thank you.
A few weeks ago I was in Hopi Land (mainly in Second Mesa, but also
in Keams Canyon), which is about 1/2 days drive from here. Being
there, also after being in Navajo and Apache country and what I call
Georgia O'Keeffe country, was so meaningful to me, and I do not yet
even know how to express all of that in conventional prose. ((I did
write a short story, which has been sent, in a collection of stories
I wrote on the character of places, to a publisher.)) I am a writer
of poetry and of stories, and perhaps I express myself better in the
medium of what is called poetry and "literary fiction"
(although "fiction" is a misleading term, I feel).
It seems I do express myself poorly sometimes on this list, and I do
want you to know that I was not dismissing Mr. Moreley (but
attempting to question something), and also a hard copy of his work
is likely to soon be in my possession (smile).
By the way, on the subject of anthroposophy in relation to Native
America, African-Americans, Africans,the geography of America and
more, our former listmate, Stephen Clarke, who also has a passion for
these threads, and who lives near me here in Santa Fe, has sent an
announcement of an upcoming August event outside Detroit, an
annoucement you may already have, but if not, here is the gist of it
(as I understand it). --Well, on second thought: others on this list
also may also be interested, so maybe I'd better send it under a
separate subject heading in case some are not reading this.
- Dear Elaine,
Fortune willing, I should by around the first week or so of August,
finally be permanently out there in the Southwest with you and Stephen
and others, as I am moving to Prescott Arizona to live near my youngest
(she of 15, with nose ring, going on 35).
My last visit to Hopi Land, that providence allowed, was over Easter
weekend of 1985, and except for the horrible heat of the summers, I very
much look forward to returning to this quite remarkable area of not only
the Americas, but the Planet as well.
I know of the conference, but I am glad you have told the list. I
would like to go, but all the aspects of my move are up in the air, and
I can't yet make any concrete plans.
On Wed, 2003-06-04 at 18:08, elaineupton2001 wrote:
> Dear Joel,
> Thanks for writing again. I agree that we do not really know each
> other, and this medium provides its own challenges in that regard,
> for sure!
> ((Yes, I, too, expect perfection, not from myself, of course, but
> from those stellar beings--Lightsearcher and Starman----smile))
> We share the passion for the subject of Native America and other
> groups and how the souls of peoples express wisdom and can address
> concerns of anthroposophy and Threefolding. Thank you.
> A few weeks ago I was in Hopi Land (mainly in Second Mesa, but also
> in Keams Canyon), which is about 1/2 days drive from here. Being
> there, also after being in Navajo and Apache country and what I call
> Georgia O'Keeffe country, was so meaningful to me, and I do not yet
> even know how to express all of that in conventional prose. ((I did
> write a short story, which has been sent, in a collection of stories
> I wrote on the character of places, to a publisher.)) I am a writer
> of poetry and of stories, and perhaps I express myself better in the
> medium of what is called poetry and "literary fiction"
> (although "fiction" is a misleading term, I feel).
> It seems I do express myself poorly sometimes on this list, and I do
> want you to know that I was not dismissing Mr. Moreley (but
> attempting to question something), and also a hard copy of his work
> is likely to soon be in my possession (smile).
> By the way, on the subject of anthroposophy in relation to Native
> America, African-Americans, Africans,the geography of America and
> more, our former listmate, Stephen Clarke, who also has a passion for
> these threads, and who lives near me here in Santa Fe, has sent an
> announcement of an upcoming August event outside Detroit, an
> annoucement you may already have, but if not, here is the gist of it
> (as I understand it). --Well, on second thought: others on this list
> also may also be interested, so maybe I'd better send it under a
> separate subject heading in case some are not reading this.
> List owner: email@example.com
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
- Wow-wee! Wonderful that you are returning west, now Southwest, dear
Joel! Maybe we (you, Stephen, Martha Keltiz, who else?--) can stir up
this red dirt here and ride (or walk, or fly?) right up on top of one
of these mesas and look out over this great land and join the Natives
in a real Pow-Wow and sit with them in circle and talk about how the
various spiritual streams meet in this great land!--That could be a
continuation, possibly, of whatever happens at the Detroit event
("Journey into the Heart of the New America") in August.