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Joel, Europe&America&Threefolding

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  • elaineupton2001
    Hello Joel and all interested, This is my third post on threefolding today. Hmmm... I am reading and pondering Joel s essay in the latest issue of The Southern
    Message 1 of 12 , May 31 1:02 PM
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      Hello Joel and all interested,

      This is my third post on threefolding today. Hmmm...

      I am reading and pondering Joel's essay in the latest issue of The
      Southern Cross Review (SCR), and have a question for you, Joel:

      What about the Native American soul in "America"? You write of
      whether Threefolding in certain ways is more amenable to Europe or
      America, and you characterize each, but there is something different,
      perhaps, about Natives here. The "problem solving", outward bound
      activity of "Americans" does not, perhaps, take into account how we
      are here among natives (few though they be) and are perhaps, as Wm.
      McDonough pointed out, looking at the question: "When do we all
      become Native to this land?"

      I have to leave now, and realize the question is not quite fully
      formulated, but perhaps there is something here you can work with. ???

      Blessings,
      elaine
    • Joel Wendt
      Dear Elaine, As you might have guessed, I find a lack or precision in your question that leads me to being very unsure as to how to answer it. On the chance
      Message 2 of 12 , May 31 6:26 PM
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        Dear Elaine,

        As you might have guessed, I find a lack or precision in your question
        that leads me to being very unsure as to how to answer it. On the
        chance that I might answer it, I will say some general things.

        We have on the one hand the Americas as a "geographic space", and on
        the other the Saturn Mysteries as held to by the aboriginal peoples
        here, either as tradition, or among some, as current systems of
        initiation. Interjected into this geographical space and its original
        "stewards" then comes an "invasion" of mostly Europeans, but later
        representatives of pretty much all the Peoples of the Earth, so that
        today I write of "Americans", at least as far as the United States is
        concerned, as the People of Peoples.

        What at one time was conceived as a melting pot, is now better
        understood as a mosaic.

        The question can be asked is what is the nature of the soul life of the
        native peoples, and those who are of "foreign" descent, but are born
        here (leaving aside the soul life of those who are born elsewhere and
        then represent the first migration of a soul life originating in another
        geographical locale).

        I have at hand a small pamphlet, written from a lecture given
        originally at the Waldorf School at Adelphi University, by Sylvester M.
        Morey in 1961 called "American Indians and our way of life". In it is
        elaborated in some detail how those souls now born in America, whose
        bodies were originally of European descent, - these souls (remember that
        the soul is formed according to needs with respect to geography,
        language and culture, and as a mediating reality in between the "spirit"
        and the physical material world) share the same general characteristics
        as the native peoples. Being of the same land, we are similar in soul
        (though not in spirit, where we are all individuals).

        Here is what I wrote in "Song of the Grandfathers*: real wealth
        (wisdom), and the redemption of social and political existence
        (civilization)", at http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/sggfr.html

        "Mr. Morey writes: that, that aspect of the American Character, which
        once having an idea is impatient to act upon it, has more kinship with
        the Indian, than with the European; that the European came here looking
        for individual freedom, only later aspiring toward a democratic
        government -democracy being an essential of Indian cultures (not so much
        as an idea, but more as the actual way of practice); that the kind of
        competition carried on in business and exempliefied by team sports has
        its origin in the American Indian, there are no European roots to team
        sports; that our natural generosity is not an European trait, but one
        found solely among the Indian in the many traditions of the Give-away;
        that the many struggles for freedom of women has arisen stronger in
        America than in Europe, mirroring in its goal what was already achieved
        for women in many Indian societies; and that the impulse to form
        confederations owes its inspiration to the Indian.

        "Morely ends his dissertation with the following, from a speech given by
        Iroquois chief, Canassatego, on July 4th, 1744, at a meeting between
        many colonists and Iroguois: "We have one thing further to say, and that
        is We heartily recommend Union and a Good Agreement between you our
        brethren. Never disagree, but preserve a strict friendship for one
        another, and thereby you as well as we will become the stronger. Our
        wise Forefathers established union and Amity between the Five Nations;
        this has made us formidable. This has given us great weight and
        Authority with our Neighboring Nations. We are a Powerful confederacy,
        and by your observing the same Methods our wise Forefathers have taken,
        you will acquire fresh Strength and Power; therefore, whatever befalls
        you, never fall out with one another.""

        You should understand that I have above given a most simplified
        discussion of what Mr. Morey took 30 pages to express, in some detail,
        and with many examples.

        It takes us in a different direction if we consider the relationship
        between the Saturn Mysteries and the New Sun Mysteries, especially in
        terms of the Hopi Prophecy of the Return of the Elder Brother or the
        True White Brother, which I wrote about in: "The Mystery* of the True
        White Brother - an interpretation of the meaning of the Hopi Prophecy by
        a member of the Elder Brother People" that can be found at:
        http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/eldbr.html

        From this point of view we are looking at two modes or states of being
        in the Evolution of Consciousness, such that the native peoples (those
        who went to the West out of Atlantis) developed a wisdom of the
        integration of the individual and community with nature, while the those
        who went to the East, eventually acquired an "onlooker" relationship to
        nature and to each other, which allowed them to develop a new initiation
        wisdom. The Hopi Prophecy is about the Age (our time) when the wisdom
        of initiation via the New Sun Mysteries (mainly in the form of
        anthroposophy) becomes (or can become) joined to the social wisdom of
        integration maintained by the Saturn Mysteries.

        From the work of Stephen Clarke, I have begun to understand that that
        the Way of Integration (symbolized by the Circle) is under the
        provenance of the Mother, or Divine Feminine, while the Way of
        Initiation (symbolized by the Cross) is under the provenance of the Son.

        So we have on the one hand a general situation of shared soul
        conditions or characteristics, and on the other, at a deeper spiritual
        level, the meeting of two different "missions", as carried in the
        different Mysteries, and which apparently need to somehow "join".

        I hope this has been a help.

        warm regards,
        joel





        On Sat, 2003-05-31 at 16:02, elaineupton2001 wrote:
        > Hello Joel and all interested,
        >
        > This is my third post on threefolding today. Hmmm...
        >
        > I am reading and pondering Joel's essay in the latest issue of The
        > Southern Cross Review (SCR), and have a question for you, Joel:
        >
        > What about the Native American soul in "America"? You write of
        > whether Threefolding in certain ways is more amenable to Europe or
        > America, and you characterize each, but there is something different,
        > perhaps, about Natives here. The "problem solving", outward bound
        > activity of "Americans" does not, perhaps, take into account how we
        > are here among natives (few though they be) and are perhaps, as Wm.
        > McDonough pointed out, looking at the question: "When do we all
        > become Native to this land?"
        >
        > I have to leave now, and realize the question is not quite fully
        > formulated, but perhaps there is something here you can work with. ???
        >
        > Blessings,
        > elaine
        >
        >
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy
        > Unsubscribe:
        > anthroposophy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > List owner: anthroposophy-owner@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      • elaineupton2001
        Hello Joel and all interested, Joel, thanks for your reply. Even if my question to you was imprecisely worded, you have responded well, so that fruitful
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 2, 2003
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          Hello Joel and all interested,

          Joel, thanks for your reply. Even if my question to you was
          imprecisely worded, you have responded well, so that fruitful
          discussion is possible.


          Joel writes:
          >
          > The question can be asked is what is the nature of the soul
          life of the
          > native peoples, and those who are of "foreign" descent, but are born
          > here (leaving aside the soul life of those who are born elsewhere
          and
          > then represent the first migration of a soul life originating in
          another
          > geographical locale).
          ****************

          Yes, well put, and an important (essential) question if we are to be
          true to our destinies here in this land.

          Joel continues:
          >
          > I have at hand a small pamphlet, written from a lecture given
          > originally at the Waldorf School at Adelphi University, by
          Sylvester M.
          > Morey in 1961 called "American Indians and our way of life".
          ((snip . . . ))
          >
          > Here is what I wrote in "Song of the Grandfathers*: real
          wealth
          > (wisdom), and the redemption of social and political existence
          > (civilization)", at http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/sggfr.html
          >
          > "Mr. Morey writes: that, that aspect of the American Character,
          which
          > once having an idea is impatient to act upon it, has more kinship
          with
          > the Indian, than with the European; that the European came here
          looking
          > for individual freedom, only later aspiring toward a democratic
          > government -democracy being an essential of Indian cultures (not so
          much
          > as an idea, but more as the actual way of practice); that the kind
          of
          > competition carried on in business and exempliefied by team sports
          has
          > its origin in the American Indian, there are no European roots to
          team
          > sports; that our natural generosity is not an European trait, but
          one
          > found solely among the Indian in the many traditions of the Give-
          away;
          > that the many struggles for freedom of women has arisen stronger in
          > America than in Europe, mirroring in its goal what was already
          achieved
          > for women in many Indian societies; and that the impulse to form
          > confederations owes its inspiration to the Indian.
          ********************

          I find this interesting, for sure, and am not sure that I see eye to
          eye with Mr. Morely on some points.

          No European roots to team sports? Is this a fact? Maybe so. Maybe...
          But EVEN if it is so, it does not automatically follow that
          the "American" way (generally) of being "impatient" to act is the way
          of the natives. First off, there are many different natives (yes, all
          have common traits,especially as regards their relationship to Earth
          and beings of Earth as living "peoples", but there are also vast
          differences among them).

          I have lived with Natives (Wampanoags in Massachusetts) and presently
          live in the southwest in neighborhoods among, and work with (through
          my partner) various groups--Navajo, Mescalero Apache, Jicarilla
          Apache, Tewa Pueblos, et al. ((As for the matter of my questionable
          and varied blood lines, I won't go into that now, except to say that
          as a student of spiritual science, I seek development beyond that
          stuck in blood lines; yet know that the matter of blood lines is not
          entirely to be dismissed, but that is a complex subject.))--My point
          is that my experience and, I trust, grounded imagination of Native
          peoples does not (so far, and I am still open, but so far does not)
          show me that the "American impatience" for action is a native
          quality. Au contraire!

          My experience, and, I trust, my imagination, lead me to different
          views, though I am still open.

          There is a tradition of "warrior culture", but that is only one
          aspect of native cultures. There is the culture of longsufferingness,
          of patience, of intimate relationship with the land, one that
          requires long listening to the land and all beings ("peoples") of the
          land. There is the tradition of sitting in circle, patiently
          listening to stories, passing the "talking stick", something I have
          done many times. There a long process often occurs, and consensus is
          reached (this is not a process of agressive campaigning, quick
          voting, and following a result derived at from count of a superficial
          majority).

          Yes, many natives have taken on the ways of the dominant culture, but
          within them still live many of the traditional ways of consensus
          making, patient listening, and so on.

          (The AIM, aggressive American Indian Movement, harkens to a kind
          of "warrior culture", but this is only one aspect of native
          cultures.))

          For the rest, Mr. Morely's ideas about the Iroquois and democracy, I
          will also have more to say, but must exit the computer now. I'm sorry
          for ending abruptly.

          Blessings,
          elaine
        • elaineupton2001
          Well, I am here again at the computer, dear Joel. I ended my last post rather abruptly. There are many things in your own post that I agree with, but I did
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 2, 2003
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            Well, I am here again at the computer, dear Joel. I ended my last
            post rather abruptly.

            There are many things in your own post that I agree with, but I did
            want to point to the matter of "impatience" as a kind of native
            quality as questionable, at least.

            As for Hopi Prophecy, Sun Mysteries (anthroposophic offerings) and
            Saturn Mysteries (native american offerings), and Stephen Clarke's
            work, and the references to all this in your post, I find many riches
            here.

            For now, I would just say that the European descended Americans
            (many, not all) have not yet learned the way of intimacy with Earth
            (see the Hopi origins story,a nd many such native stories that show
            more relationship to Earth).

            Blessings,
            elaine

            -
          • Joel Wendt
            Dear Elaine, I always find it curious, when I post something brief, coupled with a reference to the larger and more detailed work, how it is that people feel
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 2, 2003
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              Dear Elaine,

              I always find it curious, when I post something brief, coupled with a
              reference to the larger and more detailed work, how it is that people
              feel like they can easily set the matter aside without striving to
              encounter the original work.

              All I gave of Morey's work was a couple of lines of something thirty
              pages long, and which included references to how he had arrived at his
              conclusions, what Native Peoples he had met and so forth. Yet, without
              batting an eye you dismissed the conclusions of this work.

              It also might have occurred to you, to on your own work at a deeper
              examination of the problem/question, rather then think you could so
              immediately form a judgment and arrive at the truth. Morey had given a
              lot of time to this, and I think it should not be dismissed in quite the
              off hand way that you did.

              You did say: "My experience, and, I trust, my imagination, lead me to
              different views, though I am still open."

              This is, after all, a very important question. Let me put it in
              another form.

              Where are the roots of the American Soul? Is there such a thing, that
              is do Americans (those born in the United States) have in common various
              characteristics in the same way that the French might, or the Japanese?
              If they do, what are these characteristics? Having elaborated such
              characteristics, are they akin to another people's characteristics? For
              example, are native born citizens of the United States (excluding Native
              Americans), more like their physical ancestors in these general
              characteristics (Europeans, Asians, etc), or more like the aboriginal
              peoples here? If a change arises, in which the characteristics become
              more like the aboriginal peoples, in what generations does it appear?
              What is the role of the evolution of consciousness with regard to this?
              Could it be that Native Americans are the earliest iteration of what is
              to become the "American Soul"? Perhaps it is more accurate to see these
              soul characteristics as themselves evolving over time, yet still
              appreciate their essential relatedness, as against thinking that the
              American Soul is derivative of European or other people's soul
              characteristics? If we can come to knowledge of this kind, of what use
              is it to us? What do we in fact know, if we determine our general soul
              characteristics and/or whether these are more related to the aboriginal
              peoples here than to any other peoples? Does this help us understand
              better our future? May it help us understand better how to relate to
              the Native Peoples? What are the implications of such conclusions for
              how the Anthroposophical Society in America conducts itself? You
              mentioned the different Nations - do you mean to suggest that the
              aboriginal peoples have no collective soul characteristics? Are such
              variations (assuming they exist) as wide as the differences between
              modern Americans and say the English?

              Other material to study: The Other America: the West in the Light of
              Spiritual Science, by Carl Stigma; America and Americanism, by F.W.
              Zelma's van Emotion; and, America's Way: The Tasks Ahead, by Dietrich V.
              Austen.

              Granted it might be difficult to find these works, and to assimilate
              their offerings, but don't you think some effort needs to be expended
              given the significance of the question?

              For me this is a field of interest in which I have labored for many
              years in the company of a number of other researchers. While I urge you
              to remain within your own thinking about these questions, I also
              encourage you to withhold judgment until your experience is perhaps
              richer. Are you are impatient to act :-)?

              Possibly you confuse differences of culture, for differences of soul?
              This in itself then launches another dozen questions easily, doesn't
              it. If culture is more like the clothes we wear and the social rules we
              follow and the ideas we hold, what then are soul characteristics and how
              do we perceive those against the background noise of cultural
              differences? Which is causally related to what? Do soul
              characteristics determine cultural differences? What about environment?

              I have said elsewhere, for example, that the American Soul is more
              oriented to the outer world, and responding to that, while the Central
              European Soul (please excuse the generalizations) is more related to the
              inner world. As a consequence, with regard to social questions, the
              Central European tends to want to incarnate an Ideal - that is they
              first think the Ideal and then try to conform the social to that. The
              American, on the other hand, tends to see a problem and work to solve it
              it the most practical and direct way, such that any Ideal element is
              incidental. The Ideal for the American is only valid to the extent that
              it works (pragmatism), while for the Central European the Ideal is the
              measure by which the social is evaluated.

              The result, to be as concrete as possible, can be seen in a
              conversation that I participated in within anthroposophical circles here
              in New Hampshire. We were discussing current events, and especially
              9/11, and how threefolding might relate to this. The leading Central
              European "expert" on the social, who has lived here for perhaps a fifth
              of his life (now in his 60's), referred again and again to the need to
              change America to conform in some degree to this Ideal picture he had of
              threefolding. I, on the other hand, was of the mind that such changes
              as could be accomplished had to be rooted in what was itself already
              emerging, and that what one needed to do was work with that. One could
              still "see" threefolding, but it was essential to see it arriving not
              from the Ideal downward, but from the soul's natural impulses outward.

              In another context, I have been working for a long time now with a
              group that takes its inspiration from the Transcendentalists. We have,
              after a long effort, finally begun to have "conversations" in which the
              spirit could be present, an activity I believe was and is well
              understood by Native Peoples. Yet, when I referred to this relationship
              between "Alcottian conversation", Native conversation, and Goethean
              conversation on another list, I was pounced upon by an English
              anthroposophist, who asserted that America's original peoples could have
              in no way had such conversations, because they were bound up in a group
              soul based social life.

              I could go on and on, but all I really wanted to do was to suggest how
              important these questions are that you are asking, and again to
              encourage you to enrich the resources from which you draw on as you work
              with them.

              warm regards,
              joel
            • Bradford Riley
              Joel I found both posts extemely rich. I understand your frustration. I really envy you having that profound and rare text. I know how precious and deep some
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 2, 2003
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                Joel I found both posts extemely rich. I understand your frustration. I
                really envy you having that profound and rare text. I know how precious and
                deep some of the researchers have delved into the American Spirit. You and
                Stephen, along with others you mentioned, "Other America" etc, are full of
                riches. Not that the whole world has interest in our little navels over in
                the Far West.

                One thing that caught my eye, was the ability the Native American and the
                West had toward....this is hard to describe, but it was something and is
                something like, observing in the will an impulse or idea. The Native
                American as a type seemed to be able to hold onto an I-inner will perception
                and move it through to deed in a very Individual-Saturn warmed manner.

                When we see the inventiveness and inventions of the West, we see this
                impulse of grasping deed, idea, will impulse and following it out, either
                through technology or as from earlier cultural impulses, a Native American
                acting in unison with Earth and Sky and the Mother. There is a style, a kind
                of warmed perception that has drifted out of its intimacy with the whole in
                modern America. A kind of deep down severed from the Warmth of the I AM
                intimacy, that a Native American appeared to sustain.

                Early in my playwright days, I felt this intimate kernel, idea field that
                brought my I Am on course with my destiny by the intimacy and action of the
                deed. Creativity and the roots of the I AM force, where we catch - like
                catching a breeze in sailing, you sense the breeze and you move your craft
                to catch this breeze, you act in conjunction with the elements- this inner
                intimacy with perception of the I AM and the Artist, Scientist, inventor
                sometimes appears in the pre-occupation and focus of energies. A studio, a
                lab, or unfolding forces of an idea, like that of Bill Gates reveals
                something that today tends to over-ride social relationships. Nursing an
                idea into birth, an invention or something like an obsession or obsessive
                compulsive focus...as we see some Artist like Michael Angelo struggling with
                his demons and his task, reveals something to me.

                Ideas and will streams either catch people and bring their Specialized
                Interest and focus into some very pragmatic reason or a corporation or the
                military see some key trigger in the idea... and this at times becomes less
                warm. It can even grow cold without the kind of resonating heart field that
                seems always under fire, as one wrestles with the practical profit or
                usefulness or uselessness of something that has been defined by outer
                cultural events as wedded to profit or not. To do things, as Tolstory might
                say, the anti-dote to the west of doing Nothing.. Nothing that isn't warmed
                and rooted in the soul life and felt as a tug of the I Am. America has found
                its way to define what arises in the depths of the will as important or
                unimportant and we all live with that. But the Native American, I felt,
                still grasped his important perception of action and deed, with deeper
                intimacy.

                Granted we would enter the Philosophy of Freedom here; we would enter into
                what sort of indications in the will that have moved America and the West to
                wrestle with what Steiner described as death forces. Where the Saturn warmth
                of the I AM still held this intimacy, it seems tarnished and tainted by
                other forces of will and cultural perception that cripple young people, that
                derail the quiet sensing of what is Warm to the individual and not the
                Techno benediction of Useful. Pragmatic. The amazing distractions and far
                flung obscuring in individuals from sensing their true inner North is
                something that Native Americans, aside from drinking and addictions that
                offered a derailment of the warmth of soul and confused the navigation of
                the I Am, used to exist without destractions. The Native American culture
                appears to feel time differently and the American Impulse appears to have to
                account for the sense of Deeds that don't need to show profit exactly..and
                they don't have to have warmth in them.

                Anyways I find it difficult to express because it is a core creative
                submerging, entering, sleeping into the action of the will or feeling the
                warmth or coldness, the pulls against and toward certain impulses that now
                shape not only culture in America but Technology...It's a hard one to lay
                hold of exactly.

                Bradford

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              • elaineupton2001
                Dear Joel, ... coupled with a ... people ... thirty ... his ... without ... Joel, you are one who often writes of the importance of following clear and organic
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 3, 2003
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                  Dear Joel,

                  You write in reply to my post:


                  >
                  > I always find it curious, when I post something brief,
                  coupled with a
                  > reference to the larger and more detailed work, how it is that
                  people
                  > feel like they can easily set the matter aside without striving to
                  > encounter the original work.
                  >
                  > All I gave of Morey's work was a couple of lines of something
                  thirty
                  > pages long, and which included references to how he had arrived at
                  his
                  > conclusions, what Native Peoples he had met and so forth. Yet,
                  without
                  > batting an eye you dismissed the conclusions of this work.


                  Joel, you are one who often writes of the importance of following
                  clear and organic thinking processes. I find what you write above is
                  not an example of a clear and organic living thinking process.

                  You also often write of people's views being colored by sympathies
                  and antipathies. Perhaps you teach, like many of us, what is
                  important for you to learn.

                  You also say that it might have occured to me I could make a deeper
                  examination of the problem I might "rather than think [I} could
                  immediately form a judgement and arrive at the truth."

                  This is an example of how in my view you do not think or read
                  clearly, for nowhere in my posts on this thread will you find
                  evidence of my having felt I have arrived at the truth.

                  It is not "without batting an eye" that I dismiss the conclusions of
                  Moreley's work, yet I wonder if--IF--without batting an eye, you
                  dismiss so much of what I said to you in this last and other posts
                  because, in fact, while you say many things that are important, in my
                  view, and often say them clearly and forcefully, in my view, there is
                  much in *the heart* and core of my recent posts that you in your
                  recent replies ignore or do not address.

                  Do you enjoy the position of being the teacher, the lecturerer, and
                  having, as you once called them, "fans"? Neither you nor Mr. Moreley
                  (so far) stand as experts to me on the subject of the "soul of Native
                  America". I do not dismiss what you say or what he says, but rather
                  raise doubts, clearly stated in my posts. Also, I find riches in what
                  you say (and often tell you so), but also I find things to question
                  and cast doubt upon. I am not a "fan." I respect you more than to be
                  a "fan", and I will not accept what you or Mr. Moreley say without
                  question if the question arises, and if disagreement arises, I will
                  say so. This does not mean I think I have arrived at some final
                  truth. So, maybe you might read clearly and practice what you preach
                  about clear thinking and moving beyond antipathies and sympathies, if
                  that is needed.

                  I realize that there is much more you say in your letter, but your
                  opening paragraphs are ones I have attempted to address because they
                  permeate the rest of your post.

                  Thank you for your offerings, ones that always are helpful to me, one
                  way or another, very helpful.

                  Blessings,
                  elaine
                • elaineupton2001
                  Dear Joel, The second two-thirds or so (smile) of your post where you ask many questions of soul qualities of races and groups, of how anthroposophists
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 3, 2003
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                    Dear Joel,

                    The second two-thirds or so (smile) of your post where you ask many
                    questions of "soul" qualities of races and groups, of how
                    anthroposophists address these, and so on are questions important to
                    me, as to you. Here and there in your questioning you take on what
                    for me is, as I already implied in my last post, a lecturing tone and
                    suggest that I might study more, without even knowing anything about
                    what I have studied or where I might be coming from. There is a
                    certain presumptuousness, in my view.

                    In any case, the questions themselves are important to me, and I have
                    been pursuing many of them for most of my life.

                    Blessings,
                    elaine
                  • Joel Wendt
                    Dear Elaine, Sorry for the tone. I rather have some passion about this then not, and don t expect perfection of myself or you (although I do expect it of
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 3, 2003
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                      Dear Elaine,

                      Sorry for the tone. I rather have some passion about this then not,
                      and don't expect perfection of myself or you (although I do expect it of
                      Starman and lightwhatever.)

                      If I was presumptuous of your search and work, again I am sorry. We
                      don't really know much about each other through this medium, do we.

                      warm regards,
                      joel

                      On Tue, 2003-06-03 at 18:08, elaineupton2001 wrote:
                      > Dear Joel,
                      >
                      > The second two-thirds or so (smile) of your post where you ask many
                      > questions of "soul" qualities of races and groups, of how
                      > anthroposophists address these, and so on are questions important to
                      > me, as to you. Here and there in your questioning you take on what
                      > for me is, as I already implied in my last post, a lecturing tone and
                      > suggest that I might study more, without even knowing anything about
                      > what I have studied or where I might be coming from. There is a
                      > certain presumptuousness, in my view.
                      >
                      > In any case, the questions themselves are important to me, and I have
                      > been pursuing many of them for most of my life.
                      >
                      > Blessings,
                      > elaine
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy
                      > Unsubscribe:
                      > anthroposophy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > List owner: anthroposophy-owner@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                    • elaineupton2001
                      Dear Joel, Thanks for writing again. I agree that we do not really know each other, and this medium provides its own challenges in that regard, for sure!
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 4, 2003
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                        Dear Joel,

                        Thanks for writing again. I agree that we do not really know each
                        other, and this medium provides its own challenges in that regard,
                        for sure!

                        ((Yes, I, too, expect perfection, not from myself, of course, but
                        from those stellar beings--Lightsearcher and Starman----smile))

                        We share the passion for the subject of Native America and other
                        groups and how the souls of peoples express wisdom and can address
                        concerns of anthroposophy and Threefolding. Thank you.

                        A few weeks ago I was in Hopi Land (mainly in Second Mesa, but also
                        in Keams Canyon), which is about 1/2 days drive from here. Being
                        there, also after being in Navajo and Apache country and what I call
                        Georgia O'Keeffe country, was so meaningful to me, and I do not yet
                        even know how to express all of that in conventional prose. ((I did
                        write a short story, which has been sent, in a collection of stories
                        I wrote on the character of places, to a publisher.)) I am a writer
                        of poetry and of stories, and perhaps I express myself better in the
                        medium of what is called poetry and "literary fiction"
                        (although "fiction" is a misleading term, I feel).

                        It seems I do express myself poorly sometimes on this list, and I do
                        want you to know that I was not dismissing Mr. Moreley (but
                        attempting to question something), and also a hard copy of his work
                        is likely to soon be in my possession (smile).

                        By the way, on the subject of anthroposophy in relation to Native
                        America, African-Americans, Africans,the geography of America and
                        more, our former listmate, Stephen Clarke, who also has a passion for
                        these threads, and who lives near me here in Santa Fe, has sent an
                        announcement of an upcoming August event outside Detroit, an
                        annoucement you may already have, but if not, here is the gist of it
                        (as I understand it). --Well, on second thought: others on this list
                        also may also be interested, so maybe I'd better send it under a
                        separate subject heading in case some are not reading this.

                        Blessings,
                        elaine
                      • Joel Wendt
                        Dear Elaine, Fortune willing, I should by around the first week or so of August, finally be permanently out there in the Southwest with you and Stephen and
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jun 5, 2003
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                          Dear Elaine,

                          Fortune willing, I should by around the first week or so of August,
                          finally be permanently out there in the Southwest with you and Stephen
                          and others, as I am moving to Prescott Arizona to live near my youngest
                          (she of 15, with nose ring, going on 35).

                          My last visit to Hopi Land, that providence allowed, was over Easter
                          weekend of 1985, and except for the horrible heat of the summers, I very
                          much look forward to returning to this quite remarkable area of not only
                          the Americas, but the Planet as well.

                          I know of the conference, but I am glad you have told the list. I
                          would like to go, but all the aspects of my move are up in the air, and
                          I can't yet make any concrete plans.

                          warm regards,
                          joel

                          On Wed, 2003-06-04 at 18:08, elaineupton2001 wrote:
                          > Dear Joel,
                          >
                          > Thanks for writing again. I agree that we do not really know each
                          > other, and this medium provides its own challenges in that regard,
                          > for sure!
                          >
                          > ((Yes, I, too, expect perfection, not from myself, of course, but
                          > from those stellar beings--Lightsearcher and Starman----smile))
                          >
                          > We share the passion for the subject of Native America and other
                          > groups and how the souls of peoples express wisdom and can address
                          > concerns of anthroposophy and Threefolding. Thank you.
                          >
                          > A few weeks ago I was in Hopi Land (mainly in Second Mesa, but also
                          > in Keams Canyon), which is about 1/2 days drive from here. Being
                          > there, also after being in Navajo and Apache country and what I call
                          > Georgia O'Keeffe country, was so meaningful to me, and I do not yet
                          > even know how to express all of that in conventional prose. ((I did
                          > write a short story, which has been sent, in a collection of stories
                          > I wrote on the character of places, to a publisher.)) I am a writer
                          > of poetry and of stories, and perhaps I express myself better in the
                          > medium of what is called poetry and "literary fiction"
                          > (although "fiction" is a misleading term, I feel).
                          >
                          > It seems I do express myself poorly sometimes on this list, and I do
                          > want you to know that I was not dismissing Mr. Moreley (but
                          > attempting to question something), and also a hard copy of his work
                          > is likely to soon be in my possession (smile).
                          >
                          > By the way, on the subject of anthroposophy in relation to Native
                          > America, African-Americans, Africans,the geography of America and
                          > more, our former listmate, Stephen Clarke, who also has a passion for
                          > these threads, and who lives near me here in Santa Fe, has sent an
                          > announcement of an upcoming August event outside Detroit, an
                          > annoucement you may already have, but if not, here is the gist of it
                          > (as I understand it). --Well, on second thought: others on this list
                          > also may also be interested, so maybe I'd better send it under a
                          > separate subject heading in case some are not reading this.
                          >
                          > Blessings,
                          > elaine
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy
                          > Unsubscribe:
                          > anthroposophy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > List owner: anthroposophy-owner@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                        • elaineupton2001
                          Wow-wee! Wonderful that you are returning west, now Southwest, dear Joel! Maybe we (you, Stephen, Martha Keltiz, who else?--) can stir up this red dirt here
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jun 5, 2003
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                            Wow-wee! Wonderful that you are returning west, now Southwest, dear
                            Joel! Maybe we (you, Stephen, Martha Keltiz, who else?--) can stir up
                            this red dirt here and ride (or walk, or fly?) right up on top of one
                            of these mesas and look out over this great land and join the Natives
                            in a real Pow-Wow and sit with them in circle and talk about how the
                            various spiritual streams meet in this great land!--That could be a
                            continuation, possibly, of whatever happens at the Detroit event
                            ("Journey into the Heart of the New America") in August.

                            Far-fetched? (smile)

                            Blessings,
                            elaine
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