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Living Thinking

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  • Evert Hoff
    Could someone give me a reference to where Steiner defines the concept of Living Thinking? Thanks, Evert
    Message 1 of 16 , May 1, 2003
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      Could someone give me a reference to where Steiner defines the concept
      of Living Thinking?

      Thanks,

      Evert
    • Joel Wendt
      Dear Evert, You are chasing a horse here that doesn t exist. The best we can do is walk around living thinking and use words and concepts to point a finger in
      Message 2 of 16 , May 1, 2003
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        Dear Evert,

        You are chasing a horse here that doesn't exist. The best we can do is
        walk around living thinking and use words and concepts to point a finger
        in its direction.

        The best I ever heard about it was an analogy, by someone who had
        achieved it. Its like making love to the point where you loose yourself
        in the other. Except that talking about it (as an experience) has the
        same quality as masturbation does to making love this way.

        The former is an empty imitation, and the latter beyond description.

        There is no definition of the concept of living thinking that could
        have any meaning.

        warm regards,
        joel

        On Thu, 2003-05-01 at 11:51, Evert Hoff wrote:
        > Could someone give me a reference to where Steiner defines the concept
        > of Living Thinking?
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Evert
        >
        >
        >
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      • DRStarman2001@aol.com
        ... ******* It is something that needs to be taken up as a way of life, with the whole being, including, for instance, using the very personal forces we move
        Message 3 of 16 , May 1, 2003
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          >> What is the Rosicrucian path by the way?

          ******* It is something that needs to be taken up as a way of life, with the whole being, including, for instance, using the very personal forces we move our bodies with.

          >>Could you explain more what you mean in the above statement??


          *******Sure, just as priests dedicate their entire bodies to performing a ritual, or athletes will adopt an 'ascetic' way of life to prepare for a competition, or a dancer will dedicate her entire being to her art, so the pursuit of spiritual science involves not only the head, but must go into the whole of life--- all your deeds, one by one.  You can't take it up only with the intellect and leave aside how you speak, the things you do in daily life, etc. It has to work into and transform all the layers of your being. Your every word and gesture has to be thought through and performed from out of your study, as in performing a ritual. Steiner said that in the future, a scientist working at his laboratory table would come to regard it as it his altar. for instance.


          *******Many people also confuse it with other half-conscious or subconscious paths, like Eastern or pagan ones. They want to abandon reason. This path is not one like that: it is constantly directed by your conscious rational mind.

          >>Since I have some experience with Yoga and Zen, I am not quite clear about what you mean here The wakefulness "exercises" in Zen and Vapassina meditation demand a high degree of conscious attention and not falling asleep. It is an active/passive observing process. It is certainly not semi conscious. In fact, during these practices, psychic experiences are common with lights being seen, color phenomena, etc. but its rarely talked about. Buddhism is highly reasonable and logical in its own way. The question I have then- why is reason so often considered the enemy of consciousness and spiritual work by virtually every other path.


          *******There are what I meant by 'Eastern' paths and then there are some that have combined  their older elements with more modern, Western consciousness. I meant the ones that negate the use of the intellect and instead focus on breathing and other subconscious processes of the body,

             The reason was often stated by Steiner, that these ancient Asian paths worship  the life forces-- which we once had the use of before the modern intellect came into being. Their traditions recall a time when we had the use of these forces, and then what they perceived as 'lower' intellectual knowledge arose-- and therefore they teach that this has to be put aside in order to get the other back.

             But the path of spiritual science involves changing the abstract intellect into a living thinking, one which will not block the life forces, but rather lets them through. Some paths have this understanding that one's awareness must be increased, as anthroposophy does, while others go around consciousness and use subconscious stuff. We know that this opens you up to the influence of lower beings.



          >>The conventional reasoning process does not do well with experiences that "defy"
          reason at times ( like having a clear sense of separation of the "self" from the physical body.This form of spiritual discrimination is part of all paths, it seems.
          Lee

          ******But actually pure thinking, reasoning about whatever you observe, IS carried over into the body-free state. It's a falsehood that our thinking is only good for sense-perceptible objects: it is good for anything observed, through any senses, including those of the soul and the spirit. When the self is separated from the physical body, it does indeed use reason--- only pure reason, pure thinking, as in mathematics and geometry, not the mere 'having of thought-images' that most people use in daily life, which is dependent on the body.

          -Starman
          http://www.DrStarman.net
        • DRStarman2001@aol.com
          ... *******The ancient Greeks used to say that Man thought with his heart, not with his head. This was a way of saying real thinking is done with the entire
          Message 4 of 16 , May 1, 2003
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            anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com writes:
            Subject: Living Thinking
            Could someone give me a reference to where Steiner defines the concept
            of Living Thinking?
            Thanks,
            Evert


            *******The ancient Greeks used to say that Man thought with his heart, not with his head. This was a way of saying real thinking is done with the entire being. Living thinking has all the Will and feeling put into it that you use in living your life.
                Steiner sometimes called it having life in thinking, sometimes 'wollen in gedanken', Will in thinking.
               One of the best collections I know of his various descriptions of it is the book "Rudolf Steiner on His Book The Philosophy of Freedom" arranged by Otto Palmer. It's not online at the Steiner electronic library, but they have a summary of it here and I believe a note that it's available from the Anthroposophical Press:

            http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/sumries.txt;bytes=90360-90747

            -Starman
            http://www.DrStarman.net
          • jeff barney
            Also see research in neurocardiology. Joseph chilton pearce is an exellent interpreter of info one won t see for years to come in conventional research
            Message 5 of 16 , May 2, 2003
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              Also see research in neurocardiology. Joseph chilton pearce is an exellent interpreter of info one won't see for years to come in conventional research journals.

              DRStarman2001@... wrote:
              anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com writes:
              Subject: Living Thinking
              Could someone give me a reference to where Steiner defines the concept
              of Living Thinking?
              Thanks,
              Evert


              *******The ancient Greeks used to say that Man thought with his heart, not with his head. This was a way of saying real thinking is done with the entire being. Living thinking has all the Will and feeling put into it that you use in living your life.
                  Steiner sometimes called it having life in thinking, sometimes 'wollen in gedanken', Will in thinking.
                 One of the best collections I know of his various descriptions of it is the book "Rudolf Steiner on His Book The Philosophy of Freedom" arranged by Otto Palmer. It's not online at the Steiner electronic library, but they have a summary of it here and I believe a note that it's available from the Anthroposophical Press:

              http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/sumries.txt;bytes=90360-90747

              -Starman
              http://www.DrStarman.net

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            • Lee Peters
              That was great ( about the Rosicrucian Path and the blending of East and West in some eastern approaches now in use. But I have a question about this
              Message 6 of 16 , May 2, 2003
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                That was great ( about the Rosicrucian Path and the blending of East and West in some "
                eastern approaches" now in use. But I have a question about this below.
                Can you or Steiner or someone else describe exactly how pure thinking and reason are actually experienced in the the out of body condition. Do we think and form words like here on earth? Descriptions I have run across state that as "travelers" think, it instantly manifests around them. Telepathy is natural and seeing the reading the minds of others equally so.

                 

                What is your knowledge here? How do we learn to "think" and reason in this new state?

                Lee


                ******But actually pure thinking, reasoning about whatever you observe, IS carried over into the body-free state. It's a falsehood that our thinking is only good for sense-perceptible objects: it is good for anything observed, through any senses, including those of the soul and the spirit. When the self is separated from the physical body, it does indeed use reason--- only pure reason, pure thinking, as in mathematics and geometry, not the mere 'having of thought-images' that most people use in daily life, which is dependent on the body.

                -Starman
                http://www.DrStarman.net

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy
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              • elaineupton2001
                Dear Lee and all, Lee, you asked about whether there are any initiates besides Steiner (in the Steinerian vein, I assume, you mean). There is the danger for
                Message 7 of 16 , May 2, 2003
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                  Dear Lee and all,

                  Lee, you asked about whether there are any initiates besides Steiner
                  (in the Steinerian vein, I assume, you mean). There is the danger for
                  some of us of getting into the superstar mode and looking for
                  initiates to look up to or worship. So, in looking for initiates, I
                  feel a need to be careful.

                  Having said that, let me say that some consider Orland Bishop to be
                  an initiate. I don't know if he publishes (in print) anything, but he
                  is involved in a lot of social initiatives, with another great
                  anthroposophic leader (in my opinion) and that one is Nicanor Perlas,
                  a Phillipine who walks the talk and brings it down to Earth in
                  relationship to Cosmos. Nicanor Perlas has things on the web,
                  especially as regards Threefolding and Civil Society and the work to
                  overcome corporate globalism. Also in this realm is the work of
                  Jesiaiah Ben-Aharon.

                  Owen Barfield, now on the other side, is someone also whose work
                  seems to me quite advanced and enlightened.

                  I personally cannot say if any of these men are "initiates', but I do
                  feel they have an immense lot to offer.

                  I think there are women who show up in other traditions who have
                  levels of initiation. Some of them are called curanderos and known by
                  other titles, and they have achieved certain levels.

                  The question is (or so I see it): what, or who, lights the light
                  within you?

                  There are, as you know, various levels and kinds of initiation (as
                  pointed out by you, Starman, Joel and others in the references to
                  Steiner). The important thing to me is to follow the highest
                  promptings of Spirit in oneself, as best one can, and to study all
                  great teachings that speak to one. The circle will be ever expanding,
                  even if it is narrow at first. If the intention is high, then help
                  will be found. As Steiner says (and I agree) if the intention is not
                  just egotistical, but the work is for the "ennoblement of humanity
                  and the upliftment of the cosmos" then one is on the right path.

                  Aho!
                  elaine
                • Lee Peters
                  Thanks Elaine. I was really looking for others who had possibly confirmed and brought the similar or new knowledge to the world since Steiner. Though I
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 3, 2003
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                    Thanks Elaine.
                     
                    I was really looking for others who had possibly confirmed and brought the similar or new knowledge to the world since Steiner. Though I greatly appreciate his work and accomplishments, I feel his writings are dated and will not speak to America or modern people very well. I am not just looking for edited summaries but real breakthroughs in the same path. I use his works but rarely can offer them to others (like Theosophy or Occult Science)- they read a little can not continue on.
                    Lee

                    elaineupton2001 <elaineupton@...> wrote:
                    Dear Lee and all,

                    Lee, you asked about whether there are any initiates besides Steiner
                    (in the Steinerian vein, I assume, you mean). There is the danger for
                    some of us of getting into the superstar mode and looking for
                    initiates to look up to or worship. So, in looking for initiates, I
                    feel a need to be careful.

                    Having said that, let me say that some consider Orland Bishop to be
                    an initiate. I don't know if he publishes (in print) anything, but he
                    is involved in a lot of social initiatives, with another great
                    anthroposophic leader (in my opinion) and that one is Nicanor Perlas,
                    a Phillipine who walks the talk and brings it down to Earth in
                    relationship to Cosmos. Nicanor Perlas has things on the web,
                    especially as regards Threefolding and Civil Society and the work to
                    overcome corporate globalism. Also in this realm is the work of
                    Jesiaiah Ben-Aharon.

                    Owen Barfield, now on the other side, is someone also whose work
                    seems to me quite advanced and enlightened.

                    I personally cannot say if any of these men are "initiates', but I do
                    feel they have an immense lot to offer.

                    I think there are women who show up in other traditions who have
                    levels of initiation. Some of them are called curanderos and known by
                    other titles, and they have achieved certain levels.

                    The question is (or so I see it): what, or who, lights the light
                    within you?

                    There are, as you know, various levels and kinds of initiation (as
                    pointed out by you, Starman, Joel and others in the references to
                    Steiner). The important thing to me is to follow the highest
                    promptings of Spirit in oneself, as best one can, and to study all
                    great teachings that speak to one. The circle will be ever expanding,
                    even if it is narrow at first. If the intention is high, then help
                    will be found. As Steiner says (and I agree) if the intention is not
                    just egotistical, but the work is for the "ennoblement of humanity
                    and the upliftment of the cosmos" then one is on the right path.

                    Aho!
                    elaine



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