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Re: [anthroposophy] Islam last question

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  • Joel Wendt
    ... No, it is not simple. It is nasty and messy and requires of us a great deal of soul searching and knowledge seeking and inner and outer work. Making it
    Message 1 of 5 , Apr 2, 2003
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      On Wed, 2003-04-02 at 07:23, Gabriel D. Pulgar wrote:

      > Is this war not a simple question: which is worse, this war or
      > terrorism? Like we need to choose the lesser of two evils.

      No, it is not simple. It is nasty and messy and requires of us a great
      deal of soul searching and knowledge seeking and inner and outer work.
      Making it simple is just being inwardly lazy. Simple saves us the
      trouble of dealing with the paradoxes, and the different thinkings and
      feelings of others. Simple saves us the time of reading and study and
      all those acts of responsible and moral citizenship that our countries
      and the world need of us. Simple is a way not to think at all.

      complicated regards,
      joel
    • foncteur
      there is no choice : we (mankind) will have both, global war and terrorism. In fact terrorism is already considered by the majority of muslims as an allowable
      Message 2 of 5 , Apr 2, 2003
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        there is no choice : we (mankind) will have both, global war and
        terrorism. In fact terrorism is already considered by the majority of
        muslims as an allowable strategy in global war.
        What is in front of us, in the next 10 or 20 years, is an horror
        which is beyond all human understanding.
        There is a book, a famous short novel by Joseph Conrad : "Heart of
        darkness", which could be fruitfully studied in the light of recent
        and upcoming events (the famous film of Coppola, "Apocalypse now",
        was inspired by this novel)...in fact there is a recent book in
        French, "Civilisation et barbarie" written by many french
        philosophers, and there is a short study of the book. This is the
        story of Kurtz, a westerner which goes to Africa at the end of 19th
        century, the colonial period, and there he meets his own barbary :
        cmodern civilisation is built upon and mixed with the most brutal
        inner savagery. BUT in the same time it brought aufklarung,
        Enlightenment. Paradox ? no, dialectical contradiction.
        The last words of Kurtz dying are "the horror, the horror..."
        What is this "horror" ? this is proper to the western modern
        man, "without god", but with computers and "reason as calculus" (see
        the book of Matin Kush at Kluwer about the controversy on "Logic :
        calculus or language ? ").
        We will have to face ourselves, we will have to face this horror.
        The (philosophical) fact that "gods have retired" (Heidegger) or
        that "gods died in a burst of laughing in front of the Unique God"
        (Nieteszche) means that we are alone. "Only a god can help us"
        (Heidegger at the end of his life), but no god will help us. Because
        even if a god appeared in front of him, the western modern man would
        kick him in the ass. And he would be right : we don't need another
        gods, we must remain absolutely alone in front of this "strange
        universe".
        Only Reason could help, but not reason as a short term calculus :
        and once again, France bears a terrible responsability in all that
        mess. Because France accepted on her land the ayatollah Ruhollah
        Khomeiny as a refugiee, until 1978. Had she not done that, there
        would have been no islamic "revolution" in Iran, no war between Iran
        and Iraq in 1980, no gulf War in 1991, etc..etc.. this is the
        original sin, and this sin is french.
        Bon courage , we will need it ! (and without alcohol please)


        --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Gabriel D. Pulgar"
        <gpulgar@y...> wrote:
        > Thank you for all your responses.
        > My name is Gabriel and although I did a biography on Mohammed
        > Foundation Year, I really am ignorant. I never knew this info some
        > have explained to me. I asked myself today a question and thought
        to
        > try your patience one more time,please.
        > Is this war not a simple question: which is worse, this war or
        > terrorism? Like we need to choose the lesser of two evils.
        > I know simple is not good but sometimes I think it is good.
        > I can't tell you how grateful I am for your thoughts.
        >
        > Gabriel
      • Gabriel D. Pulgar
        Thank you for that. With simple I mean that often complicated means trying to be clever or prove something or show off, but when I talk to my wife with love I
        Message 3 of 5 , Apr 2, 2003
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          Thank you for that.

          With simple I mean that often complicated means trying to be clever
          or prove something or show off, but when I talk to my wife with love
          I keep it simple. In that way simple. But thank you for your comment
          that no it isn't simple. I appreciate that.

          Warmest regards,

          Gabriel



          --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, Joel Wendt <hermit@t...> wrote:
          > On Wed, 2003-04-02 at 07:23, Gabriel D. Pulgar wrote:
          >
          > > Is this war not a simple question: which is worse, this war or
          > > terrorism? Like we need to choose the lesser of two evils.
          >
          > No, it is not simple. It is nasty and messy and requires of us a
          great
          > deal of soul searching and knowledge seeking and inner and outer
          work.
          > Making it simple is just being inwardly lazy. Simple saves us the
          > trouble of dealing with the paradoxes, and the different thinkings
          and
          > feelings of others. Simple saves us the time of reading and study
          and
          > all those acts of responsible and moral citizenship that our
          countries
          > and the world need of us. Simple is a way not to think at all.
          >
          > complicated regards,
          > joel
        • DRStarman2001@aol.com
          ... France bears a terrible responsability in all that ... *******If we have faith in mankind, we know that, just as Socialist Dictatorships could not be
          Message 4 of 5 , Apr 2, 2003
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            foncteur@... writes:
            there is no choice : we (mankind) will have both, global war and
            terrorism. In fact terrorism is already considered by the majority of
            muslims as an allowable strategy in global war.
            What is in front of us, in the next 10 or 20 years, is an horror
            which is beyond all human understanding.....

            France bears a terrible responsability in all that

            mess. Because France accepted on her land the ayatollah Ruhollah
            Khomeiny as a refugiee, until 1978. Had she not done that, there
            would have been no islamic "revolution" in Iran, no war between Iran
            and Iraq in 1980, no gulf War in 1991, etc..etc.. this is the
            original sin, and this sin is french.
            Bon courage , we will need it ! (and without alcohol please)


            *******If we have faith in mankind, we know that, just as Socialist Dictatorships could not be made to last, chaining the human spirit in the dungeons of Forced 'Compassion'--- and so a military defense against their contagion in places like South Korea and central Europe along with constant vigilance throughout the free world, was necessary for 50 years until the people themselves revolted against it--- so too "Don't Think Just Do What the Imam Says" Dark Ages religion cannot last. Young people are already tired of it in Iran. Military action in a few places and a concerted campaign against it everywhere will be needed for a generation.
                Just as, when there was a need for concerted action against communism, some Westerners denied the need for it, either because they were communists or because they saw only moral equivalence between our Western ways and the enemies of the West, so too now and throughout the next generation there will be people who will oppose what needs to be done. Fortunately, that healthy debate which goes on in free societies did not alter the conviction of Western nations to pursue the policy of containment outlined by George Kennan until socialist societies collapsed from their internal contradictions, and I think we can hope that it will not alter the determination that the United States, England, and Australia  have made regarding the proper course of action against this retrograde religious fundamentalism.
            We must have faith that the individual human spirit wants to be free and live a healthy life, and that the distortions of the human being caused by brainwashing are just temporary aberrations that can't be sustained.
            -Starman
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