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Re: [anthroposophy] Islam

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  • SRC
    ... That s an excellent and thought-provoking question - that is, unless one has a premanufactured opinion already in the chamber, ready to fire at all comers.
    Message 1 of 29 , Apr 1 2:20 PM
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      Dear Gabriel:

      --- "Gabriel D. Pulgar" <gpulgar@...> wrote:
      > Hi,
      > My name is Gabriel. I have been following this group for a short
      > while now and I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think
      > responsible Islamic leaders don't speak out to correct the negative
      > image radicals are making for the general public?

      That's an excellent and thought-provoking question - that is, unless one
      has a premanufactured opinion already in the chamber, ready to fire at all
      comers.

      My opinion is that Islam is caught in a reactionary cycle that is even
      more intrenched and ingrained than we see in the Falwell
      Let's-Bring-On-the-Armageddon-by-Throwing-Gas-On-All-The-Brushfires
      lunatic fringe of Christianity.
      I also suspect that there are_ many clerics, scholars, and truly
      sssspiritual leaders in the stream who _do_ speak out (in fact, I know of
      some), but since it is in the interests of none of the major players on
      either side that they be given air-time, we see or hear little from them
      in the US.

      Islam has a glorious history, but suffered a grievous blow from the Mongol
      invasions. Its relationship with Europe is complicated, to say the least.
      This is one area in which there are certainly no easy, simple answers.
      Major transforming forces are working through all departments of global
      culture, ours as well as theirs. Whatever the output will be, it will
      depend in large part upon our input. It behooves us all to be on our best
      behaviour.

      Best Regards,

      Stephen


      =====
      "The only thing I regret about my past is the length of it. If I had to live my life again I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner." - Tallulah Bankhead

      "Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation." - Clarence Darrow

      "Those who cannot hear the music think that the dancer is mad." - Rumi

      "The victim who is able to articulate the situation of the victim has ceased to be a victim: he or she has become a threat." - James Baldwin

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    • lightsearcher1
      My faith in the living force and virtue of the post-pot-head generations is born anew ! Gabriel, I will do what Steiner sometimes recommended - and that is to
      Message 2 of 29 , Apr 1 2:51 PM
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        My faith in the living force and virtue
        of the post-pot-head generations is born anew !

        Gabriel, I will do what Steiner sometimes
        recommended - and that is to BASK in the QUESTION
        rather than vaulting toward some answer or other.

        And, man, am I basking !

        Thank you Archangel Gabriel, for
        your question has brought joy to
        my day and to my heart.

        . . . . . . . . . . .


        In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com,
        "Gabriel D. Pulgar" <gpulgar@y...> wrote:

        > Hi,
        > My name is Gabriel. I have been following this group for a short
        > while now and I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think
        > responsible Islamic leaders don't speak out to correct the negative
        > image radicals are making for the general public? I asked myself if
        > a Christian group held women and children in front of military
        > targets, would someone speak out against it...and frankly I don't
        > know... but I hope someone would. I would like to hear from anyone,
        > using small words please- not Steiner talk- so a common guy can
        > understand.
        >
        > Thank you and bye for now.
      • Joel Wendt
        Dear Gabriel, You ve made a big assumption, namely that no Muslim leaders have spoken out in this way. Certainly this would be very difficult to find out,
        Message 3 of 29 , Apr 1 3:03 PM
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          Dear Gabriel,

          You've made a big assumption, namely that no Muslim leaders have spoken
          out in this way.

          Certainly this would be very difficult to find out, given that the
          major media are pretty much not giving us any news about the views of
          Muslim leaders, except in the most edited fashion.

          Here is a URL to an article about US Muslim clerics (as well as
          Christian clerics) in favor of peace.

          http://www.bet.com/articles/0,,p344gb5835-6583,00.html

          Here's one on Kuwaiti leaders views.

          http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/02020412.htm

          Here's one about Indonesian leaders disagreeing with Osama Ben Laden's
          call for attacks against US.

          http://www.abc.net.au/asiapacific/focus/asia/GoAsiaPacificFocusAsiaStories_783414.htm

          Here's the link to aljazeera, the middle east CNN, if you want to go to
          the sources instead of depend upon predigested views from American news
          agencies.

          http://aljazeera.org.uk/

          Sanity is not the sole possession of the West.

          warm regards,
          joel


          On Tue, 2003-04-01 at 16:29, Gabriel D. Pulgar wrote:
          > Hi,
          > My name is Gabriel. I have been following this group for a short
          > while now and I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think
          > responsible Islamic leaders don't speak out to correct the negative
          > image radicals are making for the general public? I asked myself if
          > a Christian group held women and children in front of military
          > targets, would someone speak out against it...and frankly I don't
          > know... but I hope someone would. I would like to hear from anyone,
          > using small words please- not Steiner talk- so a common guy can
          > understand.
        • holderlin66
          Rough Legend of the Dogwood by Bradford Riley, 1999 That mighty tree, strong in spirit, grew in the hills of Jerusalem and as it towered it knew, sure as the
          Message 4 of 29 , Apr 1 4:06 PM
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            "Rough Legend of the Dogwood"
            by Bradford Riley, 1999

            That mighty tree, strong in spirit, grew in

            the hills of Jerusalem and as it towered

            it knew, sure as the stars shone

            livingly on it and its roots danced in

            the cosmic dance with the earth, that

            itself, a tree, was destined for some

            great purpose.



            The stars whispered it to its full leaves,

            and the wind carried the hopes like a

            fair maid drying her hair with her

            limbs. Tales were told of the time when

            the temple gates and frames to the holy of

            holy sanctuaries were given to the greatest

            of the trees. To serve man. Not like

            that TO SERVE MAN as a menu for alien

            dinner parties. No. A divine task to

            serve as a pathway to lift earth and her

            quiet citizens skyward once more.



            This one mighty tree had been spoken of

            with the elders of the planets. Night after

            night, and in the dreams of trees, the

            heavens reveal more, for the trees stand

            erect with the knowledge that they know.

            They stand as if the earth had a spine,

            and men would know it. So this tree

            had dreamed many a fair dream

            while growing in the Etheric bosom of Earth.

            Perhaps it was to be some tall Mast to some

            mighty ship that steered by the holy stars.

            Time passed, and it was given to know

            through her roots that a tingling event

            was about to occur.



            The rough cutters cut her, planed her

            and squared her, and soon it appeared it

            was a mast with her new extended cross beams,

            just as a maiden would be newly

            clothed for some wedding.

            She was elated for it was her time. Not so

            smoothed was she, some roughness

            still lingered of her former stately beauty.



            Then the nails, then the blood, and as

            the blood soaked the tree's newface, she

            felt the power of all of holy nature as in

            song and sunshine rush through her;

            and of the earliest

            primal glories, Her etheric vision saw the

            strange history of forests long gone,

            and histories where earth was smoke,

            and diamonds and coal had not

            pressed themselves back into stars.



            It was raised, she was, the gods rood,

            mighty above the land, and at that

            moment the earth herself, as ship of

            state, was now guided by the very

            sun which had given it birth.

            The Captain of the mighty vessel,

            He it was, who now steered with the tree

            together, the destiny of the earth

            herself.



            This was more than the tree could bear.

            It felt the sharp agony in the Captain's

            hands and feet; the long-silent sap wept

            in resonance, and its sorrow tingled

            with the earth's sorrow, though every

            grain and circle of its magnificent body

            ached with the agony and the joy.

            She saw the three ancient Norns arise from the ground

            like vast darkening spirits only to kneel beneath them. And

            had it a choice, then and there, she would

            never have felt the pride she felt so long ago

            at having been chosen for such a destiny.



            Even so, the Captain which was Captive

            clung with his beating heart, so

            that as the wood of some great

            instrument could hear and feel the

            mighty tones of heaven wafting and

            played by this, her master, so this tree

            wept sap and blood and blood and sap

            for the nature that would be

            and those that were gone before.

            The Captain on the Cross pulsed his

            mighty heart throbs into the wood's

            most intimate core, and all things,

            like a great musician, the tree with

            her sensitive vibrating chords shared with Him

            the most stunning

            symphony ever played by living or dead.

            Woven in the Music that held the spheres

            Were ancient Norse Words of Love-Power-Wisdom.



            Music, it is said, has tried in vain

            to find and remember in the wood, the

            strings, what the great tree heard

            as she carried the whole world's heart

            on her firm limbs. As the Cosmos sang back to the Gods,

            It is Finished!



            But the sorrow was deeper and the pathos,

            stronger than all of nature could bear.

            But the great heart that beat sung

            inwardly a new song and wove a new

            life for this now holy tree. He felt her

            sorrow and from her sorrow wove

            four new blossoms of white; and on

            those white tips he put the marks

            of the pain, where the thorns and

            the blood spattered and where the

            helping healing hands were nailed and

            those feet that softly tread the earth

            and brought down all miracles were

            sorely bruised.

            Thus four white petals

            stained at the edges of the blossom, and ever was she

            from that moment, transformed. Even as a raven would

            be to a dove, so it was that a new

            tree, always at that time of that

            dread yet highest symphony of passion

            played in the heart of the Earth,

            so dost She sing in sweetness at

            Spring.



            So companion close was she, that even

            as the faithful spirit of man and his

            closest companion, his best friend is the

            dog, so did the Dogwood come to be. A

            quiet and changed tree that ever after

            loves only Spring, and its wood would

            nevermore be used for such sacrifice.

            But if you listen, you may still hear

            the song she shared on the Rood skull

            of the world's Holy Hill. Sung frome the

            Ancient Runes of the singing Logos to

            the dying world.



            Happy Easter!
          • Sarah
            Gabriel, Your question comes from the religious/cultural relativist stance that is popular today. Most people in the west don t know much about Islam and
            Message 5 of 29 , Apr 1 9:57 PM
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              Gabriel,
              Your question comes from the 'religious/cultural relativist' stance that is popular today. Most people in the west don't know much about Islam and think it is just another religion like christianity or buddhism.  
               
              The simple fact is that if the religious leaders speak out against certain actions they are going against the Koran, and risk their lives because the Koran calls for islamic dissenters to be killed. While Mohammad is the prophet of the Koran, like Jesus is to the Bible, they are at opposite poles. Mohammad commited purposeful mass murders and killings of innocents - I think it went into the thousands - in the name of Allah, as well as many other awful things. He called for killing of Jews and other infidels. Only recently did Saudi Arabia make it a criminal offence to kill an 'infidel'.
               
              Honour and revenge are more important than Humility and Forgiveness. On the other hand, Jesus and Paul of the NT did not kill or hurt anyone - in fact they called for understanding, forgiveness, kindness, love the enemy, don't throw the first stone, take the log out of one's own eye, turn the other cheek and so on. The two religions just don't compare. Also, 98% of muslims are literalists (according to the islamic studies professor at ANU); in fact it is very difficult to take islam any other way while the myth of religious/cultural/moral relativism prevails. 
               
              If you want to explore this question further, go to www.secularislam.org which is a site run by intellectuals of moslem birth who want to explain the truth about Islam to westerners, and about why there is so much violence, poverty, illiteracy, ignorance etc in their nations and they explain how it is tied to islamic thinking. While most moslems are in denial and will become very defensive if questioned on a deeper level, there are others who are fighting hard to Reform islamic thinking and they need our support. But the religious equivalence myth only keeps us all bogged in the quagmire of blindness and denial.
               
              Sarah
               
               
               
              > Hi,
              > My name is Gabriel. I have been following this group for a
              short
              > while now and I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think
              > responsible Islamic leaders don't speak out to correct the negative
              > image radicals are making for the general public? I asked myself if
              > a Christian group held women and children in front of military
              >
              targets, would someone speak out against it...and frankly I don't
              >
              know... but I hope someone would. I would like to hear from anyone,
              >
              using small words please- not Steiner talk- so a common guy can
              >
              understand.
              >
              > Thank you and bye for now.
            • foncteur
              Because violence, war and conquest is an essential part of Islam. It is necessary, to be a good muslim, to kill pagans and atheists and to humiliate the
              Message 6 of 29 , Apr 2 2:55 AM
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                Because violence, war and conquest is an essential part of Islam.
                It is necessary, to be a good muslim, to kill pagans and atheists
                and to humiliate the dhimmis (jews and christians)
                War is an essential part of the islamic way to perfectness.
                Here is what I just read on a french islamic forum, it is a hadith
                of Boukhari:
                "
                Le Prophète (Que la paix et la bénédiction de Dieu sur lui), rapporte
                Anas Malek (Que Dieu l'agrée) a dit : `'Tout musulman qui perd trois
                de ses enfants n'ayant pas atteint leur majorité, Dieu le fera entrer
                au paradis grâce à Sa miséricorde accordée à eux''.




                Sahih Al-Boukhari
                CLIQUEZ: http://www.apbif.org/Pratiquer/Comportement/l'%
                E9ducation_des_enfants.htm "

                it says that Anas Malek said that the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad,
                said : "All muslim who loses three of his chidren before they are
                adults will automatically go to the paradise of Allah for that
                reason".
                Yes, this is it, you read it : even if this man is a criminal, even
                if he is Saddam Hussein, if THREE (not two, not one) of his children
                are killed before they are 18 years old, this man will go to the
                Paradise, he will have his 70 "houris" with big breasts and large
                mouth
                oh mamma mia



                --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Gabriel D. Pulgar"
                <gpulgar@y...> wrote:
                > Hi,
                > My name is Gabriel. I have been following this group for a short
                > while now and I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think
                > responsible Islamic leaders don't speak out to correct the negative
                > image radicals are making for the general public? I asked myself if
                > a Christian group held women and children in front of military
                > targets, would someone speak out against it...and frankly I don't
                > know... but I hope someone would. I would like to hear from anyone,
                > using small words please- not Steiner talk- so a common guy can
                > understand.
                >
                > Thank you and bye for now.
              • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                ... responsible Islamic leaders don t speak out to correct the negative image radicals are making for the general public? I asked myself if a Christian group
                Message 7 of 29 , Apr 2 7:45 AM
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                  >>>I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think
                  responsible Islamic leaders don't speak out to correct the negative
                  image radicals are making for the general public? I asked myself if
                  a Christian group held women and children in front of military
                  targets, would someone speak out against it...


                  sarahwh@... writes:
                  Gabriel,
                  Your question comes from the 'religious/cultural relativist' stance that is popular today. Most people in the west don't know much about Islam and think it is just another religion like christianity or buddhism. 
                  The simple fact is that if the religious leaders speak out against certain actions they are going against the Koran, and risk their lives because the Koran calls for islamic dissenters to be killed. While Mohammad is the prophet of the Koran, like Jesus is to the Bible, they are at opposite poles. Mohammad commited purposeful mass murders and killings of innocents - I think it went into the thousands - in the name of Allah, as well as many other awful things. He called for killing of Jews and other infidels.... Jesus and Paul of the NT did not kill or hurt anyone - in fact they called for understanding, forgiveness, kindness, love the enemy, don't throw the first stone, take the log out of one's own eye, turn the other cheek and so on. The two religions just don't compare. Also, 98% of muslims are literalists (according to the islamic studies professor at ANU); in fact it is very difficult to take islam any other way while the myth of religious/cultural/moral relativism prevails. 
                  If you want to explore this question further, go to www.secularislam.org which is a site run by intellectuals of moslem birth who want to explain the truth about Islam to westerners, and about why there is so much violence, poverty, illiteracy, ignorance etc in their nations and they explain how it is tied to islamic thinking. While most moslems are in denial and will become very defensive if questioned on a deeper level, there are others who are fighting hard to Reform islamic thinking and they need our support. But the religious equivalence myth only keeps us all bogged in the quagmire of blindness and denial.
                  Sarah


                  *******Yes, it's the result of an unfortunate ethnocentrism, in which people raised with Western values unconsciously feel that everyone else has those same values, which is not the case. In fact, in most of the world our Western way of looking at things is the exception, not the rule; it's the result of the Christ working into European humanity and gradually raising people's souls up. That's the difference between the Judeo-Christian heritage and eastern religions.
                     A few people on this list trapped in this "religious equivalence myth" will just have their anger and other irrational feelings stirred up by these exchanges, but I'm proud to see this group struggling through to a real understanding of what lies behind the events of our times. Realistic thinking is so important.
                  -Starman

                • lightsearcher1
                  Here please find an exultant celebration ... THE PICTURE HERE IS THAT THE WORLD-ENGULFING DARKNESS CAUSED BY ISLAM AND ITS INNATE EVIL ARE NOT REALLY INHERENT
                  Message 8 of 29 , Apr 2 10:21 AM
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                    Here please find an
                    exultant celebration
                    of the liberal mind:

                    --- SRCwrote:

                    > Dear Gabriel: My opinion is that
                    > Islam is caught in a reactionary cycle...

                    THE PICTURE HERE IS THAT THE WORLD-ENGULFING
                    DARKNESS CAUSED BY ISLAM AND ITS INNATE EVIL
                    ARE NOT REALLY INHERENT WITHIN THE MUSLIM PROJECT I
                    TSELF...RATHER, NICE" and "GOOD" ISLAM IS A TEMPORARY
                    VICTIM OF EXTERNAL BAD THINGS PERSECUTING
                    THIS NICE RELIGION OF PEACE...that's what SRC
                    is saying here.

                    > Islam has a glorious history, but suffered a
                    > grievous blow from the Mongol invasions...

                    SAME SONG, DIFFERENT THEME: "POOR BABY ISLAM IS NICE,
                    BUT THE POOR CHILD WAS OFFENDED FROM WITHOUT"

                    > Its relationship with Europe
                    > is complicated, to say the least.

                    YES, JUST LIKE ANY RELATIONSHIP IS COMPLICATED BY
                    THE TYRANT OVER AGAINST THE VICTIM OF HIS TYRANNICAL
                    AMBITIONS

                    > This is one area in which there are
                    > certainly no easy, simple answers....

                    HERE IT IS ! THE TYPICAL CHANT OF CANT
                    FROM THE TOP OF MT. OLYMPUS:

                    - "Further Research is Needed!"
                    - "It's very Complicated !"
                    - "Judgment should be witheld!"

                    - Finally, who are we pacifist liberals to make
                    a judgment based on observable facts? -- It would
                    not be NICE to make the JUDGMENT forced upon us
                    by the truth, so we'll just go ahead and say
                    it's "CoMpLiCaTeD"

                    > Major transforming forces are working through
                    > all departments of global culture, ours as well
                    > as theirs...

                    DO YOU SEE THE LIBERAL THOUGHT PROCESS ? -- DEAL IN
                    THE TRAFFIC-ING OF BLOODLESS ABSTRACTIONS - "forces" -
                    SO AS TO AVOID ANY RECOGNITION and/or ASSIGNMENT
                    OF INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY WHERE IT BELONGS.

                    > Whatever the output will be, it will
                    > depend in large part upon our input...

                    OH, WAIT, MAYBE WE HERE SURELY CAN MAKE A SLIPPERY
                    JUDGMENT...JUST AS LONG AS I BLAME THE WEST
                    AND THE UNITED STATES FOR ISLAM'S RESPONSIBILITY -
                    BECAUSE ITS REALLY * WE * IN THE WEST WHO ARE
                    THE BAD GUYS AND THE "ROOT CAUSE" OF ALL ISLAM'S PROBLEMS

                    > It behooves us all to be on our best behaviour...

                    THE MORAL SLUDGE FLOODS FORTH AFRESH FROM THE
                    LIBERAL FRONTAL LOBE -- ANOTHER JUDGMENT SLIPS
                    OUT, BUT RATHER THAN HOLDING THE TOTALITARIAN
                    Q'URAN AND ITS RAPISTS AND HAND-CHOPPERS AND
                    GANGSTERS ACCOUNTABLE...IT'S WE..AND NOT ISLAM,
                    THAT NEEDS TO TURN OVER A NEW LEAF

                    . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

                    Awake ! Behold ! Attend !

                    The Lord of Hosts and King of Kings threatens to
                    spew forth the temperature-less sludge of your brains
                    from his mouth.

                    . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
                  • rogerwaters88
                    Are there any lecture courses or other references where Steiner gives indications concerning Islam ?
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 26, 2008
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                      Are there any lecture courses or other references where Steiner gives
                      indications concerning Islam ?
                    • Stephen Hale
                      ... http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Excursus/19110313p01.html The Moon-religion of Jahve and its Reflection in Arabism. The Penetration of the
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 27, 2008
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                        --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "rogerwaters88"
                        <rogerwaters88@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Are there any lecture courses or other references where Steiner gives
                        > indications concerning Islam ?


                        http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Excursus/19110313p01.html

                        "The Moon-religion of Jahve and its Reflection in Arabism. The
                        Penetration of the Buddha-Mercury Stream into Rosicrucianism."

                        This lecture describes the polarity of the Jahve known to the Hebrews,
                        expressed in the Full Moon, and the "cult of the crescent" worshipped
                        by Islam. It is well worth the study as it also includes why a Mercury
                        Stream must be forged in our time to replace the old buddha stream that
                        is now of the past, yet still clinged to, even with Christianity and
                        its present world view.

                        Steve
                      • Robert Mason
                        ... If you look at the links at the bottom of this page, you can see that there was a discussion of Islam a few years ago. You might find something useful in
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 27, 2008
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                          --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "rogerwaters88"
                          <rogerwaters88@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Are there any lecture courses or other references where Steiner gives
                          > indications concerning Islam ?

                          --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "rogerwaters88"
                          <rogerwaters88@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Are there any lecture courses or other references where Steiner gives
                          > indications concerning Islam ?

                          If you look at the links at the bottom of this page,
                          you can see that there was a discussion of Islam a
                          few years ago. You might find something useful in
                          there somewhere, and probably some more that is not
                          so useful.

                          Steiner did often discuss Islam, usually mixed in
                          with discussion of what he called "Arabism" -- a
                          related but not strictly equilavent concept. For
                          instance, in *Karmic Relationships*:
                          http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19240316p01.html
                          et seq., he shows how "Arabism" arose, was
                          repulsed by Europe, and then came into Europe
                          through the reincarnation of "Arab" individualities.

                          He did discuss Islam in relation to the "666"
                          principle in the lectures to the Christian
                          Community priests:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/36719
                          (follow the links at the bottom of that page),
                          but *caveat*: this text does not come from
                          stenographic records but was reconstructed from
                          various notes.

                          RS often discussed how modern science arose through
                          reincarnated and transformed "Arabism", for instance:
                          "Science only reawakened during the time of the Renaissance. What
                          Greece and Rome had started became Arabic wisdom; it became the spirit
                          of Mohammedanism. Arabism then spread from Spain into Europe. This
                          science is outstanding with regard to everything directly relating to
                          the sensible-sensual world. The science that became a powerful stimulus
                          for European science, that influenced Bacon and Spinoza, [See Note 7]
                          arises from Spanish Arabism. It comes from Spain. However, it cannot
                          rise above a pantheism that is unable to reach concrete spiritual
                          beings. Arabism did not arrive at the concrete. It ascended to the
                          sensible human being but what was seen beyond that was only an abstract
                          divine unity. It was not known what this unity is. A poor and
                          comfortable world view! There is no knowledge of the spirit if it is
                          summed up in a unity. Therein lies the poverty of pantheism."
                          http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19090514p01.html;mark=131,51,59#WN_mark

                          He also discussed how this "Arabism" became the
                          carrier of a diluted Soratic culture from the
                          Academy at Jundi Sabur. This is in the cycle
                          *Three Streams in Evolution*; I haven't found this
                          online. Here is something that I previously
                          wrote on this theme:

                          >>The big event , known to history, of the Seventh Century was the rise
                          of Islam. Another event, not so famous but still known to history, was
                          the transfer of ancient Greek philosophy (especially Aristotle's works,
                          probably including the lost work on alchemy) to the Academy of Jundi
                          Sabur (near present-day Baghdad). Following the expulsion of the
                          philosophers from Syrian Edessa in 489 AD and from Athens in 529 AD,
                          the philosophers had found refuge in what was then the Persian Empire,
                          and at that Academy they pursued their calling. Then this knowledge
                          passed to the Islamic Arabs, and science of a particular bent reached a
                          high development under them, while Europe was in the "Dark Ages". Only
                          gradually, over many centuries, did this science pass over to Europe,
                          where it developed into the modern scientific revolution. Again, the
                          trend of modern science, as it has in fact developed, is Ahrimanic. The
                          direct ancestor of scientific materialism was this Arabian science,
                          which was itself derived from the Academy of Jundi Sabur. Thus, on the
                          other side of the 333 AD midpoint from the Birth in Palestine was the
                          rise of an active materialistic, anti-Christian world view in Jundi
                          Sabur.
                          >>Occult history (as given by Steiner) reveals how this came about:
                          Sorat intended to approach physical manifestation in 666 AD at Jundi
                          Sabur, and to bestow upon the philosophers there a super-human
                          knowledge. This knowledge was to consist of everything that mankind,
                          under the plan of the regular Gods, was to learn through its own
                          efforts by the height of the present, Consciousness Soul Epoch. This
                          epoch began in 1413 AD, so its midpoint will be 2493 AD. In other
                          words, Sorat wanted to give to mankind, prematurely and without the
                          requisite human effort and experience, the knowledge that would be
                          right and healthy for mankind to achieve through work and evolution by
                          the middle of the Third Millennium. The regular Gods' plan for the
                          Consciousness Soul Epoch is for mankind to acquire, through self-
                          education and self-discipline, the free, conscious, individualized
                          human personality. If the mankind of the Seventh Century had been given
                          this advanced knowledge at that immature stage of development, when
                          people could not think in full consciousness, the result would have
                          been disastrous. Just consider how much evil mankind has done with the
                          science we have acquired up to now, at our present stage of maturity
                          (or immaturity), and then try to imagine what the relatively primitive
                          people of the Seventh Century would have done with the science of 2493
                          AD. -- This picture is bad enough, but we need to recall Steiner's
                          occult insights to begin to get the whole picture. If Sorat had
                          succeeded, Men would have lost the possibility of developing our true
                          nature, and would have become egotistic, animalistic automata, with no
                          possibility of further development. We would have become earth-bound,
                          and the earth could never then pass over to the Jupiter, Venus, and
                          Vulcan stages. The normal Gods' plan would have been seriously
                          hindered, and Men would have lost their due and timely opportunity to
                          become Spirits of Freedom and Love. -- However, the rise of Islam
                          thwarted this plan of Sorat. It is a deep, mysterious paradox that
                          Islam, which was, and is, opposed to Christianity in many ways, also in
                          effect worked jointly with the Christ-impulse in history, by
                          blanketing, by "skimming the cream off", this Sorat-science, and by
                          watering it down. Still, this science survived, and has worked on into
                          the present day, but the worst was averted, for those times. The
                          weakened Jundi Sabur impulse, as a distorted quasi-Aristotelianism,
                          passed to the Arabs, over Africa and Spain, to France, England, and
                          through the monasteries (e.g. Roger Bacon) back over to the Continent.
                          The "Realism" of the Medieval scholastics (especially the revived
                          Aristotelianism of Thomas Aquinas) opposed this Arabian influence,
                          somewhat correctly seeing it as inimical to Christianity; but with the
                          decline and decadence of Medieval Aristotelianism, and with the dawn of
                          modern, anti-Aristotelian "empiricism" (e.g. Francis Bacon), the
                          diluted, but still powerful, Sorat-science came to dominate world-
                          culture.<<
                          >>The ruling Time Spirit, since 1879 AD, is now the Sun-Archangel
                          Michael (the "Countenance of Christ"). His previous rulership
                          encompassed the time of Aristotle and Alexander. Michael is the
                          administrator of Cosmic Intelligence, and a promoter of
                          cosmopolitanism. Ideas to Plato had been living spiritual beings,
                          attainable in higher vision. His pupil Aristotle put this pictorial
                          wisdom into conceptual thoughts, suitable for the age of lost
                          clairvoyance; Alexander carried this Greek thought-culture into the
                          wider world -- both in the service of Michael. But this ancient Greek
                          thinking was not experienced as coming from within the Man; it was
                          rather experienced as coming, like perceptions, from the outside, a
                          cosmic Pan-Intelligence. Later, this Aristotelianism was carried over
                          to Jundi Sabur, and thence into Arabian/Muslim culture. Perhaps the
                          most brilliant and influential proponent of this Arabian culture were
                          the Caliph Haroun al Rashid and his associates, in the Eighth Century
                          AD. This culture was, as indicated above, brilliant in a way, but was
                          also anti-evolutionary in that it failed to appreciate the Christ-
                          Impulse and was infected with the Sorat/Ahriman influence from Jundi
                          Sabur. Around this time the cosmic Intelligence began to "fall to
                          earth", out of the rule of Michael and in the "heads" of Men; the Pan-
                          Intelligence becoming individualized, personal intelligence. This
                          process was a preparation for what was to culminate after the dawn of
                          the Consciousness Soul Epoch in the Fifteenth Century: that Men were to
                          experience their thoughts as coming from out of themselves, as a
                          personal intelligence in individual freedom. . . .<<
                          In these same lectures RS said something to the effect that
                          the origin of Mohammedanism was inspired by spirits that
                          were opposed but still somehow connected to the Christ
                          influence. I still haven't figured out exactly which spirits
                          he was talking about.

                          Robert M
                        • carol
                          Re: «...In these same lectures RS said something to the effect that the origin of Mohammedanism was inspired by spirits that were opposed but still somehow
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 27, 2008
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                             Re: «...In these same lectures RS said something to the effect that the origin of Mohammedanism was inspired by spirits that were opposed but still somehow connected to the Christ influence. I still haven't figured out exactly which spirits he was talking about....»

                            I know that the mix is obscure and complex,  but I'd like to place a couple of concepts foreward on the subject.

                            Could be,  not altogether, but perhaps a good part, Spiritual Beings overlooking folk souls. Ex. there's no close (in terms of time), direct link between 'Arabism/Mohammedism' and  the folk thread which brought Christianity forth – as a supersensible/sensible realitiy.

                            It could then be Spiritual Beings overlooking  folk souls - however,  these Spritual Beings having  distinct affiliage with other Spirit Beings ex.  in a capacity of servitude, concession.  Thus,  one would speak of Spiritual Beings of the 2nd Hierarchies in interplay with others -  and perhaps  the great difference  arises in the particularities of the  relationships/configuration with some of these ' others'.

                            In the immediacy, I certainly can see a clear distinction, on the folk soul  front, in terms of cultural impulses – and yet, this particular  folk soul (if that is indeed what one finds creating a divide) cannot not despise Christianity altogether, for Christianity refers itself to the equation of 6/7 of the Elohim – and these Spirit Beings would, by nature, ultimately refer back to this equation as well.

                            Ex. In practical, every day life, a Muslim will normally identify- with the greates of ease - with Christian ideals.

                            Thus,  a paradox arises on the subtlest of levels -  in Mohammedism, we have a forcing forward of   an outwardly  oriented vision,  all the while furnishing  a distinct yet very remote  assistance ( almost devachanic) to Christianity -  a kind of assistance which Judaism ( 's distinct configuration) cannot reach, nor furnish.  (This one,  just as Christianity has shown throughout the centuries,  must contend with a downside dimension to it's nature -  an inherent weekness  ) ...

                            That's all I can come up with for now,  carol.

                             

                             

                             

                             

                             


                            --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Mason" <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "rogerwaters88"
                            > rogerwaters88@ wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Are there any lecture courses or other references where Steiner gives
                            > > indications concerning Islam ?
                            >
                            > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "rogerwaters88"
                            > rogerwaters88@ wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Are there any lecture courses or other references where Steiner gives
                            > > indications concerning Islam ?
                            >
                            > If you look at the links at the bottom of this page,
                            > you can see that there was a discussion of Islam a
                            > few years ago. You might find something useful in
                            > there somewhere, and probably some more that is not
                            > so useful.
                            >
                            > Steiner did often discuss Islam, usually mixed in
                            > with discussion of what he called "Arabism" -- a
                            > related but not strictly equilavent concept. For
                            > instance, in *Karmic Relationships*:
                            > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19240316p01.html
                            > et seq., he shows how "Arabism" arose, was
                            > repulsed by Europe, and then came into Europe
                            > through the reincarnation of "Arab" individualities.
                            >
                            > He did discuss Islam in relation to the "666"
                            > principle in the lectures to the Christian
                            > Community priests:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/36719
                            > (follow the links at the bottom of that page),
                            > but *caveat*: this text does not come from
                            > stenographic records but was reconstructed from
                            > various notes.
                            >
                            > RS often discussed how modern science arose through
                            > reincarnated and transformed "Arabism", for instance:
                            > "Science only reawakened during the time of the Renaissance. What
                            > Greece and Rome had started became Arabic wisdom; it became the spirit
                            > of Mohammedanism. Arabism then spread from Spain into Europe. This
                            > science is outstanding with regard to everything directly relating to
                            > the sensible-sensual world. The science that became a powerful stimulus
                            > for European science, that influenced Bacon and Spinoza, [See Note 7]
                            > arises from Spanish Arabism. It comes from Spain. However, it cannot
                            > rise above a pantheism that is unable to reach concrete spiritual
                            > beings. Arabism did not arrive at the concrete. It ascended to the
                            > sensible human being but what was seen beyond that was only an abstract
                            > divine unity. It was not known what this unity is. A poor and
                            > comfortable world view! There is no knowledge of the spirit if it is
                            > summed up in a unity. Therein lies the poverty of pantheism."
                            > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19090514p01.html;mark=131,51,59#WN_mark
                            >
                            > He also discussed how this "Arabism" became the
                            > carrier of a diluted Soratic culture from the
                            > Academy at Jundi Sabur. This is in the cycle
                            > *Three Streams in Evolution*; I haven't found this
                            > online. Here is something that I previously
                            > wrote on this theme:
                            >
                            > >>The big event , known to history, of the Seventh Century was the rise
                            > of Islam. Another event, not so famous but still known to history, was
                            > the transfer of ancient Greek philosophy (especially Aristotle's works,
                            > probably including the lost work on alchemy) to the Academy of Jundi
                            > Sabur (near present-day Baghdad). Following the expulsion of the
                            > philosophers from Syrian Edessa in 489 AD and from Athens in 529 AD,
                            > the philosophers had found refuge in what was then the Persian Empire,
                            > and at that Academy they pursued their calling. Then this knowledge
                            > passed to the Islamic Arabs, and science of a particular bent reached a
                            > high development under them, while Europe was in the "Dark Ages". Only
                            > gradually, over many centuries, did this science pass over to Europe,
                            > where it developed into the modern scientific revolution. Again, the
                            > trend of modern science, as it has in fact developed, is Ahrimanic. The
                            > direct ancestor of scientific materialism was this Arabian science,
                            > which was itself derived from the Academy of Jundi Sabur. Thus, on the
                            > other side of the 333 AD midpoint from the Birth in Palestine was the
                            > rise of an active materialistic, anti-Christian world view in Jundi
                            > Sabur.
                            > >>Occult history (as given by Steiner) reveals how this came about:
                            > Sorat intended to approach physical manifestation in 666 AD at Jundi
                            > Sabur, and to bestow upon the philosophers there a super-human
                            > knowledge. This knowledge was to consist of everything that mankind,
                            > under the plan of the regular Gods, was to learn through its own
                            > efforts by the height of the present, Consciousness Soul Epoch. This
                            > epoch began in 1413 AD, so its midpoint will be 2493 AD. In other
                            > words, Sorat wanted to give to mankind, prematurely and without the
                            > requisite human effort and experience, the knowledge that would be
                            > right and healthy for mankind to achieve through work and evolution by
                            > the middle of the Third Millennium. The regular Gods' plan for the
                            > Consciousness Soul Epoch is for mankind to acquire, through self-
                            > education and self-discipline, the free, conscious, individualized
                            > human personality. If the mankind of the Seventh Century had been given
                            > this advanced knowledge at that immature stage of development, when
                            > people could not think in full consciousness, the result would have
                            > been disastrous. Just consider how much evil mankind has done with the
                            > science we have acquired up to now, at our present stage of maturity
                            > (or immaturity), and then try to imagine what the relatively primitive
                            > people of the Seventh Century would have done with the science of 2493
                            > AD. -- This picture is bad enough, but we need to recall Steiner's
                            > occult insights to begin to get the whole picture. If Sorat had
                            > succeeded, Men would have lost the possibility of developing our true
                            > nature, and would have become egotistic, animalistic automata, with no
                            > possibility of further development. We would have become earth-bound,
                            > and the earth could never then pass over to the Jupiter, Venus, and
                            > Vulcan stages. The normal Gods' plan would have been seriously
                            > hindered, and Men would have lost their due and timely opportunity to
                            > become Spirits of Freedom and Love. -- However, the rise of Islam
                            > thwarted this plan of Sorat. It is a deep, mysterious paradox that
                            > Islam, which was, and is, opposed to Christianity in many ways, also in
                            > effect worked jointly with the Christ-impulse in history, by
                            > blanketing, by "skimming the cream off", this Sorat-science, and by
                            > watering it down. Still, this science survived, and has worked on into
                            > the present day, but the worst was averted, for those times. The
                            > weakened Jundi Sabur impulse, as a distorted quasi-Aristotelianism,
                            > passed to the Arabs, over Africa and Spain, to France, England, and
                            > through the monasteries (e.g. Roger Bacon) back over to the Continent.
                            > The "Realism" of the Medieval scholastics (especially the revived
                            > Aristotelianism of Thomas Aquinas) opposed this Arabian influence,
                            > somewhat correctly seeing it as inimical to Christianity; but with the
                            > decline and decadence of Medieval Aristotelianism, and with the dawn of
                            > modern, anti-Aristotelian "empiricism" (e.g. Francis Bacon), the
                            > diluted, but still powerful, Sorat-science came to dominate world-
                            > culture.<<
                            > >>The ruling Time Spirit, since 1879 AD, is now the Sun-Archangel
                            > Michael (the "Countenance of Christ"). His previous rulership
                            > encompassed the time of Aristotle and Alexander. Michael is the
                            > administrator of Cosmic Intelligence, and a promoter of
                            > cosmopolitanism. Ideas to Plato had been living spiritual beings,
                            > attainable in higher vision. His pupil Aristotle put this pictorial
                            > wisdom into conceptual thoughts, suitable for the age of lost
                            > clairvoyance; Alexander carried this Greek thought-culture into the
                            > wider world -- both in the service of Michael. But this ancient Greek
                            > thinking was not experienced as coming from within the Man; it was
                            > rather experienced as coming, like perceptions, from the outside, a
                            > cosmic Pan-Intelligence. Later, this Aristotelianism was carried over
                            > to Jundi Sabur, and thence into Arabian/Muslim culture. Perhaps the
                            > most brilliant and influential proponent of this Arabian culture were
                            > the Caliph Haroun al Rashid and his associates, in the Eighth Century
                            > AD. This culture was, as indicated above, brilliant in a way, but was
                            > also anti-evolutionary in that it failed to appreciate the Christ-
                            > Impulse and was infected with the Sorat/Ahriman influence from Jundi
                            > Sabur. Around this time the cosmic Intelligence began to "fall to
                            > earth", out of the rule of Michael and in the "heads" of Men; the Pan-
                            > Intelligence becoming individualized, personal intelligence. This
                            > process was a preparation for what was to culminate after the dawn of
                            > the Consciousness Soul Epoch in the Fifteenth Century: that Men were to
                            > experience their thoughts as coming from out of themselves, as a
                            > personal intelligence in individual freedom. . . .<<
                            > In these same lectures RS said something to the effect that
                            > the origin of Mohammedanism was inspired by spirits that
                            > were opposed but still somehow connected to the Christ
                            > influence. I still haven't figured out exactly which spirits
                            > he was talking about.
                            >
                            > Robert M
                            >

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