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Islam

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  • Gabriel D. Pulgar
    Hi, My name is Gabriel. I have been following this group for a short while now and I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think responsible Islamic leaders
    Message 1 of 29 , Apr 1, 2003
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      Hi,
      My name is Gabriel. I have been following this group for a short
      while now and I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think
      responsible Islamic leaders don't speak out to correct the negative
      image radicals are making for the general public? I asked myself if
      a Christian group held women and children in front of military
      targets, would someone speak out against it...and frankly I don't
      know... but I hope someone would. I would like to hear from anyone,
      using small words please- not Steiner talk- so a common guy can
      understand.

      Thank you and bye for now.
    • SRC
      ... That s an excellent and thought-provoking question - that is, unless one has a premanufactured opinion already in the chamber, ready to fire at all comers.
      Message 2 of 29 , Apr 1, 2003
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        Dear Gabriel:

        --- "Gabriel D. Pulgar" <gpulgar@...> wrote:
        > Hi,
        > My name is Gabriel. I have been following this group for a short
        > while now and I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think
        > responsible Islamic leaders don't speak out to correct the negative
        > image radicals are making for the general public?

        That's an excellent and thought-provoking question - that is, unless one
        has a premanufactured opinion already in the chamber, ready to fire at all
        comers.

        My opinion is that Islam is caught in a reactionary cycle that is even
        more intrenched and ingrained than we see in the Falwell
        Let's-Bring-On-the-Armageddon-by-Throwing-Gas-On-All-The-Brushfires
        lunatic fringe of Christianity.
        I also suspect that there are_ many clerics, scholars, and truly
        sssspiritual leaders in the stream who _do_ speak out (in fact, I know of
        some), but since it is in the interests of none of the major players on
        either side that they be given air-time, we see or hear little from them
        in the US.

        Islam has a glorious history, but suffered a grievous blow from the Mongol
        invasions. Its relationship with Europe is complicated, to say the least.
        This is one area in which there are certainly no easy, simple answers.
        Major transforming forces are working through all departments of global
        culture, ours as well as theirs. Whatever the output will be, it will
        depend in large part upon our input. It behooves us all to be on our best
        behaviour.

        Best Regards,

        Stephen


        =====
        "The only thing I regret about my past is the length of it. If I had to live my life again I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner." - Tallulah Bankhead

        "Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation." - Clarence Darrow

        "Those who cannot hear the music think that the dancer is mad." - Rumi

        "The victim who is able to articulate the situation of the victim has ceased to be a victim: he or she has become a threat." - James Baldwin

        __________________________________________________
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      • lightsearcher1
        My faith in the living force and virtue of the post-pot-head generations is born anew ! Gabriel, I will do what Steiner sometimes recommended - and that is to
        Message 3 of 29 , Apr 1, 2003
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          My faith in the living force and virtue
          of the post-pot-head generations is born anew !

          Gabriel, I will do what Steiner sometimes
          recommended - and that is to BASK in the QUESTION
          rather than vaulting toward some answer or other.

          And, man, am I basking !

          Thank you Archangel Gabriel, for
          your question has brought joy to
          my day and to my heart.

          . . . . . . . . . . .


          In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com,
          "Gabriel D. Pulgar" <gpulgar@y...> wrote:

          > Hi,
          > My name is Gabriel. I have been following this group for a short
          > while now and I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think
          > responsible Islamic leaders don't speak out to correct the negative
          > image radicals are making for the general public? I asked myself if
          > a Christian group held women and children in front of military
          > targets, would someone speak out against it...and frankly I don't
          > know... but I hope someone would. I would like to hear from anyone,
          > using small words please- not Steiner talk- so a common guy can
          > understand.
          >
          > Thank you and bye for now.
        • Joel Wendt
          Dear Gabriel, You ve made a big assumption, namely that no Muslim leaders have spoken out in this way. Certainly this would be very difficult to find out,
          Message 4 of 29 , Apr 1, 2003
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            Dear Gabriel,

            You've made a big assumption, namely that no Muslim leaders have spoken
            out in this way.

            Certainly this would be very difficult to find out, given that the
            major media are pretty much not giving us any news about the views of
            Muslim leaders, except in the most edited fashion.

            Here is a URL to an article about US Muslim clerics (as well as
            Christian clerics) in favor of peace.

            http://www.bet.com/articles/0,,p344gb5835-6583,00.html

            Here's one on Kuwaiti leaders views.

            http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/02020412.htm

            Here's one about Indonesian leaders disagreeing with Osama Ben Laden's
            call for attacks against US.

            http://www.abc.net.au/asiapacific/focus/asia/GoAsiaPacificFocusAsiaStories_783414.htm

            Here's the link to aljazeera, the middle east CNN, if you want to go to
            the sources instead of depend upon predigested views from American news
            agencies.

            http://aljazeera.org.uk/

            Sanity is not the sole possession of the West.

            warm regards,
            joel


            On Tue, 2003-04-01 at 16:29, Gabriel D. Pulgar wrote:
            > Hi,
            > My name is Gabriel. I have been following this group for a short
            > while now and I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think
            > responsible Islamic leaders don't speak out to correct the negative
            > image radicals are making for the general public? I asked myself if
            > a Christian group held women and children in front of military
            > targets, would someone speak out against it...and frankly I don't
            > know... but I hope someone would. I would like to hear from anyone,
            > using small words please- not Steiner talk- so a common guy can
            > understand.
          • holderlin66
            Rough Legend of the Dogwood by Bradford Riley, 1999 That mighty tree, strong in spirit, grew in the hills of Jerusalem and as it towered it knew, sure as the
            Message 5 of 29 , Apr 1, 2003
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              "Rough Legend of the Dogwood"
              by Bradford Riley, 1999

              That mighty tree, strong in spirit, grew in

              the hills of Jerusalem and as it towered

              it knew, sure as the stars shone

              livingly on it and its roots danced in

              the cosmic dance with the earth, that

              itself, a tree, was destined for some

              great purpose.



              The stars whispered it to its full leaves,

              and the wind carried the hopes like a

              fair maid drying her hair with her

              limbs. Tales were told of the time when

              the temple gates and frames to the holy of

              holy sanctuaries were given to the greatest

              of the trees. To serve man. Not like

              that TO SERVE MAN as a menu for alien

              dinner parties. No. A divine task to

              serve as a pathway to lift earth and her

              quiet citizens skyward once more.



              This one mighty tree had been spoken of

              with the elders of the planets. Night after

              night, and in the dreams of trees, the

              heavens reveal more, for the trees stand

              erect with the knowledge that they know.

              They stand as if the earth had a spine,

              and men would know it. So this tree

              had dreamed many a fair dream

              while growing in the Etheric bosom of Earth.

              Perhaps it was to be some tall Mast to some

              mighty ship that steered by the holy stars.

              Time passed, and it was given to know

              through her roots that a tingling event

              was about to occur.



              The rough cutters cut her, planed her

              and squared her, and soon it appeared it

              was a mast with her new extended cross beams,

              just as a maiden would be newly

              clothed for some wedding.

              She was elated for it was her time. Not so

              smoothed was she, some roughness

              still lingered of her former stately beauty.



              Then the nails, then the blood, and as

              the blood soaked the tree's newface, she

              felt the power of all of holy nature as in

              song and sunshine rush through her;

              and of the earliest

              primal glories, Her etheric vision saw the

              strange history of forests long gone,

              and histories where earth was smoke,

              and diamonds and coal had not

              pressed themselves back into stars.



              It was raised, she was, the gods rood,

              mighty above the land, and at that

              moment the earth herself, as ship of

              state, was now guided by the very

              sun which had given it birth.

              The Captain of the mighty vessel,

              He it was, who now steered with the tree

              together, the destiny of the earth

              herself.



              This was more than the tree could bear.

              It felt the sharp agony in the Captain's

              hands and feet; the long-silent sap wept

              in resonance, and its sorrow tingled

              with the earth's sorrow, though every

              grain and circle of its magnificent body

              ached with the agony and the joy.

              She saw the three ancient Norns arise from the ground

              like vast darkening spirits only to kneel beneath them. And

              had it a choice, then and there, she would

              never have felt the pride she felt so long ago

              at having been chosen for such a destiny.



              Even so, the Captain which was Captive

              clung with his beating heart, so

              that as the wood of some great

              instrument could hear and feel the

              mighty tones of heaven wafting and

              played by this, her master, so this tree

              wept sap and blood and blood and sap

              for the nature that would be

              and those that were gone before.

              The Captain on the Cross pulsed his

              mighty heart throbs into the wood's

              most intimate core, and all things,

              like a great musician, the tree with

              her sensitive vibrating chords shared with Him

              the most stunning

              symphony ever played by living or dead.

              Woven in the Music that held the spheres

              Were ancient Norse Words of Love-Power-Wisdom.



              Music, it is said, has tried in vain

              to find and remember in the wood, the

              strings, what the great tree heard

              as she carried the whole world's heart

              on her firm limbs. As the Cosmos sang back to the Gods,

              It is Finished!



              But the sorrow was deeper and the pathos,

              stronger than all of nature could bear.

              But the great heart that beat sung

              inwardly a new song and wove a new

              life for this now holy tree. He felt her

              sorrow and from her sorrow wove

              four new blossoms of white; and on

              those white tips he put the marks

              of the pain, where the thorns and

              the blood spattered and where the

              helping healing hands were nailed and

              those feet that softly tread the earth

              and brought down all miracles were

              sorely bruised.

              Thus four white petals

              stained at the edges of the blossom, and ever was she

              from that moment, transformed. Even as a raven would

              be to a dove, so it was that a new

              tree, always at that time of that

              dread yet highest symphony of passion

              played in the heart of the Earth,

              so dost She sing in sweetness at

              Spring.



              So companion close was she, that even

              as the faithful spirit of man and his

              closest companion, his best friend is the

              dog, so did the Dogwood come to be. A

              quiet and changed tree that ever after

              loves only Spring, and its wood would

              nevermore be used for such sacrifice.

              But if you listen, you may still hear

              the song she shared on the Rood skull

              of the world's Holy Hill. Sung frome the

              Ancient Runes of the singing Logos to

              the dying world.



              Happy Easter!
            • Sarah
              Gabriel, Your question comes from the religious/cultural relativist stance that is popular today. Most people in the west don t know much about Islam and
              Message 6 of 29 , Apr 1, 2003
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                Gabriel,
                Your question comes from the 'religious/cultural relativist' stance that is popular today. Most people in the west don't know much about Islam and think it is just another religion like christianity or buddhism.  
                 
                The simple fact is that if the religious leaders speak out against certain actions they are going against the Koran, and risk their lives because the Koran calls for islamic dissenters to be killed. While Mohammad is the prophet of the Koran, like Jesus is to the Bible, they are at opposite poles. Mohammad commited purposeful mass murders and killings of innocents - I think it went into the thousands - in the name of Allah, as well as many other awful things. He called for killing of Jews and other infidels. Only recently did Saudi Arabia make it a criminal offence to kill an 'infidel'.
                 
                Honour and revenge are more important than Humility and Forgiveness. On the other hand, Jesus and Paul of the NT did not kill or hurt anyone - in fact they called for understanding, forgiveness, kindness, love the enemy, don't throw the first stone, take the log out of one's own eye, turn the other cheek and so on. The two religions just don't compare. Also, 98% of muslims are literalists (according to the islamic studies professor at ANU); in fact it is very difficult to take islam any other way while the myth of religious/cultural/moral relativism prevails. 
                 
                If you want to explore this question further, go to www.secularislam.org which is a site run by intellectuals of moslem birth who want to explain the truth about Islam to westerners, and about why there is so much violence, poverty, illiteracy, ignorance etc in their nations and they explain how it is tied to islamic thinking. While most moslems are in denial and will become very defensive if questioned on a deeper level, there are others who are fighting hard to Reform islamic thinking and they need our support. But the religious equivalence myth only keeps us all bogged in the quagmire of blindness and denial.
                 
                Sarah
                 
                 
                 
                > Hi,
                > My name is Gabriel. I have been following this group for a
                short
                > while now and I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think
                > responsible Islamic leaders don't speak out to correct the negative
                > image radicals are making for the general public? I asked myself if
                > a Christian group held women and children in front of military
                >
                targets, would someone speak out against it...and frankly I don't
                >
                know... but I hope someone would. I would like to hear from anyone,
                >
                using small words please- not Steiner talk- so a common guy can
                >
                understand.
                >
                > Thank you and bye for now.
              • foncteur
                Because violence, war and conquest is an essential part of Islam. It is necessary, to be a good muslim, to kill pagans and atheists and to humiliate the
                Message 7 of 29 , Apr 2, 2003
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                  Because violence, war and conquest is an essential part of Islam.
                  It is necessary, to be a good muslim, to kill pagans and atheists
                  and to humiliate the dhimmis (jews and christians)
                  War is an essential part of the islamic way to perfectness.
                  Here is what I just read on a french islamic forum, it is a hadith
                  of Boukhari:
                  "
                  Le Prophète (Que la paix et la bénédiction de Dieu sur lui), rapporte
                  Anas Malek (Que Dieu l'agrée) a dit : `'Tout musulman qui perd trois
                  de ses enfants n'ayant pas atteint leur majorité, Dieu le fera entrer
                  au paradis grâce à Sa miséricorde accordée à eux''.




                  Sahih Al-Boukhari
                  CLIQUEZ: http://www.apbif.org/Pratiquer/Comportement/l'%
                  E9ducation_des_enfants.htm "

                  it says that Anas Malek said that the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad,
                  said : "All muslim who loses three of his chidren before they are
                  adults will automatically go to the paradise of Allah for that
                  reason".
                  Yes, this is it, you read it : even if this man is a criminal, even
                  if he is Saddam Hussein, if THREE (not two, not one) of his children
                  are killed before they are 18 years old, this man will go to the
                  Paradise, he will have his 70 "houris" with big breasts and large
                  mouth
                  oh mamma mia



                  --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Gabriel D. Pulgar"
                  <gpulgar@y...> wrote:
                  > Hi,
                  > My name is Gabriel. I have been following this group for a short
                  > while now and I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think
                  > responsible Islamic leaders don't speak out to correct the negative
                  > image radicals are making for the general public? I asked myself if
                  > a Christian group held women and children in front of military
                  > targets, would someone speak out against it...and frankly I don't
                  > know... but I hope someone would. I would like to hear from anyone,
                  > using small words please- not Steiner talk- so a common guy can
                  > understand.
                  >
                  > Thank you and bye for now.
                • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                  ... responsible Islamic leaders don t speak out to correct the negative image radicals are making for the general public? I asked myself if a Christian group
                  Message 8 of 29 , Apr 2, 2003
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                    >>>I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think
                    responsible Islamic leaders don't speak out to correct the negative
                    image radicals are making for the general public? I asked myself if
                    a Christian group held women and children in front of military
                    targets, would someone speak out against it...


                    sarahwh@... writes:
                    Gabriel,
                    Your question comes from the 'religious/cultural relativist' stance that is popular today. Most people in the west don't know much about Islam and think it is just another religion like christianity or buddhism. 
                    The simple fact is that if the religious leaders speak out against certain actions they are going against the Koran, and risk their lives because the Koran calls for islamic dissenters to be killed. While Mohammad is the prophet of the Koran, like Jesus is to the Bible, they are at opposite poles. Mohammad commited purposeful mass murders and killings of innocents - I think it went into the thousands - in the name of Allah, as well as many other awful things. He called for killing of Jews and other infidels.... Jesus and Paul of the NT did not kill or hurt anyone - in fact they called for understanding, forgiveness, kindness, love the enemy, don't throw the first stone, take the log out of one's own eye, turn the other cheek and so on. The two religions just don't compare. Also, 98% of muslims are literalists (according to the islamic studies professor at ANU); in fact it is very difficult to take islam any other way while the myth of religious/cultural/moral relativism prevails. 
                    If you want to explore this question further, go to www.secularislam.org which is a site run by intellectuals of moslem birth who want to explain the truth about Islam to westerners, and about why there is so much violence, poverty, illiteracy, ignorance etc in their nations and they explain how it is tied to islamic thinking. While most moslems are in denial and will become very defensive if questioned on a deeper level, there are others who are fighting hard to Reform islamic thinking and they need our support. But the religious equivalence myth only keeps us all bogged in the quagmire of blindness and denial.
                    Sarah


                    *******Yes, it's the result of an unfortunate ethnocentrism, in which people raised with Western values unconsciously feel that everyone else has those same values, which is not the case. In fact, in most of the world our Western way of looking at things is the exception, not the rule; it's the result of the Christ working into European humanity and gradually raising people's souls up. That's the difference between the Judeo-Christian heritage and eastern religions.
                       A few people on this list trapped in this "religious equivalence myth" will just have their anger and other irrational feelings stirred up by these exchanges, but I'm proud to see this group struggling through to a real understanding of what lies behind the events of our times. Realistic thinking is so important.
                    -Starman

                  • lightsearcher1
                    Here please find an exultant celebration ... THE PICTURE HERE IS THAT THE WORLD-ENGULFING DARKNESS CAUSED BY ISLAM AND ITS INNATE EVIL ARE NOT REALLY INHERENT
                    Message 9 of 29 , Apr 2, 2003
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                      Here please find an
                      exultant celebration
                      of the liberal mind:

                      --- SRCwrote:

                      > Dear Gabriel: My opinion is that
                      > Islam is caught in a reactionary cycle...

                      THE PICTURE HERE IS THAT THE WORLD-ENGULFING
                      DARKNESS CAUSED BY ISLAM AND ITS INNATE EVIL
                      ARE NOT REALLY INHERENT WITHIN THE MUSLIM PROJECT I
                      TSELF...RATHER, NICE" and "GOOD" ISLAM IS A TEMPORARY
                      VICTIM OF EXTERNAL BAD THINGS PERSECUTING
                      THIS NICE RELIGION OF PEACE...that's what SRC
                      is saying here.

                      > Islam has a glorious history, but suffered a
                      > grievous blow from the Mongol invasions...

                      SAME SONG, DIFFERENT THEME: "POOR BABY ISLAM IS NICE,
                      BUT THE POOR CHILD WAS OFFENDED FROM WITHOUT"

                      > Its relationship with Europe
                      > is complicated, to say the least.

                      YES, JUST LIKE ANY RELATIONSHIP IS COMPLICATED BY
                      THE TYRANT OVER AGAINST THE VICTIM OF HIS TYRANNICAL
                      AMBITIONS

                      > This is one area in which there are
                      > certainly no easy, simple answers....

                      HERE IT IS ! THE TYPICAL CHANT OF CANT
                      FROM THE TOP OF MT. OLYMPUS:

                      - "Further Research is Needed!"
                      - "It's very Complicated !"
                      - "Judgment should be witheld!"

                      - Finally, who are we pacifist liberals to make
                      a judgment based on observable facts? -- It would
                      not be NICE to make the JUDGMENT forced upon us
                      by the truth, so we'll just go ahead and say
                      it's "CoMpLiCaTeD"

                      > Major transforming forces are working through
                      > all departments of global culture, ours as well
                      > as theirs...

                      DO YOU SEE THE LIBERAL THOUGHT PROCESS ? -- DEAL IN
                      THE TRAFFIC-ING OF BLOODLESS ABSTRACTIONS - "forces" -
                      SO AS TO AVOID ANY RECOGNITION and/or ASSIGNMENT
                      OF INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY WHERE IT BELONGS.

                      > Whatever the output will be, it will
                      > depend in large part upon our input...

                      OH, WAIT, MAYBE WE HERE SURELY CAN MAKE A SLIPPERY
                      JUDGMENT...JUST AS LONG AS I BLAME THE WEST
                      AND THE UNITED STATES FOR ISLAM'S RESPONSIBILITY -
                      BECAUSE ITS REALLY * WE * IN THE WEST WHO ARE
                      THE BAD GUYS AND THE "ROOT CAUSE" OF ALL ISLAM'S PROBLEMS

                      > It behooves us all to be on our best behaviour...

                      THE MORAL SLUDGE FLOODS FORTH AFRESH FROM THE
                      LIBERAL FRONTAL LOBE -- ANOTHER JUDGMENT SLIPS
                      OUT, BUT RATHER THAN HOLDING THE TOTALITARIAN
                      Q'URAN AND ITS RAPISTS AND HAND-CHOPPERS AND
                      GANGSTERS ACCOUNTABLE...IT'S WE..AND NOT ISLAM,
                      THAT NEEDS TO TURN OVER A NEW LEAF

                      . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

                      Awake ! Behold ! Attend !

                      The Lord of Hosts and King of Kings threatens to
                      spew forth the temperature-less sludge of your brains
                      from his mouth.

                      . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
                    • rogerwaters88
                      Are there any lecture courses or other references where Steiner gives indications concerning Islam ?
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 26, 2008
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                        Are there any lecture courses or other references where Steiner gives
                        indications concerning Islam ?
                      • Stephen Hale
                        ... http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Excursus/19110313p01.html The Moon-religion of Jahve and its Reflection in Arabism. The Penetration of the
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 27, 2008
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                          --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "rogerwaters88"
                          <rogerwaters88@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Are there any lecture courses or other references where Steiner gives
                          > indications concerning Islam ?


                          http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Excursus/19110313p01.html

                          "The Moon-religion of Jahve and its Reflection in Arabism. The
                          Penetration of the Buddha-Mercury Stream into Rosicrucianism."

                          This lecture describes the polarity of the Jahve known to the Hebrews,
                          expressed in the Full Moon, and the "cult of the crescent" worshipped
                          by Islam. It is well worth the study as it also includes why a Mercury
                          Stream must be forged in our time to replace the old buddha stream that
                          is now of the past, yet still clinged to, even with Christianity and
                          its present world view.

                          Steve
                        • Robert Mason
                          ... If you look at the links at the bottom of this page, you can see that there was a discussion of Islam a few years ago. You might find something useful in
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 27, 2008
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                            --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "rogerwaters88"
                            <rogerwaters88@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Are there any lecture courses or other references where Steiner gives
                            > indications concerning Islam ?

                            --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "rogerwaters88"
                            <rogerwaters88@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Are there any lecture courses or other references where Steiner gives
                            > indications concerning Islam ?

                            If you look at the links at the bottom of this page,
                            you can see that there was a discussion of Islam a
                            few years ago. You might find something useful in
                            there somewhere, and probably some more that is not
                            so useful.

                            Steiner did often discuss Islam, usually mixed in
                            with discussion of what he called "Arabism" -- a
                            related but not strictly equilavent concept. For
                            instance, in *Karmic Relationships*:
                            http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19240316p01.html
                            et seq., he shows how "Arabism" arose, was
                            repulsed by Europe, and then came into Europe
                            through the reincarnation of "Arab" individualities.

                            He did discuss Islam in relation to the "666"
                            principle in the lectures to the Christian
                            Community priests:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/36719
                            (follow the links at the bottom of that page),
                            but *caveat*: this text does not come from
                            stenographic records but was reconstructed from
                            various notes.

                            RS often discussed how modern science arose through
                            reincarnated and transformed "Arabism", for instance:
                            "Science only reawakened during the time of the Renaissance. What
                            Greece and Rome had started became Arabic wisdom; it became the spirit
                            of Mohammedanism. Arabism then spread from Spain into Europe. This
                            science is outstanding with regard to everything directly relating to
                            the sensible-sensual world. The science that became a powerful stimulus
                            for European science, that influenced Bacon and Spinoza, [See Note 7]
                            arises from Spanish Arabism. It comes from Spain. However, it cannot
                            rise above a pantheism that is unable to reach concrete spiritual
                            beings. Arabism did not arrive at the concrete. It ascended to the
                            sensible human being but what was seen beyond that was only an abstract
                            divine unity. It was not known what this unity is. A poor and
                            comfortable world view! There is no knowledge of the spirit if it is
                            summed up in a unity. Therein lies the poverty of pantheism."
                            http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19090514p01.html;mark=131,51,59#WN_mark

                            He also discussed how this "Arabism" became the
                            carrier of a diluted Soratic culture from the
                            Academy at Jundi Sabur. This is in the cycle
                            *Three Streams in Evolution*; I haven't found this
                            online. Here is something that I previously
                            wrote on this theme:

                            >>The big event , known to history, of the Seventh Century was the rise
                            of Islam. Another event, not so famous but still known to history, was
                            the transfer of ancient Greek philosophy (especially Aristotle's works,
                            probably including the lost work on alchemy) to the Academy of Jundi
                            Sabur (near present-day Baghdad). Following the expulsion of the
                            philosophers from Syrian Edessa in 489 AD and from Athens in 529 AD,
                            the philosophers had found refuge in what was then the Persian Empire,
                            and at that Academy they pursued their calling. Then this knowledge
                            passed to the Islamic Arabs, and science of a particular bent reached a
                            high development under them, while Europe was in the "Dark Ages". Only
                            gradually, over many centuries, did this science pass over to Europe,
                            where it developed into the modern scientific revolution. Again, the
                            trend of modern science, as it has in fact developed, is Ahrimanic. The
                            direct ancestor of scientific materialism was this Arabian science,
                            which was itself derived from the Academy of Jundi Sabur. Thus, on the
                            other side of the 333 AD midpoint from the Birth in Palestine was the
                            rise of an active materialistic, anti-Christian world view in Jundi
                            Sabur.
                            >>Occult history (as given by Steiner) reveals how this came about:
                            Sorat intended to approach physical manifestation in 666 AD at Jundi
                            Sabur, and to bestow upon the philosophers there a super-human
                            knowledge. This knowledge was to consist of everything that mankind,
                            under the plan of the regular Gods, was to learn through its own
                            efforts by the height of the present, Consciousness Soul Epoch. This
                            epoch began in 1413 AD, so its midpoint will be 2493 AD. In other
                            words, Sorat wanted to give to mankind, prematurely and without the
                            requisite human effort and experience, the knowledge that would be
                            right and healthy for mankind to achieve through work and evolution by
                            the middle of the Third Millennium. The regular Gods' plan for the
                            Consciousness Soul Epoch is for mankind to acquire, through self-
                            education and self-discipline, the free, conscious, individualized
                            human personality. If the mankind of the Seventh Century had been given
                            this advanced knowledge at that immature stage of development, when
                            people could not think in full consciousness, the result would have
                            been disastrous. Just consider how much evil mankind has done with the
                            science we have acquired up to now, at our present stage of maturity
                            (or immaturity), and then try to imagine what the relatively primitive
                            people of the Seventh Century would have done with the science of 2493
                            AD. -- This picture is bad enough, but we need to recall Steiner's
                            occult insights to begin to get the whole picture. If Sorat had
                            succeeded, Men would have lost the possibility of developing our true
                            nature, and would have become egotistic, animalistic automata, with no
                            possibility of further development. We would have become earth-bound,
                            and the earth could never then pass over to the Jupiter, Venus, and
                            Vulcan stages. The normal Gods' plan would have been seriously
                            hindered, and Men would have lost their due and timely opportunity to
                            become Spirits of Freedom and Love. -- However, the rise of Islam
                            thwarted this plan of Sorat. It is a deep, mysterious paradox that
                            Islam, which was, and is, opposed to Christianity in many ways, also in
                            effect worked jointly with the Christ-impulse in history, by
                            blanketing, by "skimming the cream off", this Sorat-science, and by
                            watering it down. Still, this science survived, and has worked on into
                            the present day, but the worst was averted, for those times. The
                            weakened Jundi Sabur impulse, as a distorted quasi-Aristotelianism,
                            passed to the Arabs, over Africa and Spain, to France, England, and
                            through the monasteries (e.g. Roger Bacon) back over to the Continent.
                            The "Realism" of the Medieval scholastics (especially the revived
                            Aristotelianism of Thomas Aquinas) opposed this Arabian influence,
                            somewhat correctly seeing it as inimical to Christianity; but with the
                            decline and decadence of Medieval Aristotelianism, and with the dawn of
                            modern, anti-Aristotelian "empiricism" (e.g. Francis Bacon), the
                            diluted, but still powerful, Sorat-science came to dominate world-
                            culture.<<
                            >>The ruling Time Spirit, since 1879 AD, is now the Sun-Archangel
                            Michael (the "Countenance of Christ"). His previous rulership
                            encompassed the time of Aristotle and Alexander. Michael is the
                            administrator of Cosmic Intelligence, and a promoter of
                            cosmopolitanism. Ideas to Plato had been living spiritual beings,
                            attainable in higher vision. His pupil Aristotle put this pictorial
                            wisdom into conceptual thoughts, suitable for the age of lost
                            clairvoyance; Alexander carried this Greek thought-culture into the
                            wider world -- both in the service of Michael. But this ancient Greek
                            thinking was not experienced as coming from within the Man; it was
                            rather experienced as coming, like perceptions, from the outside, a
                            cosmic Pan-Intelligence. Later, this Aristotelianism was carried over
                            to Jundi Sabur, and thence into Arabian/Muslim culture. Perhaps the
                            most brilliant and influential proponent of this Arabian culture were
                            the Caliph Haroun al Rashid and his associates, in the Eighth Century
                            AD. This culture was, as indicated above, brilliant in a way, but was
                            also anti-evolutionary in that it failed to appreciate the Christ-
                            Impulse and was infected with the Sorat/Ahriman influence from Jundi
                            Sabur. Around this time the cosmic Intelligence began to "fall to
                            earth", out of the rule of Michael and in the "heads" of Men; the Pan-
                            Intelligence becoming individualized, personal intelligence. This
                            process was a preparation for what was to culminate after the dawn of
                            the Consciousness Soul Epoch in the Fifteenth Century: that Men were to
                            experience their thoughts as coming from out of themselves, as a
                            personal intelligence in individual freedom. . . .<<
                            In these same lectures RS said something to the effect that
                            the origin of Mohammedanism was inspired by spirits that
                            were opposed but still somehow connected to the Christ
                            influence. I still haven't figured out exactly which spirits
                            he was talking about.

                            Robert M
                          • carol
                            Re: «...In these same lectures RS said something to the effect that the origin of Mohammedanism was inspired by spirits that were opposed but still somehow
                            Message 13 of 29 , Oct 27, 2008
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                               Re: «...In these same lectures RS said something to the effect that the origin of Mohammedanism was inspired by spirits that were opposed but still somehow connected to the Christ influence. I still haven't figured out exactly which spirits he was talking about....»

                              I know that the mix is obscure and complex,  but I'd like to place a couple of concepts foreward on the subject.

                              Could be,  not altogether, but perhaps a good part, Spiritual Beings overlooking folk souls. Ex. there's no close (in terms of time), direct link between 'Arabism/Mohammedism' and  the folk thread which brought Christianity forth – as a supersensible/sensible realitiy.

                              It could then be Spiritual Beings overlooking  folk souls - however,  these Spritual Beings having  distinct affiliage with other Spirit Beings ex.  in a capacity of servitude, concession.  Thus,  one would speak of Spiritual Beings of the 2nd Hierarchies in interplay with others -  and perhaps  the great difference  arises in the particularities of the  relationships/configuration with some of these ' others'.

                              In the immediacy, I certainly can see a clear distinction, on the folk soul  front, in terms of cultural impulses – and yet, this particular  folk soul (if that is indeed what one finds creating a divide) cannot not despise Christianity altogether, for Christianity refers itself to the equation of 6/7 of the Elohim – and these Spirit Beings would, by nature, ultimately refer back to this equation as well.

                              Ex. In practical, every day life, a Muslim will normally identify- with the greates of ease - with Christian ideals.

                              Thus,  a paradox arises on the subtlest of levels -  in Mohammedism, we have a forcing forward of   an outwardly  oriented vision,  all the while furnishing  a distinct yet very remote  assistance ( almost devachanic) to Christianity -  a kind of assistance which Judaism ( 's distinct configuration) cannot reach, nor furnish.  (This one,  just as Christianity has shown throughout the centuries,  must contend with a downside dimension to it's nature -  an inherent weekness  ) ...

                              That's all I can come up with for now,  carol.

                               

                               

                               

                               

                               


                              --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Mason" <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "rogerwaters88"
                              > rogerwaters88@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Are there any lecture courses or other references where Steiner gives
                              > > indications concerning Islam ?
                              >
                              > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "rogerwaters88"
                              > rogerwaters88@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Are there any lecture courses or other references where Steiner gives
                              > > indications concerning Islam ?
                              >
                              > If you look at the links at the bottom of this page,
                              > you can see that there was a discussion of Islam a
                              > few years ago. You might find something useful in
                              > there somewhere, and probably some more that is not
                              > so useful.
                              >
                              > Steiner did often discuss Islam, usually mixed in
                              > with discussion of what he called "Arabism" -- a
                              > related but not strictly equilavent concept. For
                              > instance, in *Karmic Relationships*:
                              > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19240316p01.html
                              > et seq., he shows how "Arabism" arose, was
                              > repulsed by Europe, and then came into Europe
                              > through the reincarnation of "Arab" individualities.
                              >
                              > He did discuss Islam in relation to the "666"
                              > principle in the lectures to the Christian
                              > Community priests:
                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/36719
                              > (follow the links at the bottom of that page),
                              > but *caveat*: this text does not come from
                              > stenographic records but was reconstructed from
                              > various notes.
                              >
                              > RS often discussed how modern science arose through
                              > reincarnated and transformed "Arabism", for instance:
                              > "Science only reawakened during the time of the Renaissance. What
                              > Greece and Rome had started became Arabic wisdom; it became the spirit
                              > of Mohammedanism. Arabism then spread from Spain into Europe. This
                              > science is outstanding with regard to everything directly relating to
                              > the sensible-sensual world. The science that became a powerful stimulus
                              > for European science, that influenced Bacon and Spinoza, [See Note 7]
                              > arises from Spanish Arabism. It comes from Spain. However, it cannot
                              > rise above a pantheism that is unable to reach concrete spiritual
                              > beings. Arabism did not arrive at the concrete. It ascended to the
                              > sensible human being but what was seen beyond that was only an abstract
                              > divine unity. It was not known what this unity is. A poor and
                              > comfortable world view! There is no knowledge of the spirit if it is
                              > summed up in a unity. Therein lies the poverty of pantheism."
                              > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19090514p01.html;mark=131,51,59#WN_mark
                              >
                              > He also discussed how this "Arabism" became the
                              > carrier of a diluted Soratic culture from the
                              > Academy at Jundi Sabur. This is in the cycle
                              > *Three Streams in Evolution*; I haven't found this
                              > online. Here is something that I previously
                              > wrote on this theme:
                              >
                              > >>The big event , known to history, of the Seventh Century was the rise
                              > of Islam. Another event, not so famous but still known to history, was
                              > the transfer of ancient Greek philosophy (especially Aristotle's works,
                              > probably including the lost work on alchemy) to the Academy of Jundi
                              > Sabur (near present-day Baghdad). Following the expulsion of the
                              > philosophers from Syrian Edessa in 489 AD and from Athens in 529 AD,
                              > the philosophers had found refuge in what was then the Persian Empire,
                              > and at that Academy they pursued their calling. Then this knowledge
                              > passed to the Islamic Arabs, and science of a particular bent reached a
                              > high development under them, while Europe was in the "Dark Ages". Only
                              > gradually, over many centuries, did this science pass over to Europe,
                              > where it developed into the modern scientific revolution. Again, the
                              > trend of modern science, as it has in fact developed, is Ahrimanic. The
                              > direct ancestor of scientific materialism was this Arabian science,
                              > which was itself derived from the Academy of Jundi Sabur. Thus, on the
                              > other side of the 333 AD midpoint from the Birth in Palestine was the
                              > rise of an active materialistic, anti-Christian world view in Jundi
                              > Sabur.
                              > >>Occult history (as given by Steiner) reveals how this came about:
                              > Sorat intended to approach physical manifestation in 666 AD at Jundi
                              > Sabur, and to bestow upon the philosophers there a super-human
                              > knowledge. This knowledge was to consist of everything that mankind,
                              > under the plan of the regular Gods, was to learn through its own
                              > efforts by the height of the present, Consciousness Soul Epoch. This
                              > epoch began in 1413 AD, so its midpoint will be 2493 AD. In other
                              > words, Sorat wanted to give to mankind, prematurely and without the
                              > requisite human effort and experience, the knowledge that would be
                              > right and healthy for mankind to achieve through work and evolution by
                              > the middle of the Third Millennium. The regular Gods' plan for the
                              > Consciousness Soul Epoch is for mankind to acquire, through self-
                              > education and self-discipline, the free, conscious, individualized
                              > human personality. If the mankind of the Seventh Century had been given
                              > this advanced knowledge at that immature stage of development, when
                              > people could not think in full consciousness, the result would have
                              > been disastrous. Just consider how much evil mankind has done with the
                              > science we have acquired up to now, at our present stage of maturity
                              > (or immaturity), and then try to imagine what the relatively primitive
                              > people of the Seventh Century would have done with the science of 2493
                              > AD. -- This picture is bad enough, but we need to recall Steiner's
                              > occult insights to begin to get the whole picture. If Sorat had
                              > succeeded, Men would have lost the possibility of developing our true
                              > nature, and would have become egotistic, animalistic automata, with no
                              > possibility of further development. We would have become earth-bound,
                              > and the earth could never then pass over to the Jupiter, Venus, and
                              > Vulcan stages. The normal Gods' plan would have been seriously
                              > hindered, and Men would have lost their due and timely opportunity to
                              > become Spirits of Freedom and Love. -- However, the rise of Islam
                              > thwarted this plan of Sorat. It is a deep, mysterious paradox that
                              > Islam, which was, and is, opposed to Christianity in many ways, also in
                              > effect worked jointly with the Christ-impulse in history, by
                              > blanketing, by "skimming the cream off", this Sorat-science, and by
                              > watering it down. Still, this science survived, and has worked on into
                              > the present day, but the worst was averted, for those times. The
                              > weakened Jundi Sabur impulse, as a distorted quasi-Aristotelianism,
                              > passed to the Arabs, over Africa and Spain, to France, England, and
                              > through the monasteries (e.g. Roger Bacon) back over to the Continent.
                              > The "Realism" of the Medieval scholastics (especially the revived
                              > Aristotelianism of Thomas Aquinas) opposed this Arabian influence,
                              > somewhat correctly seeing it as inimical to Christianity; but with the
                              > decline and decadence of Medieval Aristotelianism, and with the dawn of
                              > modern, anti-Aristotelian "empiricism" (e.g. Francis Bacon), the
                              > diluted, but still powerful, Sorat-science came to dominate world-
                              > culture.<<
                              > >>The ruling Time Spirit, since 1879 AD, is now the Sun-Archangel
                              > Michael (the "Countenance of Christ"). His previous rulership
                              > encompassed the time of Aristotle and Alexander. Michael is the
                              > administrator of Cosmic Intelligence, and a promoter of
                              > cosmopolitanism. Ideas to Plato had been living spiritual beings,
                              > attainable in higher vision. His pupil Aristotle put this pictorial
                              > wisdom into conceptual thoughts, suitable for the age of lost
                              > clairvoyance; Alexander carried this Greek thought-culture into the
                              > wider world -- both in the service of Michael. But this ancient Greek
                              > thinking was not experienced as coming from within the Man; it was
                              > rather experienced as coming, like perceptions, from the outside, a
                              > cosmic Pan-Intelligence. Later, this Aristotelianism was carried over
                              > to Jundi Sabur, and thence into Arabian/Muslim culture. Perhaps the
                              > most brilliant and influential proponent of this Arabian culture were
                              > the Caliph Haroun al Rashid and his associates, in the Eighth Century
                              > AD. This culture was, as indicated above, brilliant in a way, but was
                              > also anti-evolutionary in that it failed to appreciate the Christ-
                              > Impulse and was infected with the Sorat/Ahriman influence from Jundi
                              > Sabur. Around this time the cosmic Intelligence began to "fall to
                              > earth", out of the rule of Michael and in the "heads" of Men; the Pan-
                              > Intelligence becoming individualized, personal intelligence. This
                              > process was a preparation for what was to culminate after the dawn of
                              > the Consciousness Soul Epoch in the Fifteenth Century: that Men were to
                              > experience their thoughts as coming from out of themselves, as a
                              > personal intelligence in individual freedom. . . .<<
                              > In these same lectures RS said something to the effect that
                              > the origin of Mohammedanism was inspired by spirits that
                              > were opposed but still somehow connected to the Christ
                              > influence. I still haven't figured out exactly which spirits
                              > he was talking about.
                              >
                              > Robert M
                              >

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