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Anthroposophy and France

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  • VALENTINA BRUNETTI
    Anthroposophy and France. Dear Listmates, in order to counterbalance some nonsensical sentence against France that the usual suspects posted here, I ll try
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 26, 2003
       

      Anthroposophy and France.

       

       

      Dear Listmates,

      in order to counterbalance some nonsensical sentence against France that the "usual suspects" posted  here, I'll try to give some picture about the contribution that the Frenchmen gave, and are still giving, to the worldwide birth of Anthropos-Sophia.

      In 1905 died one of the most powerful Rosicrucian healers ever seen in Europe, Anthelme Nizier Philippe , known as "Maitre Philippe de Lyon": when I say "Rosicrucian" I mean that he was, or was inspired by, "one of the twelve".

      The powerful spiritual aura that he left in his country, together with the different, but important work of Eduard Schurè  are to be seen at the origin of   two spiritual events happening in 1922.

      On 1922 September Rudolf Steiner held a lectures' cycle  "for Frenchmen" (Philosophy,Cosmology and Religion) and during this cycle he met an extraordinary French esotericist, known as the most prominent worldwide cognizant of Catharism, Mr.Deodat Rochè, who became a spiritual pillar in the Anthroposophical life in France.

       Rochè wrote thousands of pages about Cathars and Manichaen and their link with modern Spiritual Science , he died at 101 in 1978.

      In the mean time there was published a remarkable essay from Mr..Paul Coroze ( "Chemin vers l'Esprit"-1951) in which the author tried to give new life to the roots of Idealistic Philosophy by the means of Spiritual Science , while his wife Simone Rihouet Coroze wrote in 1970 one of the most faithful and well informed   Steiner's biography ever written.

       Today there is a very remarkable guy, Mr.Michel Joseph, aged 55,  editor of a magazine called "Tournant" , philosopher, astrosophist, orienteer in inner practice's  problems who use to lecture both in France and Italy (where I use to attend).

       He also got a PH D at the Sorbonne discussing his   750 pages essay about the epistemological and philosphical roots of Anthroposophy.

      So if we  look at each  single European country  , we  can see that  ,there in France, the contribution to the building of a "Anthroposophical Common House"  is rooted mostly in  the task of Intellectual Soul's healing and spiritualization.

      And it's really a matter of the widest importance, since we all, whatever tongue we use to speak, are involved in such a task.

      From this short sketch, dear listmates, you are able to see that France is not only the country of  the "frog eaters" or of the "cowards" who opposite the "holy war" of sorcery's apprentices ......

       

      Andrea

    • elaineupton2001
      Hello all, and thanks for your post, Andrea. You give stellar examples of certain spiritual work and workers in France. Good. Yet, even if we did not know
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 27, 2003
        Hello all, and thanks for your post, Andrea.

        You give stellar examples of certain spiritual work and workers in
        France. Good. Yet, even if we did not know this, we know that there
        are HUMAN BEINGS living and breathing in France, and so the people
        there can never be "irrelevant", and as long as nations exist
        (nationalism is becoming outmoded, but, for now, as long as nations
        exist) there is a French soul that makes a contribution, because the
        people do.

        I'm continuing to eat my french fries (albeit, the kind with organic
        potatoes and apple juice instead of so much oil--smile).

        Blessings,
        elaine
      • foncteur
        Open your eyes... This France is dead . In France today, French who are unhappy enough to be jewish and proud of it are beaten in the streets, as it happened
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 31, 2003
          Open your eyes...
          This France is dead .
          In France today, French who are unhappy enough to be jewish and
          proud of it are beaten in the streets, as it happened last Saturday
          in Paris Boulevard Beaumarchais, on the edge of the anti-war
          manifestation.
          In France today girls are raped, or even burnt alive if they refuse
          to obey to the law of men (muslim men) in the suburbs zones.
          France does not exist any more.
          I was born French, and I am now an apatrid : because I refuse that
          Jews be killed a second time.



          --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "VALENTINA BRUNETTI"
          <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
          >
          > Anthroposophy and France.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Dear Listmates,
          >
          > in order to counterbalance some nonsensical sentence against France
          that the "usual suspects" posted here, I'll try to give some picture
          about the contribution that the Frenchmen gave, and are still giving,
          to the worldwide birth of Anthropos-Sophia.
          >
          > In 1905 died one of the most powerful Rosicrucian healers ever seen
          in Europe, Anthelme Nizier Philippe , known as "Maitre Philippe de
          Lyon": when I say "Rosicrucian" I mean that he was, or was inspired
          by, "one of the twelve".
          >
          > The powerful spiritual aura that he left in his country, together
          with the different, but important work of Eduard Schurè are to be
          seen at the origin of two spiritual events happening in 1922.
          >
          > On 1922 September Rudolf Steiner held a lectures' cycle "for
          Frenchmen" (Philosophy,Cosmology and Religion) and during this cycle
          he met an extraordinary French esotericist, known as the most
          prominent worldwide cognizant of Catharism, Mr.Deodat Rochè, who
          became a spiritual pillar in the Anthroposophical life in France.
          >
          > Rochè wrote thousands of pages about Cathars and Manichaen and
          their link with modern Spiritual Science , he died at 101 in 1978.
          >
          > In the mean time there was published a remarkable essay from
          Mr..Paul Coroze ( "Chemin vers l'Esprit"-1951) in which the author
          tried to give new life to the roots of Idealistic Philosophy by the
          means of Spiritual Science , while his wife Simone Rihouet Coroze
          wrote in 1970 one of the most faithful and well informed Steiner's
          biography ever written.
          >
          > Today there is a very remarkable guy, Mr.Michel Joseph, aged 55,
          editor of a magazine called "Tournant" , philosopher, astrosophist,
          orienteer in inner practice's problems who use to lecture both in
          France and Italy (where I use to attend).
          >
          > He also got a PH D at the Sorbonne discussing his 750 pages
          essay about the epistemological and philosphical roots of
          Anthroposophy.
          >
          > So if we look at each single European country , we can see
          that ,there in France, the contribution to the building of
          a "Anthroposophical Common House" is rooted mostly in the task of
          Intellectual Soul's healing and spiritualization.
          >
          > And it's really a matter of the widest importance, since we all,
          whatever tongue we use to speak, are involved in such a task.
          >
          > From this short sketch, dear listmates, you are able to see that
          France is not only the country of the "frog eaters" or of
          the "cowards" who opposite the "holy war" of sorcery's
          apprentices ......
          >
          >
          >
          > Andrea
        • DRStarman2001@aol.com
          foncteur@yahoo.fr writes: ... *******Lightsearcher posted a great article by Oriana Fallaci a few months ago about Muslim immigration to Europe (specifically,
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 31, 2003
            foncteur@... writes:

            Open your eyes...
            This France is dead .
            In France today, French who are unhappy enough to be jewish and
            proud of it are beaten in the streets, as it happened last Saturday
            in Paris Boulevard Beaumarchais, on the edge of the anti-war
            manifestation.
            In France today girls are raped, or even burnt alive if they refuse
            to obey to the law of men (muslim men) in the suburbs zones.
            France does not exist any more.
            I was born French, and I am now an apatrid : because I refuse that
            Jews be killed a second time.

            *******Lightsearcher posted a great article by Oriana Fallaci a few months ago about Muslim immigration to Europe (specifically, to Italy) and its negative consequences. What the war of Islam vs. the West has caused here in America is a reopening of the debate about immigration, a realization that, while immigrants were always expected to assimilate into our culture, renounce loyalties to foreign nations, and learn our political system, what's happened since the 1960s is that we Americans ourselves have largely lost faith in our own culture and political system (as the sad distortions of its reality here show), so we became at best ambiguous about insisting on this acculturation. We are starting an overhaul of our Immigration and Naturalization Service so that people who don't believe at all in freedom can't use the freedom level of our culture to come in here and kill us. Other Western countries are going to have to go through the same thing--- hopefully before more innocents die.
                As a part of that re-examination of one's culture is and what it means to assimilate into that culture, all Western nations are going to have to rediscover their heritage and what sets them apart from the backward parts of the world---and in doing so they will come face-to-face, sooner or later, with the Christ-Impulse that has created European civilization by working into it over the past 2000 years.
            Starman
          • lightsearcher1
            Most perspicaciously, and Michaelically, ... WHY DID FONCTEUR REPLY in this fashion? FONCTEUR was intellectually stirred by the impenetrable insentience of
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 31, 2003
              Most perspicaciously, and Michaelically,
              FONCTEUR rejoindered thusly:

              > Open your eyes...This France is dead.

              WHY DID FONCTEUR REPLY in this fashion?

              FONCTEUR was intellectually stirred by the
              impenetrable insentience of VB's illusional
              dreams and even deeper intellectual sleep,
              from which she spoke forth concerning:

              > the contribution that the Frenchmen gave,
              > and are still giving, to the worldwide birth
              > of Anthropos-Sophia....there in France...the task of
              > Intellectual Soul's healing and spiritualization.

              FONCTEUR SAID: "Open your eyes...This France is dead."

              LIGHTSEARCHER SAYS: "Que Dieu vous Bénisse Foncteur !!!

              God bless you, Foncteur for telling to her the
              truth, for speking outwardly what all but the
              willfully blind already know:

              > Open your eyes...This France is dead.

              VB will not awake from her tomb of fathomless sleep,
              for if she did, she might realize the shock of
              truth that...

              The Left loves Tyranny...they admire dictators.

              In their heart of hearts, the LOVE them.

              The Lefties displayed this trait over and over again
              throughout the century that has just passed by.

              AND THEY CONTINUE TO DISPLAY IT TODAY !

              Against their own faux "high principles" and yelping
              for "human rights" and all their other dishonest
              cant, the stern dictator-type represents ineluctably
              for them the "father-force" and the "father-power"
              that their own upbringing, and own fathers, never
              could provide them.

              It is a "Missing-Father-Complex"

              And their "Missing Father" comes back with a vengeance.

              . . . . . . . . . . . .

              AND THEN FONCTEUR ENDED WITH
              A TOUR DE FORCE CONCLUSION:

              In France today, French who are unhappy enough to be jewish and
              proud of it are beaten in the streets, as it happened last Saturday
              in Paris Boulevard Beaumarchais, on the edge of the anti-war
              manifestation.

              In France today girls are raped, or even burnt alive if they refuse
              to obey to the law of men (muslim men) in the suburbs zones.
              France does not exist any more.

              I was born French, and I am now an apatrid : because I refuse that
              Jews be killed a second time.

              . . . . . . . . . . . .

              FONCTEUR...you were too kind by half.

              With kindness of heart you implored VB:

              > "Open your eyes...This France is dead.

              If you were made of sterner stuff,
              you well might have said:

              "Open your eyes...Wake up! - The worldview from
              which you speak is dead. - It is filled with
              lies and illusion."

              . . . . . . . . . . . .
            • lightsearcher1
              Lightsearcher referred to the Left s natural - and pitifully innate - father-complex resulting in a natural hidden love of dictators ... . . . . . . . . . .
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 31, 2003
                Lightsearcher referred to
                the Left's natural - and pitifully
                innate - "father-complex" resulting
                in a natural hidden love of dictators
                and their dictatorships:

                > Against their own faux "high principles" and yelping
                > for "human rights" and all their other dishonest
                > cant, the stern dictator-type represents ineluctably
                > for them the "father-force" and the "father-power"
                > that their own upbringing, and own fathers, never
                > could provide them.

                > It is a "Missing-Father" Complex

                > And their "Missing Father" comes back with a vengeance
                > (in a frustrated love for what they never had growing up).

                . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

                Fleshing this out a bit further...

                ...the above-mentioned psychological function
                serves as their "INFERIOR psychological function."

                It always lies just a bit below the surface - until
                it is chased out into the light-of-day by events
                such as we have in the world at this moment in time.

                The typical Leftist's "SUPERIOR function" is the
                effete-ly superior penchant for vigorously and
                proudly yelping in an INDISCRIMINATE and UTTERLY
                ABSTRACT and hence FULLY UNWORLDLY fashion about
                "equality" and "human rights."

                Their cold, abstract, and blood-less ideals
                lack all substance and are not held - let alone
                anchored - by the least strands of connection
                to reality.

                You get insane extremes of protest and cant.

                They lack the power to discriminate between
                degrees of right or wrong...they cannot perceive
                real-world degrees of better and worse.

                Hence you get their inveterate mis-reading
                of the degrees of virtue between, for example,
                the United States government and the Iraqi government.

                With their bloodless abstract ideals they rant
                against "discrimination" with the result that -
                in God's all-knowing and wise justice - all power
                of true discrimination is removed from them.

                Being ENTOMBED in these INTELLECTUAL SOUL
                ABSTRACTIONS they wander far afield from reality
                and cannot recognize or sympathize with the "flesh
                and blood" human victims whose lives have been
                destroyed by the human rights taken from them.

                Long live Foncteur..

                Lightsearcher
              • SRC
                Dear Kerry O Connor (who is Starman for the rest of you): Are you still a Quaker? If so, how do you reconcile the long-standing Quaker ethos with your
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 31, 2003
                  Dear Kerry O'Connor (who is Starman for the rest of you):

                  Are you still a Quaker? If so, how do you reconcile the long-standing
                  Quaker ethos with your bellicose political and social views? Although I
                  don't see how, perhaps you have found a way. Please advise.

                  And your Church of The Inner Light: is it affiliated in any way with the
                  Dion Fortune-Gareth Knight Society of the Inner Light? Does it have any
                  political views or platform? Is it associated with any
                  Bush-Administration-leaning think-tanks or
                  evangelical/Born-Again/Reaganite circles?

                  The reason I ask is that, as Vicorian Occultism was the blueprint for the
                  ideological engine of Great Britain's Imperial Empire and The White Man's
                  Burden, so also does it seem that narrowly interpreted tenents of
                  Born-Again Christianity and New Age revelations (broadly defined, this
                  includes Steiner's legacy) are providing religious-ideological support for
                  Bush's _very_ thinly disguised hegemonic drive to put the USA on Top.
                  From what I can tell, you include yourself in this impulse. Although I
                  don't see how one could, from a simple reading, interpret Steiner's
                  geopolitical remarks in the way which you do, if one had the drive, from
                  prior inclination ar agenda, I'm sure one could - as you do.

                  You seem to have hitched your wagon to this star. Perhaps you have a
                  different interpretation, and would like to expound upon your reasoning,
                  but most of my questions are quite specific, and shouldn't be too hard to
                  answer with a simple yes or no. As you have been liberal in distributing
                  your views, my request is quite in order.

                  Thank you,

                  Stephen


                  =====
                  "The only thing I regret about my past is the length of it. If I had to live my life again I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner." - Tallulah Bankhead

                  "Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation." - Clarence Darrow

                  "Those who cannot hear the music think that the dancer is mad." - Rumi

                  "The victim who is able to articulate the situation of the victim has ceased to be a victim: he or she has become a threat." - James Baldwin

                  __________________________________________________
                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
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                • lightsearcher1
                  Stephen: What you have done is profoundly unfair. And in a more centered moment - hopefully to occur any second - now you should decide to delete what you did
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 31, 2003
                    Stephen:

                    What you have done is profoundly unfair.

                    And in a more centered moment - hopefully to occur
                    any second - now you should decide to delete
                    what you did

                    As for Dr. Starman - whose name to this day I've
                    never known - has EASILY cited and GIVEN EVERYONE
                    SUFFICIENT personal information about his LOCATION
                    and his PROFESSION and his spiritually focused WORK...

                    -- SUCH THAT ANYONE ! --

                    ....SUCH THAT ANYONE - even a drunk detective
                    on a bad night with a few hours to spare - could have
                    done the research necessary to do what you have most
                    evil-ly (and unfairly) done.

                    But the telling thing about you
                    is that YOU have done it.

                    And so if it has to be cried then I'll cry it: "FOUL"

                    You have gone AD HOMINEM.

                    You have gone WRONG.

                    I begrudge you NOTHING in your post except the
                    use of a personal name CONTRAVENING and
                    DISRESPECTINGthe desires of that individual.

                    No problem whatsoever with every other
                    ISSUE and CHALLENGE and QUESTION you brought.

                    All that was perfectly within bounds as
                    a confrontation. - No one is against that.

                    BUT I TELL YOU THIS:

                    Not in ONE THOUSAND YEARS would anyone else on
                    this list have the LEAST DESIRE to do what you
                    have done to even the most contra-oppositional
                    opponent they may have on this list.

                    I respectfully ask you:

                    Whence this unfortunate desire to dig into
                    people's backgrounds rather than simply meeting
                    or opposing them on the terms provided by the
                    normal terms of communicational interaction
                    provided by any e-forum?

                    Shame upon you and the source of
                    your need to do what you chose to do.

                    At the risk of angering you, I believe
                    (and may of course be wrong) that the root
                    of your need to do what you have done is
                    the "Grand Inquisitor's" need to judge,
                    sentence, and dispose of another individual.
                    It reeks of the East German STASI.

                    Undo it...and you should undo it now.

                    Lightsearcher


                    --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, SRC <mozartg@y...> wrote:

                    > Are you still a Quaker? If so, how do you reconcile the long-
                    standing
                    > Quaker ethos with your bellicose political and social views?
                    Although I
                    > don't see how, perhaps you have found a way. Please advise.
                    >
                    > And your Church of The Inner Light: is it affiliated in any way
                    with the
                    > Dion Fortune-Gareth Knight Society of the Inner Light? Does it
                    have any
                    > political views or platform? Is it associated with any
                    > Bush-Administration-leaning think-tanks or
                    > evangelical/Born-Again/Reaganite circles?
                    >
                    > The reason I ask is that, as Vicorian Occultism was the blueprint
                    for the
                    > ideological engine of Great Britain's Imperial Empire and The White
                    Man's
                    > Burden, so also does it seem that narrowly interpreted tenents of
                    > Born-Again Christianity and New Age revelations (broadly defined,
                    this
                    > includes Steiner's legacy) are providing religious-ideological
                    support for
                    > Bush's _very_ thinly disguised hegemonic drive to put the USA on
                    Top.
                    > From what I can tell, you include yourself in this impulse.
                    Although I
                    > don't see how one could, from a simple reading, interpret Steiner's
                    > geopolitical remarks in the way which you do, if one had the drive,
                    from
                    > prior inclination ar agenda, I'm sure one could - as you do.
                    >
                    > You seem to have hitched your wagon to this star. Perhaps you have
                    a
                    > different interpretation, and would like to expound upon your
                    reasoning,
                    > but most of my questions are quite specific, and shouldn't be too
                    hard to
                    > answer with a simple yes or no. As you have been liberal in
                    distributing
                    > your views, my request is quite in order.
                    >
                    > Thank you,
                    >
                    > Stephen
                    >
                  • lightsearcher1
                    L quietude of the mass-collective-hive today on this significant matter of transgression of human principle is deafening. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 1, 2003
                      L'quietude of the mass-collective-hive today
                      on this significant matter of transgression
                      of human principle is deafening.

                      . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

                      > ANYONE - even a drunk detective
                      > on a bad night with a few hours to spare - could have
                      > done the research necessary to do what you have most
                      > evil-ly (and unfairly) done.
                      >
                      > But the telling thing about you
                      > is that YOU have done it.
                      >
                      > You have gone AD HOMINEM.
                      > You have gone WRONG.
                      >
                      > I begrudge you NOTHING in your post except the
                      > use of a personal name CONTRAVENING and
                      > DISRESPECTING the desires of that individual.
                      >
                      > Not in ONE THOUSAND YEARS would anyone else on
                      > this list have the LEAST DESIRE to do what you
                      > have done to even the most contra-oppositional
                      > opponent they may have on this list.
                      >
                      > Shame upon you and the source of
                      > your need to do what you chose to do.
                      >
                      > At the risk of angering you, I believe
                      > (and may of course be wrong) that the root
                      > of your need to do what you have done is
                      > "the Grand Inquisitor's need" to summon, judge,
                      > sentence, and dispose of another individual.
                      >
                      > It reeks of the East German STASI.
                    • SRC
                      ... If you would pause long enough to wipe the spittle from your face - and your monitor - reread your post. Its totally self-contradictory. Yes, you are
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 1, 2003
                        --- lightsearcher1 <lightsearcher1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Stephen:
                        >
                        > What you have done is profoundly unfair.

                        If you would pause long enough to wipe the spittle from your face - and
                        your monitor - reread your post. Its totally self-contradictory. Yes,
                        you are upset; that comes through ok. Thank you for sharing.

                        As for the substance of my post - we still await Starmans answers.

                        He has nailed his controversial colors to the mast to such an extent that
                        I consider it unfair for him to hide behind a smoke screen of any sort.
                        As his identity is matter of public record - and easy to access, as you
                        readily admit - and as he has rarely failed to exercise the most common of
                        ordinary courtesies to those whose opinions he reviles, I say: What's fair
                        is fair.

                        It still an open question for me as to whether the entity known as
                        <Starman> really exists, in the normal sense of the word; that is, as he
                        presents himself online. Several possibilities suggest themselves to me:

                        1. <Starman> is a virtual entity; an AI software program with a backup
                        identity of O'Connor. His utterly predictable and preprogrammed responses
                        betray no hint of subtlety, self-referencing, flexibility or humor, only a
                        great cleverness and skill in manipulating the jargon of Steiner-speak.

                        2. <Starman> is an agent provocateur. Most likely, in my estimation, and
                        not totally incompatible with #1, as the reactionary mentality strives to
                        approximate that robotic ideal. In this case, to Out him would be a
                        service to the List.

                        3. the poor guy has lost it. Many sociopaths pass as <normal> in an
                        abnormal society. Probability unknown, but not vanishingly small. His
                        geopolitical views and argumentative style are definitely past borderline.
                        If he needs therapy, this list is definitely _not_ the right place for
                        him, and our well-meaning attempts to converse with him as if he were
                        normal are even more definitely out of place.

                        4. He believes his rhetoric but enters anthroposophy with an agenda and
                        mindset which has not yet been affected by it; he stripmines it for what
                        he can get out of it and ignores the rest of it - and all of the
                        all-important _process_. As such, he should have long ago either left
                        this list or been kicked off. As all good-humored chiding and heartfelt
                        pleadings for rapport have been distainfully rejected by him, its time to
                        move it to the next level. Starman wants to get down on it? Ok, lets
                        get real. Let's start by using real names.

                        I have a lot of respect for this list, and little for Starman. If he
                        wants respect, he's got to give it. What good will he started out with is
                        long since used up, and he has squandered it himself.

                        Stephen

                        Look, if you have no beef with my post except the portion that is of
                        concern only to Starman himself (as you say), then spare my inbox the
                        trouble unless you have something original to contribute. Or did Starman
                        ask you to speak for him? Or are you the same entity? Who are you,
                        exactly? What do you have to hide? I recall that previous similar
                        questions to you have gone unanswered. What is your policy in this
                        regard?


                        =====
                        "The only thing I regret about my past is the length of it. If I had to live my life again I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner." - Tallulah Bankhead

                        "Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation." - Clarence Darrow

                        "Those who cannot hear the music think that the dancer is mad." - Rumi

                        "The victim who is able to articulate the situation of the victim has ceased to be a victim: he or she has become a threat." - James Baldwin

                        __________________________________________________
                        Do you Yahoo!?
                        Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
                        http://platinum.yahoo.com
                      • Ashley Case
                        I figured that Starman works for the CIA. ... From: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 08:15:24 AM To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 1, 2003
                          >
                          I figured that Starman works for the CIA.
                           
                          -------Original Message-------
                           
                          Date: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 08:15:24 AM
                          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] SRC should delete FORTHWITH
                           
                          --- lightsearcher1 <lightsearcher1@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Stephen:
                          >
                          > What you have done is
                          profoundly unfair.

                          If you would pause long enough to wipe the spittle from your face - and
                          your monitor - reread your post. Its totally self-contradictory. Yes,
                          you are upset; that comes through ok. Thank you for sharing.

                          As for the substance of my post - we still await Starmans answers.

                          He has nailed his controversial colors to the mast to such an extent that
                          I consider it unfair for him to hide behind a smoke screen of any sort.
                          As his identity is matter of public record - and easy to access, as you
                          readily admit - and as he has rarely failed to exercise the most common of
                          ordinary courtesies to those whose opinions he reviles, I say: What's fair
                          is fair.

                          It still an open question for me as to whether the entity known as
                          <Starman> really exists, in the normal sense of the word; that is, as he
                          presents himself online. Several possibilities suggest themselves to me:

                          1. <Starman> is a virtual entity; an AI software program with a backup
                          identity of O'Connor. His utterly predictable and preprogrammed responses
                          betray no hint of subtlety, self-referencing, flexibility or humor, only a
                          great cleverness and skill in manipulating the jargon of Steiner-speak.

                          2. <Starman> is an agent provocateur. Most likely, in my estimation, and
                          not totally incompatible with #1, as the reactionary mentality strives to
                          approximate that robotic ideal. In this case, to Out him would be a
                          service to the List.

                          3. the poor guy has lost it. Many sociopaths pass as <normal> in an
                          abnormal society. Probability unknown, but not vanishingly small. His
                          geopolitical views and argumentative style are definitely past borderline.
                          If he needs therapy, this list is definitely _not_ the right place for
                          him, and our well-meaning attempts to converse with him as if he were
                          normal are even more definitely out of place.

                          4. He believes his rhetoric but enters anthroposophy with an agenda and
                          mindset which has not yet been affected by it; he stripmines it for what
                          he can get out of it and ignores the rest of it - and all of the
                          all-important _process_. As such, he should have long ago either left
                          this list or been kicked off. As all good-humored chiding and heartfelt
                          pleadings for rapport have been distainfully rejected by him, its time to
                          move it to the next level. Starman wants to get down on it? Ok, lets
                          get real. Let's start by using real names.

                          I have a lot of respect for this list, and little for Starman. If he
                          wants respect, he's got to give it. What good will he started out with is
                          long since used up, and he has squandered it himself.

                          Stephen

                          Look, if you have no beef with my post except the portion that is of
                          concern only to Starman himself (as you say), then spare my inbox the
                          trouble unless you have something original to contribute. Or did Starman
                          ask you to speak for him? Or are you the same entity? Who are you,
                          exactly? What do you have to hide? I recall that previous similar
                          questions to you have gone unanswered. What is your policy in this
                          regard?


                          =====
                          "The only thing I regret about my past is the length of it. If I had to live my life again I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner." - Tallulah Bankhead

                          "Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation." - Clarence Darrow

                          "Those who cannot hear the music think that the dancer is mad." - Rumi

                          "The victim who is able to articulate the situation of the victim has ceased to be a victim: he or she has become a threat." - James Baldwin

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                          .
                        • lightsearcher1
                          SR: All your opinions are quite acceptable (at least up until your tag-ending). It is quite good and PROPER and reasonable that you ask them about Starman and
                          Message 12 of 13 , Apr 1, 2003
                            SR:

                            All your opinions are quite acceptable
                            (at least up until your tag-ending).

                            It is quite good and PROPER and reasonable
                            that you ask them about Starman and his
                            views.

                            I support the asking, no problem. Hang in there !

                            > ... did Starman ask you to speak for him?

                            Absolutely not. – I've had no contact from him
                            whatsoever on this...and probably only a total
                            of five interactions in toto prior to this.

                            > Or are you the same entity?

                            Paranoia strikes! (see BELOW also) –

                            In answer to this quesion: No one person
                            could have two such different writing styles !

                            But more sadly important is your next –

                            > Who are you, exactly?
                            > What do you have to hide?

                            Here, your fundamental tendency –

                            "L'Inquisitor Grande" – your eternal proclivity, clicks in.

                            Saints be praised, for the non-clairvoyant life of me,
                            the only past-life experience that ANY human being
                            could POSSIBLY have had to lead to such a proclivity is this:

                            In your prior life you were blessed to be a person either of:

                            – Wealth
                            – Power, and/or
                            – Fame

                            And in this anxious lifetime past, you became increasingly
                            fearful, cautious, and "dread-filled" of other persons who each
                            became – in your eyes – a personal threat to the removal
                            or loss, by force or otherwise in your eyes, of that Wealth
                            or Power or Fame.

                            And hence the need to probe, investigate and dig – as a
                            felt-defense – against perceived threats to your worldly
                            possessions in that fearful lifetime.

                            Hence the proclivity passes on to this incarnation,
                            reflexively, to dig, unmask and "out" other human beings,
                            the need to know their "dossier in full."

                            Monsieur Inquisitor:

                            I already cited in months past your need to probe new people
                            at parties, not being able to stifle your need that leads you
                            within a bare 13.5 seconds of meeting them to rudely inquire:

                            -- "WHAT do YOU do for a LIVING?" --

                            This is the need to protect, PIGEONHOLE and peg a
                            person, nay for you ALL people, so that your deepest
                            hidden fear and anxiety is put at ease.

                            I respectfully ask:

                            Do you not have the inner security to meet
                            fellow human beings on an OPEN basis, enjoying
                            their fellowship without having to probe their
                            LIVELIHOODS and OCCUPATIONS and NAMES
                            and BACKGROUNDS in such a paranoiac manner?

                            I am not probing here.

                            I require NO REPLY, for this is not an INQUISITION
                            such as is your nature to mount.
                          • SRC
                            ... its not paranoia. Its a simple question, to which a simple yes or no would suffice. Cyberspace allows for possibilities which would be absurd in normal
                            Message 13 of 13 , Apr 1, 2003
                              --- lightsearcher1 <lightsearcher1@...> wrote:

                              > > Or are you the same entity?
                              >
                              > Paranoia strikes! (see BELOW also) ?

                              its not paranoia. Its a simple question, to which a simple yes or no would
                              suffice. Cyberspace allows for possibilities which would be absurd in
                              normal encounter. We cannot reliably proceed on the assumption that this
                              is <just like real life>. Nor that our post-9/11 life is just like what
                              went before!

                              > In answer to this quesion: No one person
                              > could have two such different writing styles !

                              Not true. Multiple Personality Disorder - of which I believe we have seen
                              a classical example on this and related lists (no, not Starman!) - allow
                              such characteristics to manifest

                              > But more sadly important is your next ?
                              >
                              > > Who are you, exactly?
                              > > What do you have to hide?
                              >
                              > Here, your fundamental tendency ?
                              >
                              > "L'Inquisitor Grande" ? your eternal proclivity, clicks in.

                              and etc., etc., etc.

                              ...and yours, to sidestep the question. I note that you avoid my
                              questions to you with escalated counter-accusations. Hence I consider my
                              questions even more pertinent. Your reluctance to speak from yourself,
                              about yourself, is revealing.

                              Stephen


                              =====
                              "The only thing I regret about my past is the length of it. If I had to live my life again I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner." - Tallulah Bankhead

                              "Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation." - Clarence Darrow

                              "Those who cannot hear the music think that the dancer is mad." - Rumi

                              "The victim who is able to articulate the situation of the victim has ceased to be a victim: he or she has become a threat." - James Baldwin

                              __________________________________________________
                              Do you Yahoo!?
                              Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
                              http://platinum.yahoo.com
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