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R: Andrea correct? (smile)-Re: R: [anthroposophy] Berdyaev correct ? !

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    Wow!! I m in the crossfire of the US artillery!!! Well I ll try to respond the best i can..... See below ... From: To:
    Message 1 of 1 , Jan 26, 2003
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      Wow!! I'm in the crossfire of the US artillery!!!

      Well I'll try to respond the best i can.....
      See below

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <elaineupton@...>
      To: <anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 11:55 PM
      Subject: Andrea correct? (smile)-Re: R: [anthroposophy] Berdyaev correct ? !

      > My dear Andrea,
      > On this thread of Berdyaev, as on the thread of the Michaeli and
      > American needs, you show some tendencies, at least what appear to me
      > as tendencies, that I find interesting and worth noting and looking
      > at, not as an attack or charge at you, but as a lesson for me and all
      > and any who are interested, in how we think and present what we think
      > we know.
      > For example, in your responses to Joel and Stephen on the "American
      > needs" thread, you tend to say things like, "I don't agree" and such
      > and then really not give any follow up. This, at least, is what I
      > notice. This is worth looking at, at the times when you do this, at
      > the time when I might do this, or Joel or Stephen, or lightsearcher
      > or brother ron, or even when (if) Rudolf Steiner might sometimes do
      > this. It is also the problem some people are having with Mr.
      > Prokofieff, that he says things with authority, and then does not
      > show the path to this authority, but expects apparently expects
      > people to just accept what he says. This is not the road, it seems to
      > me, of the Consciousness Soul, a road where we each come into our own
      > wakeful I (in Christ), take up our Cross and examine and provide
      > perceptual experience rather than just hand down dictums or
      > authoritatve statements without proof or evidence from experience.

      Dear Elaine,
      you are able to understand that everytime I or someoneelse make a remark is
      quite impossible "to support it in deep" as you seem to say.
      Since we are all free to agree or not
      I can also say " "I say what I said " following only my small, little
      "authority" sprung from 30 years in Anthroposphy......trying to meet "your"
      authority if possible....

      > Now, in the Berddyaev post you write:
      > > Dear listmates.
      > > I know something of Berdjaev biography and while i feel respect
      > for his
      > > tragic karma the only thing i have to say in this thread is the
      > following:
      > > he did not understand nothing of Anthroposophy and , in the same
      > time,
      > > nothing of Who Steiner was.
      > >
      > > Andrea
      > >
      > You say this is "the only thing you have to say", and personally, I
      > don't find that very helpful. Am I just supposed to to believe what
      > you say about Berdyaev not understanding Anthroposophy or Steiner, or
      > can you and will you provide evidence, real evidence from your own
      > experience that I can at least look at and examine, make up my own
      > mind and heart about, in a spirit of (Consciousness Soul) freedom?
      > So, I would, and do, ask you, if you will, to say more of what
      > evidence you have, what experience you have had, that leads you to
      > this view of (or authority on)what Berdyaev knows or not about
      > Anthroposophy. Can you do that, and will you, please?

      Well, here I admit to have had a "nervous scream ".
      It's a personal,biographic matter: long,long discussions in my early
      thirties to fellows and friends followers of
      Berdjaev,Florenski,Guènon,Evola, Strofinacci, and so on, more or less all
      the "traditional esoteric" european milieu .
      They all everytime claimed "Steiner was not correct", "Steiner was a
      pseudo.inititate" "Steiner was this or that"
      Whta a bothering affaire!
      What to say on a more objective level ?
      The same I said about Tomberg's matter: it's an interesting guy on a general
      cultural level, but, in my opinion, he has nothing to tell to the one who is
      looking for the "Living Thinking" or "Antropos-Sophia" if you prefer.
      Am I dogmatic ?
      Sometimes I feel the need to be so, dear american listmates , don't uou
      forget that this an ANTHROPOSOPHY list.

      > You may well be right that Berdyaev does not know Anthroposophy. I am
      > suspicious of how he lumps all "occultism" (so-called) together, but
      > I will keep an open mind until I know more of him and his views in
      > detail.
      > As for "American needs", I suggest, as Stephen and Joel have each in
      > their own different ways pointed out, that you come live, breathe in
      > America, not through imposing European ideas, but come, as in one of
      > the Six BAsic exercises you speak of, with a completely open mind.
      > Then you might learn about "American needs." I would not begin to
      > presume that I knew about "Italian needs", not even after living
      > there for a few months....Six Basic exercises notwithstanding...
      > Talk about Living thinking? The idea is not so complicated. It is
      > pretty clear to most anyone it seems to me that there are things that
      > are quite, quite different and unique about this vast and varied
      > continent we call "America" as compared to Europe or Africa or Asia
      > (in broad and important generalities). There is no other place I know
      > (and I have lived in other countries and on other continents) that
      > has this zeal for liberty and democracy that the U.S. of America has.
      > We here are far, far from realizing this ideal, but it is a strong
      > ideal, President Bush and his tendencies to dictatorship
      > notwithstanding. That is one example, but if that is too, too
      > abstract, then just take the landscapes--there are several that are
      > quite unique and that shape people's breaths, movements, perceptions,
      > and play into a unique kind of thinking that is part of the larger
      > THINKING.
      > I could go on with what seems to obvious to belabor. Stephen and Joel
      > can speak eloquently to this. So again, I suggest you come to America
      > and live here, really here, openly (in the spirit of the Exercise on
      > complete openness). I will not do the same for Italy (smile), but
      > then I do not claim to know what Italy needs.

      Elaine, can you re-read and re-think what I wrote recently to Stephen,
      please ?

      Ad majora


      > Sending warm wishes,
      > elaine
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