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Jeff's question-anthroposophist?-Re: A Modern Spiritual Path [was: Light

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  • elaineupton2001 <elaineupton@hotmail.com>
    Hello all of this rather ragged thread, IN an attempt, i believe, to bring some clarity to the discussion of ... brief, what is an Anthroposophist? ... Thanks,
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 2, 2003
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      Hello all of this rather ragged thread,

      IN an attempt, i believe, to bring some clarity to the discussion of
      "the" path or "a" path, Jeff writes and asks:

      > Okay. The gauntlet is down. Every AP who chooses, please explain in
      brief, what is an Anthroposophist?
      >
      > Steiner quotes okay.
      >
      > JLA

      Thanks, Jeff. I am not sure I care to run a gauntlet, but I find your
      question important. I suppose there will be as many different answers
      to "what is an anthroposophist" as there are people here. I would
      tend to listen to those who have much experience in committed study
      of Steiner and students of steiner, and those who answer this
      question based on dilletantism (lack of commitment to the work of
      Steiner) I would tend to ignore.

      My own answer is not a simple one (maybe if I were wiser the answer
      would be simple--smile). My own answer is also incomplete, and is
      evolving. Just these past nights (and as the clock struck 12 January
      1, 2003), I was reading from STeiner how since the famous Christmas
      Conference (1925) he united his personal karma with that of the
      Anthroposophic Society (when he became President) and that he also
      said that the Anthroposophic *Movement* from thenceforth could no
      longer be separated from the Anthroposophic *Society*. This has been
      a sticky point for many. In this vein, Steiner also speaks of the
      being of Anthroposophia (the latest and most significant
      manifestation of the being who was Mary-Sophia and later Phil-Sophia
      in the Greek period of the Intellectual Soul). Steiner says that in
      the *Movement* (and thus in the Society?), we are a small group at
      first, and that it is important that in all we do we call upon she
      who is a real, living Being, Anthroposophia. A real living being,
      manifest and re-born in the Spiritual Hierarchies since the turn of
      the 18-19th century. We must, he says, must call upon her and seek
      her guidance in all we do. She will answer us as from our deep inner
      being, as ourselves, our true selves.

      I'd say that for me an Anthroposophist is one who calls upon and
      lives intimately with the being, the living being, Anthroposophia.
      For guidance, we can study Steiner (not blindly, but with loving
      questions), and Steiner's work (flawed perhaps in some cases, but
      overall deeply rich) helps us learn more of how to listen for
      Anthroposophia, and she is the bearer of the Etheric Christ. She is
      that Wisdom within us--*within us*--the Wisdom within, the Divine
      Feminine, who with The Father, works, and she bears the Etheric
      Christ, the Christ manifest in our Time...and the Christ whom Michael
      serves. There are big questions of evolution, race, time, nation,
      geography, cosmic events. These are the ones that Anthroposophia
      helps us understand and work rightly with. Steiner's work is most
      often an immensely helpful companion and guide.

      This is how I see myself, imperfectly as yet, as an Anthroposophist...

      Blessings,
      elaine
    • Br. Ron
      Okay. The gauntlet is down. Every AP who chooses, please explain in brief, what is an Anthroposophist? Steiner quotes okay. JLA It is someone who finds
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 2, 2003
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        Okay. The gauntlet is down. Every AP who chooses, please explain in brief, what is an Anthroposophist?
         
        Steiner quotes okay.
         
        JLA
         
         
         
         
         
        It is someone who finds strength in identifying with a group...
        nothing more, nothing less. (Which must ultimately put them at
        odds with Anthroposophy itself)
         
        If Anthroposophy is Steiner's art of finding freedom through the
        process of individualizing, the term "Anthroposophist" must be technically, an oxymoron.
         
        BR
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
      • 888 <fireofthe12@yahoo.com.au>
        Hi Jeff, ... One thing s for sure, it s not a person who says I believe everything Rudolf Steiner said . That is the kind of Guru complex he wanted to avoid.
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 2, 2003
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          Hi Jeff,
          > Okay. The gauntlet is down. Every AP who chooses, please explain in
          >brief, what is an Anthroposophist?

          One thing's for sure, it's not a person who says "I believe
          everything Rudolf Steiner said". That is the kind of Guru complex he
          wanted to avoid. His desire would be that students think for
          themselves. If one follows the above statment one would have to
          define anthroposophy as "what Rudolf Steiner said". That's how some
          theosophists define theosophy- "what Blavatsky said".

          To define an anthroposophist you'd have to define anthroposophy- it's
          not the kind of word a marketer would choose is it? (Aren't you in
          marketing Jeff?)

          There are many definitions of anthroposophy I've seen over the years-
          things like "Christian yoga after the coming of Michael", "the Wisdom
          in Man". But perhaps the best one is to be found in the "Awakening to
          Community" lectures. I'll have to hunt it out later, but it has to do
          with the development of the Consciousness Soul. The anthroposophist
          is one who strives to work out of the Consciousness Soul. That is at
          least one of the qualities of an real anthroposophist.

          Of course, then one must ask what exactly is this Consciousness Soul.
          Bradford has put up some ideas on the Intellectual or Mind Soul, but
          I've never seen a lot of clear ideas on the Consciousness Soul. This
          is surprising considering how much it's talked about.

          Happy New Year,
          Bruce
        • SRC
          ... I m sympathetic to your point of view. I style myself as one who is in love with the Ideal of Freedom. The part of it is one of those messy things
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 2, 2003
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            Dear Ron:

            --- "Br. Ron" <rlloyd@...> wrote:

            > It is someone who finds strength in identifying with a group...
            > nothing more, nothing less. (Which must ultimately put them at
            > odds with Anthroposophy itself)
            >
            > If Anthroposophy is Steiner's art of finding freedom through the
            > process of individualizing, the term "Anthroposophist" must be
            > technically, an oxymoron.


            I'm sympathetic to your point of view.

            I style myself as one who is in love with the Ideal of Freedom. The <ist>
            part of it is one of those messy things that is one of those inevitable
            and necessary things that happens in the world of Form, and I try and stay
            as clear about that as possible.
            It doesn't bug me as much as it used to.

            Oxymoronically yours,

            Stephen



            =====
            Dear Lord, please help me to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am.

            "The most potent weapon of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed."
            - Steven Biko

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          • Joel Wendt
            ... Anthroposophy is a path of cognition from the spiritual in man to the Spiritual in the Cosmos First Leading Thought. Some translations (George Adam s
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 2, 2003
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              On Thu, 2003-01-02 at 17:21, 888 wrote:

              > There are many definitions of anthroposophy I've seen over the years-
              > things like "Christian yoga after the coming of Michael", "the Wisdom
              > in Man". But perhaps the best one is to be found in the "Awakening to
              > Community" lectures. I'll have to hunt it out later, but it has to do
              > with the development of the Consciousness Soul. The anthroposophist
              > is one who strives to work out of the Consciousness Soul. That is at
              > least one of the qualities of an real anthroposophist.

              "Anthroposophy is a path of cognition from the spiritual in man to the
              Spiritual in the Cosmos" First Leading Thought. Some translations
              (George Adam's for example) use the term "knowledge" instead of
              "cognition", but the German term is erkennen or erkentnis (sorry about
              the spelling). The problem, as it was explained to me, is that English
              speakers tend to think of "knowledge" as a kind of thing which one can
              receive passively, like through reading a book (thus the love of
              practitioners of Steinerism for the lecture cycles), while "cognition"
              is "active thinking", or as I have come to like to express it "will in
              thinking". Our Italian friend, Andrea, likes to talk about the
              "concentration", which is how Kuhlewind also speaks of it. For
              Americans, we probably need to go to Emerson (see my essay "discovering
              individual insight" which draws Steiner and Emerson together in a
              practical (pragmatic way) at http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/stgfr9.html )


              >
              > Of course, then one must ask what exactly is this Consciousness Soul.
              > Bradford has put up some ideas on the Intellectual or Mind Soul, but
              > I've never seen a lot of clear ideas on the Consciousness Soul. This
              > is surprising considering how much it's talked about.

              Bruce, see my discussion with Br. Ron, also quoted in brief here:
              "This age is not about developing visionary powers, but about unfolding
              individual moral authority through learning to know the good and the
              true with the own thinking activity (remember Steiner fans, what the
              good doctor said about three steps in the moral for each step on the
              path to initiation). We incarnate in this most material of ages for
              just this purpose - we need the rigid structure, and all its
              difficulties, to find our own "I am" as the ground of moral activity
              This accomplishment then becomes an eternal aspect of the "I am" that
              can be carried forward into the next incarnations. All the rest, all
              the intellectual concepts of esoterics and spiritual this and that, is
              superfluous. As Stephen Clarke and I agreed, its all about character,
              which is of course what one finds so admirable and powerful in regard to
              native American spirituality. First you get character, then you study
              the "knowledge" in the mysteries (not the other way around, which so
              many members of the steinerism movement seem to be tripping on)."

              For the Steiner fans, here is the quote from Theosophy:
              "By causing the self-existent true and good to come to life in his inner
              being, the human being raises himself above the mere sentient-soul. A
              light is kindled in her which is imperishable. In so far as the soul
              lives in this light, she is a participant in the eternal. With the
              eternal she unites her own existence. What the soul carries within
              herself of the true and the good is immortal in her. Let us call that
              which shines forth in the soul as eternal, the consciousness-soul."

              Of course, the trick is to know how to do this, how to "cause" the
              self-existent true and good to come to life in our inner being.

              warm regards,
              joel
            • Pacbay
              Br. Ron, There must be more to an AP characterization than this. Come on now. Jeff It is someone who finds strength in identifying with a group... nothing
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 2, 2003
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                Br. Ron,
                 
                There must be more to an AP characterization than this. Come on now.
                 
                Jeff
                It is someone who finds strength in identifying with a group...
                nothing more, nothing less. (Which must ultimately put them at
                odds with Anthroposophy itself)
                 
                If Anthroposophy is Steiner's art of finding freedom through the
                process of individualizing, the term "Anthroposophist" must be technically, an oxymoron.
                 
                BR
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 


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              • Br. Ron
                ... Actully not, Jeff. I am supremely taken by the pearls of Steiner and Anthroposophy but those who consider themselves Anthroposophists generally bore me
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 3, 2003
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                  >Br. Ron,
                   
                  >There must be more to an AP characterization than this. Come on now.
                   
                  >Jeff
                   
                  Actully not, Jeff. I am supremely taken by the pearls of Steiner
                  and Anthroposophy but those who consider themselves "Anthroposophists"
                  generally bore me to tears. (present company excluded of course :-)
                   
                   
                  BR
                   
                   
                  It is someone who finds strength in identifying with a group...
                  nothing more, nothing less. (Which must ultimately put them at
                  odds with Anthroposophy itself)
                   
                  If Anthroposophy is Steiner's art of finding freedom through the
                  process of individualizing, the term "Anthroposophist" must be technically, an oxymoron.
                   
                  BR
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   


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                • Pacbay
                  What bores some, brings up anger and heat in others. When younger (early 20 s) I was in a similar position until I was taken to the shed about dogma,
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 4, 2003
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                    What bores some, brings up anger  and heat in  others. When younger (early 20's) I was in a similar position until I was taken to the "shed"
                    about dogma, elitism, and false facades of belief. If someone is truly committed to something, as Bucky Fuller, said, they could throw away all the books and start fresh with little or not remorse or collapse of self certainty. I doubt several here could do that.
                     
                    Jeff
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Br. Ron
                    Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:42 AM
                    Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] A Modern Spiritual Path [was: Light on the Path - A universal question]

                     

                    >Br. Ron,
                     
                    >There must be more to an AP characterization than this. Come on now.
                     
                    >Jeff
                     
                    Actully not, Jeff. I am supremely taken by the pearls of Steiner
                    and Anthroposophy but those who consider themselves "Anthroposophists"
                    generally bore me to tears. (present company excluded of course :-)
                     
                     
                    BR
                     
                     
                    It is someone who finds strength in identifying with a group...
                    nothing more, nothing less. (Which must ultimately put them at
                    odds with Anthroposophy itself)
                     
                    If Anthroposophy is Steiner's art of finding freedom through the
                    process of individualizing, the term "Anthroposophist" must be technically, an oxymoron.
                     
                    BR
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     


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                  • Br. Ron
                    Yes Jeff, I agree. I think what escapes most folks is that my I AM is the final and only arbitor of my Truth. I don t care if a full blown incarnation of the
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jan 4, 2003
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                      Yes Jeff, I agree.
                       
                      I think what escapes most folks is that my 'I AM' is the final and only
                      arbitor of my Truth.
                       
                      I don't care if a full blown incarnation of the Solar Logos came up
                      and told me something, it is only true for me... if it's true for me.
                       
                      That's why it is so difficult to align with a movement or
                      organized dogma...because there is nobody that I believe
                      wholly and unconditionally. There is ALWAYS a caveat
                      of some sort.
                       
                      As much as I generally love Steiner, there are some things that he
                      said that are flat out contradictory...and some things that (to me)
                      seem to be naught but plain BS.
                       
                      So until Michael himself taps me on the shoulder, I trust only that
                      which resides within my Holy of Holies.
                       
                      But that doesn't mean that AP isn't a supremely potent means
                      for helping to uncover the 'once and future' Being I have come to
                      know as my Sacred Sovereign Self.
                       
                       
                      Love
                       
                      BR
                       
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Pacbay
                      Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 11:13 AM
                      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] A Modern Spiritual Path [was: Light on the Path - A universal question]

                      What bores some, brings up anger  and heat in  others. When younger (early 20's) I was in a similar position until I was taken to the "shed"
                      about dogma, elitism, and false facades of belief. If someone is truly committed to something, as Bucky Fuller, said, they could throw away all the books and start fresh with little or not remorse or collapse of self certainty. I doubt several here could do that.
                       
                      Jeff
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Br. Ron
                      Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:42 AM
                      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] A Modern Spiritual Path [was: Light on the Path - A universal question]

                       

                      >Br. Ron,
                       
                      >There must be more to an AP characterization than this. Come on now.
                       
                      >Jeff
                       
                      Actully not, Jeff. I am supremely taken by the pearls of Steiner
                      and Anthroposophy but those who consider themselves "Anthroposophists"
                      generally bore me to tears. (present company excluded of course :-)
                       
                       
                      BR
                       
                       
                      It is someone who finds strength in identifying with a group...
                      nothing more, nothing less. (Which must ultimately put them at
                      odds with Anthroposophy itself)
                       
                      If Anthroposophy is Steiner's art of finding freedom through the
                      process of individualizing, the term "Anthroposophist" must be technically, an oxymoron.
                       
                      BR
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       


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                    • Pacbay
                      I could not have said more clearly. Jeff ... From: Br. Ron To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 11:35 AM Subject: Re:
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jan 4, 2003
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                        I could not have said more clearly.
                         
                        Jeff
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Br. Ron
                        Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 11:35 AM
                        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] A Modern Spiritual Path [was: Light on the Path - A universal question]

                        Yes Jeff, I agree.
                         
                        I think what escapes most folks is that my 'I AM' is the final and only
                        arbitor of my Truth.
                         
                        I don't care if a full blown incarnation of the Solar Logos came up
                        and told me something, it is only true for me... if it's true for me.
                         
                        That's why it is so difficult to align with a movement or
                        organized dogma...because there is nobody that I believe
                        wholly and unconditionally. There is ALWAYS a caveat
                        of some sort.
                         
                        As much as I generally love Steiner, there are some things that he
                        said that are flat out contradictory...and some things that (to me)
                        seem to be naught but plain BS.
                         
                        So until Michael himself taps me on the shoulder, I trust only that
                        which resides within my Holy of Holies.
                         
                        But that doesn't mean that AP isn't a supremely potent means
                        for helping to uncover the 'once and future' Being I have come to
                        know as my Sacred Sovereign Self.
                         
                         
                        Love
                         
                        BR
                         
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Pacbay
                        Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 11:13 AM
                        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] A Modern Spiritual Path [was: Light on the Path - A universal question]

                        What bores some, brings up anger  and heat in  others. When younger (early 20's) I was in a similar position until I was taken to the "shed"
                        about dogma, elitism, and false facades of belief. If someone is truly committed to something, as Bucky Fuller, said, they could throw away all the books and start fresh with little or not remorse or collapse of self certainty. I doubt several here could do that.
                         
                        Jeff
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Br. Ron
                        Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:42 AM
                        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] A Modern Spiritual Path [was: Light on the Path - A universal question]

                         

                        >Br. Ron,
                         
                        >There must be more to an AP characterization than this. Come on now.
                         
                        >Jeff
                         
                        Actully not, Jeff. I am supremely taken by the pearls of Steiner
                        and Anthroposophy but those who consider themselves "Anthroposophists"
                        generally bore me to tears. (present company excluded of course :-)
                         
                         
                        BR
                         
                         
                        It is someone who finds strength in identifying with a group...
                        nothing more, nothing less. (Which must ultimately put them at
                        odds with Anthroposophy itself)
                         
                        If Anthroposophy is Steiner's art of finding freedom through the
                        process of individualizing, the term "Anthroposophist" must be technically, an oxymoron.
                         
                        BR
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         


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                      • 888 <fireofthe12@yahoo.com.au>
                        ... the ... Here is Alfred Meebold s translation: Anthroposophy is a path of knowledge which would lead the spiritual in man to the spiritual in the Universe.
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jan 19, 2003
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                          > "Anthroposophy is a path of cognition from the spiritual in man to
                          the
                          > Spiritual in the Cosmos" First Leading Thought.
                          Here is Alfred Meebold's translation:
                          Anthroposophy is a path of knowledge which would lead the spiritual
                          in man to the spiritual in the Universe. It appears in men as a need
                          of the heart and feeling. It must find its justification in that it
                          can afford satisfaction to this need. Only he can acknowledge
                          Anthroposophy who finds in it what he must seek out of his Gemut.
                          Hence only those men can be called Anthroposophists who feel certain
                          questions as to the nature of man and the world as life necessities
                          in the same way as one feels hunger and thirst.

                          > For the Steiner fans, here is the quote from Theosophy:
                          > "By causing the self-existent true and good to come to life in his
                          inner
                          > being, the human being raises himself above the mere sentient-
                          soul. A
                          > light is kindled in her which is imperishable. In so far as the
                          soul
                          > lives in this light, she is a participant in the eternal. With the
                          > eternal she unites her own existence. What the soul carries within
                          > herself of the true and the good is immortal in her. Let us call
                          that
                          > which shines forth in the soul as eternal, the consciousness-soul."
                          >


                          Yes but there is more to it than that, isn't there? You see in the
                          above the similarity to the first leading thought. The "true and the
                          good" the "eternal" is God (attributes of God), ie the spiritual in
                          Man which leads to the spiritual in the Universe (God).

                          Best Regards,
                          Bruce
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