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Re: [anthroposophy] A Modern Spiritual Path [was: Light on the Path - A universal question]

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  • Pacbay
    Okay. The gauntlet is down. Every AP who chooses, please explain in brief, what is an Anthroposophist? Steiner quotes okay. JLA ... From: Guam Quackers To:
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 2, 2003
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      Okay. The gauntlet is down. Every AP who chooses, please explain in brief, what is an Anthroposophist?
       
      Steiner quotes okay.
       
      JLA
       
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 4:59 PM
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] A Modern Spiritual Path [was: Light on the Path - A universal question]


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Joel Wendt <hermit@...>
      > On Tue, 2002-12-31 at 18:52, Guam Quackers wrote:
      >  why don't you just take your friends and leave us Anthroposophists
      > alone until you all know enough to write correctly about what Theosophy
      > is and what Hinduism is and what Anthroposophy is and what voodoo is?
      > we'll help you if you ask,
      >
      > I'm asking...What is Anthroposophy?  And, what makes your view of it the
      > standard by which other views are to be judged?
      >
      > curious regards,
      > joel

      as you yourself more than once informed us, joel, you have studied very little of steiner's works. my view of anthroposophy is the same as steiner's view, and that's the standard by which other views are to be judged.

      gq
      >

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    • elaineupton2001 <elaineupton@hotmail.com>
      Hello all of this rather ragged thread, IN an attempt, i believe, to bring some clarity to the discussion of ... brief, what is an Anthroposophist? ... Thanks,
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 2, 2003
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        Hello all of this rather ragged thread,

        IN an attempt, i believe, to bring some clarity to the discussion of
        "the" path or "a" path, Jeff writes and asks:

        > Okay. The gauntlet is down. Every AP who chooses, please explain in
        brief, what is an Anthroposophist?
        >
        > Steiner quotes okay.
        >
        > JLA

        Thanks, Jeff. I am not sure I care to run a gauntlet, but I find your
        question important. I suppose there will be as many different answers
        to "what is an anthroposophist" as there are people here. I would
        tend to listen to those who have much experience in committed study
        of Steiner and students of steiner, and those who answer this
        question based on dilletantism (lack of commitment to the work of
        Steiner) I would tend to ignore.

        My own answer is not a simple one (maybe if I were wiser the answer
        would be simple--smile). My own answer is also incomplete, and is
        evolving. Just these past nights (and as the clock struck 12 January
        1, 2003), I was reading from STeiner how since the famous Christmas
        Conference (1925) he united his personal karma with that of the
        Anthroposophic Society (when he became President) and that he also
        said that the Anthroposophic *Movement* from thenceforth could no
        longer be separated from the Anthroposophic *Society*. This has been
        a sticky point for many. In this vein, Steiner also speaks of the
        being of Anthroposophia (the latest and most significant
        manifestation of the being who was Mary-Sophia and later Phil-Sophia
        in the Greek period of the Intellectual Soul). Steiner says that in
        the *Movement* (and thus in the Society?), we are a small group at
        first, and that it is important that in all we do we call upon she
        who is a real, living Being, Anthroposophia. A real living being,
        manifest and re-born in the Spiritual Hierarchies since the turn of
        the 18-19th century. We must, he says, must call upon her and seek
        her guidance in all we do. She will answer us as from our deep inner
        being, as ourselves, our true selves.

        I'd say that for me an Anthroposophist is one who calls upon and
        lives intimately with the being, the living being, Anthroposophia.
        For guidance, we can study Steiner (not blindly, but with loving
        questions), and Steiner's work (flawed perhaps in some cases, but
        overall deeply rich) helps us learn more of how to listen for
        Anthroposophia, and she is the bearer of the Etheric Christ. She is
        that Wisdom within us--*within us*--the Wisdom within, the Divine
        Feminine, who with The Father, works, and she bears the Etheric
        Christ, the Christ manifest in our Time...and the Christ whom Michael
        serves. There are big questions of evolution, race, time, nation,
        geography, cosmic events. These are the ones that Anthroposophia
        helps us understand and work rightly with. Steiner's work is most
        often an immensely helpful companion and guide.

        This is how I see myself, imperfectly as yet, as an Anthroposophist...

        Blessings,
        elaine
      • Br. Ron
        Okay. The gauntlet is down. Every AP who chooses, please explain in brief, what is an Anthroposophist? Steiner quotes okay. JLA It is someone who finds
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 2, 2003
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          Okay. The gauntlet is down. Every AP who chooses, please explain in brief, what is an Anthroposophist?
           
          Steiner quotes okay.
           
          JLA
           
           
           
           
           
          It is someone who finds strength in identifying with a group...
          nothing more, nothing less. (Which must ultimately put them at
          odds with Anthroposophy itself)
           
          If Anthroposophy is Steiner's art of finding freedom through the
          process of individualizing, the term "Anthroposophist" must be technically, an oxymoron.
           
          BR
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
        • 888 <fireofthe12@yahoo.com.au>
          Hi Jeff, ... One thing s for sure, it s not a person who says I believe everything Rudolf Steiner said . That is the kind of Guru complex he wanted to avoid.
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 2, 2003
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            Hi Jeff,
            > Okay. The gauntlet is down. Every AP who chooses, please explain in
            >brief, what is an Anthroposophist?

            One thing's for sure, it's not a person who says "I believe
            everything Rudolf Steiner said". That is the kind of Guru complex he
            wanted to avoid. His desire would be that students think for
            themselves. If one follows the above statment one would have to
            define anthroposophy as "what Rudolf Steiner said". That's how some
            theosophists define theosophy- "what Blavatsky said".

            To define an anthroposophist you'd have to define anthroposophy- it's
            not the kind of word a marketer would choose is it? (Aren't you in
            marketing Jeff?)

            There are many definitions of anthroposophy I've seen over the years-
            things like "Christian yoga after the coming of Michael", "the Wisdom
            in Man". But perhaps the best one is to be found in the "Awakening to
            Community" lectures. I'll have to hunt it out later, but it has to do
            with the development of the Consciousness Soul. The anthroposophist
            is one who strives to work out of the Consciousness Soul. That is at
            least one of the qualities of an real anthroposophist.

            Of course, then one must ask what exactly is this Consciousness Soul.
            Bradford has put up some ideas on the Intellectual or Mind Soul, but
            I've never seen a lot of clear ideas on the Consciousness Soul. This
            is surprising considering how much it's talked about.

            Happy New Year,
            Bruce
          • SRC
            ... I m sympathetic to your point of view. I style myself as one who is in love with the Ideal of Freedom. The part of it is one of those messy things
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 2, 2003
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              Dear Ron:

              --- "Br. Ron" <rlloyd@...> wrote:

              > It is someone who finds strength in identifying with a group...
              > nothing more, nothing less. (Which must ultimately put them at
              > odds with Anthroposophy itself)
              >
              > If Anthroposophy is Steiner's art of finding freedom through the
              > process of individualizing, the term "Anthroposophist" must be
              > technically, an oxymoron.


              I'm sympathetic to your point of view.

              I style myself as one who is in love with the Ideal of Freedom. The <ist>
              part of it is one of those messy things that is one of those inevitable
              and necessary things that happens in the world of Form, and I try and stay
              as clear about that as possible.
              It doesn't bug me as much as it used to.

              Oxymoronically yours,

              Stephen



              =====
              Dear Lord, please help me to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am.

              "The most potent weapon of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed."
              - Steven Biko

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            • Joel Wendt
              ... Anthroposophy is a path of cognition from the spiritual in man to the Spiritual in the Cosmos First Leading Thought. Some translations (George Adam s
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 2, 2003
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                On Thu, 2003-01-02 at 17:21, 888 wrote:

                > There are many definitions of anthroposophy I've seen over the years-
                > things like "Christian yoga after the coming of Michael", "the Wisdom
                > in Man". But perhaps the best one is to be found in the "Awakening to
                > Community" lectures. I'll have to hunt it out later, but it has to do
                > with the development of the Consciousness Soul. The anthroposophist
                > is one who strives to work out of the Consciousness Soul. That is at
                > least one of the qualities of an real anthroposophist.

                "Anthroposophy is a path of cognition from the spiritual in man to the
                Spiritual in the Cosmos" First Leading Thought. Some translations
                (George Adam's for example) use the term "knowledge" instead of
                "cognition", but the German term is erkennen or erkentnis (sorry about
                the spelling). The problem, as it was explained to me, is that English
                speakers tend to think of "knowledge" as a kind of thing which one can
                receive passively, like through reading a book (thus the love of
                practitioners of Steinerism for the lecture cycles), while "cognition"
                is "active thinking", or as I have come to like to express it "will in
                thinking". Our Italian friend, Andrea, likes to talk about the
                "concentration", which is how Kuhlewind also speaks of it. For
                Americans, we probably need to go to Emerson (see my essay "discovering
                individual insight" which draws Steiner and Emerson together in a
                practical (pragmatic way) at http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/stgfr9.html )


                >
                > Of course, then one must ask what exactly is this Consciousness Soul.
                > Bradford has put up some ideas on the Intellectual or Mind Soul, but
                > I've never seen a lot of clear ideas on the Consciousness Soul. This
                > is surprising considering how much it's talked about.

                Bruce, see my discussion with Br. Ron, also quoted in brief here:
                "This age is not about developing visionary powers, but about unfolding
                individual moral authority through learning to know the good and the
                true with the own thinking activity (remember Steiner fans, what the
                good doctor said about three steps in the moral for each step on the
                path to initiation). We incarnate in this most material of ages for
                just this purpose - we need the rigid structure, and all its
                difficulties, to find our own "I am" as the ground of moral activity
                This accomplishment then becomes an eternal aspect of the "I am" that
                can be carried forward into the next incarnations. All the rest, all
                the intellectual concepts of esoterics and spiritual this and that, is
                superfluous. As Stephen Clarke and I agreed, its all about character,
                which is of course what one finds so admirable and powerful in regard to
                native American spirituality. First you get character, then you study
                the "knowledge" in the mysteries (not the other way around, which so
                many members of the steinerism movement seem to be tripping on)."

                For the Steiner fans, here is the quote from Theosophy:
                "By causing the self-existent true and good to come to life in his inner
                being, the human being raises himself above the mere sentient-soul. A
                light is kindled in her which is imperishable. In so far as the soul
                lives in this light, she is a participant in the eternal. With the
                eternal she unites her own existence. What the soul carries within
                herself of the true and the good is immortal in her. Let us call that
                which shines forth in the soul as eternal, the consciousness-soul."

                Of course, the trick is to know how to do this, how to "cause" the
                self-existent true and good to come to life in our inner being.

                warm regards,
                joel
              • Pacbay
                Br. Ron, There must be more to an AP characterization than this. Come on now. Jeff It is someone who finds strength in identifying with a group... nothing
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 2, 2003
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                  Br. Ron,
                   
                  There must be more to an AP characterization than this. Come on now.
                   
                  Jeff
                  It is someone who finds strength in identifying with a group...
                  nothing more, nothing less. (Which must ultimately put them at
                  odds with Anthroposophy itself)
                   
                  If Anthroposophy is Steiner's art of finding freedom through the
                  process of individualizing, the term "Anthroposophist" must be technically, an oxymoron.
                   
                  BR
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   


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                • Br. Ron
                  ... Actully not, Jeff. I am supremely taken by the pearls of Steiner and Anthroposophy but those who consider themselves Anthroposophists generally bore me
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 3, 2003
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                    >Br. Ron,
                     
                    >There must be more to an AP characterization than this. Come on now.
                     
                    >Jeff
                     
                    Actully not, Jeff. I am supremely taken by the pearls of Steiner
                    and Anthroposophy but those who consider themselves "Anthroposophists"
                    generally bore me to tears. (present company excluded of course :-)
                     
                     
                    BR
                     
                     
                    It is someone who finds strength in identifying with a group...
                    nothing more, nothing less. (Which must ultimately put them at
                    odds with Anthroposophy itself)
                     
                    If Anthroposophy is Steiner's art of finding freedom through the
                    process of individualizing, the term "Anthroposophist" must be technically, an oxymoron.
                     
                    BR
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     


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                  • Pacbay
                    What bores some, brings up anger and heat in others. When younger (early 20 s) I was in a similar position until I was taken to the shed about dogma,
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jan 4, 2003
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                      What bores some, brings up anger  and heat in  others. When younger (early 20's) I was in a similar position until I was taken to the "shed"
                      about dogma, elitism, and false facades of belief. If someone is truly committed to something, as Bucky Fuller, said, they could throw away all the books and start fresh with little or not remorse or collapse of self certainty. I doubt several here could do that.
                       
                      Jeff
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Br. Ron
                      Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:42 AM
                      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] A Modern Spiritual Path [was: Light on the Path - A universal question]

                       

                      >Br. Ron,
                       
                      >There must be more to an AP characterization than this. Come on now.
                       
                      >Jeff
                       
                      Actully not, Jeff. I am supremely taken by the pearls of Steiner
                      and Anthroposophy but those who consider themselves "Anthroposophists"
                      generally bore me to tears. (present company excluded of course :-)
                       
                       
                      BR
                       
                       
                      It is someone who finds strength in identifying with a group...
                      nothing more, nothing less. (Which must ultimately put them at
                      odds with Anthroposophy itself)
                       
                      If Anthroposophy is Steiner's art of finding freedom through the
                      process of individualizing, the term "Anthroposophist" must be technically, an oxymoron.
                       
                      BR
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       


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                    • Br. Ron
                      Yes Jeff, I agree. I think what escapes most folks is that my I AM is the final and only arbitor of my Truth. I don t care if a full blown incarnation of the
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jan 4, 2003
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                        Yes Jeff, I agree.
                         
                        I think what escapes most folks is that my 'I AM' is the final and only
                        arbitor of my Truth.
                         
                        I don't care if a full blown incarnation of the Solar Logos came up
                        and told me something, it is only true for me... if it's true for me.
                         
                        That's why it is so difficult to align with a movement or
                        organized dogma...because there is nobody that I believe
                        wholly and unconditionally. There is ALWAYS a caveat
                        of some sort.
                         
                        As much as I generally love Steiner, there are some things that he
                        said that are flat out contradictory...and some things that (to me)
                        seem to be naught but plain BS.
                         
                        So until Michael himself taps me on the shoulder, I trust only that
                        which resides within my Holy of Holies.
                         
                        But that doesn't mean that AP isn't a supremely potent means
                        for helping to uncover the 'once and future' Being I have come to
                        know as my Sacred Sovereign Self.
                         
                         
                        Love
                         
                        BR
                         
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Pacbay
                        Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 11:13 AM
                        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] A Modern Spiritual Path [was: Light on the Path - A universal question]

                        What bores some, brings up anger  and heat in  others. When younger (early 20's) I was in a similar position until I was taken to the "shed"
                        about dogma, elitism, and false facades of belief. If someone is truly committed to something, as Bucky Fuller, said, they could throw away all the books and start fresh with little or not remorse or collapse of self certainty. I doubt several here could do that.
                         
                        Jeff
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Br. Ron
                        Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:42 AM
                        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] A Modern Spiritual Path [was: Light on the Path - A universal question]

                         

                        >Br. Ron,
                         
                        >There must be more to an AP characterization than this. Come on now.
                         
                        >Jeff
                         
                        Actully not, Jeff. I am supremely taken by the pearls of Steiner
                        and Anthroposophy but those who consider themselves "Anthroposophists"
                        generally bore me to tears. (present company excluded of course :-)
                         
                         
                        BR
                         
                         
                        It is someone who finds strength in identifying with a group...
                        nothing more, nothing less. (Which must ultimately put them at
                        odds with Anthroposophy itself)
                         
                        If Anthroposophy is Steiner's art of finding freedom through the
                        process of individualizing, the term "Anthroposophist" must be technically, an oxymoron.
                         
                        BR
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         


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                      • Pacbay
                        I could not have said more clearly. Jeff ... From: Br. Ron To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 11:35 AM Subject: Re:
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jan 4, 2003
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                          I could not have said more clearly.
                           
                          Jeff
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Br. Ron
                          Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 11:35 AM
                          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] A Modern Spiritual Path [was: Light on the Path - A universal question]

                          Yes Jeff, I agree.
                           
                          I think what escapes most folks is that my 'I AM' is the final and only
                          arbitor of my Truth.
                           
                          I don't care if a full blown incarnation of the Solar Logos came up
                          and told me something, it is only true for me... if it's true for me.
                           
                          That's why it is so difficult to align with a movement or
                          organized dogma...because there is nobody that I believe
                          wholly and unconditionally. There is ALWAYS a caveat
                          of some sort.
                           
                          As much as I generally love Steiner, there are some things that he
                          said that are flat out contradictory...and some things that (to me)
                          seem to be naught but plain BS.
                           
                          So until Michael himself taps me on the shoulder, I trust only that
                          which resides within my Holy of Holies.
                           
                          But that doesn't mean that AP isn't a supremely potent means
                          for helping to uncover the 'once and future' Being I have come to
                          know as my Sacred Sovereign Self.
                           
                           
                          Love
                           
                          BR
                           
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Pacbay
                          Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 11:13 AM
                          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] A Modern Spiritual Path [was: Light on the Path - A universal question]

                          What bores some, brings up anger  and heat in  others. When younger (early 20's) I was in a similar position until I was taken to the "shed"
                          about dogma, elitism, and false facades of belief. If someone is truly committed to something, as Bucky Fuller, said, they could throw away all the books and start fresh with little or not remorse or collapse of self certainty. I doubt several here could do that.
                           
                          Jeff
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Br. Ron
                          Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:42 AM
                          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] A Modern Spiritual Path [was: Light on the Path - A universal question]

                           

                          >Br. Ron,
                           
                          >There must be more to an AP characterization than this. Come on now.
                           
                          >Jeff
                           
                          Actully not, Jeff. I am supremely taken by the pearls of Steiner
                          and Anthroposophy but those who consider themselves "Anthroposophists"
                          generally bore me to tears. (present company excluded of course :-)
                           
                           
                          BR
                           
                           
                          It is someone who finds strength in identifying with a group...
                          nothing more, nothing less. (Which must ultimately put them at
                          odds with Anthroposophy itself)
                           
                          If Anthroposophy is Steiner's art of finding freedom through the
                          process of individualizing, the term "Anthroposophist" must be technically, an oxymoron.
                           
                          BR
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           


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                        • 888 <fireofthe12@yahoo.com.au>
                          ... the ... Here is Alfred Meebold s translation: Anthroposophy is a path of knowledge which would lead the spiritual in man to the spiritual in the Universe.
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jan 19, 2003
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                            > "Anthroposophy is a path of cognition from the spiritual in man to
                            the
                            > Spiritual in the Cosmos" First Leading Thought.
                            Here is Alfred Meebold's translation:
                            Anthroposophy is a path of knowledge which would lead the spiritual
                            in man to the spiritual in the Universe. It appears in men as a need
                            of the heart and feeling. It must find its justification in that it
                            can afford satisfaction to this need. Only he can acknowledge
                            Anthroposophy who finds in it what he must seek out of his Gemut.
                            Hence only those men can be called Anthroposophists who feel certain
                            questions as to the nature of man and the world as life necessities
                            in the same way as one feels hunger and thirst.

                            > For the Steiner fans, here is the quote from Theosophy:
                            > "By causing the self-existent true and good to come to life in his
                            inner
                            > being, the human being raises himself above the mere sentient-
                            soul. A
                            > light is kindled in her which is imperishable. In so far as the
                            soul
                            > lives in this light, she is a participant in the eternal. With the
                            > eternal she unites her own existence. What the soul carries within
                            > herself of the true and the good is immortal in her. Let us call
                            that
                            > which shines forth in the soul as eternal, the consciousness-soul."
                            >


                            Yes but there is more to it than that, isn't there? You see in the
                            above the similarity to the first leading thought. The "true and the
                            good" the "eternal" is God (attributes of God), ie the spiritual in
                            Man which leads to the spiritual in the Universe (God).

                            Best Regards,
                            Bruce
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