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Re: [anthroposophy] Back to the Blacksmith

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  • Joel Wendt
    ... Yes, you did say that, but what you described in isolationism. You used the following terms in the message: our borders , nor should we do so (be
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 2, 2003
      On Wed, 2003-01-01 at 13:13, Br. Ron wrote:
      > > The moral future depends upon our taking responsibility for each other
      > > in profound ways, and political isolationism is about as reactionary as
      > > one can get.
      >
      >
      > Reactionary? Yeeeeooow! You have reacted here without even giving one iota
      > of thought to what I have written.
      >
      > Try re-reading my post. I have already said that isolationism isn't the answer

      Yes, you did "say" that, but what you described in isolationism. You
      used the following terms in the message: "our borders", "nor should we
      do so (be where we are unwelcome) on an international level", "let these
      kingdoms deal with their own enemies", "We have enough within our our
      borders...", and "Time to hermetically close...circle of international
      relations."

      People do that a lot - say they aren't doing something, and then go
      ahead and do it anyway - because semi-consciously they know they are
      doing it. In your case, you say you aren't being isolationist, but the
      spirit of what you advocate is.

      The world is far too closely integrated in fact for your advice to
      work. We don't have such a choice, the necessities are otherwise. This
      is why the views you actually express are reactionary (they imagine the
      present to be like a time that only existed in the past). Now I am not
      saying that the Bush II administration is acting in the wisest way, I am
      saying that what you advocate is impossible - it won't work, and in fact
      would have all manner of terrible consequences.

      I can see the emotional sense of it (screw them let the swim in their
      own juices), but nations are not individual people, and how one nation
      behaves toward another can only follow such an analogy in a very
      superficial way. Nations unfortunately have to follow not only all kinds
      of other rules in the modern world - the facts of interdependence
      require it. We are all swimming in the same sea, and what one does
      effects all.

      > but that we on the other hand cannot enforce our will or "take responsibility" for
      > those who do not want it. If you are going to disagree with something I say
      > you best be sure that it isn't something backed up by such common sense
      > as this. Otherwise it'll jes make ya look like a fooo'
      >
      >
      >
      > > In addition, your comparison of our national borders to the ethereal is
      > > also just plain silly, and shows no comprehension of the real facts of
      > > the ethers that Steiner and others have spend so much effort in
      > > developing.
      >
      >
      > Joel...I don't know what parts of Steiner you have (or haven't) been reading
      > but the protective aura is BASIC to any kind of esoteric spiritual practice.
      > A tight and unperforated etheric body is the very foundation upon which
      > sane hermetics are based.

      You said as follows: "On a personal level, the etheric matrix is our own
      private armor. On a national level, our borders are meant to define
      this function." The nature of the ethereal world has no correspondence
      to our national borders, which are clearly a convention of human
      beings. What you said above in reply again shows a lack of familiarity
      with anthroposophical teachings on the ethereal. All you have done is
      to insist that because you have gotten a certain kind of idea from some
      "esoteric spiritual practice", that this applies to the real world in
      the way you imagine. The whole point of "spiritual science", which you
      still haven't gotten, is to actual knowledge, no dreamy ideas about
      spiritual realities. Do you claim to "see" the etheric body of the
      earthly political borders of the United States? Have you a text you can
      refer to that describes such a fact?

      >
      >
      > > But then, maybe you were speaking in some private metaphysical
      > > language, and did not intend the words used to have their ordinary and
      > > accepted meaning.
      >
      >
      > I can't argue with your apparent desire to align yourself with that which is
      > 'ordinary.' But how can you expect others to support your run for the presidency
      > if you haven't yet learned that creating boundaries is every bit as important
      > as dissolving them?

      What has my political activity to do with this discussion, except to
      slide off the actual facts under consideration and introduce a red
      herring? But that aside, please describe for us how the creation of
      borders, as you seem to think applies here, works in international
      relations. You might want to accompany that discourse with examples
      from recent history, and include in those examples places where the
      border (which to you seems to mean one group having nothing to do with
      their neighbors) has a positive effect on either party or the rest of
      us.

      >
      > When you get these basics down get back with me and I will reconsider
      > taking your political ambitions and your posts a bit more seriously.
      >
      >
      > Until then.... (HONK :-)

      Yes, think of this as a joke. Don't take ideas seriously, or the modern
      world and all its problems seriously, or the future of the Republic
      seriously. Its all just a joke of the kind metaphysical and esoteric
      anyway, isn't it?

      >
      >
      >
      > LVX
      >
      >
      >
      > Br. Ron
      >
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      >
      >
      > >
      > > warm regards,
      > > joel
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > On Wed, 2003-01-01 at 11:14, Br. Ron wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Then there is this, from the Severity Pillar
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > The metaphysics behind the legends of the Grail Knights
      > > > are fairly obvious.
      > > >
      > > > A knight's armor has symbolic meaning extending all the way
      > > > from the single person to nations, states and even the protective
      > > > atmosphere of our planet.
      > > >
      > > > On a personal level, the etheric matrix is our own private armor.
      > > > On a national level, our borders are meant to define this function.
      > > >
      > > > How does this translate to practicality?
      > > >
      > > > As an American, I figure we have over-extended ourselves.
      > > > Our borders are more akin to Swiss cheese than the intended
      > > > boundaries of containment.
      > > >
      > > > Isolationism isn't good, but in cases where the denizens of a
      > > > kingdom don't like us or want us around, I'm for getting
      > > > the hell out.
      > > >
      > > > South Korea doesn't like us. So why are we risking the lives
      > > > of 32,000 men to hold up an ungrateful regime against their
      > > > hungry northern counterparts? Let them follow their own folk
      > > > spirit and become communists if that's what they want..like we
      > > > finally did when we wised up in Vietnam.
      > > >
      > > > I have never once done a ritual or finished a gig in a room
      > > > where my music was unwelcome...nor should we do so on
      > > > an international level.
      > > >
      > > > "No more Mr. Nice Country"
      > > >
      > > > Let these kingdoms deal with their own enemies until such
      > > > time as they either learn to organize the chaos or fly above it
      > > > with their own wings. Either scenario would be productive for
      > > > both them AND us..
      > > >
      > > > If they later find they need America's help THEN maybe we can
      > > > reconsider...and perhaps by then they may have changed their
      > > > convoluted views about our alleged "imperialistic intent".
      > > > (A pickpocket looks at a saint and sees only pockets, no?)
      > > >
      > > > We have enough within our own borders to care for our
      > > > own people's needs...that includes oil if we were to tighten
      > > > our belts a bit.
      > > >
      > > > Time to hermetically close and seal the gap in the Faustian
      > > > circle of international relations.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Br. Ron
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy
      > > Unsubscribe:
      > > anthroposophy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > List owner: anthroposophy-owner@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      > >
    • Br. Ron
      Hark! Canst thou hear it? The sound of breaking wind in yon far glen where the court hunts by moonlight, ... Really now?...Hold this envelope to thy bejeweled
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 2, 2003
         
        Hark! Canst thou hear it? The sound of breaking wind
        in yon far glen where the court hunts by moonlight,
        .....for Joel hath Wendt and done it again.
         
         
            > In your case, you say you aren't being isolationist, but the
            > spirit of what you advocate is.
         
         
        Really now?...Hold this envelope to thy bejeweled brow and
        tell me, oh, Kar-nak! For surely thou hast deeper insights
        into mine own intentions than I....

         
            > The world is far too closely integrated in fact for your
            > advice to work. 
         
         
        But thou hast already demonstrated that thou knowest
        nothing as to the nature of said advice.
         
        I already clearly stated that I wasn't an isolationist but thou
        hast inferred that I was not telling the truth... Avast!
         
         
            > I can see the emotional sense of it (screw them let
            > the swim in their own juices), but nations are not
            > individual people....
         
         
         
        Joel...you are a real piece. You twist my meaning in
        a most disingenuous way. If I didn't know better I would
        almost think that you were a politician or something.
         
        Here is a snip from my last post on the subject
         
        "We have no business interfering where we aren't wanted.
        But we have no business NOT interfering where we are
        genuinely needed, either."
         
        Does that sound 'isolationist' to you?
        A resounding "Nay!" I should proffer!
         
        I am convinced that you haven't even read a single thing
        I have posted anyway. (which is OK...just don't pretend
        that you have, lest thou appearest as but a Richard Nixon
        wannabe)
         
         
            > You said as follows: "On a personal level, the etheric matrix is our own
            > private armor.  On a national level, our borders are meant to define
            > this function."  The nature of the ethereal world has no correspondence
            > to our national borders, which are clearly a convention of human
            > beings. 
         
         
         
        You are absolutely wrong about this and you better learn this
        lesson well if you are going to survive the intense changes
        at hand.  I kid you not about this, my friend.
         
        "As above so below," remember?
         
        The etheric body is, among other things, an "electro-magnetic"
        boundary which helps to preserve one's individualized integrity.
        It has much the same function as the ozone layer of
        the planet which filters out destructive cosmic rays.
         
        National boundaries are but larger analogs of the same thing.
        Humans are not the only entities in the universe in need of protection.
        Nations are entities too. So are molecules, cells, planets, solar systems
        and galaxies.
         
        I admit that there is a rather large spiritual movement to deceive
        the innocent into believing these divisions of consciousness
        shouldn't really exist, but this much I guarantee....such a belief is 
        strictly Luciferic. 
         
         
         
            >What you said above in reply again shows a lack of familiarity
            > with anthroposophical teachings on the ethereal. 
         
         
         
        Don't play the AP game with me, Joel.
        I want some evidence where Rudolph Steiner 
        contradicts one thing I have said, here.
         
        C'mon, ante up!
         
        If you are going to play 'Anthroposophical expert'
        you best put your research where your mouth is.
         
        Otherwise back off... or people will more than likely confuse
        you with Soupy Sales than a serious presidential candidate.
         
         
         
            > What has my political activity to do with this discussion, except to
            > slide off the actual facts under consideration and introduce a red
            > herring? 
         
         
         
        I simply mention it because your posts sound like a typical
        knee-jerk utopian politician with a typical 'border dissolving'  
        solution to every problem...(when at this time at least, it is the
        exact opposite that is needed)
         
        All I have been able to glean from your 'solutions' are
        political delusions of grandeur.
         
        C'mon Buddy....idealism is fine but let's get real, here.
        You appear to be so far out in 'La La Land' that you even
        make Barbara Streisand look like a Supreme Court Justice.
         
         
            > > When you get these basics down get back with me and I will reconsider
            > > taking your political ambitions and your posts a bit more seriously.
            > >
            > >
            > > Until then.... (HONK  :-)

            
            > Yes, think of this as a joke.  Don't take ideas seriously, or the modern
           
        > world and all its problems seriously, or the future of the
        Republic
            > seriously. 
         
         
        Oh, I take real ideas concerning our national and global well being
        VERY seriously. But so far, I find yours to generate about the same
        response in me as a rubber chicken in the Crock-pot.
         
         
         
        BR
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
      • SRC
        ... Dear Ron: Point of fact: the etheric is not ; quite the opposite. The electromagnetic field aroaund the body is a backfire effect
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 2, 2003
          Dear Ron:

          --- "Br. Ron" <rlloyd@...> wrote:

          > The etheric body is, among other things, an "electro-magnetic"
          > boundary which helps to preserve one's individualized integrity.
          > It has much the same function as the ozone layer of
          > the planet which filters out destructive cosmic rays.


          Dear Ron: Point of fact: the etheric is not <electro-magnetic>; quite the
          opposite. The electromagnetic field aroaund the body is a backfire effect
          arising from the interaction of the subtle etheric forces with the
          obstructive nature of physical substance. The etheric forces are
          periphery-centered, the EMFs are point-centered. That they usually occur
          in tandem in the body is no indication that they are the same. The EMFs
          are the Doubles of the etheric forces!

          While the etheric may indeed have some filtering qualities, its main
          function is to uphold the life-forces in the organism; the portion of
          ourselves which we share in common with the plant-Kingdom.

          One of the main faults of modern science is to conflate the subnatural and
          the supersensible. This blind spot you do not yet see. On this point,
          your anthroposophical theory is %100 bass-ackwards.

          Sorry. Happy New Year. A print-out of your Salamander is posted up at
          the changing shed of Tesuque Pueblo's sweat-lodge as of yesterday!

          Stephen


          =====
          Dear Lord, please help me to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am.

          "The most potent weapon of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed."
          - Steven Biko

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        • Br. Ron
          ... Yes, technically I agree, Steven (That s why I put quotes around the word) It s just that electromagnetic comes closest to an everyday understanding of
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 2, 2003
                > Dear Ron:  Point of fact: the etheric is not <electro-magnetic>; quite the
                > opposite.  The electromagnetic field aroaund the body is a backfire effect
                > arising from the interaction of the subtle etheric forces with the
                > obstructive nature of physical substance.  The etheric forces are
                > periphery-centered, the EMFs are point-centered.  That they usually occur
                > in tandem in the body is no  indication that they are the same.  The EMFs
                > are the Doubles of the etheric forces!
             
             
            Yes, technically I agree, Steven (That's why I put "quotes"
            around the word) It's just that "electromagnetic" comes closest to
            an everyday understanding of the dynamics of the aura.

             
                > While the etheric may indeed have some filtering qualities, its main
                > function is to uphold the life-forces in the organism; the portion of
               
            > ourselves which we share in common with the plant-Kingdom.
             
             
            It does this by energy containment however, which is the whole crux
            of my point.  (Bruce has posted some wonderful stuff from the Brothers
            on 'etheric fissures' which shed a lot of light on this issue, I think)
             
            I have my own independent validation too, that reveals the need for
            a tight etheric matrix, without which, we can actually open ourselves
            up to parasitic influences.
             
            (Someone with even a marginally developed psychic sense can
            'see' these little buggars attached to people's auras in some of
            the more unsavory places where drugs and or alcohol are consumed
            in large quantities. As a club performer, I have become quite familiar
            with them)
             
             
                > One of the main faults of modern science is to conflate the subnatural and
                > the supersensible.  This blind spot you do not yet see.  On this point,
                > your anthroposophical theory is %100 bass-ackwards.

             
            Nice try Steven. my views on this have nothing to do with 'theory.'
            They are visual and experiential and hence non-negotiable.
            But if it makes you feel better to parse my words for
            the purposes of one-up-manship, you go for it. We all have our
            needs. :-)
             
            Let's face it. You can't provide objective proof of your points any
            better than I can. All you can do is say "Steiner says" but I don't
            place any more value on his psychic revelations than I do upon
            my own...nor should you.
             
            All we really do in essence is throw out our own experiences
            and if they fit with the experiences of others, fine.
            If they agree with Steiner's experiences, DOUBLE fine...
            But ultimately, all we really have to discuss is our own perspectives.
             
             
                > Sorry.  Happy New Year. 
             
             
            Don't worry be happy.
             
               
                > A print-out of your Salamander is posted up at
                > the changing shed of Tesuque Pueblo's sweat-lodge as of yesterday!
             
             
            What is this? Could it be that thou art proving a man of
            impeccable artistic tastes after all, Stephen? I may have to
            re-examine my initial impulses!
             
             
             
            BR
             
             
             
          • Joel Wendt
            Dear Br. Ron, Okay, you can say you aren t what your posts read as, and if you think that makes a difference, then little point in suggesting otherwise is
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 2, 2003
              Dear Br. Ron,

              Okay, you can say you aren't what your posts read as, and if you think
              that makes a difference, then little point in suggesting otherwise is
              there? But if you sum up all your responses to me all you have done is
              make assertions that you aren't saying what you do say. Whose doing the
              political double talk? As to politics, this is an anthroposophy list,
              not a political list and those are two very different things.

              As to insisting I don't read well, then perhaps you don't write very
              well. Someone want to explain what Br. Ron means here in plain English,
              and why he isn't an isolationist?

              As to quoting Steiner on the ethereal, I don't think I could find
              anything to support your view, when of course you are the one insisting
              you know what is true here. I feel no need to prove to you you don't
              understand the ethereal at all, but you need to prove to me you know
              something about it, rather then assert it.

              One of Steiner's tasks was to lay the foundation for a true science of
              life, which means leading people to how to think about the ethereal so
              that they have real knowledge rather then vague mysticism, which is
              useless for bringing health to life processes.

              What are the Four Ethers? Where are the Ether boundaries (there are
              four - and they meet longitudinally) covering the earth? What is the
              source of the Ethereal Formative Forces? Where does the ethereal
              concentrate on the Plant? What is the relationship between the ethereal
              and projective geometry? Why is the ethereal body of the liver larger
              than the physical organ itself? Are you familiar with Wachschmits
              (sorry for the bad spelling folks) book on the Ethereal Formative Forces
              and the Cosmos? How about Adam's book on Physical and Ethereal Spaces,
              or his truly remarkable Space in the Light of Creation? Have you read
              Adam's and Whicher's The Plant Between the Sun and the Earth? What is
              the relationship between the Sun and the ethereal forces? What is
              negative space? What is the relationship between potentization and
              formative forces? Why does the BD farmer spray small amounts of mists
              over his fields? What is the purpose of the "broadcasting" device
              certain BD farmers now use? How does Margarethe Hauschka's Rhythmical
              Message influence the ethereal body of the human being? What is the
              threefold organism in mammals and man, and how does the ethereal
              influence this form-structure?

              Oh great expert on esoterics, please speak, your fan club is waiting.

              curiouser and curiouser said Alice,
              j.

              On Thu, 2003-01-02 at 16:12, Br. Ron wrote:
              >
              > Hark! Canst thou hear it? The sound of breaking wind
              > in yon far glen where the court hunts by moonlight,
              > .....for Joel hath Wendt and done it again.
              >
              >
              > > In your case, you say you aren't being isolationist, but the
              > > spirit of what you advocate is.
              >
              >
              > Really now?...Hold this envelope to thy bejeweled brow and
              > tell me, oh, Kar-nak! For surely thou hast deeper insights
              > into mine own intentions than I....
              >
              >
              > > The world is far too closely integrated in fact for your
              > > advice to work.
              >
              >
              > But thou hast already demonstrated that thou knowest
              > nothing as to the nature of said advice.
              >
              > I already clearly stated that I wasn't an isolationist but thou
              > hast inferred that I was not telling the truth... Avast!
              >
              >
              > > I can see the emotional sense of it (screw them let
              > > the swim in their own juices), but nations are not
              > > individual people....
              >
              >
              >
              > Joel...you are a real piece. You twist my meaning in
              > a most disingenuous way. If I didn't know better I would
              > almost think that you were a politician or something.
              >
              > Here is a snip from my last post on the subject
              >
              > "We have no business interfering where we aren't wanted.
              > But we have no business NOT interfering where we are
              > genuinely needed, either."
              >
              > Does that sound 'isolationist' to you?
              > A resounding "Nay!" I should proffer!
              >
              > I am convinced that you haven't even read a single thing
              > I have posted anyway. (which is OK...just don't pretend
              > that you have, lest thou appearest as but a Richard Nixon
              > wannabe)
              >
              >
              > > You said as follows: "On a personal level, the etheric matrix is our own
              > > private armor. On a national level, our borders are meant to define
              > > this function." The nature of the ethereal world has no correspondence
              > > to our national borders, which are clearly a convention of human
              > > beings.
              >
              >
              >
              > You are absolutely wrong about this and you better learn this
              > lesson well if you are going to survive the intense changes
              > at hand. I kid you not about this, my friend.
              >
              > "As above so below," remember?
              >
              > The etheric body is, among other things, an "electro-magnetic"
              > boundary which helps to preserve one's individualized integrity.
              > It has much the same function as the ozone layer of
              > the planet which filters out destructive cosmic rays.
              >
              > National boundaries are but larger analogs of the same thing.
              > Humans are not the only entities in the universe in need of protection.
              > Nations are entities too. So are molecules, cells, planets, solar systems
              > and galaxies.
              >
              > I admit that there is a rather large spiritual movement to deceive
              > the innocent into believing these divisions of consciousness
              > shouldn't really exist, but this much I guarantee....such a belief is
              > strictly Luciferic.
              >
              >
              >
              > >What you said above in reply again shows a lack of familiarity
              > > with anthroposophical teachings on the ethereal.
              >
              >
              >
              > Don't play the AP game with me, Joel.
              > I want some evidence where Rudolph Steiner
              > contradicts one thing I have said, here.
              >
              > C'mon, ante up!
              >
              > If you are going to play 'Anthroposophical expert'
              > you best put your research where your mouth is.
              >
              > Otherwise back off... or people will more than likely confuse
              > you with Soupy Sales than a serious presidential candidate.
              >
              >
              >
              > > What has my political activity to do with this discussion, except to
              > > slide off the actual facts under consideration and introduce a red
              > > herring?
              >
              >
              >
              > I simply mention it because your posts sound like a typical
              > knee-jerk utopian politician with a typical 'border dissolving'
              > solution to every problem...(when at this time at least, it is the
              > exact opposite that is needed)
              >
              > All I have been able to glean from your 'solutions' are
              > political delusions of grandeur.
              >
              > C'mon Buddy....idealism is fine but let's get real, here.
              > You appear to be so far out in 'La La Land' that you even
              > make Barbara Streisand look like a Supreme Court Justice.
              >
              >
              > > > When you get these basics down get back with me and I will reconsider
              > > > taking your political ambitions and your posts a bit more seriously.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Until then.... (HONK :-)
              >
              >
              > > Yes, think of this as a joke. Don't take ideas seriously, or the modern
              > > world and all its problems seriously, or the future of the Republic
              > > seriously.
              >
              >
              > Oh, I take real ideas concerning our national and global well being
              > VERY seriously. But so far, I find yours to generate about the same
              > response in me as a rubber chicken in the Crock-pot.
              >
              >
              >
              > BR
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Joel Wendt
              ... I set this one aside, because I wanted to keep separate discussions of anthroposophy and of politics. As you probably don t know, Steiner stated at the
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 2, 2003
                On Thu, 2003-01-02 at 16:12, Br. Ron wrote:

                >
                > Oh, I take real ideas concerning our national and global well being
                > VERY seriously. But so far, I find yours to generate about the same
                > response in me as a rubber chicken in the Crock-pot.
                >

                I set this one aside, because I wanted to keep separate discussions of
                anthroposophy and of politics. As you probably don't know, Steiner
                stated at the Christmas Conference that "politics was not the mission of
                the anthroposophical movement". If you would like to understand why
                this is so, you might read the three lectures published under the title:
                "The Inner Aspect of the Social Question", which provides the basis for
                Steiner's admonition.

                This doesn't mean there aren't people with political "missions", but
                what that is about and why is a whole other question.

                What I would like is for you to demonstrate that you know anything about
                my "politics". Again, you make assertions about my ideas, and indulge
                in name calling, but that is neither rational or instructive - it is
                just empty talk.

                What is the main impulse of my political work? And, why is it defective
                in any way?

                yours for a renewal of the Republic,
                joel
              • Br. Ron
                (Joel) ... Perhaps so but you certainly react to the political topics as if it were... ... Behold! I am told it really is possible to turn lead into crystal so
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 2, 2003
                  (Joel)
                      > As to politics, this is an anthroposophy list,
                      > not a political list and those are two very different things.


                  Perhaps so but you certainly react to the political
                  topics as if it were...
                   
                   
                      > As to insisting I don't read well, then perhaps you don't write very
                      > well.  Someone want to explain what Br. Ron means here in plain English,
                      > and why he isn't an isolationist?
                   
                   
                  Behold! I am told it really is possible to turn lead into crystal
                  so is the core of my post for the 3rd time:

                  I said, "We have no business interfering where we aren't wanted.
                  But we have no business NOT interfering where we are
                  genuinely needed, either."

                  This is pretty plain, aint it?  What part of this are you having
                  trouble with? Where is the isolationism in these words?
                   
                  Joel, grab your dictionary and look up the word 'sophomoric'
                  and you just may find your picture there.
                   
                  I could just as easily have asked "Will someone explain to me in
                  plain English if Joel has quit beating his wife, yet" but that
                  would be equally as sophomoric.
                   
                   
                      > As to quoting Steiner on the ethereal, I don't think I could find
                      > anything to support your view, when of course you are the one insisting
                      > you know what is true here.  I feel no need to prove to you you don't
                      > understand the ethereal at all, but you need to prove to me you know
                      > something about it, rather then assert it.
                   
                   
                  You challenged my position. The burden of proof is therefore
                  yours. But of course we both know you can't so I shall allow
                  you to gracefully bow out of this embarrassing fax pax.
                   

                      > One of Steiner's tasks was to lay the foundation for a true science of
                      > life, which means leading people to how to think about the ethereal so
                      > that they have real knowledge rather then vague mysticism, which is
                      > useless for bringing health to life processes.
                   
                   
                  Have you ever been to a Cistercian monastery? These 'mystics
                  live well into their 90s and many are over 100. These men
                  are amongst the healthiest humanity has to offer. A mystical life
                  of devotion and prayer DOES bring health to the life processes.
                  But you would have to experience what I'm talking about, not
                  just read about it.
                   
                   
                      > What are the Four Ethers?  Where are the Ether boundaries (there are
                      > four - and they meet longitudinally) covering the earth?  What is the
                      > source of the Ethereal Formative Forces?  Where does the ethereal
                      > concentrate on the Plant?  What is the relationship between the ethereal
                      > and projective geometry? Why is the ethereal body of the liver larger
                     
                  > than the physical organ itself?  Are you familiar with
                  Wachschmits
                      > (sorry for the bad spelling folks) book on the Ethereal Formative Forces
                      > and the Cosmos?  How about Adam's book on Physical and Ethereal Spaces,
                      > or his truly remarkable Space in the Light of Creation?  Have you read
                      > Adam's and Whicher's The Plant Between the Sun and the Earth?  What is
                     
                  > the relationship between the Sun and the ethereal forces?  What
                  is
                      > negative space?  What is the relationship between potentization and
                      > formative forces?  Why does the BD farmer spray small amounts of mists
                      > over his fields?  What is the purpose of the "broadcasting" device
                      > certain BD farmers now use?  How does Margarethe Hauschka's Rhythmical
                      > Message influence the ethereal body of the human being?  What is the
                     
                  > threefold organism in mammals and man, and how does the
                  ethereal
                      > influence this form-structure? Oh great expert on esoterics, please
                      > speak, your fan club is waiting.
                   
                   
                  Yaaaawwwwn...(snort) Huh?...Oh!...excuse me...uh, where were we?
                   
                  Oh yeah, actually, as I was saying, I have great compassion for 
                  your predicament.
                   
                  It's like the poor guy who spent his whole life reading about
                  how to play the piano. Then when his recital debut finally arrived,
                  all he could do is sit there and explain to the audience how pianos
                  are played.
                   
                  I am starting to see a genuine pathology amongst many
                  self proclaimed Anthroposophists...and that is this:
                   
                  Not a one of them has ever had an original thought!
                   
                  ..... they sure are good at aping Steiner, though.
                   
                  This of course is the very antithesis of what RS himself wanted
                  for his students, isn't it?  
                   
                   
                  Oh oh!..."Houston...we have a problem"......(back to the
                  instruction manual).
                   
                   
                   
                   
                  BR
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                • Br. Ron
                  ... From: Joel Wendt ... Joel...talk to me...please...if there is a turd on the kitchen table you don t need to quote Steiner on why it
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 3, 2003
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Joel Wendt" <hermit@...>
                     
                        > I set this one aside, because I wanted to keep separate discussions of
                        > anthroposophy and of politics.  As you probably don't know, Steiner
                        > stated at the Christmas Conference that "politics was not the mission of
                        > the anthroposophical movement".  If you would like to understand why
                        > this is so, you might read the three lectures published under the title:
                        > "The Inner Aspect of the Social Question", which provides the basis for
                        > Steiner's admonition.
                     
                     
                    Joel...talk to me...please...if there is a turd on the kitchen table
                    you don't need to quote Steiner on why it doesn't belong there.
                    If you want to keep politics separate from our discussions then
                    just do it....yourself...without Steiner...You can do it on your
                    own, Joel......I know you can! 
                     
                     
                        > This doesn't mean there aren't people with political "missions", but
                        > what that is about and why is a whole other question.
                     
                     
                    OK..then let's move on..I'm fine with that.

                     
                        > What I would like is for you to demonstrate that you know anything about
                        > my "politics".  Again, you make assertions about my ideas, and indulge
                        > in name calling, but that is neither rational or instructive - it is
                        > just empty talk.
                     
                     
                    Oh...so you DO want to talk about politics. As you wish.
                    The truth is, I know nothing about your politics, Joel except what

                     
                        > What is the main impulse of my political work?  And, why is it defective
                        > in any way?
                     
                     
                    I never said it was. In fact, I rather think you have some viable political
                    qualities. (You do show a tad of spunk and perseverance)
                     
                    I probably would even go so far as to say that you might even
                    make a better president than many we have had, so far. 
                     
                    I am not opposed to you Joel. In fact, we probably have more in
                    common than you would like to admit.
                     
                    We both liked to hang out in Montana,...we both smoked a lot
                    of dope in the 70s.....We both have egos the size of a Buick.
                     
                    But until you remove your head from the Southern orifice of that
                    North bound mule and come down from that wearisome, overcrowded 
                    Anthroposophical ivory tower of pseudo-intellectual superiority,
                    you won't even make it to the Powder Puff Derby.
                     
                    There is hope, however...We'll start by leaning you up against a tree
                    and hosing you off...then a shave, a haircut and a new suit...
                     
                    Then we can get you a bunch of books on how to kiss babies, etc.
                     
                     
                     
                    BR
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                  • Br. Ron
                    ... As an Abbot, I can imagine his heart was surely broken. ... Thanks for your input, Andrea. While these things were seldom an issue in my monastery I do
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 3, 2003
                              >>These 'mystics live well into their 90s and many are over 100. 
                             >>are amongst the healthiest humanity has to offer. A mystical life
                              >>of devotion and prayer DOES bring health to the life processes.

                          >Excuse me in advance Br.Ron if I jump in in your duel with Joel
                          >but since I live in a country full of Cistercian and Benedectine
                          >monasteries i have the duty to give you (and the list) the other
                          >side of the coin.

                          >A while ago i spent a time in Uliveto's Monte Maggiore Monastery in Toscana -
                          >(I presently use to spend some weekend in the S.Benedetto Monastery
                          > near Subiaco) and the Abate ("Commander in Chief") opened his heart
                          > and told me about, with deep grief- of the decadence of the institutions
                          > he had to lead.
                       
                       
                      As an Abbot, I can imagine his heart was surely broken.
                       

                         
                      >Homosexuality,Alcoholism, Lack of Religious life, Politicism : those are the
                          >monsters that, as he stated, show presently the decadence of the traditional
                          >spiritual life and the hard times that is now living such a once powerful
                          >religious brotherood here in Italy.
                       
                       
                      Thanks for your input, Andrea.
                       
                      While these things were seldom an issue in my monastery
                      I do know they exist in some others. Not only the Church,
                      but institutionalism itself is being purged these days.
                       
                      Monks are like Anthroposophists. There are good ones and bad ones.
                       
                      I wasn't however promoting monasteries as a solution to the world's ills
                      but simply making the point that a devout life of mystical prayer is
                      indeed a healthy one, if earnestly adhered to. (in contradistinction to
                      Joel's 'true believer' assertion that only AP was health producing while
                      mystical devotion was not)
                       
                       
                      LVX
                       
                       
                      BR
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                    • Joel Wendt
                      ... No, I don t want to talk about politics on an anthroposophy list. On an anthroposophy list I want to talk about spiritual science. As far as ivory towers
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 3, 2003
                        On Fri, 2003-01-03 at 03:29, Br. Ron wrote:

                        >
                        > Oh...so you DO want to talk about politics. As you wish.
                        > The truth is, I know nothing about your politics, Joel except what
                        > I read at: http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/gmg7a.html

                        No, I don't want to talk about politics on an anthroposophy list. On an
                        anthroposophy list I want to talk about spiritual science. As far as
                        ivory towers go, the only reason it looks to you like I am on one is
                        because you keep insisting you know something about anthroposophy when
                        clearly you know very little.

                        I don't think you need to know anything about it by the way, that's a
                        choice one get to make. But when you speak of it, and misrepresent it,
                        on an anthroposophy list, then don't get your shorts in a knot if
                        someone who can see how full of it you are steps on your preconceptions
                        and horse pucky.

                        Now if I was to try to run music stuff past you, you'd see in a moment I
                        was faking it. So when you fake it about anthroposophy, well, you
                        deserve what you get.

                        Glad to know what you think about my politics given what little you
                        know. There's a campaign website (http://ipwebdev.com/campaign), and on
                        those pages an e-mail link so if you want to go deeper into it (yea we
                        are probably a lot of like, that's why we're both assholes), check it
                        out and we can be political off the list.

                        But, when you sing wrong notes, with some horrible disharmonies, about
                        anthroposophy, I am going throw some harsh words at you, so wear your
                        battle armor, ok?

                        warm regards,
                        joel
                      • Br. Ron
                        From: Joel Wendt ... As you wish ... Whatchoo talkin bout? (he sez in his best Gary Coleman) I never claimed to know anything bout
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 3, 2003
                           
                          From: "Joel Wendt" <hermit@...>
                           
                              > > Oh...so you DO want to talk about politics. As you wish.
                              > > The truth is, I know nothing about your politics, Joel except what
                              >
                          > I read at:
                          face=Arial size=2>http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/gmg7a.html
                             >
                              > No, I don't want to talk about politics on an anthroposophy list. 
                           
                           
                          As you wish
                           
                           
                              >  But when you speak of it, and misrepresent it,
                              > on an anthroposophy list, then don't get your shorts in a knot if
                              > someone who can see how full of it you are steps on your preconceptions
                              > and horse pucky.>
                              > Now if I was to try to run music stuff past you, you'd see in a moment I
                              > was faking it.  So when you fake it about anthroposophy, well, you
                              > deserve what you get.
                           
                           
                          Whatchoo talkin bout? (he sez in his best Gary Coleman)
                          I never claimed to know anything 'bout Anthroposophy. 
                          Hell, I haven't even mastered wheelbarrows yet
                          (machinery intimidates me)
                           
                          No, I never claimed to be an Anthroposophist, Joel.
                          In fact I have made it quite clear several times that I don't
                          even like Anthroposophists.
                           
                          (I do love much of what Rudolph Steiner has written, however)
                           
                           
                              > Glad to know what you think about my politics given what little you
                              > know.  There's a campaign website (
                          http://ipwebdev.com/campaign), and on
                              > those pages an e-mail link so if you want to go deeper into it
                           
                           
                          Well whadda ya think about me being your campaign manager?
                          I have been being tutored by the ghost of PT Barnum, I'll bet
                          together we could chew up a few mean cigars. Maybe we could
                          even get Bradford to be your speech writer.
                           
                           
                              >yea we are probably a lot of like, that's why we're both assholes
                           
                           
                          Speaking of that, did you know I'm having a colostomy on Tuesday?
                          Shucks, if you don't want to discuss politics, maybe you'd rather
                          look into......
                           
                           
                              > But, when you sing wrong notes, with some horrible
                              > disharmonies, about anthroposophy, I am going throw some
                              > harsh words at you, so wear your battle armor, ok?
                           
                           
                          Sure...I got my leathers on and my weapon is unsheathed,
                          erect and ready for the charge (ahem, forgive me Sigmund)
                           
                          Anyway, before we retire to the coliseum, I need to know
                          what Anthroposophical misrepresentation I am charged with.
                           
                          Betcha can't do it...seeing as how I never claimed to represent
                          AP in the first place....but that's OK I just saw Russell Crowe in
                          The Gladiator for the 3rd time and I am PUMPED!
                           
                           
                          (See attachment)
                           
                           
                          Et tu, Commodious? Prepare to taste my metal!
                           
                          (Commodious?...Sheesh I just can't get away from
                          this potty mouth, today)
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                          BR
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                        • Br. Ron
                          ... GREAT!!!!!!!! THIS IS THE DEEPEST TRUTH I HAVE EVER EXPERIENCED IN THE CYBERWORLD111 Sincerely yours, Mr.Spaghetti Hey watch it, Mr. Spaghetti. Yer
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 4, 2003
                             
                             
                                >yea we are probably a lot of like, that's why we're both assholes
                             
                            GREAT!!!!!!!!
                             THIS IS THE DEEPEST TRUTH I HAVE  EVER EXPERIENCED IN THE CYBERWORLD111
                             
                            Sincerely yours,
                            Mr.Spaghetti 
                             
                            Hey watch it, Mr. Spaghetti.
                            Yer gettin' kinda saucy there.
                             
                            Tony Soprano is off until next season
                            but I have his private number and he owes me a favor.
                             
                             
                            Brotherri Ronacci
                             
                             
                             
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