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Re: [anthroposophy] Back to the Blacksmith

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  • Br. Ron
    (Joel) ... Old news, Joel. ... Reactionary? Yeeeeooow! You have reacted here without even giving one iota of thought to what I have written. Try re-reading my
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 1, 2003
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           (Joel)
          > The old saw, "no man is an island", is equally true with regard to
          > nations in the world of the present.  We are not only intensely
         
      > interrelated, but these interrelations are exactly the intentions
      and
          > wishes of the Divine within and without.
       
       
      Old news, Joel.

       
          > The moral future depends upon our taking responsibility for each other
          > in profound ways, and political isolationism is about as reactionary as
          > one can get.
       
       
      Reactionary? Yeeeeooow! You have reacted here without even giving one iota
      of thought to what I have written.
       
      Try re-reading my post. I have already said that isolationism isn't the answer
      but that we on the other hand cannot enforce our will or "take responsibility" for
      those who do not want it. If you are going to disagree with something I say
      you best be sure that it isn't something backed up by such common sense
      as this.  Otherwise it'll jes make ya look like a fooo' 
       
       

          > In addition, your comparison of our national borders to the ethereal is
          > also just plain silly, and shows no comprehension of the real facts of
          > the ethers that Steiner and others have spend so much effort in
          > developing.
       
       
      Joel...I don't know what parts of Steiner you have (or haven't) been reading
      but the protective aura is BASIC to any kind of esoteric spiritual practice.
      A tight and unperforated etheric body is the very foundation upon which
      sane hermetics are based. 

       
          > But then, maybe you were speaking in some private metaphysical
          > language, and did not intend the words used to have their ordinary and
          > accepted meaning.
       
       
      I can't argue with your apparent desire to align yourself with that which is
      'ordinary.'  But how can you expect others to support your run for the presidency
      if you haven't yet learned that creating boundaries is every bit as important
      as dissolving them?
       
      When you get these basics down get back with me and I will reconsider
      taking your political ambitions and your posts a bit more seriously.
       
       
      Until then.... (HONK  :-)
       
       
       
      LVX
       
       
       
      Br. Ron
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       

      >
      > warm regards,
      >
      joel
      >
      >
      >
      > On Wed, 2003-01-01 at 11:14, Br. Ron
      wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Then there is
      this, from the Severity Pillar
      > >
      > >
      > > The
      metaphysics behind the legends of the Grail Knights
      > > are fairly
      obvious.
      > >
      > > A knight's armor has symbolic meaning
      extending all the way
      > > from the single person to nations, states
      and even the protective
      > > atmosphere of our planet.
      > >
      > > On a personal level, the etheric matrix is our own private
      armor.
      > > On a national level, our borders are meant to define this
      function.
      > >
      > > How does this translate to
      practicality?
      > >
      > > As an American, I figure we have
      over-extended ourselves.
      > > Our borders are more akin to Swiss cheese
      than the intended
      > > boundaries of containment.
      > >
      > > Isolationism isn't good, but in cases where the denizens of a
      > >
      kingdom don't like us or want us around, I'm for getting
      > > the hell
      out.
      > >
      > > South Korea doesn't like us. So why are we
      risking the lives
      > > of 32,000 men to hold up an ungrateful regime
      against their
      > > hungry northern counterparts? Let them follow their
      own folk
      > > spirit and become communists if that's what they
      want..like we
      > > finally did when we wised up in Vietnam.
      > >
      > > I have never once done a ritual or finished a gig in a room
      > > where my music was unwelcome...nor should we do so on
      > > an international level.
      > >
      > > "No more Mr. Nice
      Country"
      > >
      > > Let these kingdoms deal with their own
      enemies until such
      > > time as they either learn to organize the chaos
      or fly above it
      > > with their own wings. Either scenario would be
      productive for
      > > both them AND us..
      > >
      > > If
      they later find they need America's help THEN maybe we can
      > >
      reconsider...and perhaps by then they may have changed their
      > >
      convoluted views about our alleged "imperialistic intent".
      > > (A
      pickpocket looks at a saint and sees only pockets, no?)
      > >
      > > We have enough within our own borders to care for our
      > > own
      people's needs...that includes oil if we were to tighten
      > > our belts
      a bit.
      > >
      > > Time to hermetically close and seal the gap in
      the Faustian
      > > circle of international relations.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Br. Ron
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Joel Wendt
      ... Yes, you did say that, but what you described in isolationism. You used the following terms in the message: our borders , nor should we do so (be
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 2, 2003
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        On Wed, 2003-01-01 at 13:13, Br. Ron wrote:
        > > The moral future depends upon our taking responsibility for each other
        > > in profound ways, and political isolationism is about as reactionary as
        > > one can get.
        >
        >
        > Reactionary? Yeeeeooow! You have reacted here without even giving one iota
        > of thought to what I have written.
        >
        > Try re-reading my post. I have already said that isolationism isn't the answer

        Yes, you did "say" that, but what you described in isolationism. You
        used the following terms in the message: "our borders", "nor should we
        do so (be where we are unwelcome) on an international level", "let these
        kingdoms deal with their own enemies", "We have enough within our our
        borders...", and "Time to hermetically close...circle of international
        relations."

        People do that a lot - say they aren't doing something, and then go
        ahead and do it anyway - because semi-consciously they know they are
        doing it. In your case, you say you aren't being isolationist, but the
        spirit of what you advocate is.

        The world is far too closely integrated in fact for your advice to
        work. We don't have such a choice, the necessities are otherwise. This
        is why the views you actually express are reactionary (they imagine the
        present to be like a time that only existed in the past). Now I am not
        saying that the Bush II administration is acting in the wisest way, I am
        saying that what you advocate is impossible - it won't work, and in fact
        would have all manner of terrible consequences.

        I can see the emotional sense of it (screw them let the swim in their
        own juices), but nations are not individual people, and how one nation
        behaves toward another can only follow such an analogy in a very
        superficial way. Nations unfortunately have to follow not only all kinds
        of other rules in the modern world - the facts of interdependence
        require it. We are all swimming in the same sea, and what one does
        effects all.

        > but that we on the other hand cannot enforce our will or "take responsibility" for
        > those who do not want it. If you are going to disagree with something I say
        > you best be sure that it isn't something backed up by such common sense
        > as this. Otherwise it'll jes make ya look like a fooo'
        >
        >
        >
        > > In addition, your comparison of our national borders to the ethereal is
        > > also just plain silly, and shows no comprehension of the real facts of
        > > the ethers that Steiner and others have spend so much effort in
        > > developing.
        >
        >
        > Joel...I don't know what parts of Steiner you have (or haven't) been reading
        > but the protective aura is BASIC to any kind of esoteric spiritual practice.
        > A tight and unperforated etheric body is the very foundation upon which
        > sane hermetics are based.

        You said as follows: "On a personal level, the etheric matrix is our own
        private armor. On a national level, our borders are meant to define
        this function." The nature of the ethereal world has no correspondence
        to our national borders, which are clearly a convention of human
        beings. What you said above in reply again shows a lack of familiarity
        with anthroposophical teachings on the ethereal. All you have done is
        to insist that because you have gotten a certain kind of idea from some
        "esoteric spiritual practice", that this applies to the real world in
        the way you imagine. The whole point of "spiritual science", which you
        still haven't gotten, is to actual knowledge, no dreamy ideas about
        spiritual realities. Do you claim to "see" the etheric body of the
        earthly political borders of the United States? Have you a text you can
        refer to that describes such a fact?

        >
        >
        > > But then, maybe you were speaking in some private metaphysical
        > > language, and did not intend the words used to have their ordinary and
        > > accepted meaning.
        >
        >
        > I can't argue with your apparent desire to align yourself with that which is
        > 'ordinary.' But how can you expect others to support your run for the presidency
        > if you haven't yet learned that creating boundaries is every bit as important
        > as dissolving them?

        What has my political activity to do with this discussion, except to
        slide off the actual facts under consideration and introduce a red
        herring? But that aside, please describe for us how the creation of
        borders, as you seem to think applies here, works in international
        relations. You might want to accompany that discourse with examples
        from recent history, and include in those examples places where the
        border (which to you seems to mean one group having nothing to do with
        their neighbors) has a positive effect on either party or the rest of
        us.

        >
        > When you get these basics down get back with me and I will reconsider
        > taking your political ambitions and your posts a bit more seriously.
        >
        >
        > Until then.... (HONK :-)

        Yes, think of this as a joke. Don't take ideas seriously, or the modern
        world and all its problems seriously, or the future of the Republic
        seriously. Its all just a joke of the kind metaphysical and esoteric
        anyway, isn't it?

        >
        >
        >
        > LVX
        >
        >
        >
        > Br. Ron
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        >
        >
        >
        >
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        >
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        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > >
        > > warm regards,
        > > joel
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > On Wed, 2003-01-01 at 11:14, Br. Ron wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Then there is this, from the Severity Pillar
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > The metaphysics behind the legends of the Grail Knights
        > > > are fairly obvious.
        > > >
        > > > A knight's armor has symbolic meaning extending all the way
        > > > from the single person to nations, states and even the protective
        > > > atmosphere of our planet.
        > > >
        > > > On a personal level, the etheric matrix is our own private armor.
        > > > On a national level, our borders are meant to define this function.
        > > >
        > > > How does this translate to practicality?
        > > >
        > > > As an American, I figure we have over-extended ourselves.
        > > > Our borders are more akin to Swiss cheese than the intended
        > > > boundaries of containment.
        > > >
        > > > Isolationism isn't good, but in cases where the denizens of a
        > > > kingdom don't like us or want us around, I'm for getting
        > > > the hell out.
        > > >
        > > > South Korea doesn't like us. So why are we risking the lives
        > > > of 32,000 men to hold up an ungrateful regime against their
        > > > hungry northern counterparts? Let them follow their own folk
        > > > spirit and become communists if that's what they want..like we
        > > > finally did when we wised up in Vietnam.
        > > >
        > > > I have never once done a ritual or finished a gig in a room
        > > > where my music was unwelcome...nor should we do so on
        > > > an international level.
        > > >
        > > > "No more Mr. Nice Country"
        > > >
        > > > Let these kingdoms deal with their own enemies until such
        > > > time as they either learn to organize the chaos or fly above it
        > > > with their own wings. Either scenario would be productive for
        > > > both them AND us..
        > > >
        > > > If they later find they need America's help THEN maybe we can
        > > > reconsider...and perhaps by then they may have changed their
        > > > convoluted views about our alleged "imperialistic intent".
        > > > (A pickpocket looks at a saint and sees only pockets, no?)
        > > >
        > > > We have enough within our own borders to care for our
        > > > own people's needs...that includes oil if we were to tighten
        > > > our belts a bit.
        > > >
        > > > Time to hermetically close and seal the gap in the Faustian
        > > > circle of international relations.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Br. Ron
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy
        > > Unsubscribe:
        > > anthroposophy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > List owner: anthroposophy-owner@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
      • Br. Ron
        Hark! Canst thou hear it? The sound of breaking wind in yon far glen where the court hunts by moonlight, ... Really now?...Hold this envelope to thy bejeweled
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 2, 2003
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          Hark! Canst thou hear it? The sound of breaking wind
          in yon far glen where the court hunts by moonlight,
          .....for Joel hath Wendt and done it again.
           
           
              > In your case, you say you aren't being isolationist, but the
              > spirit of what you advocate is.
           
           
          Really now?...Hold this envelope to thy bejeweled brow and
          tell me, oh, Kar-nak! For surely thou hast deeper insights
          into mine own intentions than I....

           
              > The world is far too closely integrated in fact for your
              > advice to work. 
           
           
          But thou hast already demonstrated that thou knowest
          nothing as to the nature of said advice.
           
          I already clearly stated that I wasn't an isolationist but thou
          hast inferred that I was not telling the truth... Avast!
           
           
              > I can see the emotional sense of it (screw them let
              > the swim in their own juices), but nations are not
              > individual people....
           
           
           
          Joel...you are a real piece. You twist my meaning in
          a most disingenuous way. If I didn't know better I would
          almost think that you were a politician or something.
           
          Here is a snip from my last post on the subject
           
          "We have no business interfering where we aren't wanted.
          But we have no business NOT interfering where we are
          genuinely needed, either."
           
          Does that sound 'isolationist' to you?
          A resounding "Nay!" I should proffer!
           
          I am convinced that you haven't even read a single thing
          I have posted anyway. (which is OK...just don't pretend
          that you have, lest thou appearest as but a Richard Nixon
          wannabe)
           
           
              > You said as follows: "On a personal level, the etheric matrix is our own
              > private armor.  On a national level, our borders are meant to define
              > this function."  The nature of the ethereal world has no correspondence
              > to our national borders, which are clearly a convention of human
              > beings. 
           
           
           
          You are absolutely wrong about this and you better learn this
          lesson well if you are going to survive the intense changes
          at hand.  I kid you not about this, my friend.
           
          "As above so below," remember?
           
          The etheric body is, among other things, an "electro-magnetic"
          boundary which helps to preserve one's individualized integrity.
          It has much the same function as the ozone layer of
          the planet which filters out destructive cosmic rays.
           
          National boundaries are but larger analogs of the same thing.
          Humans are not the only entities in the universe in need of protection.
          Nations are entities too. So are molecules, cells, planets, solar systems
          and galaxies.
           
          I admit that there is a rather large spiritual movement to deceive
          the innocent into believing these divisions of consciousness
          shouldn't really exist, but this much I guarantee....such a belief is 
          strictly Luciferic. 
           
           
           
              >What you said above in reply again shows a lack of familiarity
              > with anthroposophical teachings on the ethereal. 
           
           
           
          Don't play the AP game with me, Joel.
          I want some evidence where Rudolph Steiner 
          contradicts one thing I have said, here.
           
          C'mon, ante up!
           
          If you are going to play 'Anthroposophical expert'
          you best put your research where your mouth is.
           
          Otherwise back off... or people will more than likely confuse
          you with Soupy Sales than a serious presidential candidate.
           
           
           
              > What has my political activity to do with this discussion, except to
              > slide off the actual facts under consideration and introduce a red
              > herring? 
           
           
           
          I simply mention it because your posts sound like a typical
          knee-jerk utopian politician with a typical 'border dissolving'  
          solution to every problem...(when at this time at least, it is the
          exact opposite that is needed)
           
          All I have been able to glean from your 'solutions' are
          political delusions of grandeur.
           
          C'mon Buddy....idealism is fine but let's get real, here.
          You appear to be so far out in 'La La Land' that you even
          make Barbara Streisand look like a Supreme Court Justice.
           
           
              > > When you get these basics down get back with me and I will reconsider
              > > taking your political ambitions and your posts a bit more seriously.
              > >
              > >
              > > Until then.... (HONK  :-)

              
              > Yes, think of this as a joke.  Don't take ideas seriously, or the modern
             
          > world and all its problems seriously, or the future of the
          Republic
              > seriously. 
           
           
          Oh, I take real ideas concerning our national and global well being
          VERY seriously. But so far, I find yours to generate about the same
          response in me as a rubber chicken in the Crock-pot.
           
           
           
          BR
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
        • SRC
          ... Dear Ron: Point of fact: the etheric is not ; quite the opposite. The electromagnetic field aroaund the body is a backfire effect
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 2, 2003
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            Dear Ron:

            --- "Br. Ron" <rlloyd@...> wrote:

            > The etheric body is, among other things, an "electro-magnetic"
            > boundary which helps to preserve one's individualized integrity.
            > It has much the same function as the ozone layer of
            > the planet which filters out destructive cosmic rays.


            Dear Ron: Point of fact: the etheric is not <electro-magnetic>; quite the
            opposite. The electromagnetic field aroaund the body is a backfire effect
            arising from the interaction of the subtle etheric forces with the
            obstructive nature of physical substance. The etheric forces are
            periphery-centered, the EMFs are point-centered. That they usually occur
            in tandem in the body is no indication that they are the same. The EMFs
            are the Doubles of the etheric forces!

            While the etheric may indeed have some filtering qualities, its main
            function is to uphold the life-forces in the organism; the portion of
            ourselves which we share in common with the plant-Kingdom.

            One of the main faults of modern science is to conflate the subnatural and
            the supersensible. This blind spot you do not yet see. On this point,
            your anthroposophical theory is %100 bass-ackwards.

            Sorry. Happy New Year. A print-out of your Salamander is posted up at
            the changing shed of Tesuque Pueblo's sweat-lodge as of yesterday!

            Stephen


            =====
            Dear Lord, please help me to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am.

            "The most potent weapon of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed."
            - Steven Biko

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          • Br. Ron
            ... Yes, technically I agree, Steven (That s why I put quotes around the word) It s just that electromagnetic comes closest to an everyday understanding of
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 2, 2003
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                  > Dear Ron:  Point of fact: the etheric is not <electro-magnetic>; quite the
                  > opposite.  The electromagnetic field aroaund the body is a backfire effect
                  > arising from the interaction of the subtle etheric forces with the
                  > obstructive nature of physical substance.  The etheric forces are
                  > periphery-centered, the EMFs are point-centered.  That they usually occur
                  > in tandem in the body is no  indication that they are the same.  The EMFs
                  > are the Doubles of the etheric forces!
               
               
              Yes, technically I agree, Steven (That's why I put "quotes"
              around the word) It's just that "electromagnetic" comes closest to
              an everyday understanding of the dynamics of the aura.

               
                  > While the etheric may indeed have some filtering qualities, its main
                  > function is to uphold the life-forces in the organism; the portion of
                 
              > ourselves which we share in common with the plant-Kingdom.
               
               
              It does this by energy containment however, which is the whole crux
              of my point.  (Bruce has posted some wonderful stuff from the Brothers
              on 'etheric fissures' which shed a lot of light on this issue, I think)
               
              I have my own independent validation too, that reveals the need for
              a tight etheric matrix, without which, we can actually open ourselves
              up to parasitic influences.
               
              (Someone with even a marginally developed psychic sense can
              'see' these little buggars attached to people's auras in some of
              the more unsavory places where drugs and or alcohol are consumed
              in large quantities. As a club performer, I have become quite familiar
              with them)
               
               
                  > One of the main faults of modern science is to conflate the subnatural and
                  > the supersensible.  This blind spot you do not yet see.  On this point,
                  > your anthroposophical theory is %100 bass-ackwards.

               
              Nice try Steven. my views on this have nothing to do with 'theory.'
              They are visual and experiential and hence non-negotiable.
              But if it makes you feel better to parse my words for
              the purposes of one-up-manship, you go for it. We all have our
              needs. :-)
               
              Let's face it. You can't provide objective proof of your points any
              better than I can. All you can do is say "Steiner says" but I don't
              place any more value on his psychic revelations than I do upon
              my own...nor should you.
               
              All we really do in essence is throw out our own experiences
              and if they fit with the experiences of others, fine.
              If they agree with Steiner's experiences, DOUBLE fine...
              But ultimately, all we really have to discuss is our own perspectives.
               
               
                  > Sorry.  Happy New Year. 
               
               
              Don't worry be happy.
               
                 
                  > A print-out of your Salamander is posted up at
                  > the changing shed of Tesuque Pueblo's sweat-lodge as of yesterday!
               
               
              What is this? Could it be that thou art proving a man of
              impeccable artistic tastes after all, Stephen? I may have to
              re-examine my initial impulses!
               
               
               
              BR
               
               
               
            • Joel Wendt
              Dear Br. Ron, Okay, you can say you aren t what your posts read as, and if you think that makes a difference, then little point in suggesting otherwise is
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 2, 2003
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                Dear Br. Ron,

                Okay, you can say you aren't what your posts read as, and if you think
                that makes a difference, then little point in suggesting otherwise is
                there? But if you sum up all your responses to me all you have done is
                make assertions that you aren't saying what you do say. Whose doing the
                political double talk? As to politics, this is an anthroposophy list,
                not a political list and those are two very different things.

                As to insisting I don't read well, then perhaps you don't write very
                well. Someone want to explain what Br. Ron means here in plain English,
                and why he isn't an isolationist?

                As to quoting Steiner on the ethereal, I don't think I could find
                anything to support your view, when of course you are the one insisting
                you know what is true here. I feel no need to prove to you you don't
                understand the ethereal at all, but you need to prove to me you know
                something about it, rather then assert it.

                One of Steiner's tasks was to lay the foundation for a true science of
                life, which means leading people to how to think about the ethereal so
                that they have real knowledge rather then vague mysticism, which is
                useless for bringing health to life processes.

                What are the Four Ethers? Where are the Ether boundaries (there are
                four - and they meet longitudinally) covering the earth? What is the
                source of the Ethereal Formative Forces? Where does the ethereal
                concentrate on the Plant? What is the relationship between the ethereal
                and projective geometry? Why is the ethereal body of the liver larger
                than the physical organ itself? Are you familiar with Wachschmits
                (sorry for the bad spelling folks) book on the Ethereal Formative Forces
                and the Cosmos? How about Adam's book on Physical and Ethereal Spaces,
                or his truly remarkable Space in the Light of Creation? Have you read
                Adam's and Whicher's The Plant Between the Sun and the Earth? What is
                the relationship between the Sun and the ethereal forces? What is
                negative space? What is the relationship between potentization and
                formative forces? Why does the BD farmer spray small amounts of mists
                over his fields? What is the purpose of the "broadcasting" device
                certain BD farmers now use? How does Margarethe Hauschka's Rhythmical
                Message influence the ethereal body of the human being? What is the
                threefold organism in mammals and man, and how does the ethereal
                influence this form-structure?

                Oh great expert on esoterics, please speak, your fan club is waiting.

                curiouser and curiouser said Alice,
                j.

                On Thu, 2003-01-02 at 16:12, Br. Ron wrote:
                >
                > Hark! Canst thou hear it? The sound of breaking wind
                > in yon far glen where the court hunts by moonlight,
                > .....for Joel hath Wendt and done it again.
                >
                >
                > > In your case, you say you aren't being isolationist, but the
                > > spirit of what you advocate is.
                >
                >
                > Really now?...Hold this envelope to thy bejeweled brow and
                > tell me, oh, Kar-nak! For surely thou hast deeper insights
                > into mine own intentions than I....
                >
                >
                > > The world is far too closely integrated in fact for your
                > > advice to work.
                >
                >
                > But thou hast already demonstrated that thou knowest
                > nothing as to the nature of said advice.
                >
                > I already clearly stated that I wasn't an isolationist but thou
                > hast inferred that I was not telling the truth... Avast!
                >
                >
                > > I can see the emotional sense of it (screw them let
                > > the swim in their own juices), but nations are not
                > > individual people....
                >
                >
                >
                > Joel...you are a real piece. You twist my meaning in
                > a most disingenuous way. If I didn't know better I would
                > almost think that you were a politician or something.
                >
                > Here is a snip from my last post on the subject
                >
                > "We have no business interfering where we aren't wanted.
                > But we have no business NOT interfering where we are
                > genuinely needed, either."
                >
                > Does that sound 'isolationist' to you?
                > A resounding "Nay!" I should proffer!
                >
                > I am convinced that you haven't even read a single thing
                > I have posted anyway. (which is OK...just don't pretend
                > that you have, lest thou appearest as but a Richard Nixon
                > wannabe)
                >
                >
                > > You said as follows: "On a personal level, the etheric matrix is our own
                > > private armor. On a national level, our borders are meant to define
                > > this function." The nature of the ethereal world has no correspondence
                > > to our national borders, which are clearly a convention of human
                > > beings.
                >
                >
                >
                > You are absolutely wrong about this and you better learn this
                > lesson well if you are going to survive the intense changes
                > at hand. I kid you not about this, my friend.
                >
                > "As above so below," remember?
                >
                > The etheric body is, among other things, an "electro-magnetic"
                > boundary which helps to preserve one's individualized integrity.
                > It has much the same function as the ozone layer of
                > the planet which filters out destructive cosmic rays.
                >
                > National boundaries are but larger analogs of the same thing.
                > Humans are not the only entities in the universe in need of protection.
                > Nations are entities too. So are molecules, cells, planets, solar systems
                > and galaxies.
                >
                > I admit that there is a rather large spiritual movement to deceive
                > the innocent into believing these divisions of consciousness
                > shouldn't really exist, but this much I guarantee....such a belief is
                > strictly Luciferic.
                >
                >
                >
                > >What you said above in reply again shows a lack of familiarity
                > > with anthroposophical teachings on the ethereal.
                >
                >
                >
                > Don't play the AP game with me, Joel.
                > I want some evidence where Rudolph Steiner
                > contradicts one thing I have said, here.
                >
                > C'mon, ante up!
                >
                > If you are going to play 'Anthroposophical expert'
                > you best put your research where your mouth is.
                >
                > Otherwise back off... or people will more than likely confuse
                > you with Soupy Sales than a serious presidential candidate.
                >
                >
                >
                > > What has my political activity to do with this discussion, except to
                > > slide off the actual facts under consideration and introduce a red
                > > herring?
                >
                >
                >
                > I simply mention it because your posts sound like a typical
                > knee-jerk utopian politician with a typical 'border dissolving'
                > solution to every problem...(when at this time at least, it is the
                > exact opposite that is needed)
                >
                > All I have been able to glean from your 'solutions' are
                > political delusions of grandeur.
                >
                > C'mon Buddy....idealism is fine but let's get real, here.
                > You appear to be so far out in 'La La Land' that you even
                > make Barbara Streisand look like a Supreme Court Justice.
                >
                >
                > > > When you get these basics down get back with me and I will reconsider
                > > > taking your political ambitions and your posts a bit more seriously.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Until then.... (HONK :-)
                >
                >
                > > Yes, think of this as a joke. Don't take ideas seriously, or the modern
                > > world and all its problems seriously, or the future of the Republic
                > > seriously.
                >
                >
                > Oh, I take real ideas concerning our national and global well being
                > VERY seriously. But so far, I find yours to generate about the same
                > response in me as a rubber chicken in the Crock-pot.
                >
                >
                >
                > BR
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Joel Wendt
                ... I set this one aside, because I wanted to keep separate discussions of anthroposophy and of politics. As you probably don t know, Steiner stated at the
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 2, 2003
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                  On Thu, 2003-01-02 at 16:12, Br. Ron wrote:

                  >
                  > Oh, I take real ideas concerning our national and global well being
                  > VERY seriously. But so far, I find yours to generate about the same
                  > response in me as a rubber chicken in the Crock-pot.
                  >

                  I set this one aside, because I wanted to keep separate discussions of
                  anthroposophy and of politics. As you probably don't know, Steiner
                  stated at the Christmas Conference that "politics was not the mission of
                  the anthroposophical movement". If you would like to understand why
                  this is so, you might read the three lectures published under the title:
                  "The Inner Aspect of the Social Question", which provides the basis for
                  Steiner's admonition.

                  This doesn't mean there aren't people with political "missions", but
                  what that is about and why is a whole other question.

                  What I would like is for you to demonstrate that you know anything about
                  my "politics". Again, you make assertions about my ideas, and indulge
                  in name calling, but that is neither rational or instructive - it is
                  just empty talk.

                  What is the main impulse of my political work? And, why is it defective
                  in any way?

                  yours for a renewal of the Republic,
                  joel
                • Br. Ron
                  (Joel) ... Perhaps so but you certainly react to the political topics as if it were... ... Behold! I am told it really is possible to turn lead into crystal so
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 2, 2003
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                    (Joel)
                        > As to politics, this is an anthroposophy list,
                        > not a political list and those are two very different things.


                    Perhaps so but you certainly react to the political
                    topics as if it were...
                     
                     
                        > As to insisting I don't read well, then perhaps you don't write very
                        > well.  Someone want to explain what Br. Ron means here in plain English,
                        > and why he isn't an isolationist?
                     
                     
                    Behold! I am told it really is possible to turn lead into crystal
                    so is the core of my post for the 3rd time:

                    I said, "We have no business interfering where we aren't wanted.
                    But we have no business NOT interfering where we are
                    genuinely needed, either."

                    This is pretty plain, aint it?  What part of this are you having
                    trouble with? Where is the isolationism in these words?
                     
                    Joel, grab your dictionary and look up the word 'sophomoric'
                    and you just may find your picture there.
                     
                    I could just as easily have asked "Will someone explain to me in
                    plain English if Joel has quit beating his wife, yet" but that
                    would be equally as sophomoric.
                     
                     
                        > As to quoting Steiner on the ethereal, I don't think I could find
                        > anything to support your view, when of course you are the one insisting
                        > you know what is true here.  I feel no need to prove to you you don't
                        > understand the ethereal at all, but you need to prove to me you know
                        > something about it, rather then assert it.
                     
                     
                    You challenged my position. The burden of proof is therefore
                    yours. But of course we both know you can't so I shall allow
                    you to gracefully bow out of this embarrassing fax pax.
                     

                        > One of Steiner's tasks was to lay the foundation for a true science of
                        > life, which means leading people to how to think about the ethereal so
                        > that they have real knowledge rather then vague mysticism, which is
                        > useless for bringing health to life processes.
                     
                     
                    Have you ever been to a Cistercian monastery? These 'mystics
                    live well into their 90s and many are over 100. These men
                    are amongst the healthiest humanity has to offer. A mystical life
                    of devotion and prayer DOES bring health to the life processes.
                    But you would have to experience what I'm talking about, not
                    just read about it.
                     
                     
                        > What are the Four Ethers?  Where are the Ether boundaries (there are
                        > four - and they meet longitudinally) covering the earth?  What is the
                        > source of the Ethereal Formative Forces?  Where does the ethereal
                        > concentrate on the Plant?  What is the relationship between the ethereal
                        > and projective geometry? Why is the ethereal body of the liver larger
                       
                    > than the physical organ itself?  Are you familiar with
                    Wachschmits
                        > (sorry for the bad spelling folks) book on the Ethereal Formative Forces
                        > and the Cosmos?  How about Adam's book on Physical and Ethereal Spaces,
                        > or his truly remarkable Space in the Light of Creation?  Have you read
                        > Adam's and Whicher's The Plant Between the Sun and the Earth?  What is
                       
                    > the relationship between the Sun and the ethereal forces?  What
                    is
                        > negative space?  What is the relationship between potentization and
                        > formative forces?  Why does the BD farmer spray small amounts of mists
                        > over his fields?  What is the purpose of the "broadcasting" device
                        > certain BD farmers now use?  How does Margarethe Hauschka's Rhythmical
                        > Message influence the ethereal body of the human being?  What is the
                       
                    > threefold organism in mammals and man, and how does the
                    ethereal
                        > influence this form-structure? Oh great expert on esoterics, please
                        > speak, your fan club is waiting.
                     
                     
                    Yaaaawwwwn...(snort) Huh?...Oh!...excuse me...uh, where were we?
                     
                    Oh yeah, actually, as I was saying, I have great compassion for 
                    your predicament.
                     
                    It's like the poor guy who spent his whole life reading about
                    how to play the piano. Then when his recital debut finally arrived,
                    all he could do is sit there and explain to the audience how pianos
                    are played.
                     
                    I am starting to see a genuine pathology amongst many
                    self proclaimed Anthroposophists...and that is this:
                     
                    Not a one of them has ever had an original thought!
                     
                    ..... they sure are good at aping Steiner, though.
                     
                    This of course is the very antithesis of what RS himself wanted
                    for his students, isn't it?  
                     
                     
                    Oh oh!..."Houston...we have a problem"......(back to the
                    instruction manual).
                     
                     
                     
                     
                    BR
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                  • Br. Ron
                    ... From: Joel Wendt ... Joel...talk to me...please...if there is a turd on the kitchen table you don t need to quote Steiner on why it
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 3, 2003
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Joel Wendt" <hermit@...>
                       
                          > I set this one aside, because I wanted to keep separate discussions of
                          > anthroposophy and of politics.  As you probably don't know, Steiner
                          > stated at the Christmas Conference that "politics was not the mission of
                          > the anthroposophical movement".  If you would like to understand why
                          > this is so, you might read the three lectures published under the title:
                          > "The Inner Aspect of the Social Question", which provides the basis for
                          > Steiner's admonition.
                       
                       
                      Joel...talk to me...please...if there is a turd on the kitchen table
                      you don't need to quote Steiner on why it doesn't belong there.
                      If you want to keep politics separate from our discussions then
                      just do it....yourself...without Steiner...You can do it on your
                      own, Joel......I know you can! 
                       
                       
                          > This doesn't mean there aren't people with political "missions", but
                          > what that is about and why is a whole other question.
                       
                       
                      OK..then let's move on..I'm fine with that.

                       
                          > What I would like is for you to demonstrate that you know anything about
                          > my "politics".  Again, you make assertions about my ideas, and indulge
                          > in name calling, but that is neither rational or instructive - it is
                          > just empty talk.
                       
                       
                      Oh...so you DO want to talk about politics. As you wish.
                      The truth is, I know nothing about your politics, Joel except what

                       
                          > What is the main impulse of my political work?  And, why is it defective
                          > in any way?
                       
                       
                      I never said it was. In fact, I rather think you have some viable political
                      qualities. (You do show a tad of spunk and perseverance)
                       
                      I probably would even go so far as to say that you might even
                      make a better president than many we have had, so far. 
                       
                      I am not opposed to you Joel. In fact, we probably have more in
                      common than you would like to admit.
                       
                      We both liked to hang out in Montana,...we both smoked a lot
                      of dope in the 70s.....We both have egos the size of a Buick.
                       
                      But until you remove your head from the Southern orifice of that
                      North bound mule and come down from that wearisome, overcrowded 
                      Anthroposophical ivory tower of pseudo-intellectual superiority,
                      you won't even make it to the Powder Puff Derby.
                       
                      There is hope, however...We'll start by leaning you up against a tree
                      and hosing you off...then a shave, a haircut and a new suit...
                       
                      Then we can get you a bunch of books on how to kiss babies, etc.
                       
                       
                       
                      BR
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                    • Br. Ron
                      ... As an Abbot, I can imagine his heart was surely broken. ... Thanks for your input, Andrea. While these things were seldom an issue in my monastery I do
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 3, 2003
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                                >>These 'mystics live well into their 90s and many are over 100. 
                               >>are amongst the healthiest humanity has to offer. A mystical life
                                >>of devotion and prayer DOES bring health to the life processes.

                            >Excuse me in advance Br.Ron if I jump in in your duel with Joel
                            >but since I live in a country full of Cistercian and Benedectine
                            >monasteries i have the duty to give you (and the list) the other
                            >side of the coin.

                            >A while ago i spent a time in Uliveto's Monte Maggiore Monastery in Toscana -
                            >(I presently use to spend some weekend in the S.Benedetto Monastery
                            > near Subiaco) and the Abate ("Commander in Chief") opened his heart
                            > and told me about, with deep grief- of the decadence of the institutions
                            > he had to lead.
                         
                         
                        As an Abbot, I can imagine his heart was surely broken.
                         

                           
                        >Homosexuality,Alcoholism, Lack of Religious life, Politicism : those are the
                            >monsters that, as he stated, show presently the decadence of the traditional
                            >spiritual life and the hard times that is now living such a once powerful
                            >religious brotherood here in Italy.
                         
                         
                        Thanks for your input, Andrea.
                         
                        While these things were seldom an issue in my monastery
                        I do know they exist in some others. Not only the Church,
                        but institutionalism itself is being purged these days.
                         
                        Monks are like Anthroposophists. There are good ones and bad ones.
                         
                        I wasn't however promoting monasteries as a solution to the world's ills
                        but simply making the point that a devout life of mystical prayer is
                        indeed a healthy one, if earnestly adhered to. (in contradistinction to
                        Joel's 'true believer' assertion that only AP was health producing while
                        mystical devotion was not)
                         
                         
                        LVX
                         
                         
                        BR
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                      • Joel Wendt
                        ... No, I don t want to talk about politics on an anthroposophy list. On an anthroposophy list I want to talk about spiritual science. As far as ivory towers
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 3, 2003
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                          On Fri, 2003-01-03 at 03:29, Br. Ron wrote:

                          >
                          > Oh...so you DO want to talk about politics. As you wish.
                          > The truth is, I know nothing about your politics, Joel except what
                          > I read at: http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/gmg7a.html

                          No, I don't want to talk about politics on an anthroposophy list. On an
                          anthroposophy list I want to talk about spiritual science. As far as
                          ivory towers go, the only reason it looks to you like I am on one is
                          because you keep insisting you know something about anthroposophy when
                          clearly you know very little.

                          I don't think you need to know anything about it by the way, that's a
                          choice one get to make. But when you speak of it, and misrepresent it,
                          on an anthroposophy list, then don't get your shorts in a knot if
                          someone who can see how full of it you are steps on your preconceptions
                          and horse pucky.

                          Now if I was to try to run music stuff past you, you'd see in a moment I
                          was faking it. So when you fake it about anthroposophy, well, you
                          deserve what you get.

                          Glad to know what you think about my politics given what little you
                          know. There's a campaign website (http://ipwebdev.com/campaign), and on
                          those pages an e-mail link so if you want to go deeper into it (yea we
                          are probably a lot of like, that's why we're both assholes), check it
                          out and we can be political off the list.

                          But, when you sing wrong notes, with some horrible disharmonies, about
                          anthroposophy, I am going throw some harsh words at you, so wear your
                          battle armor, ok?

                          warm regards,
                          joel
                        • Br. Ron
                          From: Joel Wendt ... As you wish ... Whatchoo talkin bout? (he sez in his best Gary Coleman) I never claimed to know anything bout
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 3, 2003
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                            From: "Joel Wendt" <hermit@...>
                             
                                > > Oh...so you DO want to talk about politics. As you wish.
                                > > The truth is, I know nothing about your politics, Joel except what
                                >
                            > I read at:
                            face=Arial size=2>http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/gmg7a.html
                               >
                                > No, I don't want to talk about politics on an anthroposophy list. 
                             
                             
                            As you wish
                             
                             
                                >  But when you speak of it, and misrepresent it,
                                > on an anthroposophy list, then don't get your shorts in a knot if
                                > someone who can see how full of it you are steps on your preconceptions
                                > and horse pucky.>
                                > Now if I was to try to run music stuff past you, you'd see in a moment I
                                > was faking it.  So when you fake it about anthroposophy, well, you
                                > deserve what you get.
                             
                             
                            Whatchoo talkin bout? (he sez in his best Gary Coleman)
                            I never claimed to know anything 'bout Anthroposophy. 
                            Hell, I haven't even mastered wheelbarrows yet
                            (machinery intimidates me)
                             
                            No, I never claimed to be an Anthroposophist, Joel.
                            In fact I have made it quite clear several times that I don't
                            even like Anthroposophists.
                             
                            (I do love much of what Rudolph Steiner has written, however)
                             
                             
                                > Glad to know what you think about my politics given what little you
                                > know.  There's a campaign website (
                            http://ipwebdev.com/campaign), and on
                                > those pages an e-mail link so if you want to go deeper into it
                             
                             
                            Well whadda ya think about me being your campaign manager?
                            I have been being tutored by the ghost of PT Barnum, I'll bet
                            together we could chew up a few mean cigars. Maybe we could
                            even get Bradford to be your speech writer.
                             
                             
                                >yea we are probably a lot of like, that's why we're both assholes
                             
                             
                            Speaking of that, did you know I'm having a colostomy on Tuesday?
                            Shucks, if you don't want to discuss politics, maybe you'd rather
                            look into......
                             
                             
                                > But, when you sing wrong notes, with some horrible
                                > disharmonies, about anthroposophy, I am going throw some
                                > harsh words at you, so wear your battle armor, ok?
                             
                             
                            Sure...I got my leathers on and my weapon is unsheathed,
                            erect and ready for the charge (ahem, forgive me Sigmund)
                             
                            Anyway, before we retire to the coliseum, I need to know
                            what Anthroposophical misrepresentation I am charged with.
                             
                            Betcha can't do it...seeing as how I never claimed to represent
                            AP in the first place....but that's OK I just saw Russell Crowe in
                            The Gladiator for the 3rd time and I am PUMPED!
                             
                             
                            (See attachment)
                             
                             
                            Et tu, Commodious? Prepare to taste my metal!
                             
                            (Commodious?...Sheesh I just can't get away from
                            this potty mouth, today)
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                            BR
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                          • Br. Ron
                            ... GREAT!!!!!!!! THIS IS THE DEEPEST TRUTH I HAVE EVER EXPERIENCED IN THE CYBERWORLD111 Sincerely yours, Mr.Spaghetti Hey watch it, Mr. Spaghetti. Yer
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 4, 2003
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                                  >yea we are probably a lot of like, that's why we're both assholes
                               
                              GREAT!!!!!!!!
                               THIS IS THE DEEPEST TRUTH I HAVE  EVER EXPERIENCED IN THE CYBERWORLD111
                               
                              Sincerely yours,
                              Mr.Spaghetti 
                               
                              Hey watch it, Mr. Spaghetti.
                              Yer gettin' kinda saucy there.
                               
                              Tony Soprano is off until next season
                              but I have his private number and he owes me a favor.
                               
                               
                              Brotherri Ronacci
                               
                               
                               
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