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Re: [anthroposophy]Intelligence and testing

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  • Pacbay
    ... and try hard to keep those bloodlines pure but are so terrified of recognizing the same principles within the human species? .... the northern races have
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 2, 2002
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      rlloyd@... writes:
      >>Why is it we can recognize the unique qualities of certain breeds of animals

      and try hard to keep those bloodlines pure but are so terrified of recognizing
      the same principles within the human species?
      ....
      the northern races have greater Stanford-Binet
      ratings than do the darker races (the number of Mensa members decreases
      proportionately to the population the closer we get to the equator)
      But the lighter races lack the visceral and rhythmic qualities of their
      darker counterparts.
      Hey, don't kill me...I'm just the messenger.

      *******So was Charles Murray a few years ago when he published "The Bell Curve", one chapter of which noted what any statistician knows, that different groups of people show characteristic higher and lower scores on intelligence tests. But it was a politically incorrect thing to talk about publicly, and he paid dearly for doing so.
      Dr. Starman
       
       
      Just when I thought some objectivity was entering this loaded discussion, this comes up.  IQ tests have been extensively studied (see below) and it is concluded that cultural and social factors can be determining factors in measuring intelligence (not "race" or ethnicity). For example, corrections have been introduced to compensate for those living in a family learning environment where certain conventional verbal and language skills are not developed or learned. In addition there are other cultural factors that may influence ratings.  This is a cognitive issue not a ethnic or genetic one.  
       
      These tests often do not measure spacial, artistic, movement skills,  imaginative, creative, or social intelligence - all of which are far more important than pure intellectual skills like reading, math and memorization. I doubt strongly if a 6 grade Waldorf student would produce high marks on a standard test.
       
      In addition, when an orphan or foster care child is raised in appropriate socio-economic conditions (for basic learning skills),  differences among the children of mixed ethnic origins do not produce differences in results. And it is clear that graduates from all ethnic groups graduate from Harvard and Oxford.
       
       If we are talking about "soul qualities", we are need to clearly define and characterize what these are and how they manifest.
      In addition, its is clear that as inner soul freedom develops, subtle racial and ethnic influences become transformed or  are not important in determining personality.
      As a good source, I would refer you to the following:
       
      Jeff
       
       
      Psychological Testing : History, Principles, and Applications 3RD
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      Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 5:00 AM
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] 'racist' quotes?

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    • Sören Groth
      ... subtle racial and ethnic influences become transformed or are not important in determining personality. Exactly !!! I feel I m incarnated in a special
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 2, 2002
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        --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Pacbay" <pacbay@a...> wrote:

        > If we are talking about "soul qualities", we are need to clearly
        >define and characterize what these are and how they manifest.
        > In addition, its is clear that as inner soul freedom develops,
        subtle >racial and ethnic influences become transformed or are not
        important >in determining personality.

        Exactly !!! I feel I'm incarnated in a special situation, not to be
        determined by it, but because it offers special qualities.. So when I
        described the existence of a complex I called "A Eurocenthric
        Patriarchal Capitalist Culture of Violence" it to me was a statement
        without prejudices... simply a personal fact, this is the situation
        I'm raised into as a personality... and my road to become a
        cosmopolitan, is neither to defend this personality, nor reject it...
        but trancend it, and in order to do that I must also know it.. I can't
        just ignore it.
        Now most other people in the world due to historical reasons is
        grouped in some comparision, a scale of measurement ranked agaisnt the
        "highest" quality, the definition of free individuality, a normality,
        an obejctive "human" image, based on the white male ... The approach
        of "grouping" is not transcending either.... Only to develop free
        individuality, integrating the variety of qualities that each and one
        of us intuitatively sense is our individual path to seek christ ...
        This is a inner sincerity, the inner religiosity, rather than outer
        confession... Christianity in the future is the ones seeking christ in
        their heart and serving Micha-el with deeds, not the ones confessing
        with their mouth.. Confessing Christians may be willing servants of
        both Lucifer, Ahriman and Asuras, while shamans, factoryworkers,
        peasants, Financial Managers, individuals no matter where and no
        matter what outer groupdefinition they seem to have, in their heart is
        seeking the tuly human (=Christ) and in their deeds by intuition work
        from the christimpulse ....

        Well so from being a personality formed by "an eurocenthric
        patriarchal capitalist culture of violence" I hope to transcend into
        an individuality expressing a "cosmopolitan masculine economical
        culture of lovemaking" ... the latter meaning creativity, deeds from
        love.. "love for the sake"
        This has nothing to do with self-hate or self-denial, on the contrary,
        on the contrary :-)

        Well and glad to see how this issue, now in several posts being
        claimed to be impossible to discuss, without the "liberal" fraction
        turning to "political correctness" by several of the cosmopolitans
        have been taken serious, discussed openly, while our "silenced"
        victims, so far have contributed with a serie of posts implyiing they
        will not be allowed to discuss the issue, and then when we
        "cosmopolitans" with no prejudices discuss the whole complex issue,
        with thoroughness and clear scientific distinction... dare to do so,
        as we have clean conscience... there are others that think this is
        better discussed privately and that they will be harasssed - "white
        supremacy victimisation"... What a joke !!!
        I'd say these things shall most certainly NOT be discussed privately,
        where there's no testing of validity in claims, these issues must be
        discussed openly... and the ignorance of those who actually prefer to
        keep their prejudices privately be dragged out in the open and be
        exposed in stead of silenced by "political correctness"

        Sören
      • Sören Groth
        ... Which by the way dear Br. Ron answers your question about Will to Death and Will to Life... The Will to Life as a free individuality aslo includes a
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 2, 2002
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          --- In anthroposophy@y..., Sören Groth <sgroth@b...> wrote:

          > Well so from being a personality formed by "an eurocenthric
          > patriarchal capitalist culture of violence" I hope to transcend into
          > an individuality expressing a "cosmopolitan masculine economical
          > culture of lovemaking" ... the latter meaning creativity, deeds from
          > love.. "love for the sake"
          > This has nothing to do with self-hate or self-denial, on the >contrary,
          > on the contrary :-)

          Which by the way dear Br. Ron answers your question about Will to
          Death and Will to Life... The Will to Life as a free individuality
          aslo includes a certain degree of Will to Death of personality (per
          sona = through the mask) .. Which is no loss of consciosness or I - on
          the contrary.
          As a scorpio, the mystery of life and death, religion and eros is my
          field of research :-)

          And all over personalities meet this challenge.. of course there's
          also such a thing as a "arabcenthric patriarchal feodalist culture of
          violence" or an "afrocenthric matriarchal village culture of
          subordination to lazy males" .. all over we have cultural complexes
          frorming personality, which can be transcended into cosmopolitan
          individuality, where the different cultures add different colourings
          and qualities .. and everywhere I meet people who have transformed...
          I could do buisness, "win-win" - an act of "love for the sake" with
          Cecile in Burkina Faso, who have transcended into an individuality of
          "cosmopolitan female cooperative culture of lovemaking" !!!!!

          Sören
        • Br. Ron
          (Soren) ... This is true for all viable individuals, but not all individuals are viable. This knowledge doesn t have any practical value when dealing with
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 2, 2002
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                (Soren)
                >Which by the way dear Br. Ron answers your question about Will to
                >Death and Will to Life... The Will to Life as a free individuality
               
            >also includes a certain degree of Will to Death of personality
            (per
                >sona = through the mask) .. Which is no loss of consciosness or I - on
                >the contrary.
                  >As a scorpio, the mystery of life and death, religion and eros is my
                >field of research :-)
             
            This is true for all 'viable' individuals, but not all individuals are viable.
             
            This knowledge doesn't have any practical value when dealing with
            what Jesus called  "the sons of perdition."
             
            For instance, when the likes of Mullah Omar say:
             
            "You Christians can never prevail because your primary goal is Life
            while ours, as good Muslims, is Death"
             
            Personally, I can find nothing more practical than helping him
            and other like minded fellows attain their goal, can you?
             
             
            BR
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             

             
          • Sören Groth
            ... Criminals are criminals, and murderers are murderers, no matter what motives they claim, and yes some I agree must face the consequences of their actions
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 2, 2002
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              --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Br. Ron" <rlloyd@d...> wrote:
              > (Soren)

              > For instance, when the likes of Mullah Omar say:
              >
              > "You Christians can never prevail because your primary goal is Life
              > while ours, as good Muslims, is Death"
              >
              > Personally, I can find nothing more practical than helping him
              > and other like minded fellows attain their goal, can you?

              Criminals are criminals, and murderers are murderers, no matter what
              motives they claim, and yes some I agree must face the consequences of
              their actions .. their actions, they shall be deemed byt heir deeds,
              not their motives.
              So a muslim terrorist, a christian terrorist or a jewish terrorist, I
              care about the fact terrrorist, a criminal act - just as a christian
              wifebeater is an equally big a**hole as an arabic wifebeater.

              Well and yes, sometimes the will to life, also ask the courage of
              will to death... I have said it before I'm not pacifist, and some use
              of force as the situation demands may be necessary - which I however
              prefer is expressed with sincerity rather than cheering proudness of
              killingcapacity in the mighty military strength and admiration of the
              potent leadership. Some people need a get a life ...

              Hehe by the way I love America, especially my sweet american
              girlfriend , I met through this list :-)
            • Br. Ron
              From: Sören Groth (BR) ... (Soren) ... The difference is that I don t find the same moral equivalence between Islamic and Christian
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 2, 2002
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                From: "Sören Groth" <sgroth@...>
                 
                        (BR)
                        > > For instance, when the likes of Mullah Omar say:
                 
                        > > "You Christians can never prevail because your primary goal is Life
                        > > while ours, as good Muslims, is Death"
                 
                      (Soren)
                    >  So a muslim terrorist, a christian terrorist or a jewish terrorist, I
                   
                > care about the fact terrrorist, a criminal act - just as a
                christian
                    > wifebeater is an equally big a**hole as an arabic wifebeater.
                The difference is that I don't find the same moral equivalence  
                between Islamic and Christian systems that you seem to have.
                 
                How could anyone NOT see what's going on here?
                 
                    1. Out of 31 wars currently raging around the world 29 involve Muslims
                     that have bloodied the borders in 65 different countries!

                    2. In the past 5 years, out Muslims have been involved in 91 percent
                    of all terrorist acts, globally.

                    3. .....and 99 percent of all suicide bombings.
                 
                Pro Life?....Hardly!
                 
                Christianity and Islam are not only diametrically opposed
                but they are irreconcilable, IMO.
                 
                I have no doubt that future events will make this apparent.
                 
                (Sacred geometry bears me out on this fact too, but that
                may be better discussed off list or on a venue that is into that
                sort of thing....maybe it would be OK...I just have never
                had much response to it here except from you.
                Don't know why. One sacred symbol is worth 100,000 words.
                Only music is better for revealing hidden spiritual verities)
                 
                RS said, 'Christianity is a Mystical Fact,' and has made it pretty plain
                that Islam is a horse of a different color. It doesn't even recognize
                the Event at Golgotha as anything but an afterthought...
                 
                No, the two systems simply are not equal
                    > I have said it before I'm not pacifist, and some use
                    > of force as the situation demands may be necessary - which I however
                    > prefer is expressed with sincerity rather than cheering proudness of
                   
                > killingcapacity in the mighty military strength and admiration of
                the
                    > potent leadership. Some people need a get a life ...
                    >
                    > Hehe by the way I love America, especially my sweet american
                    > girlfriend , I met through this list :-)  
                 
                Congratulations! "...Wish they all could be California girls..." 
                 
                But to conclude, the issue isn't political or nationalistic.
                It is psycho/spiritual.
                One way is of the Solar-Christ (Life affirming) and the other is 
                Anti-Christ (Death Affirming.)  Continue studying that Koran.
                Sooner or later the convoluted energy patterns may become
                as apparent to you as they have become to me.
                 
                       It's a matter of:
                 
                 _____                   *
                I           I                  /\
                I           I    vs        /     \
                I_____I              /        \
                                         /           \
                                        /______\
                 
                 
                 
                 
                BR
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
              • Sören Groth
                ... terrorist, I ... christian ... That s too simple... The development of some civilisation advances, such as individual humna rights (in threefolding we tend
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 2, 2002
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                  --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Br. Ron" <rlloyd@d...> wrote:
                  > From: "Sören Groth" <sgroth@b...>

                  > (Soren)
                  > > So a muslim terrorist, a christian terrorist or a jewish
                  terrorist, I
                  > > care about the fact terrrorist, a criminal act - just as a
                  christian
                  > > wifebeater is an equally big a**hole as an arabic wifebeater.
                  >
                  > The difference is that I don't find the same moral equivalence
                  > between Islamic and Christian systems that you seem to have.

                  That's too simple... The development of some civilisation advances,
                  such as individual humna rights (in threefolding we tend to see
                  "rights" as individual equal rights, not group rights) was dependant
                  on an christian western psycho/spiritual environment (good
                  distinction, from political/national).. but before being a christian
                  or a muslim or whatever, people tend to be just human beings, the
                  cultural context never manage to become a totality - some individuals
                  can be totally absorbed by the "system", but most still have life ..
                  there's a life after birth, and a death after life, as there's life
                  after death and death after birth ...
                  To beg for a clash of civilisations is to adress the complexity of
                  systems, instead of the "deeds" ... I'm cultural imperialist on
                  individual human rights, and there's good muslims in my eyes, that
                  advocate human rights (though they in the mullahs eyes then is bad
                  moslems), and those I can't say "a good moslem is a dead moslem"
                  Well, and still reading the Koran, I see quite some points for a
                  moslem to work from serving the christ-impulse - Just like the mosaic
                  law has been moderated and replaced by secular justice - so can the
                  sharia. And the wifebeatings, stonings aso is better adressed for
                  being inhuman treatment, than being "islam" - thus supporting humanist
                  forces within islam, rather than digging trenches

                  > But to conclude, the issue isn't political or nationalistic.
                  > It is psycho/spiritual.

                  Good, on this level we agree....
                • Br. Ron
                  At the risk of revisiting the hornets nest, I will repost this Qabalists view BR From the Keys of Enoch -JJ Hurtak THE ANTI-UNIVERSE IS COMPOSED OF STAR FIELD
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 2, 2002
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                    At the risk of revisiting the hornets nest, I will repost this Qabalists view

                     

                    BR

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                    From the Keys of Enoch

                    -JJ Hurtak

                     

                     

                    THE ANTI-UNIVERSE IS COMPOSED OF STAR FIELD ENER­GIES REVEALED ON THE BLACK CUBE IN MECCA WHICH SHOWS THE FUNCTION AND DESTRUCTION OF THREE-DIMENSIONAL UNIVERSES.

                     

                    1 Just as our living universe has a pyramid of light as the central matrix for star evolution between the universes of intelligence, so also the anti-universe has its matrix of dark cubic space which is the violation of the Living Light exem­plified in the Kabba, the Black Cube in Mecca……

                     

                    2 The ninth key of Enoch deals with the salvation and destruction of star universes within star ener­gies trapped within a cubic func­tion of darkness.

                     

                    3 And this key was unveiled in the year 1973 of the Earth's con­sciousness time zone by the King Feisal of Saudi Arabia, who gathered at Mecca a host of two million worshippers chanting "liberate Jerusalem." A news dispatch from Beirut told that he washed his hands, put on seamless garments, and approached the Kabba. (This is the Black Stone that legend

                    says was once white,  when Adam brought it out of Eden, but had gathered darkness by the corruption of man’s sins)  ,

                     

                    4 So we see in the Kabba, the key geometries of the anti-power of the anti-Christos, and the anti-Zohar; we see this even in the very language of the Islamic schol­ars and leaders who were gathered at the Kabba to bow down to the Black Stone as they prepared to "liberate Jerusalem," which is known to be the place of the com­ing "Pyramid Capstone of Light."

                     

                    5 Within this key the positive universe and the anti-universe come together through the mathematics of Light; on one hand through the Pleiades, Orion, and Jerusalem; on the other hand through alpha Draconis, omega Draconis, and Mecca.

                     

                    6 And it reveals the nations engaged in physical destruction en­tropy, war and violence due to the worshipping and bowing down to closed negative star energies. (These are in opposition to) the nations of Love and Light which understand and exhalt the pyramid of light which is the sign ofor continuity in the image of higher illuminaries.

                  • Br. Ron
                    From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI ... When I refer to Christian I mean any who have consciously allowed (or more accurately are allowing) their molocules to be
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 3, 2002
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                          >>Christianity and Islam are not only diametrically opposed
                          >>but they are irreconcilable, IMO.
                       
                       
                          >Dearest listmates,
                          >just a little small remark-  I find a little puzzling in topics like
                          >this the use of the word "Christianity" .  Which one ?
                       
                      When I refer to "Christian" I mean any who have consciously allowed
                      (or more accurately are allowing) their molocules to be 'aligned' by
                      The Light...the Solar Logos...the Sun of God (as opposed to
                      those who prefer to align to the shadows dancing in It's wake)
                       
                      In my mind, 'Christians' can range from those young souls who
                      are just awakening to the "saving grace of Jesus" to those initiates
                      like CRC, Goethe, Bulwer and Steiner and on up to Michaelic
                      rays of Metatron Himself.
                       
                      Love
                       
                      BR
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       


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                    • Joel Wendt
                      ... Dear Brother Ron, The problem with abstract thinking (isolating certain factors as if they were the essential cause producing the presumed effect) ought to
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 3, 2002
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                        >
                        > 1. Out of 31 wars currently raging around the world 29 involve Muslims
                        > that have bloodied the borders in 65 different countries!
                        >
                        > 2. In the past 5 years, out Muslims have been involved in 91 percent
                        > of all terrorist acts, globally.
                        >
                        > 3. .....and 99 percent of all suicide bombings.
                        >
                        > Pro Life?....Hardly!
                        >

                        Dear Brother Ron,

                        The problem with abstract thinking (isolating certain factors as if
                        they were the essential cause producing the presumed effect) ought to be
                        clear to any genuine spiritual scientist (this list is called
                        anthroposophy is it not?).

                        Since you and some others don't seem to get it, let me suggest with
                        regard to the above abstractions....

                        Clearly many Islamic Cultures can be described as "retarded" if
                        compared to Western Culture. But that only works if one assumes that
                        Western Culture represents some kind of ideal by which other cultures
                        can be measured (this "measuring" or comparative thinking is itself
                        flawed by the way).

                        It would be much more accurate to recognize that most Islamic Cultures
                        are Third World cultures, and therefore as is normal for such cultures,
                        they are dominated by a Western Hegemony, that appropriates their (the
                        Islamic People's) assets (agricultural wealth etc.) for the benefit of
                        this Hegemony. There are exceptions of course, but most of the violence
                        in these Islamic Cultures are David vs. Goliath efforts, by those who
                        refuse any longer to have the necks under the boot of Western economic
                        imperialism.

                        Most of this information is of course routinely eliminated from Western
                        media sources. The best way to understand it, is to conceptually
                        reverse the situation, and ask whether Americans would tolerate, without
                        extreme forms of violence, the same abuses.

                        What you are abstracting into some kind of Culture of Death bullshit,
                        most Muslims would deny as the center of their religion. You are
                        confusing what is essentially revolutionary anti-hegemony political
                        reactions with some kind of Ahrimanic activity, without you being able
                        to say that you "know" this through your own spiritual research.

                        You may "think" it, but I don't find any evidence that this thinking
                        contains the will-in-thinking activity that makes something
                        anthroposophical.

                        Ahriman, as anyone paying real attention would know, is actually
                        working through the surface phenomena of the West, and lives most
                        strongly in those impulses which encourage a fear reaction to modern
                        terrorist conditions. The Bush administration, in that it leads us by
                        fear is one of the most Ahrimanic impulses active today. It completely
                        denies a true Christian approach to these problems, which would be to
                        encourage people to see past their initial fear reactions, to find a
                        deeper heart (moral and courageous) sensitivity in their activities in
                        response to terrorism.

                        Terrorism is actually a gift to the ongoing Rite of Passage (connected
                        to the present and ongoing metamorphosis of civilization) in that it
                        forces this moral crisis of choice (live in fear, or find a deeper level
                        of response). Until we learn to see that Evil always is in service of
                        the Good, we will never find our way through the symptoms to the reality
                        of modern times.

                        Most of the thinking in the various quoted materials that have been
                        posted lately to this list suffer from the general inadequacy common
                        today in that it is basically the quantitative cause and effect abstract
                        thinking that is created by our modern education that is permiated by an
                        adherence to materialistic science (the real Ahrimanic Deception).

                        If we want knowledge, we have to overcome this habit of thought in our
                        own minds, otherwise our perceptions of the social - political world
                        will be illusory.
                      • Br. Ron
                        ... Does Anthroposophy include practicing the denial of the obvious? Couching simple things in scientific terms does not change their core meaning. A turd
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 3, 2002
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                              >
                          >     1. Out of 31 wars currently raging around the world
                          29 involve Muslims
                              >
                          >       that have bloodied the borders in 65
                          different countries!
                              > >
                              >
                          >     2. In the past 5 years, out Muslims have been
                          involved in 91 percent
                              > >     of all terrorist acts, globally.
                              > >
                              > >     3. .....and 99 percent of all suicide bombings.
                              > >
                             
                          > > Pro Life?....Hardly!
                              > >
                              >
                              > Dear Brother Ron,
                              >
                              > The problem with abstract thinking (isolating certain factors as if
                              > they were the essential cause producing the presumed effect) ought to be
                              > clear to any genuine spiritual scientist (this list is called
                              > anthroposophy is it not?).
                           
                           
                          Does Anthroposophy include practicing the denial of the obvious?
                          Couching simple things in 'scientific' terms does not change their
                          core meaning. "A turd by any other name is still a turd."
                           

                              > Since you and some others don't seem to get it, let me suggest with
                              > regard to the above abstractions....
                           
                           
                          Oh,  I 'get it'...I just choose not to 'keep' it for very long.
                          Some things are better placed in the garden fallow
                          than on the lace tablecloth.
                           

                              > Clearly many Islamic Cultures can be described as "retarded" if
                              > compared to Western Culture. 
                           
                           
                          Yes, agreed, assuming we are using 'civilization' as the criteria.
                           
                           
                              > But that only works if one assumes that Western Culture represents
                              > some kind of ideal by which other cultures can be measured
                              > (this "measuring" or comparative thinking is itself flawed by the way).

                           
                          But isn't this 'comparative measuring' what you are doing in
                          relation to my point of view, right now?  :-)
                          "Hold on...nobody make a move or this nigger gets it!"
                          (as he holds the Colt 45 gun to his own head) 
                                  - The new sheriff in Blazing Saddles
                           
                          But regardless, it doesn't matter if Western culture is 'better'
                          than other cultures or not. It really all boils down to who has
                          the 'hammer,' doesn't it?
                           
                          Yes my friend, to the chagrin of lefties everywhere, it's all about POWER!
                          (Can't you just hear the groans of the 'affirmative action' crowd right
                          about now?.....'sproiiinnng' as the 'Jack in the Boxes' all jerk to Life
                          in mechanized protest)
                           
                          But seriously, hopefully we in the West don't wield this power 
                          arrogantly but rather embrace the Arthurian maxim:
                          "Right makes Might".....rather than the other way around.
                           
                          It's a fact that one can only remain in the 'drivers seat' as long
                          as one is motivated by the 'power of love' rather than simply the
                          'love of power.'
                           
                          But it doesn't matter if you, the moslems, the liberals, the 'Jack in the Boxes' 
                          or anyone else insists on qualifying this Western power through your own PC
                          moral filters.
                           
                          Power doesn't need permission to be what it is.
                           
                           
                              > most of the violence in these Islamic Cultures are David vs. Goliath
                              > efforts, by those who refuse any longer to have the necks under the
                              > boot of Western economic imperialism.
                           
                           
                          Yeah yeah, I know that I should be feeling guilty because I have incarnated
                          in a situation of national power.....but what can I say? (yawwwwnnn)
                          Hey, do you spoze I could excuse my own failures by blaming the
                          successes of others, too? It sure as hell would be easier, wouldn't it?
                           
                           
                              > What you are abstracting into some kind of Culture of Death bullshit,
                              > most Muslims would deny as the center of their religion. 
                           
                           
                          Most Moslems haven't the foggiest idea what their religion is even about.
                          (But then of course, neither do most Christians. The difference being that
                          the latter doesn't make a habit out of flying passenger planes into innocent
                          people)
                           
                           
                              > You are confusing what is essentially revolutionary anti-hegemony political
                              > reactions with some kind of Ahrimanic activity, without you being able
                              > to say that you "know" this through your own spiritual research.
                           
                           
                          Confusing things? Me?
                          You are pretending to have a point of reference from which to judge my
                          'confusion.' Let me know when you REALLY have such a foundation
                          and I will listen with deep intent. Until then, my knowledge isn't dependent
                          upon your approval.
                           

                              > Terrorism is actually a gift to the ongoing Rite of Passage (connected
                              > to the present and ongoing metamorphosis of civilization) in that it
                              > forces this moral crisis of choice (live in fear, or find a deeper level
                              > of response).  Until we learn to see that Evil always is in service of
                              > the Good, we will never find our way through the symptoms to the reality
                              > of modern times.
                           
                           
                          Yippee... behold the typical relativistic 'fast foot shuffle.'
                          (may I have this dance?)
                           
                          Joel, Goodness doesn't need 'the service of evil' to be what it is.
                          Goodness is what it is, period.
                           
                          But on the other hand, evil DOES need Goodness to be what IT is

                           
                              > Most of the thinking in the various quoted materials that have been
                              > posted lately to this list suffer from the general inadequacy common
                              > today in that it is basically the quantitative cause and effect abstract
                              > thinking that is created by our modern education that is permiated by an
                              > adherence to materialistic science (the real Ahrimanic Deception).
                           
                           
                          Shit....hold on a minute...I need to get my dictionary!

                           
                              > If we want knowledge, we have to overcome this habit of thought in our
                              > own minds, otherwise our perceptions of the social - political world
                              > will be illusory.
                           
                           
                          It sounds impressive on the surface.... but I don't necessarily
                          purchase into this isolated module of gastro-intestinal, fecal slough.
                           
                          Like I say, "I turd by any other name....."
                           
                           
                           
                          LVX
                           
                           
                           
                          BR
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           

                        • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                          In a message dated 12/3/2002 11:38:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... *******One wonders if the anthroposophists in the 1930s played these games while the Nazis
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 3, 2002
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                            In a message dated 12/3/2002 11:38:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, rlloyd@... writes:


                                > >     1. Out of 31 wars currently raging around the world 29 involve Muslims
                                > >       that have bloodied the borders in 65 different countries!
                                > >
                                > >     2. In the past 5 years, out Muslims have been involved in 91 percent
                                > >     of all terrorist acts, globally.
                                > >
                                > >     3. .....and 99 percent of all suicide bombings.
                                > >
                                > > Pro Life?....Hardly!
                                > >
                                >

                                > Dear Brother Ron,
                                >
                                > The problem with abstract thinking (isolating certain factors as if
                                > they were the essential cause producing the presumed effect) ought to be
                                > clear to any genuine spiritual scientist (this list is called
                                > anthroposophy is it not?).



                            Does Anthroposophy include practicing the denial of the obvious?
                            Couching simple things in 'scientific' terms does not change their
                            core meaning. "A turd by any other name is still a turd."



                            *******One wonders if the anthroposophists in the 1930s played these games while the Nazis started murdering more and more people....'Well, you know, they're only relatively bad, we can't call anything an absolute, this is a distraction from the REAL enemy which is whatever my poiltical prejudices say it is...." all the way down to the time the Society was expelled and all Waldorf Schools closed. As Steiner said, the common man would not know the Devil if he had him by the throat.
                            -starman
                            http://www.DrStarman.net
                          • Sören Groth
                            ... Yes, I m totally with you on this one, and in this dimension we really agree - The spiritual energies in the totality of Islam, don t contain the dynamics
                            Message 13 of 15 , Dec 3, 2002
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                              --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Br. Ron" <rlloyd@d...> wrote:

                              > (Sacred geometry bears me out on this fact too, but that
                              > may be better discussed off list or on a venue that is into that
                              > sort of thing....maybe it would be OK...I just have never
                              > had much response to it here except from you.
                              > Don't know why. One sacred symbol is worth 100,000 words.
                              > Only music is better for revealing hidden spiritual verities)

                              Yes, I'm totally with you on this one, and in this dimension we
                              really agree - The spiritual energies in the totality of Islam, don't
                              contain the dynamics of Christ ... and I seperate your points on this,
                              from the ones that get all agitated in some politico-religious
                              interpretation of such understanding...
                              Most confessing moslems aren't in the totality of Islam, but also
                              pre-islamic cultural influences and the global interaction... so again
                              in the politco-religious reality, the totality of spiritual energies
                              mix and interact, this is not relativity, in any other sense than
                              different absolute energies relate to each other, a dynamic... and
                              externally this may in a political-religious reality make a moderate
                              islamist human rights advocate into being more "christian" than a
                              phundy confessing christian combattant of "evil", turning out to be
                              more "square" than the arab lawyer.
                              We share the inner images.. the truth behind the logos
                              The polico-religiously confessing realities is result of the
                              approximation of translating the universal "logos" (which can't be
                              spoken and said - but seen and heard) to our imperfect earthly "logos's"

                              Always a pleasure to discuss the geometry with ye
                            • Sören Groth
                              ... As thanks for your earlier invitations to listen to the Trubadour - here s a humble musical response - http://www.freewebs.com/tcfactory/art/prelude.html
                              Message 14 of 15 , Dec 4, 2002
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                                > --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Br. Ron" <rlloyd@d...> wrote:

                                > > Only music is better for revealing hidden spiritual verities)

                                As thanks for your earlier invitations to listen to the Trubadour -
                                here's a humble musical response -

                                http://www.freewebs.com/tcfactory/art/prelude.html

                                Sören
                              • Br. Ron
                                Loved your musical piece, Unfolding, Soren. It contains both shadow and sparkle and is quite multi-dimensional. Let us know when you have more downloads!
                                Message 15 of 15 , Dec 4, 2002
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                                  Loved your musical piece, 'Unfolding,' Soren.
                                   
                                  It contains both shadow and sparkle
                                  and is quite 'multi-dimensional.'
                                   
                                  Let us know when you have more downloads!
                                   
                                  BR
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Sören Groth" <sgroth@...>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 4:27 AM
                                  Subject: Revelation - Music - Br. Ron - Was: Re: [anthroposophy]Intelligence and testing

                                  > --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Br. Ron" <rlloyd@d...> wrote:

                                  > > Only music is better for revealing hidden spiritual verities)

                                  As thanks for your earlier invitations to listen to the Trubadour -
                                  here's a humble musical response -

                                  http://www.freewebs.com/tcfactory/art/prelude.html

                                     Sören


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