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Political posts and bulletin board use

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  • Pacbay
    It would be nice not to further clutter this voluminous group with non spiritually oriented posts and have it used as political or social bulletin board. A
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 2, 2002
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      It would be nice not to further clutter this voluminous group with non spiritually oriented posts and have it used as political or social bulletin board. A spiritually oriented insight on a social or political trend is fine and more in tune with the intention of the group.( a link reference can be used to point those interested to an article).  
       
       
      Jeff
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 3:26 PM
      Subject: [anthroposophy] Suicide of the west

      November 20, 2002

      LIBERAL DEMOCRACY'S FINAL HOUR
      by Paul Craig Roberts

      ....multiculturalism and the emergence of group rights based on
      victim status are eroding equality in law, freedom of conscience and
      free speech.

      As these are the historic achievements of liberal democracy, how can
      the future belong to a system that is undergoing meltdown at its
      core?

    • 888
      Dear Jeff, ... non spiritually oriented posts and have it used as political or social bulletin board. A spiritually oriented insight on a social or political
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 2, 2002
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        Dear Jeff,
        > It would be nice not to further clutter this voluminous group with
        non spiritually oriented posts and have it used as political or
        social bulletin board. A spiritually oriented insight on a social or
        political trend is fine and more in tune with the intention of the
        >group.( a link reference can be used to point those interested to an
        >article).

        Yes, I would ask that listmembers make an effort to connect their
        posts to the list topic rather than just post newspaper articles. And
        rather than post the whole thing, why not take out the relevant
        points and then add the link.

        Greetings,
        Bruce

        Moderator
      • Joel Wendt
        Dear List-mates, I would like to start a new thread, which is nonetheless connected to aspects of many previous threads. The basic question is whether as
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 3, 2002
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          Dear List-mates,

          I would like to start a new thread, which is nonetheless connected to
          aspects of many previous threads.

          The basic question is whether as students of spiritual science, we need
          to apply quite specific "hows" to the way we "think" about these
          matters.

          Steiner's epistemological works suggest that the product of thinking is
          dependent upon the qualitative nature of the will-in-thinking. Mostly
          we have been discussing the products of our various styles of thinking,
          and I was wondering if it might be productive to separate out the
          structure of the thinking act itself as a subject of discussion.

          For example, we might use the terms "quantitative-analytical cause and
          effect thinking", "qualitative-characterizing thinking", and
          "moral-spiritual thinking" to represent ordinary thinking, Goetheanistic
          thinking, and purely spiritual thinking.

          Let me start the discussion with this question - do various members of
          the group consider "how" (what effort at will-in-thinking) they think to
          be relevant to the produced content? And, if so, in what way?

          warm regards,
          joel
        • elaineupton2001
          Dear Joel and all of this thread, Thank you--mucho!, Joel, for the invitation to think (as anthroposophists and practictioners of spiritual science) --to think
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 3, 2002
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            Dear Joel and all of this thread,

            Thank you--mucho!, Joel, for the invitation to think (as
            anthroposophists and practictioners of spiritual science) --to think
            about our thinking, and to notice different kinds of thinking
            (quantitative, qualitative, moral) and how these affect our views on
            politics and social situations, for example.

            If some of us are here to "put a fly in the ointment"--that is, to
            make witty remarks for the sake of putting others down, or to
            casually play around on the margins of strenuous spiritual and moral
            thinking (as in our calling as anthropops and students of spiritual
            science), then that, to me, is a waste of --at least of *my*-time,
            so I no longer read posts that I find simply here to play around, to
            distract from (or abstract from) our pursuit of meaning and a higher
            truth. I realize that in making such a choice--to read or not read--
            I am exercising a choice that each of us has and I am also revealing
            my own views.

            Anyway, I do take your call seriously, joel, and pray to have
            insights that help me grow in moral and spiritual thinking, beyond
            mere abstractions, reductiveness, cause-effect logic (not that the
            latter is all bad, but it is limited).

            It seems to me reductive to say "all Islamists are about death" and
            Christians are about life. It seems to me abstract, irresponsible
            and strikes me as having little to do with moral thinking. So, I
            stop reading such posts....and I seek to find communion with deeper
            moral thinking, and to sharpen my own thinking in this regard.

            That's all for now. More later...
            With thanks,
            elaine
          • Br. Ron
            (Elaine) ... Who are you referring to, here? Moi? I don t recall anyone here saying anything like that. There are undoubtedly some who consider themselves
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 3, 2002
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                     (Elaine)
                  > It seems to me reductive to say "all Islamists are about death" and
                 
              > Christians are about life. It seems to me abstract, irresponsible
                  > and strikes me as having little to do with moral thinking.
               
              Who are you referring to, here? Moi?
              I don't recall anyone here saying anything like that.
              There are undoubtedly some who consider themselves
              Muslims who haven't been totally drawn into the black hole
              that is the spirit of the Koran. 
               
                  > So, I stop reading such posts....and I seek to find
                  > communion with deeper moral thinking, and to
                  > sharpen my own thinking in this regard.
              Elaine you have claimed to have "stopped reading"
              my posts now for over two years, yet you continue to
              respond.  Isn't that sorta like the church committee who
              continuously thumbs through the porno mags huffing their 
              moral indignation from cover to cover, issue after issue?
               
              Hey, give me REAL people, not spiritual wannabes.
               
              "Deeper moral thinking" has more to do with the
              honest quest for Truth, no matter how painful,  
              rather than simply being a 'nice student.' 
               
              This Quest requires brutal self examination and
              simply putting lipstick on a stone does not a
              a ruby, make.  This requires a massive heat and
              pressure that few are willing to endure.
               
              THESE courageous ones are the real students....
              and they are rare indeed.
               
              But there are 3 or 4 on this list and that's enough
              to keep me here.
               
               
               
              BR
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
            • holderlin66
              ... Dear Self examination lovers; Now, pending in my heart and mind are some interesting research items about Pineal and Pituitary as well as Chlorophyll and
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 3, 2002
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                --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Br. Ron" <rlloyd@d...> wrote:
                > (Elaine)
                >
                > This Quest requires brutal self examination and
                > simply putting lipstick on a stone does not a
                > a ruby, make. This requires a massive heat and
                > pressure that few are willing to endure.
                > BR

                Dear Self examination lovers;

                Now, pending in my heart and mind are some interesting research items
                about Pineal and Pituitary as well as Chlorophyll and the Green Man.
                I know it is hardly enough to hold for a moment the concept that
                Shakespeare in his Hamlet wrote a real Philosophy of Freedom and that
                Hamlet himself, as the historical personality, wasn't a myth but was
                the metamorphosed, reincarnated Hector of Troy. That as well as other
                things should startle and amaze those who walk with the Michael
                School and I'm sure it does for one split second.

                Mars forces in history that transfer themselves to the Mercurial or
                Healing forces of current Earth evolution should also startle and
                amaze us. But we certainly avoid making the joy of effort to realize
                the impact of all of this. We have come to see how Buddha/Jesus as
                the Astral body, the Personality forces hidden in 12 year old Jesus,
                foreshadowed what puberty and creative reproductive sanction started
                to bring the young adult Jesus into what he would become with
                Zarathustra's aid. Now this also appears to be lightly taken, but now
                let us get to the grist what I offer as self examination.

                The grist is how do we diagnose the observation that Sentient (astral
                phase II) Soul and Intellectual soul forces tied to the double and
                inner egregores of the United States, dominate the perceptions of
                those around us?

                First let us look at David Hume from 1740

                "When our own nation is at war with any other, we detest them under
                the character of cruel, perdifidious, unjust and violent: But always
                esteem ourselves and allies equitable, moderate and merciful. If the
                general of our enemies be successful, 'tis with difficulty we allow
                him the figure and character of a man. He is a sorcerer: He has a
                communication with daemons; [they worship a meteor, a borg like
                block, a Black Slab like 2001 a Space Odyssey. but to cont.. with
                Hume]... as is reported of Oliver Cromwell, and the Duke of
                Luxembourg: He is bloody-minded, and takes a pleasure in death and
                destruction. But if the success be on our side, our commander has all
                the opposite good qualities, and is a pattern of virtue, as well as
                of courage and conduct. His treachery we call policy: His cruelty is
                an evil inseperable from war. In short, everyone of his faults we
                either endeavour to extenuate, or dignify it with the name of that
                virtue, which approaches it."

                Bradford comments;

                That of course was then. But what about now. How do we look inside
                anothers thoughts and find that they are still entangled in Sentient
                illusions, egregorial unconsciousness passions, stirred by their
                already raw, uncut, bias. We wish to hear the Gold and I should know
                because I walk into classrooms and the students pray that some real
                gold will come forth instead of the ugly substance of the common
                brand of Sentient and Intellectual Soul treachery of thought.

                We answer by showing Gullvieg and the Norse, we say Thrice burned and
                Thrice blessed Thoth and we relate that to the Initiation of the
                Astral body through the passion fire of three stages of atral-human
                biography. I will also mention, in passing, that Norse Days of our
                weeks are really Odhinn/Jesus/Buddha based. That is Friday= Good
                Freya or Good Kundry or redeemed Aphrodite. Thor and Thursday and
                Wotan and Wednesday etc.. yet they are also the picture of our
                Planets and Earth's holy development as well as the Rainbow. If
                Magdalene had seven deadly sins in her Astral body, they would be the
                shadows of the Rainbow field. They appear daily on American T.V. as
                Jerry Springer celebrations of Pig dung, along with our warped press.
                But, what is important, is that we can speak of Gold and Light and
                We - We here - are the bearers of the New Gold Standard of the Risen
                Christ. This requires that we have clear Self Examination.

                But finding the Gold through a 1933 region of historical grasp of
                events, is not enough. So now we add further self examination into
                how we know the Sentient Soul and Intellectual Soul we hear from the
                Press and sometimes around here, is entangled by the double, and
                egregores and truly addicted to tremors of Deadly astral sins that
                will not allow the Consciousness Soul and the future Spirit Self to
                be heard.

                The excuse is that they must be liberals and they must be just pansy
                Anthro's. Here is how I know that the entanglements described above
                can be found in the unstransformed and uneducated Astral and
                Intellectual Soul forces.. These two, Sentient as 'potentially'
                refined astral passions, and Intellectual Soul thinking, as Etheric
                weaving of Justice and Human Rights, are entangled in the morass of
                Public Media brainwashing and unable to disentangle themeselves
                enough to weave gold into their contributions.

                "The goal of such nationalistic rhetoric is to invoke pity for one's
                own. The goal is to show the community that what they hold sacred is
                under threat. The enemy, we are told, seeks to destroy relgious and
                cultural life, the very identity of the group or state. Nationalistic
                songs, epic poems, twisted accounts of history take the place of
                scholarship and art.

                "America is not immune, We mourn the victims of the World Trade
                Center attack. Their pictures cover subway walls. We mourn the
                firefighters, as well we should. But we are blind to those whom we
                and our allies in the Middle East have crushed or whose rights have
                been ignored for decades. They seem not to count.

                "The principle of the movement is whoever is not included is
                excluded, whoever is not with me is against me, so the world loses
                all the nuances and pluralistic aspects that have become too
                confusing for the masses," wrote Hannah Arendt in the "Origins of
                Totalitarianism"

                "Before conflicts begin, the first people silenced - often with
                violence - are not the nationalist leaders of the opposing ethnic or
                religious group, who are useful in that they serve to dump gasoline
                on the the evolving conflict. Those voices within the ethnic group or
                the nation that question the state's lust and need for war are
                targeted. These dissidents are the most dangerous. They gives us an
                alternative language, one that refuses to define the other
                as "barbarian" or "evil", one that recognizes the humanity of the
                enemy, one that does not condone violence as a form of communication.
                Such voices are rarely heeded. And until we learn once again to speak
                in our own voice and reject that handed to us by the state in times
                of war, we flirt with our own destruction."

                "...But war usually demands, byt its very logic, the disabling of the
                enemy, often broadly defined to include civilians who may have little
                love for the Taliban or Saddam Hussein or Somali warlords. While we
                venerate and mourn our own dead we are curiously indifferent about
                thoswe we kill. Thus killing is done in our name, killing that
                concerns us little, while those who kill our own are seen as having
                crawled out of the deepest recesses of the earth, lacking our own
                humanity and goodness. Our Dead. Their dead. They are not the same.
                Our dead matter, theirs do not. Many Israelis defend the killing of
                Palestinian children whose only crime was to throw rocks at armored
                patrols, while many Palestinians applaud the murder of Israeli
                children by suicide bombers.

                "Armed movements seek divine sanction and the messianic certitude of
                absolute truth. They do not need to get this from religions, as we
                usually think of religion, but a type of religion: Patriotism
                provides the blessing. Soldiers want at least the consolation of
                knowing that they risk being blown up by land mines for a greater
                glory, for a New World. Dissension, questioning of purpose, the
                exposure of war crimes carried out by those fighting on our behalf
                are dangerous to such beliefs. Dissidents who challenge the goodness
                of our cause, who question the gods of war, who pull back the
                curtains to expose the lie are usually silenced or ignored."

                Bradford comments;

                I will explain these quotes, but first it is important to arrive at
                the very core Sentient and Intellectual soul egregorial and religious
                masturbation that passes itself off as serious Political opinion.
                Self Examination as to the lurking love of Passion in the Sentient
                soul, passion for passions sake, Patriotic or watching and cheering
                as the once Great America steps a stride closer to the Ahrimanization
                of it's highest principles is not neutral here.

                Freedom and the Rights of anyone. The constant watered down lumping
                of all Islamics into one vat is plain shameful, cowardly and reveals
                the extent of how self examination has been missed and puts parts of
                the soul life, out of reach of the Consciousness Soul dignity and
                bearing. Razors and hairs breadth of opinion of soul life that merely
                swims with the masses in the sea of Sentient trash opinions are
                easily revealed. It is not enough to see how America worships the
                Sopranos as it's secret family values. It is not enough that the
                fellow just nominated to head SEC, Pitts I think, was fired because
                all of the appointees were caught and entangled in more and more of
                the same type of cooked books corporate scandals they were supposed
                to police. What was the hope of their appointments, that nobody in
                America would notice the out right greed and lust for success and
                Power at any cost that has infected the American Economic, CEO
                condition?

                "Patriotism, often a thinly veiled form of collective self-worship,
                celebrates our goodness, our ideals, our mercy and bemoans the
                perfidiousness of those who hate us. Never mind the murder and
                repression done in our name by bloody surrogates from the Shah of
                Iran to the Congolese dictator Joseph Desire Mobutu, who received
                from Washington well over a billion dollars in civilian and military
                aid during the three decades of his rule..."

                "War makes the world understandable, a black and white tableau of
                them and us. It suspends thought, especially self critical thought.
                All bow before the supreme effort. We are one. Most of us willingly
                accept war as long as we can fold it into a belief system that paints
                the ensuing suffering as neccessary for a higher good, for human
                beings seek not only happiness but also meaning..."

                "The eruption of conflict instantly reduces the headache and trivia
                of daily life. The communal march against an enemy genrates a warm,
                unfamiliar bond with our neighbors, our community, our nation, wiping
                out unsettling undercurrents of alienation and dislocation. War, in
                times of malaise and desperation, is a potent distraction.

                "The enduring attraction of war is this: Even with its destruction
                and carnage it can give us what we long for in life. It can give us
                purpose, meaning, a reason for living. Only when we are in the midst
                of conflict does the shallowness and vapidness of much of our lives
                become apparent. Trivia dominates our conversations and increasingly
                our airwaves. And war is an enticing elixir. It gives us resolve, a
                cause. It allows us to be noble. And those who have the least meaning
                in their lives, the impoverished refugees in Gaza, the
                disnefranchised North African immigrants in France, even the legions
                of young who live in the splendid indolence and safety of the
                industrialized world, are all susceptible to war's appeal."

                Bradford comments;

                Now the point of all of this, and I know Soren has made excellent
                points and Stephen has put in his extended research, all of this
                raises the anty. We have plenty of wonderful and new insights we need
                to work on together, Starman had a book I would be interested in, if
                he completed it and I just finished a lecture on video tape about the
                Two Jesus Beings which I shall gladly offer up. The point is I am
                interested in the struggles to get a handle on the trivia of the
                Sentient and Intelllectual Soul forces that swing a wonderful axe at
                enemies and merely throw their thoughts into the collective, clever
                unconscious bashing of really totally trivia matters. This list, I
                fully recognize, is just one little puddle in the electronic Fall of
                Michael Intelligence into Bill Gates pocket book. Aside from the
                immense amount I was learning from our Threefold discussions, still,
                woven into all of this are the serious issues that have to do
                with "What Ails Thee" and our inability to understand the Spirit Self
                as attained by Parsifal or the Astral Body of Buddha that was the
                wonderful Jesus Individual on the Cross.

                The quotes I used were from Chris Hedges and I can clearly identify
                his struggle now to attain a Consciousness Soul standpoint outside of
                the Sentient and Intellectual soul. His work is a clear example of
                the things in one self, in self examination of war, that some of us
                here on this list are too cowardly to place under the light of self
                examination.

                If you allow yourself to understand a man who sought out Wars and War
                coverage and saw first hand the substance of the illusion so
                overriding our perception of War that has landed us in America with a
                Totalitarian Lie that is growing, and growing with each day, you will
                faintly grasp Chris Hedges standpoint. The title of the book, which I
                heard about first on that Liberal Program of NPR, and I heard in the
                review the very intimate struggle this man was having to break into
                the Consciousness Soul, that is missed by so many everywhere by mere
                shades and hairs of cut.. so Gold is lacking everywhere where
                brotherhood and International gold should be harvested.

                The title of the book, is "War Is A Force That Gives Us Meaning". It
                attains the Buddha/Jesus intuition without knowing what we know here
                on this list. Chris Hedges says, "The only antidote to ward off self-
                destruction and the indiscriminate use of force is humility and
                ultimately, compassion..." This statement struck me very strongly as
                I am sure it will you, " The name Odysseus is tied to the Greek verb
                Odussomai, which means "to suffer pain." Odhinn or Boding or Buddha
                moves under a similar linguistic direction.

                Here we see what I have indicated, that the Devachan has a school for
                those who have been drawn into Carnage and the false Mars side of
                Earth evolution. This infection of false Mars is now incorporated in
                our thinking, we have Talk Show hosts who rage around us. Opinions
                are invested with super Sentient Force and carried over into the
                false carnage of believing in the purity of the team we are backing
                against the evilness of the other guys. In Chris Hedges we can
                witness a breaking moment of someone who has remembered his
                experiences in the Mars Devachan and has brought his I AM toward the
                Consciousness Soul with the force of an epiphany. It is painful self-
                examination and it is sorely lacking in some of us who hold kinship
                to the Michael School but cannot see the shores of the Consciousness
                Soul without a hundred willow wisps devouring what could have been
                pure Gold.

                Bradford
              • Br. Ron
                You know something, Bradford? I hate war. I hate the bloody onslaught much the same way I hate radical surgery and hospitals. Nor should either be undertaken
                Message 7 of 9 , Dec 4, 2002
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                  You know something, Bradford?
                  I hate war.
                  I hate the bloody onslaught much the same way
                  I hate radical surgery and hospitals.
                   
                  Nor should either be undertaken from strictly
                  a point of passion.
                   
                  Only full consciousness has the discernment and
                  authority necessary to distinguish and exorcise
                  the tumor from healthy tissue.
                   
                  Nor are all egregore bad.
                  After all, one's body is an egregore of cells just
                  as one's individual character is an egregore of personalities.
                   
                  There is a time for well placed patriotism
                  whether it be for the national collective
                  or the personal one.
                   
                  And you are correct my dear friend.
                  Brutal self examination is required
                  in all such cases of martial activity.
                   
                  In our prognosis let us remember that
                  while it is deadly to destroy healthy tissue
                  it is equally deadly NOT to destroy that
                  which is malignant.
                   
                  Hence, the wise are neither 'conservative' nor 'liberal.'
                   
                  The wise are kings.
                   
                  And 'heavy is the head that wears the crown,'
                  particularly in a strange kingdom like this where it is
                  impossible to live without killing.
                   
                  Love
                   
                  BR
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   

                  > > This Quest requires brutal self examination and
                  > >
                  simply putting lipstick on a stone does not a
                  > > a ruby, make. 
                  This requires a massive heat and
                  > > pressure that few are willing to
                  endure.
                  > > BR
                  >
                  > Dear Self examination lovers;
                  >
                  > Now, pending in my heart and mind are some interesting research items
                  > about Pineal and Pituitary as well as Chlorophyll and the Green Man.
                  > I know it is hardly enough to hold for a moment the concept that
                  > Shakespeare in his Hamlet wrote a real Philosophy of Freedom and that
                  > Hamlet himself, as the historical personality, wasn't a myth but was
                  > the metamorphosed, reincarnated Hector of Troy. That as well as other
                  > things should startle and amaze those who walk with the Michael
                  > School and I'm sure it does for one split second.
                  >
                  >
                  Mars forces in history that transfer themselves to the Mercurial or
                  >
                  Healing forces of current Earth evolution should also startle and
                  > amaze
                  us. But we certainly avoid making the joy of effort to realize
                  > the
                  impact of all of this. We have come to see how Buddha/Jesus as
                  > the
                  Astral body, the Personality forces hidden in 12 year old Jesus,
                  >
                  foreshadowed what puberty and creative reproductive sanction started
                  > to
                  bring the young adult Jesus into what he would become with
                  >
                  Zarathustra's aid. Now this also appears to be lightly taken, but now
                  >
                  let us get to the grist what I offer as self examination.
                  >
                  > The
                  grist is how do we diagnose the observation that Sentient (astral
                  > phase
                  II) Soul and Intellectual soul forces tied to the double and
                  > inner
                  egregores of the United States, dominate the perceptions of
                  > those
                  around us?
                  >
                  > First let us look at David Hume from 1740
                  >
                  > "When our own nation is at war with any other, we detest them under
                  > the character of cruel, perdifidious, unjust and violent: But always
                  > esteem ourselves and allies equitable, moderate and merciful. If the
                  > general of our enemies be successful, 'tis with difficulty we allow
                  > him the figure and character of a man. He is a sorcerer: He has a
                  > communication with daemons; [they worship a meteor, a borg like
                  > block, a Black Slab like 2001 a Space Odyssey. but to cont.. with
                  > Hume]... as is reported of Oliver Cromwell, and the Duke of
                  >
                  Luxembourg: He is bloody-minded, and takes a pleasure in death and
                  >
                  destruction. But if the success be on our side, our commander has all
                  >
                  the opposite good qualities, and is a pattern of virtue, as well as
                  > of
                  courage and conduct. His treachery we call policy: His cruelty is
                  > an
                  evil inseperable from war. In short, everyone of his faults we
                  > either
                  endeavour to extenuate, or dignify it with the name of that
                  > virtue,
                  which approaches it."
                  >
                  > Bradford comments;
                  >
                  > That
                  of course was then. But what about now. How do we look inside
                  > anothers
                  thoughts and find that they are still entangled in Sentient
                  > illusions,
                  egregorial unconsciousness passions, stirred by their
                  > already raw,
                  uncut, bias. We wish to hear the Gold and I should know
                  > because I walk
                  into classrooms and the students pray that some real
                  > gold will come
                  forth instead of the ugly substance of the common
                  > brand of Sentient and
                  Intellectual Soul treachery of thought.
                  >
                  > We answer by showing
                  Gullvieg and the Norse, we say Thrice burned and
                  > Thrice blessed Thoth
                  and we relate that to the Initiation of the
                  > Astral body through the
                  passion fire of three stages of atral-human
                  > biography. I will also
                  mention, in passing, that Norse Days of our
                  > weeks are really
                  Odhinn/Jesus/Buddha based. That is Friday= Good
                  > Freya or Good Kundry or
                  redeemed Aphrodite. Thor and Thursday and
                  > Wotan and Wednesday etc.. yet
                  they are also the picture of our
                  > Planets and Earth's holy development
                  as well as the Rainbow. If
                  > Magdalene had seven deadly sins in her
                  Astral body, they would be the
                  > shadows of the Rainbow field. They
                  appear daily on American T.V. as
                  > Jerry Springer celebrations of Pig
                  dung, along with our warped press.
                  > But, what is important, is that we
                  can speak of Gold and Light and
                  > We - We here - are the bearers of the
                  New Gold Standard of the Risen
                  > Christ. This requires that we have clear
                  Self Examination.
                  >
                  > But finding the Gold through a 1933 region of
                  historical grasp of
                  > events, is not enough. So now we add further self
                  examination into
                  > how we know the Sentient Soul and Intellectual Soul we
                  hear from the
                  > Press and sometimes around here, is entangled by the
                  double, and
                  > egregores and truly addicted to tremors of Deadly astral
                  sins that
                  > will not allow the Consciousness Soul and the future Spirit
                  Self to
                  > be heard.
                  >
                  > The excuse is that they must be
                  liberals and they must be just pansy
                  > Anthro's. Here is how I know that
                  the entanglements described above
                  > can be found in the unstransformed
                  and uneducated Astral and
                  > Intellectual Soul forces.. These two,
                  Sentient as 'potentially'
                  > refined astral passions,  and
                  Intellectual Soul thinking, as Etheric
                  > weaving of Justice and Human
                  Rights, are entangled in the morass of
                  > Public Media brainwashing and
                  unable to disentangle themeselves
                  > enough to weave gold into their
                  contributions.
                  >
                  > "The goal of such nationalistic rhetoric is to
                  invoke pity for one's
                  > own. The goal is to show the community that what
                  they hold sacred is
                  > under threat. The enemy, we are told, seeks to
                  destroy relgious and
                  > cultural life, the very identity of the group or
                  state. Nationalistic
                  > songs, epic poems, twisted accounts of history
                  take the place of
                  > scholarship and art.
                  >
                  > "America is not
                  immune, We mourn the victims of the World Trade
                  > Center attack. Their
                  pictures cover subway walls. We mourn the
                  > firefighters, as well we
                  should. But we are blind to those whom we
                  > and our allies in the Middle
                  East have crushed or whose rights have
                  > been ignored for decades. They
                  seem not to count.
                  >
                  > "The principle of the movement is whoever is
                  not included is
                  > excluded, whoever is not with me is against me, so the
                  world loses
                  > all the nuances and pluralistic aspects that have become
                  too
                  > confusing for the masses," wrote Hannah Arendt in the "Origins of
                  > Totalitarianism" 
                  >
                  > "Before conflicts begin, the
                  first people silenced - often with
                  > violence - are not the nationalist
                  leaders of the opposing ethnic or
                  > religious group, who are useful in
                  that they serve to dump gasoline
                  > on the the evolving conflict. Those
                  voices within the ethnic group or
                  > the nation that question the state's
                  lust and need for war are
                  > targeted. These dissidents are the most
                  dangerous. They gives us an
                  > alternative language, one that refuses to
                  define the other
                  > as "barbarian" or "evil", one that recognizes the
                  humanity of the
                  > enemy, one that does not condone violence as a form of
                  communication.
                  > Such voices are rarely heeded. And until we learn once
                  again to speak
                  > in our own voice and reject that handed to us by the
                  state in times
                  > of war, we flirt with our own destruction."
                  >
                  > "...But war usually demands, byt its very logic, the disabling of the
                  > enemy, often broadly defined to include civilians who may have little
                  > love for the Taliban or Saddam Hussein or Somali warlords. While we
                  > venerate and mourn our own dead we are curiously indifferent about
                  > thoswe we kill. Thus killing is done in our name, killing that
                  >
                  concerns us little, while those who kill our own are seen as having
                  >
                  crawled out of the deepest recesses of the earth, lacking our own
                  >
                  humanity and goodness. Our Dead. Their dead. They are not the same.
                  > Our
                  dead matter, theirs do not. Many Israelis defend the killing of
                  >
                  Palestinian children whose only crime was to throw rocks at armored
                  >
                  patrols, while many Palestinians applaud the murder of Israeli
                  > children
                  by suicide bombers.
                  >
                  > "Armed movements seek divine sanction and
                  the messianic certitude of
                  > absolute truth. They do not need to get this
                  from religions, as we
                  > usually think of religion, but a type of
                  religion: Patriotism
                  > provides the blessing. Soldiers want at least the
                  consolation of
                  > knowing that they risk being blown up by land mines for
                  a greater
                  > glory, for a New World. Dissension, questioning of purpose,
                  the
                  > exposure of war crimes carried out by those fighting on our behalf
                  > are dangerous to such beliefs. Dissidents who challenge the goodness
                  > of our cause, who question the gods of war, who pull back the
                  >
                  curtains to expose the lie are usually silenced or ignored."
                  >
                  >
                  Bradford comments;
                  >
                  > I will explain these quotes, but first it is
                  important to arrive at
                  > the very core Sentient and Intellectual soul
                  egregorial and religious
                  > masturbation that passes itself off as serious
                  Political opinion.
                  > Self Examination as to the lurking love of Passion
                  in the Sentient
                  > soul, passion for passions sake, Patriotic or watching
                  and cheering
                  > as the once Great America steps a stride closer to the
                  Ahrimanization
                  > of it's highest principles is not neutral here.
                  >
                  > Freedom and the Rights of anyone. The constant watered down lumping
                  > of all Islamics into one vat is plain shameful, cowardly and reveals
                  > the extent of how self examination has been missed and puts parts of
                  > the soul life, out of reach of the Consciousness Soul dignity and
                  > bearing. Razors and hairs breadth of opinion of soul life that merely
                  > swims with the masses in the sea of Sentient trash opinions are
                  > easily revealed. It is not enough to see how America worships the
                  > Sopranos as it's secret family values. It is not enough that the
                  > fellow just nominated to head SEC, Pitts I think, was fired because
                  > all of the appointees were caught and entangled in more and more 
                  of
                  > the same type of cooked books corporate scandals they were supposed
                  > to police. What was the hope of their appointments, that nobody in
                  > America would notice the out right greed and lust for success and
                  > Power at any cost that has infected the American Economic, CEO
                  >
                  condition?
                  >
                  > "Patriotism, often a thinly veiled form of
                  collective self-worship,
                  > celebrates our goodness, our ideals, our mercy
                  and bemoans  the
                  > perfidiousness of those who hate us. Never mind
                  the murder and
                  > repression done in our name by bloody surrogates from
                  the Shah of
                  > Iran to the Congolese dictator Joseph Desire Mobutu, who
                  received
                  > from Washington well over a billion dollars in civilian and
                  military
                  > aid during the three decades of his rule..."
                  >
                  >
                  "War makes the world understandable, a black and white tableau of
                  > them
                  and us. It suspends thought, especially self critical thought.
                  > All bow
                  before the supreme effort. We are one. Most of us willingly
                  > accept war
                  as long as we can fold it into a belief system that paints
                  > the ensuing
                  suffering as neccessary for a higher good, for human
                  > beings seek not
                  only happiness but also meaning..."
                  >
                  > "The eruption of conflict
                  instantly reduces the headache and trivia
                  > of daily life. The communal
                  march against an enemy genrates a warm,
                  > unfamiliar bond with our
                  neighbors, our community, our nation, wiping
                  > out unsettling
                  undercurrents of alienation and dislocation. War, in
                  > times of malaise
                  and desperation, is a potent distraction.
                  >
                  > "The enduring
                  attraction of war is this: Even with its destruction
                  > and carnage it can
                  give us what we long for in life. It can give us
                  > purpose, meaning, a
                  reason for living. Only when we are in the midst
                  > of conflict does the
                  shallowness and vapidness of much of our lives
                  > become apparent. Trivia
                  dominates our conversations and increasingly
                  > our airwaves. And war is
                  an enticing elixir. It gives us resolve, a
                  > cause. It allows us to be
                  noble. And those who have the least meaning
                  > in their lives, the
                  impoverished refugees in Gaza, the
                  > disnefranchised North African
                  immigrants in France, even the legions
                  > of young who live in the
                  splendid indolence and safety of the
                  > industrialized world, are all
                  susceptible to war's appeal."
                  >
                  > Bradford comments;
                  >
                  > Now the point of all of this, and I know Soren has made excellent
                  > points and Stephen has put in his extended research, all of this
                  > raises the anty. We have plenty of wonderful and new insights we need
                  > to work on together, Starman had a book I would be interested in, if
                  > he completed it and I just finished a lecture on video tape about the
                  > Two Jesus Beings which I shall gladly offer up. The point is I am
                  > interested in the struggles to get a handle on the trivia of the
                  > Sentient and Intelllectual Soul forces that swing a wonderful axe at
                  > enemies and merely throw their thoughts into the collective, clever
                  > unconscious bashing of really totally trivia matters. This list, I
                  > fully recognize, is just one little puddle in the electronic Fall of
                  > Michael Intelligence into Bill Gates pocket book. Aside from the
                  > immense amount I was learning from our Threefold discussions, still,
                  > woven into all of this are the serious issues that have to do
                  >
                  with "What Ails Thee" and our inability to understand the Spirit Self
                  >
                  as attained by Parsifal or the Astral Body of Buddha that was the
                  >
                  wonderful Jesus Individual on the Cross.
                  >
                  > The quotes I used were
                  from Chris Hedges and I can clearly identify
                  > his struggle now to attain
                  a Consciousness Soul standpoint outside of
                  > the Sentient and
                  Intellectual soul. His work is a clear example of
                  > the things in one
                  self, in self examination of war, that some of us
                  > here on this list are
                  too cowardly to place under the light of self
                  > examination.
                  >
                  > If you allow yourself to understand a man who sought out Wars and War
                  > coverage and saw first hand the substance of the illusion so
                  >
                  overriding our perception of War that has landed us in America with a
                  >
                  Totalitarian Lie that is growing, and growing with each day, you will
                  >
                  faintly grasp Chris Hedges standpoint. The title of the book, which I
                  >
                  heard about first on that Liberal Program of NPR, and I heard in the
                  >
                  review the very intimate struggle this man was having to break into
                  > the
                  Consciousness Soul, that is missed by so many everywhere by mere
                  > shades
                  and hairs of cut.. so Gold is lacking everywhere where
                  > brotherhood and
                  International gold should be harvested.
                  >
                  > The title of the book,
                  is "War Is A Force That Gives Us Meaning". It
                  > attains the Buddha/Jesus
                  intuition without knowing what we know here
                  > on this list. Chris Hedges
                  says, "The only antidote to ward off self-
                  > destruction and the
                  indiscriminate use of force is humility and
                  > ultimately, compassion..."
                  This statement struck me very strongly as
                  > I am sure it will you, " The
                  name Odysseus is tied to the Greek verb
                  > Odussomai, which means "to
                  suffer pain." Odhinn or Boding or Buddha
                  > moves under a similar
                  linguistic direction.
                  >
                  > Here we see what I have indicated, that
                  the Devachan has a school for
                  > those who have been drawn into Carnage
                  and the false Mars side of
                  > Earth evolution. This infection of false
                  Mars is now incorporated in
                  > our thinking, we have Talk Show hosts who
                  rage around us. Opinions
                  > are invested with super Sentient Force and
                  carried over into the
                  > false carnage of believing in the purity of the
                  team we are backing
                  > against the evilness of the other guys. In Chris
                  Hedges we can
                  > witness a breaking moment of someone who has remembered
                  his
                  > experiences in the Mars Devachan and has brought his I AM toward
                  the
                  > Consciousness Soul with the force of an epiphany. It is painful
                  self-
                  > examination and it is sorely lacking in some of us who hold
                  kinship
                  > to the Michael School but cannot see the shores of the
                  Consciousness
                  > Soul without a hundred willow wisps devouring what could
                  have been
                  > pure Gold.
                  >
                  > Bradford
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • Joel Wendt
                  ... Dear Bradford, Well, this one I followed you on. Maybe I am starting to get the hang of your written. Wonderful contribution, thank you. warm regards,
                  Message 8 of 9 , Dec 5, 2002
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                    On Tue, 2002-12-03 at 20:52, holderlin66 wrote:
                    > --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Br. Ron" <rlloyd@d...> wrote:
                    > > (Elaine)
                    > >
                    > > This Quest requires brutal self examination and
                    > > simply putting lipstick on a stone does not a
                    > > a ruby, make. This requires a massive heat and
                    > > pressure that few are willing to endure.
                    > > BR
                    >
                    > Dear Self examination lovers;
                    >

                    Dear Bradford,

                    Well, this one I followed you on. Maybe I am starting to get the hang
                    of your written. Wonderful contribution, thank you.

                    warm regards,
                    joel
                  • elaineupton2001
                    Hello dear Brother Ron, and all, It s been a while since I talked with you, Brother Ron. I appreciate your lively warm post (addressed to Bradford), and would
                    Message 9 of 9 , Dec 5, 2002
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                      Hello dear Brother Ron, and all,

                      It's been a while since I talked with you, Brother Ron. I appreciate
                      your lively warm post (addressed to Bradford), and would like to note
                      a few things you say, and comment on one or two other things you say.

                      You write:

                      > You know something, Bradford?
                      > I hate war.
                      > I hate the bloody onslaught much the same way
                      > I hate radical surgery and hospitals.
                      >
                      > Nor should either be undertaken from strictly
                      > a point of passion.
                      >
                      > Only full consciousness has the discernment and
                      > authority necessary to distinguish and exorcise
                      > the tumor from healthy tissue.


                      Ok, now what exactly is this "full consiousness" that has discernment
                      about exorcizing tumors? Moreover, what is the nature of the "tumor"
                      in the first place?--I'll return to these questions, but first let me
                      quote you further. Continuing with the tumor and surgery metaphor,
                      you say:

                      >((...)) while it is deadly to destroy healthy tissue
                      >it is equally deadly NOT to destroy that which is malignant.

                      So, again, my question, what is the nature of the malignancy, and if
                      it needs to be destroyed, how and by whom (supposedly by this someone
                      or someones of "full consciousness")?

                      Since this is a list on anthroposophy and the pursuit of spiritual
                      science through anthroposophy, let us, if you (and others) will,
                      discuss the matter in these terms. "Full consciousness"? Steiner has
                      a lot to say about the development of consciousness--particularly the
                      development of the "consciousness soul" in our time....That can be a
                      long, full discussion in and of itself. But to bring that point
                      of "consciousness" and the "consciousness soul" round to this
                      discussion of "exorcizing tumors" is quite a task, one not to be
                      lightly undertaken, in my view.

                      Development of the Consciousness Soul involves, in my view, strenuous
                      exercises in experience of the I AM, the indestructible I AM, essence
                      of (Spiritual) Freedom (which is not entirely the same as worldly,
                      political freedom), attainment of that (Spiritual) Freedom (free
                      Thinking --marrying percept and concept, and exercizing the entry of
                      this Thinking into Feeling and Willing). This is a mouthful, and even
                      more, it is, for most, a lifetime, or lifetimes, of endeavour.

                      As for "tumors" and the exorcizing thereof, I say to , "Remove first
                      the mote in your own eye." In practical terms, the matter of war, and
                      of the current situation, where George W. Bush and company might well
                      escalate their attack on Iraq (they are already attacking, so I say
                      escalate), if this is seen by you or others as the act of "exorcizing
                      a tumor" in "full consciousness", well....As I said, "remove first
                      the mote in your own eye." --We--the U.S. government and
                      multinational corporations that profit from war--helped create Saddam
                      Hussein. The FACTS are that we funded him, just as we funded Osama
                      Bin Laden. Moreover, the mnaterialistic greed, sense of lack, and
                      fear of the other (alien, Muslim) practiced by many (not all, but
                      many) in the West (including Britain, U.S....) has reverberations
                      round the world, and so we in the West bear responsibility, AS DO
                      Muslims (including Saddam Hussein and Al Qaida and Bin Laden) who
                      practice murderous violence and blow up people. I do not support the
                      evil deeds and violence of the Muslims, just as I do not support the
                      evil deeds and violence of Christians, like Bush and Ashcroft, when
                      such as depleted uranium from the First Gulf War and sanctions and
                      such help (not entirely cause, but surely help) destroy Iraqi
                      children and people's lives. All--Muslim and Christian, those of the
                      East and those of the West--all are responsible. The tumor is a
                      worldwide tumor, not just over there somewhere for the "good guys" to
                      exorcize. The tumor is there and here. "Remove first the mote in your
                      own eye."

                      You continue:

                      > There is a time for well placed patriotism
                      > whether it be for the national collective
                      > or the personal one.


                      To continually remind us that we are on an anthroposophic list, there
                      is a world view that goes way beyond narrow, outmoded patriotism and
                      the "national collective". Just read, for example, the Apocalypse of
                      St. John lectures of Steiner to look at evolution and world
                      development. Patriotism is outmoded if one seeks a higher
                      consciousness and the fulfillment of Earth goals. Steiner reminds us
                      in those lectures (I refer to Steiner here, not as a blind follower,
                      but as one who seeks to live this)--reminds us that formations of
                      nation and race become anachronisms, as one develops the
                      consciousness soul and a deep Damascus like encounter with the I AM.
                      There is other work to be done than to fight Mr. Bush's so-
                      called "war on terrorism" for "homeland security" and other such
                      outmoded fascist understandings of the world.

                      We are called to a higher task. It would be great, as we look at
                      world events, **to discuss anthroposophy on this list**, such as
                      World History in Light of Anthroposophy, or Behind the Scenes of
                      External Happenings (both by Steiner), not to follow Steiner blindly,
                      but to examine the offerings and the relevance in our lives and
                      concerns today.

                      Go well,
                      elaine
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