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Re: [anthroposophy] 'racist' quotes?

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  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
    ... *******I ve been saying for many years now that it was impossible to rationally discuss race in the 20th century, because of Hitler and the Nazis. Now that
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 2, 2002
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      sarahwh@... writes:
      Hello,
      I discovered the following quotes from Steiner that I find a little disturbing, and wondered if Starman and others could explain in some kind of context:
      "[T]he representative people for the development of the consciousness soul, hence for what matters particularly in our age, is the Anglo-Saxon nation. The Anglo-Saxon people are those who through their whole organization are predisposed to develop the consciousness soul to a special degree." (Rudolf Steiner, Materialism and the Task of Anthroposophy, p. 195, Anthroposophic Press, 1987.)
      "If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will become increasingly dense if men do not arrive at a form of intelligence that is independent of blondness. Blond hair actually bestows intelligence.... It is indeed true that the more the fair individuals die out the more will the instinctive wisdom of humans vanish." (Rudolf Steiner, Health and Illness, p. 86, Anthroposophic Press, 1981.)
      thanks
      ¸..· ´¨¨))  -:¦:-
           ¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
         ((¸¸.·´  ..·´   -:¦:- Sarah
      -:¦:-    ((¸¸.·´*      


      *******I've been saying for many years now that it was impossible to rationally discuss race in the 20th century, because of Hitler and the Nazis.  Now that we're in the 21st, I wonder if we can finally start. I doubt it can be done among many people--- but race HAS an esoteric significance. Of course, as you know, these days it's required by the intolerant religion of the ruling paradigm that you say that an individual is an individual and equal to every other individual, and that it makes no difference if he's male or female, European or African, or what have you, and anyone who does notice differences is evil and has to be shouted down. This of course ignores what everybody knows from personal experience, that there are definite character traits of different nationalities, that the members of them generally show regardless of the individual.  The result of this Ahrimanic deception is that these obvious truths are only discussed privately, with the result that honest discussion of them is prohibited and therefore they can't be understood scientifically or rationally. Anyone who tries to do so is accused of unconsciously following stereotypes. So strong is this desire to be politically correct that a clairvoyant like Rudolf Steiner is assumed to have been doing the same thing, because it's unthinkable that he might have been telling the truth. But different parts of the human being ARE accentuated in the different races. To believe otherwise is to pursue a political ideal of "equality" so much that reality is obscured.

          As I say, I'm not sure we're ready to really talk about the occult side of these things as it can be found in the Edgar Cayce readings, Anthroposophy etc.. Perhaps it's better done outside of public discussion. The quotes above don't actually have to do with race, but with ethnicity, anyway. Anthroposophy does not hover in abstractions, but its pure ideas are brought down to sensible reality, for instance in recognizing how the different parts of the soul will be stronger in one type of people or another. A "folk" or people is not just an abstraction, but rather a folk spirit or folk soul, a being higher than a human being, lives in all the members of one. This is a reality which can be perceived, politically incorrect as that may be. Individuals by their karma will incarnate into this or that group so that they may use the abilities they will be born with. Rudolf Steiner could not have come anywhere except to the German people, for instance. What you've quoted here should be part of reflecting what it means to be an English speaking person, a Caucasian, etc. (Blond and red hair of course, like blue eyes, occur only in the Caucasian race.) Naturally, however, this subject cannot be scientifically examined so long as it is surrounded by political hysteria. It only comes up frequently because the enemies of Anthroposophy take these quotes and spread them far and wide to discredit Steiner. There are many truths that can only be understood properly on the path of initiation, and, when revealed to the unprepared and uninitiated, are bound to be misunderstood.

      Dr. Starman
      http://www.DrStarman.net
    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
      ... *******So was Charles Murray a few years ago when he published The Bell Curve , one chapter of which noted what any statistician knows, that different
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 2, 2002
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        rlloyd@... writes:
        >>Why is it we can recognize the unique qualities of certain breeds of animals

        and try hard to keep those bloodlines pure but are so terrified of recognizing
        the same principles within the human species?
        ....
        the northern races have greater Stanford-Binet
        ratings than do the darker races (the number of Mensa members decreases
        proportionately to the population the closer we get to the equator)
        But the lighter races lack the visceral and rhythmic qualities of their
        darker counterparts.
        Hey, don't kill me...I'm just the messenger.

        *******So was Charles Murray a few years ago when he published "The Bell Curve", one chapter of which noted what any statistician knows, that different groups of people show characteristic higher and lower scores on intelligence tests. But it was a politically incorrect thing to talk about publicly, and he paid dearly for doing so.
        Dr. Starman
        http://www.DrStarman.net
      • elaineupton2001
        Hello all of this thread begun by sarah (at least in its latest version). I m back from the holiday weekend and ready to roll. I appreciate soren s references
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 2, 2002
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          Hello all of this thread begun by sarah (at least in its latest
          version).

          I'm back from the holiday weekend and ready to roll. I appreciate
          soren's references to steiner on race in the PHilsophy of Freedom.
          And also,at the risk of shocking some, let me say that I quite agree
          with much of what starman said in reply on this topic. He talked
          about how it is difficult to discuss this topic without all the
          current hysteria that surrounds it. I agree. Also he mentioned how
          dealing in abstractions, instead of delving into the deeper esoteric
          matters of race, is not helpful, and again, I agree with him (you,
          starman).

          Yes, it may seem shocking, sarah, what steiner said about blonds and
          intelligence. Then if we look about in our western cultures (at least
          here in the U.S.), we see this cult of blondness, from Barbar Walters
          (a very rich and famous TV personality, who does not have naturally
          blond hair, but like many, dyes her hair in order, it seems, to
          appear more acceptable), and we have this whole Nazi business abotu
          Aryans and blond hair-blue eyes, and so certainly people can have a
          field day with that and those who wish can say that steiner is
          racist...., but that would be dealing in surfaces, abstractions, and
          such....

          What does blond really mean on a deeper, esoteric level, for example?
          That is the question. It is a mere distortion that Hitler and Nazis
          and TV personalities or perhaps Madonna make out of this blond
          thing.... There is something deeper that needs a quiet, devoted kind
          of attention, beyond the hysteria, beyond the media distortions and
          the fascist agenda. Anything can be perverted, at least on the
          surface...

          I feel quite certain that associating blondness with intelligence
          does not mean that only blond people are intelligent and that others,
          dark haired people are stupid, etc....Surely steiner, the man of vast
          wisdom, knew this, and if he didn't, well....that would be strange...
          In any case, one can look around and see that plenty of people with
          dark hair have intelligence. So, obviously we must be talking about
          something deeper here in this association of "blond"
          and "intelligence." There is a certain condition of evolution, and we
          evolve to a time when blondness appears and that brings a certain
          possibility into the world, just as the existence of dark haired
          peoples has brought certain possibilities into the world.

          Anyway, I think soren's posts are also right on, in noting that
          steiner says (in the Philosophy of Freedom, aka Philosopy of
          Spiritual activity) that we evolve beyond generic raciality. Also,
          sarah, if you want to read and get a broader view of what steienr
          said, there is another passage in the Apocalypse of St. John
          lectures, where steiner talks about the future not being about race,
          but about other groupings. "Blondness" no longer has to do with just
          race, but with a larger conception, just as do other qualities....

          This all takes some inner quiet study and cannot just be played
          around with in emails, in my opinion. So, if you/we are serious about
          this matter, it will take some quiet reverent study, deep observation
          and esoteric seeing, with LOVE and the broader view that LOVE for
          all beings affords.

          EAch human has a divine spark and all are worthy, regardless of skin
          color, hair color, etc. I hope that would go without saying, yet thre
          are some anthropops and enemies of anthropops who apparently do not
          experience this.

          Blessings,
          elaine

          --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
          > sarahwh@t... writes:
          > > Hello,
          > > I discovered the following quotes from Steiner that I find a
          little
          > > disturbing, and wondered if Starman and others could explain in
          some kind
          > > of context:
          > > "[T]he representative people for the development of the
          consciousness soul,
          > > hence for what matters particularly in our age, is the Anglo-
          Saxon nation.
          > > The Anglo-Saxon people are those who through their whole
          organization are
          > > predisposed to develop the consciousness soul to a special
          degree." (Rudolf
          > > Steiner, Materialism and the Task of Anthroposophy, p. 195,
          Anthroposophic
          > > Press, 1987.)
          > > "If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will
          become
          > > increasingly dense if men do not arrive at a form of intelligence
          that is
          > > independent of blondness. Blond hair actually bestows
          intelligence.... It
          > > is indeed true that the more the fair individuals die out the
          more will the
          > > instinctive wisdom of humans vanish." (Rudolf Steiner, Health and
          Illness,
          > > p. 86, Anthroposophic Press, 1981.)
          > > thanks
          > > ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-
          > > ¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
          > > ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sarah
          > > -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*
          > >
          >
          > *******I've been saying for many years now that it was impossible
          to
          > rationally discuss race in the 20th century, because of Hitler and
          the Nazis.
          > Now that we're in the 21st, I wonder if we can finally start. I
          doubt it can
          > be done among many people--- but race HAS an esoteric significance.
          Of
          > course, as you know, these days it's required by the intolerant
          religion of
          > the ruling paradigm that you say that an individual is an
          individual and
          > equal to every other individual, and that it makes no difference if
          he's male
          > or female, European or African, or what have you, and anyone who
          does notice
          > differences is evil and has to be shouted down. This of course
          ignores what
          > everybody knows from personal experience, that there are definite
          character
          > traits of different nationalities, that the members of them
          generally show
          > regardless of the individual. The result of this Ahrimanic
          deception is that
          > these obvious truths are only discussed privately, with the result
          that
          > honest discussion of them is prohibited and therefore they can't be
          > understood scientifically or rationally. Anyone who tries to do so
          is accused
          > of unconsciously following stereotypes. So strong is this desire to
          be
          > politically correct that a clairvoyant like Rudolf Steiner is
          assumed to have
          > been doing the same thing, because it's unthinkable that he might
          have been
          > telling the truth. But different parts of the human being ARE
          accentuated in
          > the different races. To believe otherwise is to pursue a political
          ideal of
          > "equality" so much that reality is obscured.
          >
          > As I say, I'm not sure we're ready to really talk about the
          occult side
          > of these things as it can be found in the Edgar Cayce readings,
          Anthroposophy
          > etc.. Perhaps it's better done outside of public discussion. The
          quotes above
          > don't actually have to do with race, but with ethnicity, anyway.
          > Anthroposophy does not hover in abstractions, but its pure ideas
          are brought
          > down to sensible reality, for instance in recognizing how the
          different parts
          > of the soul will be stronger in one type of people or another.
          A "folk" or
          > people is not just an abstraction, but rather a folk spirit or folk
          soul, a
          > being higher than a human being, lives in all the members of one.
          This is a
          > reality which can be perceived, politically incorrect as that may
          be.
          > Individuals by their karma will incarnate into this or that group
          so that
          > they may use the abilities they will be born with. Rudolf Steiner
          could not
          > have come anywhere except to the German people, for instance. What
          you've
          > quoted here should be part of reflecting what it means to be an
          English
          > speaking person, a Caucasian, etc. (Blond and red hair of course,
          like blue
          > eyes, occur only in the Caucasian race.) Naturally, however, this
          subject
          > cannot be scientifically examined so long as it is surrounded by
          political
          > hysteria. It only comes up frequently because the enemies of
          Anthroposophy
          > take these quotes and spread them far and wide to discredit
          Steiner. There
          > are many truths that can only be understood properly on the path of
          > initiation, and, when revealed to the unprepared and uninitiated,
          are bound
          > to be misunderstood.
          >
          > Dr. Starman
          > http://www.DrStarman.net
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