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Re: [anthroposophy] 'racist' quotes?

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  • LilOleMiss
    Hi, Sarah, Dr. Starman knows far more than I about this matter. When one reads Steiner s teachings about the various races, this is not racist as the word
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 28, 2002
       
      Hi, Sarah,
       
      Dr. Starman knows far more than I about this matter. When one reads Steiner's teachings about the various races, this is not "racist" as the word has come to be interpreted in these days of "Political Correctness" but refers to the many races of mankind existing on the physical early planet, such as the red race, the brown race, the white race, the yellow race or the black race, etc.. It is a distinct fact that some people are born with blue eyes [mine are blue], some with brown, black, hazel, yellowish or green eyes, just as some people are born with blonde hair, or brown, red, chestnut, auburn, black or brown/black hair as I was. All these various colors bring with them certain definite mental, psychic and physical talents and abilities no one race alone at this time in evolution is able to give to the world, but put all together upon the physical plane as we ourselves chose before incarnating, mankind as a whole is able to cover all spectrums of his missions while working together in unison, if he would stop warring for all the dumb reasons used as excuses. On this note, last week I posted to this list in full Osama Bin Laden's long taped speech [which Americans overall received little knowledge of] giving his reasons for destroying America and Americans, allowing enormous insight into the mental and psychic workings of one denying his own self-chosen racial talents; it is valuable in that it clearly illustrates how one may present an excellent graphic view into not only an extremely intelligent mind but one deranged by various psychic anomolies such as hatred, revenge, etc., etc.. It is an excellent graphic view into a dark twisted realm not conducive in any way to promote that which mankind must promote for his own benefit as well as for the Spiritual World.
       
      It may be in his "Lectures to Workmen" where you'll find more of Steiner's teachings on these matters, and how, for example, one day there will be only one race of people consisting of a combined mixture of all the current races forming a whole. Steiner mentions something to the effect that those with blonde hair and blue eyes lack certain strengths some of the other races have, and vice versa on down the line, but put together as a whole, mankind overall is able to balance out all the pluses and minuses to form the ability to work in a right way for the benefit of all of mankind and the entire Universe. In Steiner's "Mission of the Folk Souls," lectures given in Christiania (Oslo) 1910, one finds a very great deal regarding the various roles each race is best able to accomplish for the benefit of all, each in his own special way using those gifts received in order to fulfill his mission(s). Something else we should always keep in mind is the fact that no one race at this time is able to or is even capable of fulfilling the whole of mankind's missions on earth. During our sojourn through the Spiritual World between death and rebirth, we realize what we must accomplish as individuals during the life between birth and death, and we choose for ourselves accordingly and along with our karma for very necessary reasons.
       
      Steiner's *Materialism and the Task of Anthroposophy* is one of those works so wonderfully full of information touching on a tremendous number of varied points. I find it exciting for not only what he says there, but for what he only hints at, since over the years I've found when I come across a bare mention of a given point I'm sure to find an entire volume elsewhere explaining just that one small hint! 
       
      I'm very glad you brought this subject to our attention, but I find something else in your "out of context" statements of Steiner's I'll have to find and thoroughly review as I can in order to "have the whole view," so to say. And that is your last quoted sentence or partial sentence (?)
      regarding the "vanishing" of "the instinctive wisdom of humans." Instinctive wisdom is not consciously acquired knowledge, IMHO. The animals have instinctive wisdom as do some  "young" human souls to a larger extent than the "old" souls, but in order to acquire the Consciousness Soul, and therefore the current mission, it seems to me mankind must have evolved to a higher stage of knowledge than mere instinct.
       
      As one friend put it, if you don't like your coloring in this life, just intensely dislike one of the other races, and you're sure to reincarnate into that one.
       
      Blessings,
      Sheila
      Hello,

      I discovered the following quotes from Steiner that I find a little disturbing, and wondered if Starman and others could explain in some kind of context:

      "[T]he representative people for the development of the consciousness soul, hence for what matters particularly in our age, is the Anglo-Saxon nation. The Anglo-Saxon people are those who through their whole organization are predisposed to develop the consciousness soul to a special degree." (Rudolf Steiner,Materialism and the Task of Anthroposophy, p. 195, Anthroposophic Press, 1987.)
      "If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will become increasingly dense if men do not arrive at a form of intelligence that is independent of blondness. Blond hair actually bestows intelligence.... It is indeed true that the more the fair individuals die out the more will the instinctive wisdom of humans vanish." (Rudolf Steiner,Health and Illness, p. 86, Anthroposophic Press, 1981.)

      thanks

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         ((¸¸.·´  ..·´   -:¦:- Sarah
      -:¦:-    ((¸¸.·´*      
       

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    • Br. Ron
      I think this Steiner quote is only disturbing to those aspects of ourselves that have fallen prey to political correctness and other over reactions to the
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 28, 2002
         
         
         
        I think this Steiner quote is only disturbing to those aspects of ourselves that
        have fallen prey to 'political correctness' and other over reactions to the
        discoveries made about human genetics.
         
        Hitler was a bad guy but not entirely inaccurate.
         
        Multiculturalism is fine as long as we don't try to gloss over the fact
        that even the most liberal scientists must confess to the deterministic
        qualities of DNA.
         
        Why is it we can recognize the unique qualities of certain breeds of animals
        and try hard to keep those bloodlines pure but are so terrified of recognizing
        the same principles within the human species?
         
        Let's face it. Breeding a miniature poodle with a St. Bernard obviously
        effects the abilities of the offspring to get those kegs up those Alpine
        peaks to those stranded climbers. Nor do we add English Bulldogs to
        the racing roster at the dog track.
         
        Likewise, with us god-monkeys, the northern races have greater Stanford-Binet
        ratings than do the darker races (the number of Mensa members decreases
        proportionately to the population the closer we get to the equator)
         
        But the lighter races lack the visceral and rhythmic qualities of their
        darker counterparts.
         
         
        Hey, don't kill me...I'm just the messenger.
         
         
         
        Br. Ron
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
        From: Sarah
        I discovered the following quotes from Steiner that I find a little disturbing, and wondered if Starman
        and others could explain in some kind of context:

        "[T]he representative people for the development of the consciousness soul, hence for what matters particularly in our age, is the Anglo-Saxon nation. The Anglo-Saxon people are those who through their whole organization are predisposed to develop the consciousness soul to a special degree." (Rudolf Steiner,Materialism and the Task of Anthroposophy, p. 195, Anthroposophic Press, 1987.)
        "If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will become increasingly dense if men do not arrive at a form of intelligence that is independent of blondness. Blond hair actually bestows intelligence.... It is indeed true that the more the fair individuals die out the more will the instinctive wisdom of humans vanish." (Rudolf Steiner,Health and Illness, p. 86, Anthroposophic Press, 1981.)

        thanks

        ¸..· ´¨¨))  -:¦:-
             ¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
           ((¸¸.·´  ..·´   -:¦:- Sarah
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         

        -:¦:-    ((¸¸.·´*      


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      • Br. Ron
        Yes Andrea...I agree that intent is everything. It is possible to APPRECIATE our differences instead of trying to make us all the same like many from the left
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 28, 2002
           
          Yes Andrea...I agree that intent is everything.
           
          It is possible to APPRECIATE our differences
          instead of trying to make us all the same like
          many from the left seek to do....or HATE our differences
          like many from the right seek to do.
           
          Steiner was not a racist. But he acknowledged the
          differences in the races.
           
          That is the key, it seems to me.
           
          LVX
           
          BR
           
           
           
           
           
           
          Dear Ron,
          It seems to me that in a topic like this what matters lies not in "political correctness" or in the "discoveries" in human genetics.
          Those discoveries for instance ,as"pure facts", are not able to speak to us : everything here depends from the mind framework or weltanschauung or concepts we use to understand the "facts"., so in itself they aren't able to demonstrate anything.
           So Hitler giving life to a marriage between Darwin and Black Magic was able to open the door of the abyss, while Steiner  lightin up Darwinism from the higher possible spiritual standpoint opened the road to Michael-Christ.
          The core lies , basically, in two different topics.
          First of all, if something springs from an occult-clairvoyant source we should be able to manage it at the same level or, somehow, along the path the leads to it.  So the worst thing possible here is to estrapolate quotes and reference like "scattering  out confetti at a wedding".
           Most of all   l know, as RS's disciple, that .  in April 2000, there was very easy for  Info3  German magazine - www.info3.de to demonstrate that Steiner was not racist or antisemitic at all. 
          Second- but basic- what really matters here is our absence of prejudice.
           Since we know, as Spiritual disciples, that the Spirit has no "nama " and no "rupa" and the Soul and the Body are His dresses here on the Earth when we encounter the "other" we have to strive to perceive this Spirit-Logos-I AM-I substance instead , for instance, of a soul-body mask capable to fire our prejudices, especially if we meet for example  (I  post from   Rome ) , a "Rom" or a "Balkanian" or a "Maroquain"
          What a  hard task, people!!
           
          Andrea
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Br. Ron
          Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 4:24 PM
          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] 'racist' quotes?

           
           
           
          I think this Steiner quote is only disturbing to those aspects of ourselves that
          have fallen prey to 'political correctness' and other over reactions to the
          discoveries made about human genetics.
           
          Hitler was a bad guy but not entirely inaccurate.
           
          Multiculturalism is fine as long as we don't try to gloss over the fact
          that even the most liberal scientists must confess to the deterministic
          qualities of DNA.
           
          Why is it we can recognize the unique qualities of certain breeds of animals
          and try hard to keep those bloodlines pure but are so terrified of recognizing
          the same principles within the human species?
           
          Let's face it. Breeding a miniature poodle with a St. Bernard obviously
          effects the abilities of the offspring to get those kegs up those Alpine
          peaks to those stranded climbers. Nor do we add English Bulldogs to
          the racing roster at the dog track.
           
          Likewise, with us god-monkeys, the northern races have greater Stanford-Binet
          ratings than do the darker races (the number of Mensa members decreases
          proportionately to the population the closer we get to the equator)
           
          But the lighter races lack the visceral and rhythmic qualities of their
          darker counterparts.
           
           
          Hey, don't kill me...I'm just the messenger.
           
           
           
          Br. Ron
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
          From: Sarah
          I discovered the following quotes from Steiner that I find a little disturbing, and wondered if Starman
          and others could explain in some kind of context:

          "[T]he representative people for the development of the consciousness soul, hence for what matters particularly in our age, is the Anglo-Saxon nation. The Anglo-Saxon people are those who through their whole organization are predisposed to develop the consciousness soul to a special degree." (Rudolf Steiner,Materialism and the Task of Anthroposophy, p. 195, Anthroposophic Press, 1987.)
          "If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will become increasingly dense if men do not arrive at a form of intelligence that is independent of blondness. Blond hair actually bestows intelligence.... It is indeed true that the more the fair individuals die out the more will the instinctive wisdom of humans vanish." (Rudolf Steiner,Health and Illness, p. 86, Anthroposophic Press, 1981.)

          thanks

          ¸..· ´¨¨))  -:¦:-
               ¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
             ((¸¸.·´  ..·´   -:¦:- Sarah
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           

          -:¦:-    ((¸¸.·´*      


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        • Sören Groth
          ... ourselves that ... to the ... Well about the quotes... I tend to see it as Steiner talks about two situations... an evolutionary process tied to
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 28, 2002
            --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Br. Ron" <rlloyd@d...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > I think this Steiner quote is only disturbing to those aspects of
            ourselves that
            > have fallen prey to 'political correctness' and other over reactions
            to the
            > discoveries made about human genetics.

            Well about the quotes... I tend to see it as Steiner talks about two
            situations... an evolutionary process tied to blood/nations/groups as
            part of human evolution, untill a point where these factors through
            this evolution seize to have any importance... He pretty clearly
            outlines this in "Freedom of Philosophy" .. And the whole matter would
            be nothing controversial, if it wasn't for Hitler distorting the
            facts.. Which very well may have been the whole purpose with Nazism,
            to me the barbarism there only proves that the facts Steiner presents
            belongs to the past, and that they today is out of order -
            Just as marxism-leninism as occult resistanceforce had prupose to
            distort the brootherhoodideal ...

            Sören
          • Sören Groth
            ... Well I quote Mr. Steiner: A racial group is a totality and all the people belonging to it bear the characteristic features that are inherent in the nature
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 28, 2002
              --- In anthroposophy@y..., Sören Groth <sgroth@b...> wrote:

              > this evolution seize to have any importance... He pretty clearly
              > outlines this in "Freedom of Philosophy" ..

              Well I quote Mr. Steiner:


              "A racial group is a totality and all the people belonging to it bear
              the characteristic features that are inherent in the nature of the
              group. How the single member is constituted, and how he will behave,
              are determined by the character of the racial group. Therefore the
              physiognomy and conduct of the individual have something generic about
              them. If we ask why some particular thing about a man is like this or
              like that, we are referred back from the individual to the genus. The
              genus explains why something in the individual appears in the form we
              observe.

              Man, however, makes himself free from what is generic. For the generic
              features of the human race, when rightly understood, do not restrict
              man's freedom, and should not artificially be made to do so. A man
              develops qualities and activities of his own, and the basis for these
              we can seek only in the man himself. What is generic in him serves
              only as a medium in which to express his own individual being. He uses
              as a foundation the characteristics that nature has given him, and to
              these he gives a form appropriate to his own being. If we seek in the
              generic laws the reasons for an expression of this being, we seek in
              vain."

              Somehow this is to liberate man from the generic preconditions so
              evident in the animal kingdom...

              Sören Groth
            • Br. Ron
              Hi Soren I m assuming that what is meant by generic below is really meant to be genetic. I don t see us ever being free of genetic influence. It would be
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 28, 2002
                 
                Hi Soren
                 
                I'm assuming that what is meant by 'generic'
                below is really meant to be 'genetic.'
                 
                I don't see us ever being free of genetic influence.
                It would be true if we were simply "fallen angels"
                determined only by Spirit but we are also "rising apes"
                determined by Matter as well.
                 
                (This is also symbolized by the 'interpenetrating tetrahedrons'
                that we illustrated and discussed earlier)
                 
                On one level we are determined by Spirit only.
                On another level we are determined by Matter only.
                Both of these 'opposing' realities are true, it seems
                 
                The Risen Christ is meant to exemplify the center (Tiphareth)
                where the two meet and are held in perfect suspended
                equilibrium. (The Hanged Man)
                 
                The Once and Future King is both the 'Son of God'
                and the 'Son of Man.'
                 
                Whatcha think?
                 
                 
                 
                BR
                 
                 
                 
                 
                From: "Sören Groth" <sgroth@...>
                Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 9:21 AM
                Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: 'racist' quotes?

                --- In anthroposophy@y..., Sören Groth <sgroth@b...> wrote:

                >
                this evolution seize to have any importance... He pretty clearly
                >
                outlines this in "Freedom of Philosophy" ..

                Well I quote Mr. Steiner:


                "A racial group is a totality and all the people belonging to it bear
                the characteristic features that are inherent in the nature of the
                group. How the single member is constituted, and how he will behave,
                are determined by the character of the racial group. Therefore the
                physiognomy and conduct of the individual have something generic about
                them. If we ask why some particular thing about a man is like this or
                like that, we are referred back from the individual to the genus. The
                genus explains why something in the individual appears in the form we
                observe.

                Man, however, makes himself free from what is generic. For the generic
                features of the human race, when rightly understood, do not restrict
                man's freedom, and should not artificially be made to do so. A man
                develops qualities and activities of his own, and the basis for these
                we can seek only in the man himself. What is generic in him serves
                only as a medium in which to express his own individual being. He uses
                as a foundation the characteristics that nature has given him, and to
                these he gives a form appropriate to his own being. If we seek in the
                generic laws the reasons for an expression of this being, we seek in
                vain."

                Somehow this is to liberate man from the generic preconditions so
                evident in the animal kingdom...

                Sören Groth



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              • Sören Groth
                ... Partly generic=genetic... we have to take into consideration the present knowledge which Steiner use to express himself... He talks to paeople in his time,
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 28, 2002
                  --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Br. Ron" <rlloyd@d...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Soren
                  >
                  > I'm assuming that what is meant by 'generic'
                  > below is really meant to be 'genetic.'

                  Partly generic=genetic... we have to take into consideration the
                  present knowledge which Steiner use to express himself... He talks to
                  paeople in his time, with the knowledge accesible then...
                  If we will get beyond prejudices, we have to look at the scientific
                  basis, not our "ideas" about other people .. and then what Steiner
                  called "race" like the anglo-saxon people, becomes a complex of
                  several layers, which together constitute the "generic" expression
                  "anglo-saxon people" -

                  A) The genetic .. well people in Northern Europe have genetically had
                  a certain characteristica - even before they became "aryan" they were
                  blue and blond .. these characteristica, which appears to us as outer
                  "race" of a "people" in appearance, and therefore seem to be most
                  important, is mainly based on the locality and nothing else... It's a
                  bodily adaption to the surrounding environment.... If you relaocated
                  all of africa to europe and veice versa.. it would probably over a
                  span of time be that the "african" genes changed influenced by the
                  locality into "european" genes and vice versa ...
                  ie genetically schizophrenia is ppresent among 1% of any population
                  everywhere on earth - but how it express itself is not determined by
                  the genes.. In rational societies the cultural role is to be "sick"
                  and then they are "sick" .. among Eskimoes a guy seeing strange things
                  and hearing voices is a "shaman" and then they become "shamans" - an
                  asset instead of a burden for the cultural complex (a thesis I have
                  not proven yet)
                  B) The blood - where there is three dominant bloodtypes, one more
                  dominant than the other two in different areas, but all present
                  everywhere ..
                  C) Language .. Which is the main carrier of the peoplesgenious.. The
                  quote about development of the soul consciousness in anglo-saxon
                  "people" I interpretate as mainly referring to the linguistic "life"
                  in anglo-saxon
                  D) Culture .. a complex built upon the three above mentioned factors

                  E) and an individual human being can never be determined from any of
                  these - the knowledge is trancending -
                  My old statement - nor segretation nor assimilation - but integration
                  through individuality

                  Sören
                • foncteur
                  Hi, The first quote is not racist, because : 1. Anglo-saxons are not a physical race , but a cultural and linguistic group (hey, I m not anglo-saxon !!)...
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 2, 2002
                    Hi,
                    The first quote is not racist, because :
                    1. Anglo-saxons are not a "physical race", but a cultural and
                    linguistic group (hey, I'm not anglo-saxon !!)... and if you admit a
                    larger definition of racism, well you can say that all monotheist
                    religions are racist, because they claim that their belief (in only
                    one God) is "better" than the beliefs of polytheist religions.
                    2. Steiner does not claim that Anglo-Saxons are "superior" to other
                    people, but that they "represent", for a particular period of time
                    (not for ever) the development of "consciousness soul" for all
                    mankind.
                    Go and ask to the real racist (they exist, in Europe, america,
                    Israel, and even in arabic countries of Africa !) if the notion
                    of "consciousness soul" says something to them...i doubt you have a
                    positive answer.
                    The second quote, about "blond hair" is more "disturbing" (for those
                    which can be disturbed by this kind of things). I shall not try to
                    escape and shall say you the following things:
                    1.Steiner is not God,not even a Guru, he can say false things, or
                    things which have no sense, or things that I cannot give sense
                    to...and anthroposophy is not a cult, or a sect, or a religion. Read
                    Kant and Hegel about African people...
                    2. to say that "blond hair" bestows intelligence does not mean
                    that "non blonds" are "inferior"..intelligence (analytic
                    intelligence) is not all.
                    3 from the works of Georg Kuhlewind and others, i guess that we must
                    be very careful with the interpretation (hermeneutics) of the texts
                    who expose anthoroposophicla experience with "images" (and colours
                    are images)
                    4. if this is racism, then the majority of "white people" are also
                    victims of this racism : because only a minority have blond hair and
                    blue eyes
                    5. there is also an "anti-blond" racism : see those horrible "blond
                    jokes" on Internet about blond women , made doubtlessly by men who
                    are attracted by blond girls but do not succeed to have them in their
                    bed
                    6. My hair is not blond, my eyes are not blue, but I love so much
                    blond women with blue eyes...and you know what ? none of those blonds
                    godesses never felle in love for me ! but this is not a sufficient
                    reason for me to laugh at those horrible "blond jokes". I say to
                    blond women : I love you and I respect you
                    7. Hitler was not blond.
                    Oh sorry...I should like to say plenty more, but my chief, a bright
                    blond woman, calls me for work..hey, she's the boss !!




                    --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Sarah" <sarahwh@t...> wrote:
                    > Hello,
                    >
                    > I discovered the following quotes from Steiner that I find a little
                    disturbing, and wondered if Starman and others could explain in some
                    kind of context:
                    >
                    > "[T]he representative people for the development of the
                    consciousness soul, hence for what matters particularly in our age,
                    is the Anglo-Saxon nation. The Anglo-Saxon people are those who
                    through their whole organization are predisposed to develop the
                    consciousness soul to a special degree." (Rudolf Steiner, Materialism
                    and the Task of Anthroposophy, p. 195, Anthroposophic Press, 1987.)
                    > "If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will
                    become increasingly dense if men do not arrive at a form of
                    intelligence that is independent of blondness. Blond hair actually
                    bestows intelligence.... It is indeed true that the more the fair
                    individuals die out the more will the instinctive wisdom of humans
                    vanish." (Rudolf Steiner, Health and Illness, p. 86, Anthroposophic
                    Press, 1981.)
                    >
                    > thanks
                    >
                    > ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-
                    > ¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
                    > ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sarah
                    > -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*
                  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                    ... *******I ve been saying for many years now that it was impossible to rationally discuss race in the 20th century, because of Hitler and the Nazis. Now that
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 2, 2002
                      sarahwh@... writes:
                      Hello,
                      I discovered the following quotes from Steiner that I find a little disturbing, and wondered if Starman and others could explain in some kind of context:
                      "[T]he representative people for the development of the consciousness soul, hence for what matters particularly in our age, is the Anglo-Saxon nation. The Anglo-Saxon people are those who through their whole organization are predisposed to develop the consciousness soul to a special degree." (Rudolf Steiner, Materialism and the Task of Anthroposophy, p. 195, Anthroposophic Press, 1987.)
                      "If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will become increasingly dense if men do not arrive at a form of intelligence that is independent of blondness. Blond hair actually bestows intelligence.... It is indeed true that the more the fair individuals die out the more will the instinctive wisdom of humans vanish." (Rudolf Steiner, Health and Illness, p. 86, Anthroposophic Press, 1981.)
                      thanks
                      ¸..· ´¨¨))  -:¦:-
                           ¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
                         ((¸¸.·´  ..·´   -:¦:- Sarah
                      -:¦:-    ((¸¸.·´*      


                      *******I've been saying for many years now that it was impossible to rationally discuss race in the 20th century, because of Hitler and the Nazis.  Now that we're in the 21st, I wonder if we can finally start. I doubt it can be done among many people--- but race HAS an esoteric significance. Of course, as you know, these days it's required by the intolerant religion of the ruling paradigm that you say that an individual is an individual and equal to every other individual, and that it makes no difference if he's male or female, European or African, or what have you, and anyone who does notice differences is evil and has to be shouted down. This of course ignores what everybody knows from personal experience, that there are definite character traits of different nationalities, that the members of them generally show regardless of the individual.  The result of this Ahrimanic deception is that these obvious truths are only discussed privately, with the result that honest discussion of them is prohibited and therefore they can't be understood scientifically or rationally. Anyone who tries to do so is accused of unconsciously following stereotypes. So strong is this desire to be politically correct that a clairvoyant like Rudolf Steiner is assumed to have been doing the same thing, because it's unthinkable that he might have been telling the truth. But different parts of the human being ARE accentuated in the different races. To believe otherwise is to pursue a political ideal of "equality" so much that reality is obscured.

                          As I say, I'm not sure we're ready to really talk about the occult side of these things as it can be found in the Edgar Cayce readings, Anthroposophy etc.. Perhaps it's better done outside of public discussion. The quotes above don't actually have to do with race, but with ethnicity, anyway. Anthroposophy does not hover in abstractions, but its pure ideas are brought down to sensible reality, for instance in recognizing how the different parts of the soul will be stronger in one type of people or another. A "folk" or people is not just an abstraction, but rather a folk spirit or folk soul, a being higher than a human being, lives in all the members of one. This is a reality which can be perceived, politically incorrect as that may be. Individuals by their karma will incarnate into this or that group so that they may use the abilities they will be born with. Rudolf Steiner could not have come anywhere except to the German people, for instance. What you've quoted here should be part of reflecting what it means to be an English speaking person, a Caucasian, etc. (Blond and red hair of course, like blue eyes, occur only in the Caucasian race.) Naturally, however, this subject cannot be scientifically examined so long as it is surrounded by political hysteria. It only comes up frequently because the enemies of Anthroposophy take these quotes and spread them far and wide to discredit Steiner. There are many truths that can only be understood properly on the path of initiation, and, when revealed to the unprepared and uninitiated, are bound to be misunderstood.

                      Dr. Starman
                      http://www.DrStarman.net
                    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                      ... *******So was Charles Murray a few years ago when he published The Bell Curve , one chapter of which noted what any statistician knows, that different
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 2, 2002
                        rlloyd@... writes:
                        >>Why is it we can recognize the unique qualities of certain breeds of animals

                        and try hard to keep those bloodlines pure but are so terrified of recognizing
                        the same principles within the human species?
                        ....
                        the northern races have greater Stanford-Binet
                        ratings than do the darker races (the number of Mensa members decreases
                        proportionately to the population the closer we get to the equator)
                        But the lighter races lack the visceral and rhythmic qualities of their
                        darker counterparts.
                        Hey, don't kill me...I'm just the messenger.

                        *******So was Charles Murray a few years ago when he published "The Bell Curve", one chapter of which noted what any statistician knows, that different groups of people show characteristic higher and lower scores on intelligence tests. But it was a politically incorrect thing to talk about publicly, and he paid dearly for doing so.
                        Dr. Starman
                        http://www.DrStarman.net
                      • elaineupton2001
                        Hello all of this thread begun by sarah (at least in its latest version). I m back from the holiday weekend and ready to roll. I appreciate soren s references
                        Message 11 of 12 , Dec 2, 2002
                          Hello all of this thread begun by sarah (at least in its latest
                          version).

                          I'm back from the holiday weekend and ready to roll. I appreciate
                          soren's references to steiner on race in the PHilsophy of Freedom.
                          And also,at the risk of shocking some, let me say that I quite agree
                          with much of what starman said in reply on this topic. He talked
                          about how it is difficult to discuss this topic without all the
                          current hysteria that surrounds it. I agree. Also he mentioned how
                          dealing in abstractions, instead of delving into the deeper esoteric
                          matters of race, is not helpful, and again, I agree with him (you,
                          starman).

                          Yes, it may seem shocking, sarah, what steiner said about blonds and
                          intelligence. Then if we look about in our western cultures (at least
                          here in the U.S.), we see this cult of blondness, from Barbar Walters
                          (a very rich and famous TV personality, who does not have naturally
                          blond hair, but like many, dyes her hair in order, it seems, to
                          appear more acceptable), and we have this whole Nazi business abotu
                          Aryans and blond hair-blue eyes, and so certainly people can have a
                          field day with that and those who wish can say that steiner is
                          racist...., but that would be dealing in surfaces, abstractions, and
                          such....

                          What does blond really mean on a deeper, esoteric level, for example?
                          That is the question. It is a mere distortion that Hitler and Nazis
                          and TV personalities or perhaps Madonna make out of this blond
                          thing.... There is something deeper that needs a quiet, devoted kind
                          of attention, beyond the hysteria, beyond the media distortions and
                          the fascist agenda. Anything can be perverted, at least on the
                          surface...

                          I feel quite certain that associating blondness with intelligence
                          does not mean that only blond people are intelligent and that others,
                          dark haired people are stupid, etc....Surely steiner, the man of vast
                          wisdom, knew this, and if he didn't, well....that would be strange...
                          In any case, one can look around and see that plenty of people with
                          dark hair have intelligence. So, obviously we must be talking about
                          something deeper here in this association of "blond"
                          and "intelligence." There is a certain condition of evolution, and we
                          evolve to a time when blondness appears and that brings a certain
                          possibility into the world, just as the existence of dark haired
                          peoples has brought certain possibilities into the world.

                          Anyway, I think soren's posts are also right on, in noting that
                          steiner says (in the Philosophy of Freedom, aka Philosopy of
                          Spiritual activity) that we evolve beyond generic raciality. Also,
                          sarah, if you want to read and get a broader view of what steienr
                          said, there is another passage in the Apocalypse of St. John
                          lectures, where steiner talks about the future not being about race,
                          but about other groupings. "Blondness" no longer has to do with just
                          race, but with a larger conception, just as do other qualities....

                          This all takes some inner quiet study and cannot just be played
                          around with in emails, in my opinion. So, if you/we are serious about
                          this matter, it will take some quiet reverent study, deep observation
                          and esoteric seeing, with LOVE and the broader view that LOVE for
                          all beings affords.

                          EAch human has a divine spark and all are worthy, regardless of skin
                          color, hair color, etc. I hope that would go without saying, yet thre
                          are some anthropops and enemies of anthropops who apparently do not
                          experience this.

                          Blessings,
                          elaine

                          --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                          > sarahwh@t... writes:
                          > > Hello,
                          > > I discovered the following quotes from Steiner that I find a
                          little
                          > > disturbing, and wondered if Starman and others could explain in
                          some kind
                          > > of context:
                          > > "[T]he representative people for the development of the
                          consciousness soul,
                          > > hence for what matters particularly in our age, is the Anglo-
                          Saxon nation.
                          > > The Anglo-Saxon people are those who through their whole
                          organization are
                          > > predisposed to develop the consciousness soul to a special
                          degree." (Rudolf
                          > > Steiner, Materialism and the Task of Anthroposophy, p. 195,
                          Anthroposophic
                          > > Press, 1987.)
                          > > "If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will
                          become
                          > > increasingly dense if men do not arrive at a form of intelligence
                          that is
                          > > independent of blondness. Blond hair actually bestows
                          intelligence.... It
                          > > is indeed true that the more the fair individuals die out the
                          more will the
                          > > instinctive wisdom of humans vanish." (Rudolf Steiner, Health and
                          Illness,
                          > > p. 86, Anthroposophic Press, 1981.)
                          > > thanks
                          > > ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-
                          > > ¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
                          > > ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sarah
                          > > -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*
                          > >
                          >
                          > *******I've been saying for many years now that it was impossible
                          to
                          > rationally discuss race in the 20th century, because of Hitler and
                          the Nazis.
                          > Now that we're in the 21st, I wonder if we can finally start. I
                          doubt it can
                          > be done among many people--- but race HAS an esoteric significance.
                          Of
                          > course, as you know, these days it's required by the intolerant
                          religion of
                          > the ruling paradigm that you say that an individual is an
                          individual and
                          > equal to every other individual, and that it makes no difference if
                          he's male
                          > or female, European or African, or what have you, and anyone who
                          does notice
                          > differences is evil and has to be shouted down. This of course
                          ignores what
                          > everybody knows from personal experience, that there are definite
                          character
                          > traits of different nationalities, that the members of them
                          generally show
                          > regardless of the individual. The result of this Ahrimanic
                          deception is that
                          > these obvious truths are only discussed privately, with the result
                          that
                          > honest discussion of them is prohibited and therefore they can't be
                          > understood scientifically or rationally. Anyone who tries to do so
                          is accused
                          > of unconsciously following stereotypes. So strong is this desire to
                          be
                          > politically correct that a clairvoyant like Rudolf Steiner is
                          assumed to have
                          > been doing the same thing, because it's unthinkable that he might
                          have been
                          > telling the truth. But different parts of the human being ARE
                          accentuated in
                          > the different races. To believe otherwise is to pursue a political
                          ideal of
                          > "equality" so much that reality is obscured.
                          >
                          > As I say, I'm not sure we're ready to really talk about the
                          occult side
                          > of these things as it can be found in the Edgar Cayce readings,
                          Anthroposophy
                          > etc.. Perhaps it's better done outside of public discussion. The
                          quotes above
                          > don't actually have to do with race, but with ethnicity, anyway.
                          > Anthroposophy does not hover in abstractions, but its pure ideas
                          are brought
                          > down to sensible reality, for instance in recognizing how the
                          different parts
                          > of the soul will be stronger in one type of people or another.
                          A "folk" or
                          > people is not just an abstraction, but rather a folk spirit or folk
                          soul, a
                          > being higher than a human being, lives in all the members of one.
                          This is a
                          > reality which can be perceived, politically incorrect as that may
                          be.
                          > Individuals by their karma will incarnate into this or that group
                          so that
                          > they may use the abilities they will be born with. Rudolf Steiner
                          could not
                          > have come anywhere except to the German people, for instance. What
                          you've
                          > quoted here should be part of reflecting what it means to be an
                          English
                          > speaking person, a Caucasian, etc. (Blond and red hair of course,
                          like blue
                          > eyes, occur only in the Caucasian race.) Naturally, however, this
                          subject
                          > cannot be scientifically examined so long as it is surrounded by
                          political
                          > hysteria. It only comes up frequently because the enemies of
                          Anthroposophy
                          > take these quotes and spread them far and wide to discredit
                          Steiner. There
                          > are many truths that can only be understood properly on the path of
                          > initiation, and, when revealed to the unprepared and uninitiated,
                          are bound
                          > to be misunderstood.
                          >
                          > Dr. Starman
                          > http://www.DrStarman.net
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