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transformation

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  • Sarah Cherry
    ... No, I don t mind saying at all. I am in the USA, near Nashville, Tennessee I am a graphic artist working for the Saturn Corporation, really as much of a
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 3, 2000
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      >From: "elaine upton" <elaineupton@...>
      >
      >Hello again today, Sarah, and to all.
      >
      >Sarah, where are you--in which city or town, if you don't mind saying?

      No, I don't mind saying at all. I am in the USA, near Nashville,
      Tennessee I am a graphic artist working for the Saturn Corporation,
      really as much of a geek-goddess as artist, being network-nanny to
      our small artist computer network .

      I'd like to comment on the issue of the emotion vs objectivity. A
      person can only work on a lower member of the individuality through a
      higher member. Therefore, to transform the lower senses, or parts of
      the physical, astral and etheric bodies, the work must be done
      through the ego. In addition, all of these emotions have the mission
      of being our teachers if we involve ourselves in the work of
      transforming them. For example, in "Metamorphosis of the Soul",
      Steiner says the mission of anger is to burn selfishness from the
      individual. For this reason, we work with Spiritual Science to imbue
      our feeling with thinking before it's directed toward the world as
      will. As I reread this paragraph, it sounded quite mechanical and
      intellectual, so I'll summarize with in a more human way. Getting
      really, really mad at another person can be anything from destructive
      to transforming. It's helpful to remember, as my grandmother would
      say, "if you can spot it, you got it," thus revealing just where and
      in whom transformation must take place.

      BTW, Elaine, like Demetra, I thought your translation of " Ninth
      Duino Elegy" was beautiful.

      Wishing strength and peace to all,

      Sarah
    • John Massengale
      ... Sarah, Elaine -- The following is NOT aimed at either of you. A recent study reported in the New York Times and probably elsewhere showed that the most
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 3, 2000
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        > It's helpful to remember, as my grandmother would say, "if you can spot it,
        > you got it," thus revealing just where and in whom transformation must

        Sarah, Elaine --

        The following is NOT aimed at either of you.

        A recent study reported in the New York Times and probably elsewhere showed
        that the most incompetent people in most endeavors think they are competent.
        And the most competent do not feel that way.

        Similarly, the most angry, repressed, selfish, self-centered person
        constantly "sees" the faults of other people: "sees" is in quotes because
        what they are seeing is very often what they are projecting.

        I can imagine scenarios in which I would agree with your grandmother's
        quote, but it also justifies enormous self-justification. "I know I'm right,
        I got mad."

        There are people who push my buttons. Half of what they are doing is pushing
        MY buttons, which can have more to do with me than them.

        John

        PS: I love Rilke and the Duino Elegies. I've visited Duino and had dinner
        there.
      • John Massengale
        For me, this duality is reason and intuition, not reason and emotion. The combination of reason and intuition is what the Greeks, the Romans and the US
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 3, 2000
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          For me, this duality is reason and intuition, not reason and emotion. The
          combination of reason and intuition is what the Greeks, the Romans and the
          US Founders called Common Sense. The Common Sense that leads to statements
          like, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
          equal . . ."

          > Therefore, to transform the lower senses, or parts of the physical, astral
          > and etheric bodies, the work must be done through the ego.

          Yes, and the ego is a problem for many of us. If it weren't, we would be at
          a higher stage of being.

          I don't want to be in the position of arguing against emotion. What human
          does not love emotion? But does Steiner say that angels have no emotions?
          Does that say something about evolution? Are we talking about different
          things when we say "emotion"? Are there higher and lower emotions? Probably
          so, but we love them all.

          John Massengale
        • Sarah Cherry
          ... I m not sure why you thought we d think anything was aimed at all, except that we were 2 of several contributors to the thread. ... This is again a
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 3, 2000
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            >From: "John Massengale" <john@...>
            >
            > > It's helpful to remember, as my grandmother would say, "if you can spot it,
            > > you got it," thus revealing just where and in whom transformation must
            >
            >Sarah, Elaine --
            >
            >The following is NOT aimed at either of you.

            I'm not sure why you thought we'd think anything was "aimed" at all,
            except that we were 2 of several contributors to the thread.
            >
            >
            >A recent study reported in the New York Times and probably elsewhere showed
            >that the most incompetent people in most endeavors think they are competent.
            >And the most competent do not feel that way.
            >
            >Similarly, the most angry, repressed, selfish, self-centered person
            >constantly "sees" the faults of other people: "sees" is in quotes because
            >what they are seeing is very often what they are projecting.
            >
            >I can imagine scenarios in which I would agree with your grandmother's
            >quote, but it also justifies enormous self-justification. "I know I'm right,
            >I got mad."


            This is again a problem with interpretation. The only meaning I ever
            associated with the phrase is simply that one is *most likely*
            observing one's own projections in the outer world. Only through
            strenuous work on the self can this circumstance be rectified, thus
            advocating humility, self control, humor etc., to best handle the
            emotions thru the thinking. Sorry for the confusion. The meaning I
            attribute to this phrase in no way involves self-justification, but I
            can understand your point. Guess I should have stuck with
            "mechanical". :-).

            Actually, Steiner said this in a different (read better) way. To
            paraphrase Steiner, "Look into the outer world to find the self, look
            into your own soul to find the other."

            Wishing strength and peace to all,

            Sarah
          • Demetrue@aol.com
            Dearest John, What Sarah was saying (hi, Sarah ;o) now I know you are!), or rather, what her grandmother meant was, that if something annoys you about someone
            Message 5 of 6 , Mar 3, 2000
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              Dearest John, What Sarah was saying (hi, Sarah ;o) now I know you are!), or
              rather, what her grandmother meant was, that if something annoys you about
              someone else (You SPOT something that irks you) then that is a signal to
              search within yourself to see 1. what is it within you that is so easily
              annoyed and 2. what work you need to do on that same annoying quality within
              yourself (you GOT the same problem you are pointing out in others).. or to
              paraphrase Christ (LOL! that sounds so funny) "If you see a speck of sawdust
              in your brother;s eye, you better remove the plank from your own eye first,
              so you can see well enough to really help your brother with his sawdust
              problem!" Warmly and with great mirth, Demetra
            • elaine upton
              Thank you, dear Sarah, for your lovely post on transformation! I love both ways you express the point of transforming emotion, anger, for example. On another
              Message 6 of 6 , Mar 5, 2000
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                Thank you, dear Sarah, for your lovely post on transformation!

                I love both ways you express the point of transforming emotion, anger, for
                example.

                On another note: Cherry! We are having a few pink cherry blossoms here in
                Charlottesville just now!

                And Nashville! Ah! Well, i am a native of Tennessee, south of Knoxville. I
                have a long lost anthroposophic friend, Terry Howell, who lives in Franklin,
                Tennessee, near Nashville. I don't think he'd mind me saying on this list
                that he used to be lonely for anthroposophists. Do you two know each other?
                He is a psychologist, working as a consultant, sometimes for automobile
                companies (Saturn?), so maybe you ran into each other. Maybe.--So, I am
                holding him in the light of this list and of your presence near him.

                Thanks for your reply, and Be Well,
                elaine




                >From: Sarah Cherry <sncherr@...>
                >Reply-To: anthroposophy@onelist.com
                >To: anthroposophy@onelist.com
                >Subject: [anthroposophy] transformation
                >Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 12:08:22 -0600
                >
                >>From: "elaine upton" <elaineupton@...>
                >>
                >>Hello again today, Sarah, and to all.
                >>
                >>Sarah, where are you--in which city or town, if you don't mind saying?
                >
                >No, I don't mind saying at all. I am in the USA, near Nashville,
                >Tennessee I am a graphic artist working for the Saturn Corporation,
                >really as much of a geek-goddess as artist, being network-nanny to
                >our small artist computer network .
                >
                >I'd like to comment on the issue of the emotion vs objectivity. A
                >person can only work on a lower member of the individuality through a
                >higher member. Therefore, to transform the lower senses, or parts of
                >the physical, astral and etheric bodies, the work must be done
                >through the ego. In addition, all of these emotions have the mission
                >of being our teachers if we involve ourselves in the work of
                >transforming them. For example, in "Metamorphosis of the Soul",
                >Steiner says the mission of anger is to burn selfishness from the
                >individual. For this reason, we work with Spiritual Science to imbue
                >our feeling with thinking before it's directed toward the world as
                >will. As I reread this paragraph, it sounded quite mechanical and
                >intellectual, so I'll summarize with in a more human way. Getting
                >really, really mad at another person can be anything from destructive
                >to transforming. It's helpful to remember, as my grandmother would
                >say, "if you can spot it, you got it," thus revealing just where and
                >in whom transformation must take place.
                >
                >BTW, Elaine, like Demetra, I thought your translation of " Ninth
                >Duino Elegy" was beautiful.
                >
                >Wishing strength and peace to all,
                >
                >Sarah

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