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R: [anthroposophy] Re: thanks, bruce/breaking blood ties

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  • VALENTINA BRUNETTI
    Dear Soren, here I have to disagree. The healthy impulse lies in the Socialistic non-marxist stream of XIX Century: Marx and most of all Lenin perverted it,
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 3, 2002
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      Dear Soren,
      here I have to disagree.
      The "healthy impulse" lies in the Socialistic non-marxist stream of XIX
      Century: Marx and most of all Lenin perverted it, Stalin changed it at all ,
      transforming it through the forces of the Asiatic stream of Third Age
      despotism.
      From a philosophical-cultural standpoint Marx did turn upside-down the
      Hegel's "Dialectics of Spirit" ( a wholly-rationalistic Spirit, indeed) in a
      "Dialectics of Matter" based on Fuherbach's "animal-man" seen as an actual
      epiphenomenon of the Economy's process.
      Lenin used this materialistic soup mixing it up with his "realpolitik"
      issues feed by his astonishing power of being a "mass leader".
      From an occult esoteric standpoint, you have only to take a look, among
      hundreds examples, to the lecture Steiner gave on 1923,June 15 (GA 225)
      where he depicts Bolshevism as a terrible moulding of "spiritual corpse
      impulses" from the past (Shamanism and dying Western rationalism) building
      like an horrible "occult carpet" on eastern Europe.
      But if we try to take a all-encompassing look on the XX Century History we
      see three main "streams of Evil" working together .
      From the West: the "Lodges" ( and we have,now, a USA President nourished and
      nurtured just in this milieu...)
      From the Centre: Nazi , and we are able to see, on a side,the unexpected
      secret paths that - just they did in 1802's Kaspar Hauser plot- through
      Vatican's permission , allowed catholic Von Papen to join Hitler, and on the
      other side the continue financial help flowing from Western Bankers
      (Schroeder,Warburg,Wassermmann etc) and Corporate (IBM ) to Nazi.
      From the East: We all know Steiner's statement about the Lodges planning
      Esatern europe as "Socialistic attempts land".
      In 1917 we see German's general Ludendorff and Hinderburg (they'll have
      also a big part in Hitler's forthcoming fortunes) let Lenin going east in
      order to destroy Zar's Empire, In the same year Jew-American Banker Jakob
      Schiff gave "whole lotta money" to Trockij in order to get weapons for the
      Red-Army_in progress. Lenin was nourished also by Hammer-Harriman
      political-commercial plots and so on.

      The aim was the destruction of a free Central Europe spiritual development.
      We all are paying, here and now, the price of the above said plots.

      Andrea


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Sören Groth <sgroth@...>
      To: <anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 7:45 PM
      Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: thanks, bruce/breaking blood ties


      --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Bradford Riley" <holderlin66@h...> wrote:
      > From: LilOleMiss <lilolemiss@i...>

      > in your family, within yourself... and then turn around and move
      > outwards, when you dare to fght this cosmic battle in yourself and see
      > what happens in your family in your neighbourhoos in your community ..
      > The more people who can embrace their individual freedom and face the
      > consequences the less outer Dominance and Destruction will we face
      > It's out there for us to see it in ourselves :-) The more we see it
      > there and deal with it there,
      >
      > Soren
      >
      > Bradford comments;
      >
      > Sheila has it right.

      Well actually I was answering another part of Sheila's statement, but
      beside of that, there's a point where I to a certain extend see
      Sheila's right, or as Andrea put it, sometimes we have to choose the
      lesser evil, "good" is not an realistic option... That's also why I
      stop the outward individual action of non-violent justice at the
      communitylevel as an possible option for the individual ...
      At a national - international level I see that the "evil's" of
      Dominance and Destruction sometimes is the onliest options available,
      and all I can do is to adress sentiments.. just because it's necessary
      to have power and destructive means don't mean we have to be
      sympathetic about it. There's a little "dragon" hidden there :-)
      And as one isn't symphatetic it's easily played into being antipathic
      "If you're not with us you are against us" ...
      I try to be observant without antipathy or sympathy .. not objective,
      meaning just an observer leaving the scene - more like participating
      objectivism. Some interventions are necessary .. the bombing of
      Afghanistan .. Iraq should have been finished job 10 years ago ...
      Serbia ... Dominance and Destruction, but accepted by most as being
      the lesser evil ... Accepted by the people of Afghanistan and most
      people in Serbia ..
      But being to sympathetic and proud - and on the other side afraid of
      the antipathic sentiments, leave a lot of questions unattended.. To be
      forced to choose Dominance and Destruction have it's price, and with
      empathy it is possible to see it, too ... The brave soldier fighting
      for freedom is one, and indeed also a true one, picture of the story..
      The price, all the soldiers suffering from PTSD another... To deny the
      existence of this in pride over being Dominant and Destructive on the
      lesser "evil" side, is a darkness, a tumour that eat from the inside.
      As I work with a person who suffer from PTSD, it has caught my
      interest, and just saw a study, that of 2 million US soldiers in the
      Vietnam War.. 50000 died in battle .. afterwards 100000 have committed
      suicide and about 900000 still suffer from PTSD ... Just saw the first
      "Rambo" movie yesterday .. even bad movies have their points, and in
      fact the end of it is pretty well illustrating PTSD ... and how many
      have been killed by the "enemy" inside after the war... Veterans going
      nuts ... Well now recently there's even been the Gulf War vets ...

      And a lot of events seen from a sympathetic antipathic view, makes one
      miss the real events... the generic view of Soviet as the evil empire,
      true only to the extend that the leading ideology marxism-leninism
      there really is a pest (but when Hitler were in action, Roosevelt had
      the courage to choose the lesser "evil" Stalin from the bigger "evil"
      Hitler).. the immense suffering of the russian people was totally
      neglected in our minds... England, France, the US had their fight with
      Hitler, but the russian people were the ones really taking the pain...
      And actually the Eastern European Soviet Control was more a "russian"
      than a "communist" project ... if one dare to see this without
      sympathetic-antipathic googles on. Nothing to be happy about ... but I
      do remind from travels in Slovakia in the early 90'ties that all
      monuments of the communist era was taken away, excpet the ones
      thanking the red army for throwing Hitler out .... after all as the
      reality was a choice between 40 years of communism or Hitler winning
      the war...
      My point here again being a choise between two evils of Dominance and
      Destruction, were I see that marxism-leninism was a non-vital ideology
      of healthy social impulses, while nazism was a vital ideology of
      unhealthy social impulses ....

      Sören










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    • Sören Groth
      ... My statement was a very condensed thought... and you put it right.. I didn t mean the impulses of Marx and Lenin was healthy social impulses, but that they
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 4, 2002
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        --- In anthroposophy@y..., "VALENTINA BRUNETTI" <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
        > Dear Soren,
        > here I have to disagree.
        > The "healthy impulse" lies in the Socialistic non-marxist stream of XIX
        > Century:

        My statement was a very condensed thought... and you put it right.. I
        didn't mean the impulses of Marx and Lenin was healthy social
        impulses, but that they made ideology of healthy social impusles...
        Some get the idea that Karl Marx sat down and invented communism, and
        then a lot of people got their social impulses from Marx's thoughts
        (Which Steiner says is interesting as it is the first ideology based
        on total abstract thinking) ... Lenin further twisted things around as
        he wanted to adjust Marxism into fitting a historical event that
        according to marxism wasn't at all the revolution that should give
        marxists the leading role.. Lenin didn't made the russian revolution,
        the people did top get rid of the czar, the people started organising,
        when the "great october revolution" .. which simply was a coup taking
        over the already succesfull revolution...
        The main point is that as marxism is total abstaction which apparently
        talk about real social impulses, it is non-vital, it's vitality lies
        in the oppsosition to capitalism, but as it in itself only is an
        abstaction of capitalism, it contains nothing transcending from it's
        role as opposition.... The marxist-leninist state was in fact only
        succesfull in becoming a succesfull trust, not a community, but a
        monopolised company with bad management principles... as libertarian
        socialists call marxism: statecapitalism, the state become the sole
        capitalist. And a company runned by ineffective management ideology
        will have shortened lifelength... it has no own vitality.
        The problem is that marxism have had a monopoly on many issues, the
        ideology have overshadowed the real impulses, so now people can't see
        the impulses but see the ideology ....
        Well as some post said the "marxist" language of Steiner in some texts
        should be to adjust to a special situation.... but he emphasized often
        not to neglect the real impulses in the proletarian movement .. In
        adressing this movement he "spoke" their language.... but when
        adressing the "inner circle" he often said things like this:

        "If one would understand, what was intended with this book for the
        foundation of the ethical individualism, for the foundation of a
        social and a political life, if one correctly would have understood,
        what was meant with this book, then one would know: There are means
        and ways, to lead the development of mankind today into fruitful
        courses, other means and ways, as it would be the wrongest, if one
        only turn into: simply to grumble about the radical parties to only
        grumble and tell anecdotes about that Bolshevism. - it would be sadly,
        if the middle class don't overcome, only to interest itself with, what
        the Bolsheviks made here and there, and how they act against this or
        that persons; because it's not the reality. What matters, is that one
        really studied, which in a certain sense entitled demands rise from a
        side there. And can one find a worldview and a view of life, that may
        dare to say: _ What you want with your imperfect means, this will you
        attain and still much other, if you go the way, which is registered
        here -, if one may dare to say that - and I am convinced of the fact
        that,one may say that when permeated by the "philosophy of the
        liberty",- then a light would be.


        Würde man verstehen, was mit diesem Buche gewollt war für die
        Grundlegung des ethischen Individualismus, für die Grundlegung eines
        sozialen und eines politischen Lebens, würde man richtig verstanden
        haben, was mit diesem Buche gemeint war, dann würde man wissen: Es
        gibt Mittel und Wege, die Menschheitsentwickelung heute in fruchtbare
        Bahnen zu leiten, andere Mittel und Wege, als es der falscheste wäre,
        den man nur einschlagen könnte: bloß zu schimpfen über die radikalen
        Parteien, bloß zu schimpfen und Anekdoten zu erzählen über den
        Bolschewismus. - Es wäre traurig, wenn das Bürgertum nicht darüber
        hinauskäme, sich nur dafür zu interessieren, was die Bolschewiken da
        und dort gemacht haben, wie sie sich gegen diese und jene Leute
        benehmen; denn das trifft nichts in Wirklichkeit. Dasjenige, um was es
        sich handelt, ist, daß man wirklich studiert, welche in einem gewissen
        Sinne berechtigte Forderungen sich da von einer Seite erheben. Und
        kann man eine Weltanschauung und eine Lebensauffassung finden, welche
        zu sagen wagen darf: Dasjenige, was ihr wollt mit euren unvollkommenen
        Mitteln, erlangt ihr, wenn ihr den Weg, der hier verzeichnet wird,
        geht, und noch vieles andere -, wenn man wagen darf, das zu sagen -
        und ich bin überzeugt davon, daß, wenn man durchdrungen ist von der
        «Philosophie der Freiheit», man das sagen darf -, dann würde sich ein
        Licht finden."

        GA 185 From Symptom to Reality in Modern History - 6th Lecture

        Don't see Karl Marx, and miss the reality behind which has nothing at
        all with Marx, or Engels or Lenin or Stalin to do ... but real social
        impulses among real people.
        Why did Steiner withfdrew from the threefolding as massmovement after
        1919 - because it ended in discussions, and different leaders of
        ideological fractions concerned to loose control... Steiner says to
        the workers at big factories in Stuttgart, "we don't need further
        clarification, what is needed is that as many as possible go on the
        street and demand this now", as Steiner represents a more radical view
        than the socialdemocratic government ... threefolding is no utopia,
        it's a revolution.. an unfinished revolution. (the word revolution not
        meaning bloodshed and destruction.. it can be peacefull :))

        By the way I like Thomas Jefferson, and one of my favourite movies is
        "Mr Smith goes to Washington" :-)

        > My point here again being a choise between two evils of Dominance and
        > Destruction, were I see that marxism-leninism was a non-vital ideology
        > of healthy social impulses, while nazism was a vital ideology of
        > unhealthy social impulses ....
        >
        > Sören
      • Sören Groth
        ... of XIX ... As in the onliest parts of marxism I agree to he took from Proudhon. Marx was the worst slanderer, he loved industrial progress, national
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 4, 2002
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          --- In anthroposophy@y..., Sören Groth <sgroth@b...> wrote:
          > --- In anthroposophy@y..., "VALENTINA BRUNETTI" <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
          > > Dear Soren,
          > > here I have to disagree.
          > > The "healthy impulse" lies in the Socialistic non-marxist stream
          of XIX
          > > Century:
          >
          > My statement was a very condensed thought... and you put it right.. I
          > didn't mean the impulses of Marx and Lenin was healthy social
          > impulses, but that they made ideology of healthy social impulses...

          As in the onliest parts of marxism I agree to he took from Proudhon.
          Marx was the worst slanderer, he loved industrial progress, national
          political expansion, and a german chauvinist.... communism was
          something he borrowed to serve his big philosophical EGO, the theory
          of dialectic materialism explaining everything in history .. to Marx
          the proletariat, the real living people there was just a brick in a
          big philosophical dialectic battle.... and funny enough the
          materialism in Marx is total IDEA not MATTER and SUBSTANCE ...
          The onliest reason this person really got a hold on the MOVEMENT of
          people and lead there minds away from the real MATTER and SUBSTANCE
          into a world of abstract thinking .. that the MOVEMENT in Europe was
          based on migration, leaving the known world, the group soul of artisan
          and peasant life, to become an attachment to the machine, and when
          seeking for something to replace the spiritual and human needs, they
          did not find rights (which must replace the unconscious group rights,
          the family-blood ties) but priveleges. The benefits of division of
          labour, the cultural sphere of the elite offered no answer, other than
          "You'll get pie in the skye when you die" ..
          Now we have this migration on a global stage - and make the same
          mistake, and as much as some try to modernize their views, their
          arguments is total blueprints of Malthus and ManchesterLiberalism..
          And in this turmoil, where there no longer is any Groupspirit guiding
          migration (in earlier migrations in history there was a principate
          guided by the spiritual world .. there is no more, it's an individual
          destiny to participate in migration (country to city... or to
          emmigrate - immigrate) ... I do understand that this have a bit
          different perspective in the US, as the migration in the
          industrialized age, was more obviousley an individual destiny for the
          ones performing it... by emigrating ... It's not quite the same
          feeling of adventure a girl from northern Thailand feels when she is
          sold to a factory owner in Bangkok, or a brothel. No matter how
          individually liberty wonderful Libertarians without heart may make it
          sound like ... "money doesn't smell"
          Friedman... Isn't that he guy who thinks a company only have one moral
          responsibility and that is to make as much money as possible to it's
          owners ?? And as the companies should not take any responsibility all
          interference from organised labour, organised consumers or organised
          rights sphere is interference in "freedom" ??
          Ends up with a pretty closed and exclusive brootherhood in the
          economical sphere -

          Sören
        • Sören Groth
          ... Group - Individual ... INDIVIDUAL ... INDIVIDUAL ... Just like in the US of A, where the constitutions nicely proclaimes All men are created equal but
          Message 4 of 5 , Nov 4, 2002
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            --- In anthroposophy@y..., Sören Groth <sgroth@b...> wrote:
            Group - Individual
            > and peasant life, to become an attachment to the machine, and when
            > seeking for something to replace the spiritual and human needs, they
            > did not find
            INDIVIDUAL
            > rights (which must replace the unconscious group rights,
            > the family-blood ties) but
            INDIVIDUAL
            > priveleges.

            Just like in the US of A, where the constitutions nicely proclaimes
            "All men are created equal" but the term "men" was restricted to white
            males with a certain amount of property ... Quite a portion of the
            people was left outside there .. they didn't see the individual right
            in the constitution but individual priveleges.

            > Sören
          • Sören Groth
            ... But you also know where all this healthy impulses of the non-marxist socialism went ... it migrated to the US of A :-) A long story of the best of Europe,
            Message 5 of 5 , Nov 4, 2002
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              --- In anthroposophy@y..., "VALENTINA BRUNETTI" <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
              > Dear Soren,
              > here I have to disagree.
              > The "healthy impulse" lies in the Socialistic non-marxist stream of XIX
              > Century:

              But you also know where all this healthy impulses of the non-marxist
              socialism went ... it migrated to the US of A :-)
              A long story of the best of Europe, the vital healthy social impulses
              crossing the ocean .. Instead of the tribal, local community, we have
              the small migrations of groupsirits leading different religious groups
              to the new land, the quakers ... all these brootherhood christian
              communities end up in US of A, even newer one's as the Bruderhof,
              which was closely friends with Landauer and Buber .. ended in US of A
              because of nazism...
              Robert Owen... We can continue the list all night long...
              And what is an intentional community - a group joined not by boodties
              or other old groupsentiments, but a consciouss community joined by a
              coomon intention, some may try to be total, as the Amish or Camphill,
              you live your whole life within the context of this community, which
              is less good for the individual freedom .. or they are limited to
              certains issues - a waldorfschool is a free initiative of an
              intentional community .. this is the socialisation. As long as it was
              kept there okay, but when extending these ideas into owning production
              and applying the associative idea instead of the free market, well he
              got pretty isolated, the left shouldn't deal with the free cultural
              part, and the bourgeoisie yelled "bolshchewik" at him... poor Rudolf :-)
              Now at least the common man isn't that alienated to spiritual freedom,
              just at the latest trade union meting I was at, the treasurer in soem
              comments said, "Well I believe in reincarnation", and nobody reacts,
              all there knows I'm anthro and there's not an eyebrow lifted :-)
              In general anthro is nothing weird to be in Sweden, on the contrary..
              when I took job at the municipality I actually got paid about 200$
              more a month than normally for that kind of job, as they really wanted
              the competence I've got from working 12 years as health educationist.
              The practical results of applied spiritual science, and the work of
              anthro intentional communities in Sweden is known by most Swede's and
              highly respected .. So in "non-believing" Sweden to say I'm Anthro
              really isn't a secret - more a merit, and people are curious.

              Sören
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