- Dear Soren, here I have to disagree. The healthy impulse lies in the Socialistic non-marxist stream of XIX Century: Marx and most of all Lenin perverted it,Message 1 of 5 , Nov 3, 2002View SourceDear Soren,
here I have to disagree.
The "healthy impulse" lies in the Socialistic non-marxist stream of XIX
Century: Marx and most of all Lenin perverted it, Stalin changed it at all ,
transforming it through the forces of the Asiatic stream of Third Age
From a philosophical-cultural standpoint Marx did turn upside-down the
Hegel's "Dialectics of Spirit" ( a wholly-rationalistic Spirit, indeed) in a
"Dialectics of Matter" based on Fuherbach's "animal-man" seen as an actual
epiphenomenon of the Economy's process.
Lenin used this materialistic soup mixing it up with his "realpolitik"
issues feed by his astonishing power of being a "mass leader".
From an occult esoteric standpoint, you have only to take a look, among
hundreds examples, to the lecture Steiner gave on 1923,June 15 (GA 225)
where he depicts Bolshevism as a terrible moulding of "spiritual corpse
impulses" from the past (Shamanism and dying Western rationalism) building
like an horrible "occult carpet" on eastern Europe.
But if we try to take a all-encompassing look on the XX Century History we
see three main "streams of Evil" working together .
From the West: the "Lodges" ( and we have,now, a USA President nourished and
nurtured just in this milieu...)
From the Centre: Nazi , and we are able to see, on a side,the unexpected
secret paths that - just they did in 1802's Kaspar Hauser plot- through
Vatican's permission , allowed catholic Von Papen to join Hitler, and on the
other side the continue financial help flowing from Western Bankers
(Schroeder,Warburg,Wassermmann etc) and Corporate (IBM ) to Nazi.
From the East: We all know Steiner's statement about the Lodges planning
Esatern europe as "Socialistic attempts land".
In 1917 we see German's general Ludendorff and Hinderburg (they'll have
also a big part in Hitler's forthcoming fortunes) let Lenin going east in
order to destroy Zar's Empire, In the same year Jew-American Banker Jakob
Schiff gave "whole lotta money" to Trockij in order to get weapons for the
Red-Army_in progress. Lenin was nourished also by Hammer-Harriman
political-commercial plots and so on.
The aim was the destruction of a free Central Europe spiritual development.
We all are paying, here and now, the price of the above said plots.
----- Original Message -----
From: Sören Groth <sgroth@...>
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 7:45 PM
Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: thanks, bruce/breaking blood ties
--- In anthroposophy@y..., "Bradford Riley" <holderlin66@h...> wrote:
> From: LilOleMiss <lilolemiss@i...>
> in your family, within yourself... and then turn around and move
> outwards, when you dare to fght this cosmic battle in yourself and see
> what happens in your family in your neighbourhoos in your community ..
> The more people who can embrace their individual freedom and face the
> consequences the less outer Dominance and Destruction will we face
> It's out there for us to see it in ourselves :-) The more we see it
> there and deal with it there,
> Bradford comments;
> Sheila has it right.
Well actually I was answering another part of Sheila's statement, but
beside of that, there's a point where I to a certain extend see
Sheila's right, or as Andrea put it, sometimes we have to choose the
lesser evil, "good" is not an realistic option... That's also why I
stop the outward individual action of non-violent justice at the
communitylevel as an possible option for the individual ...
At a national - international level I see that the "evil's" of
Dominance and Destruction sometimes is the onliest options available,
and all I can do is to adress sentiments.. just because it's necessary
to have power and destructive means don't mean we have to be
sympathetic about it. There's a little "dragon" hidden there :-)
And as one isn't symphatetic it's easily played into being antipathic
"If you're not with us you are against us" ...
I try to be observant without antipathy or sympathy .. not objective,
meaning just an observer leaving the scene - more like participating
objectivism. Some interventions are necessary .. the bombing of
Afghanistan .. Iraq should have been finished job 10 years ago ...
Serbia ... Dominance and Destruction, but accepted by most as being
the lesser evil ... Accepted by the people of Afghanistan and most
people in Serbia ..
But being to sympathetic and proud - and on the other side afraid of
the antipathic sentiments, leave a lot of questions unattended.. To be
forced to choose Dominance and Destruction have it's price, and with
empathy it is possible to see it, too ... The brave soldier fighting
for freedom is one, and indeed also a true one, picture of the story..
The price, all the soldiers suffering from PTSD another... To deny the
existence of this in pride over being Dominant and Destructive on the
lesser "evil" side, is a darkness, a tumour that eat from the inside.
As I work with a person who suffer from PTSD, it has caught my
interest, and just saw a study, that of 2 million US soldiers in the
Vietnam War.. 50000 died in battle .. afterwards 100000 have committed
suicide and about 900000 still suffer from PTSD ... Just saw the first
"Rambo" movie yesterday .. even bad movies have their points, and in
fact the end of it is pretty well illustrating PTSD ... and how many
have been killed by the "enemy" inside after the war... Veterans going
nuts ... Well now recently there's even been the Gulf War vets ...
And a lot of events seen from a sympathetic antipathic view, makes one
miss the real events... the generic view of Soviet as the evil empire,
true only to the extend that the leading ideology marxism-leninism
there really is a pest (but when Hitler were in action, Roosevelt had
the courage to choose the lesser "evil" Stalin from the bigger "evil"
Hitler).. the immense suffering of the russian people was totally
neglected in our minds... England, France, the US had their fight with
Hitler, but the russian people were the ones really taking the pain...
And actually the Eastern European Soviet Control was more a "russian"
than a "communist" project ... if one dare to see this without
sympathetic-antipathic googles on. Nothing to be happy about ... but I
do remind from travels in Slovakia in the early 90'ties that all
monuments of the communist era was taken away, excpet the ones
thanking the red army for throwing Hitler out .... after all as the
reality was a choice between 40 years of communism or Hitler winning
My point here again being a choise between two evils of Dominance and
Destruction, were I see that marxism-leninism was a non-vital ideology
of healthy social impulses, while nazism was a vital ideology of
unhealthy social impulses ....
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- ... My statement was a very condensed thought... and you put it right.. I didn t mean the impulses of Marx and Lenin was healthy social impulses, but that theyMessage 2 of 5 , Nov 4, 2002View Source--- In anthroposophy@y..., "VALENTINA BRUNETTI" <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
> Dear Soren,My statement was a very condensed thought... and you put it right.. I
> here I have to disagree.
> The "healthy impulse" lies in the Socialistic non-marxist stream of XIX
didn't mean the impulses of Marx and Lenin was healthy social
impulses, but that they made ideology of healthy social impusles...
Some get the idea that Karl Marx sat down and invented communism, and
then a lot of people got their social impulses from Marx's thoughts
(Which Steiner says is interesting as it is the first ideology based
on total abstract thinking) ... Lenin further twisted things around as
he wanted to adjust Marxism into fitting a historical event that
according to marxism wasn't at all the revolution that should give
marxists the leading role.. Lenin didn't made the russian revolution,
the people did top get rid of the czar, the people started organising,
when the "great october revolution" .. which simply was a coup taking
over the already succesfull revolution...
The main point is that as marxism is total abstaction which apparently
talk about real social impulses, it is non-vital, it's vitality lies
in the oppsosition to capitalism, but as it in itself only is an
abstaction of capitalism, it contains nothing transcending from it's
role as opposition.... The marxist-leninist state was in fact only
succesfull in becoming a succesfull trust, not a community, but a
monopolised company with bad management principles... as libertarian
socialists call marxism: statecapitalism, the state become the sole
capitalist. And a company runned by ineffective management ideology
will have shortened lifelength... it has no own vitality.
The problem is that marxism have had a monopoly on many issues, the
ideology have overshadowed the real impulses, so now people can't see
the impulses but see the ideology ....
Well as some post said the "marxist" language of Steiner in some texts
should be to adjust to a special situation.... but he emphasized often
not to neglect the real impulses in the proletarian movement .. In
adressing this movement he "spoke" their language.... but when
adressing the "inner circle" he often said things like this:
"If one would understand, what was intended with this book for the
foundation of the ethical individualism, for the foundation of a
social and a political life, if one correctly would have understood,
what was meant with this book, then one would know: There are means
and ways, to lead the development of mankind today into fruitful
courses, other means and ways, as it would be the wrongest, if one
only turn into: simply to grumble about the radical parties to only
grumble and tell anecdotes about that Bolshevism. - it would be sadly,
if the middle class don't overcome, only to interest itself with, what
the Bolsheviks made here and there, and how they act against this or
that persons; because it's not the reality. What matters, is that one
really studied, which in a certain sense entitled demands rise from a
side there. And can one find a worldview and a view of life, that may
dare to say: _ What you want with your imperfect means, this will you
attain and still much other, if you go the way, which is registered
here -, if one may dare to say that - and I am convinced of the fact
that,one may say that when permeated by the "philosophy of the
liberty",- then a light would be.
Würde man verstehen, was mit diesem Buche gewollt war für die
Grundlegung des ethischen Individualismus, für die Grundlegung eines
sozialen und eines politischen Lebens, würde man richtig verstanden
haben, was mit diesem Buche gemeint war, dann würde man wissen: Es
gibt Mittel und Wege, die Menschheitsentwickelung heute in fruchtbare
Bahnen zu leiten, andere Mittel und Wege, als es der falscheste wäre,
den man nur einschlagen könnte: bloß zu schimpfen über die radikalen
Parteien, bloß zu schimpfen und Anekdoten zu erzählen über den
Bolschewismus. - Es wäre traurig, wenn das Bürgertum nicht darüber
hinauskäme, sich nur dafür zu interessieren, was die Bolschewiken da
und dort gemacht haben, wie sie sich gegen diese und jene Leute
benehmen; denn das trifft nichts in Wirklichkeit. Dasjenige, um was es
sich handelt, ist, daß man wirklich studiert, welche in einem gewissen
Sinne berechtigte Forderungen sich da von einer Seite erheben. Und
kann man eine Weltanschauung und eine Lebensauffassung finden, welche
zu sagen wagen darf: Dasjenige, was ihr wollt mit euren unvollkommenen
Mitteln, erlangt ihr, wenn ihr den Weg, der hier verzeichnet wird,
geht, und noch vieles andere -, wenn man wagen darf, das zu sagen -
und ich bin überzeugt davon, daß, wenn man durchdrungen ist von der
«Philosophie der Freiheit», man das sagen darf -, dann würde sich ein
GA 185 From Symptom to Reality in Modern History - 6th Lecture
Don't see Karl Marx, and miss the reality behind which has nothing at
all with Marx, or Engels or Lenin or Stalin to do ... but real social
impulses among real people.
Why did Steiner withfdrew from the threefolding as massmovement after
1919 - because it ended in discussions, and different leaders of
ideological fractions concerned to loose control... Steiner says to
the workers at big factories in Stuttgart, "we don't need further
clarification, what is needed is that as many as possible go on the
street and demand this now", as Steiner represents a more radical view
than the socialdemocratic government ... threefolding is no utopia,
it's a revolution.. an unfinished revolution. (the word revolution not
meaning bloodshed and destruction.. it can be peacefull :))
By the way I like Thomas Jefferson, and one of my favourite movies is
"Mr Smith goes to Washington" :-)
> My point here again being a choise between two evils of Dominance and
> Destruction, were I see that marxism-leninism was a non-vital ideology
> of healthy social impulses, while nazism was a vital ideology of
> unhealthy social impulses ....
- ... of XIX ... As in the onliest parts of marxism I agree to he took from Proudhon. Marx was the worst slanderer, he loved industrial progress, nationalMessage 3 of 5 , Nov 4, 2002View Source--- In anthroposophy@y..., Sören Groth <sgroth@b...> wrote:
> --- In anthroposophy@y..., "VALENTINA BRUNETTI" <okcgbr@t...> wrote:of XIX
> > Dear Soren,
> > here I have to disagree.
> > The "healthy impulse" lies in the Socialistic non-marxist stream
> > Century:As in the onliest parts of marxism I agree to he took from Proudhon.
> My statement was a very condensed thought... and you put it right.. I
> didn't mean the impulses of Marx and Lenin was healthy social
> impulses, but that they made ideology of healthy social impulses...
Marx was the worst slanderer, he loved industrial progress, national
political expansion, and a german chauvinist.... communism was
something he borrowed to serve his big philosophical EGO, the theory
of dialectic materialism explaining everything in history .. to Marx
the proletariat, the real living people there was just a brick in a
big philosophical dialectic battle.... and funny enough the
materialism in Marx is total IDEA not MATTER and SUBSTANCE ...
The onliest reason this person really got a hold on the MOVEMENT of
people and lead there minds away from the real MATTER and SUBSTANCE
into a world of abstract thinking .. that the MOVEMENT in Europe was
based on migration, leaving the known world, the group soul of artisan
and peasant life, to become an attachment to the machine, and when
seeking for something to replace the spiritual and human needs, they
did not find rights (which must replace the unconscious group rights,
the family-blood ties) but priveleges. The benefits of division of
labour, the cultural sphere of the elite offered no answer, other than
"You'll get pie in the skye when you die" ..
Now we have this migration on a global stage - and make the same
mistake, and as much as some try to modernize their views, their
arguments is total blueprints of Malthus and ManchesterLiberalism..
And in this turmoil, where there no longer is any Groupspirit guiding
migration (in earlier migrations in history there was a principate
guided by the spiritual world .. there is no more, it's an individual
destiny to participate in migration (country to city... or to
emmigrate - immigrate) ... I do understand that this have a bit
different perspective in the US, as the migration in the
industrialized age, was more obviousley an individual destiny for the
ones performing it... by emigrating ... It's not quite the same
feeling of adventure a girl from northern Thailand feels when she is
sold to a factory owner in Bangkok, or a brothel. No matter how
individually liberty wonderful Libertarians without heart may make it
sound like ... "money doesn't smell"
Friedman... Isn't that he guy who thinks a company only have one moral
responsibility and that is to make as much money as possible to it's
owners ?? And as the companies should not take any responsibility all
interference from organised labour, organised consumers or organised
rights sphere is interference in "freedom" ??
Ends up with a pretty closed and exclusive brootherhood in the
economical sphere -
- ... Group - Individual ... INDIVIDUAL ... INDIVIDUAL ... Just like in the US of A, where the constitutions nicely proclaimes All men are created equal butMessage 4 of 5 , Nov 4, 2002View Source
--- In anthroposophy@y..., Sören Groth <sgroth@b...> wrote:
Group - Individual
> and peasant life, to become an attachment to the machine, and when
> seeking for something to replace the spiritual and human needs, they
> did not find
> rights (which must replace the unconscious group rights,
> the family-blood ties) but
Just like in the US of A, where the constitutions nicely proclaimes
"All men are created equal" but the term "men" was restricted to white
males with a certain amount of property ... Quite a portion of the
people was left outside there .. they didn't see the individual right
in the constitution but individual priveleges.
- ... But you also know where all this healthy impulses of the non-marxist socialism went ... it migrated to the US of A :-) A long story of the best of Europe,Message 5 of 5 , Nov 4, 2002View Source--- In anthroposophy@y..., "VALENTINA BRUNETTI" <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
> Dear Soren,But you also know where all this healthy impulses of the non-marxist
> here I have to disagree.
> The "healthy impulse" lies in the Socialistic non-marxist stream of XIX
socialism went ... it migrated to the US of A :-)
A long story of the best of Europe, the vital healthy social impulses
crossing the ocean .. Instead of the tribal, local community, we have
the small migrations of groupsirits leading different religious groups
to the new land, the quakers ... all these brootherhood christian
communities end up in US of A, even newer one's as the Bruderhof,
which was closely friends with Landauer and Buber .. ended in US of A
because of nazism...
Robert Owen... We can continue the list all night long...
And what is an intentional community - a group joined not by boodties
or other old groupsentiments, but a consciouss community joined by a
coomon intention, some may try to be total, as the Amish or Camphill,
you live your whole life within the context of this community, which
is less good for the individual freedom .. or they are limited to
certains issues - a waldorfschool is a free initiative of an
intentional community .. this is the socialisation. As long as it was
kept there okay, but when extending these ideas into owning production
and applying the associative idea instead of the free market, well he
got pretty isolated, the left shouldn't deal with the free cultural
part, and the bourgeoisie yelled "bolshchewik" at him... poor Rudolf :-)
Now at least the common man isn't that alienated to spiritual freedom,
just at the latest trade union meting I was at, the treasurer in soem
comments said, "Well I believe in reincarnation", and nobody reacts,
all there knows I'm anthro and there's not an eyebrow lifted :-)
In general anthro is nothing weird to be in Sweden, on the contrary..
when I took job at the municipality I actually got paid about 200$
more a month than normally for that kind of job, as they really wanted
the competence I've got from working 12 years as health educationist.
The practical results of applied spiritual science, and the work of
anthro intentional communities in Sweden is known by most Swede's and
highly respected .. So in "non-believing" Sweden to say I'm Anthro
really isn't a secret - more a merit, and people are curious.