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R: [anthroposophy] Re: thanks, bruce

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  • VALENTINA BRUNETTI
    ... From: Sören Groth To: Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 11:33 PM Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: thanks,
    Message 1 of 3 , Nov 2, 2002
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Sören Groth <sgroth@...>
      To: <anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 11:33 PM
      Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: thanks, bruce


      --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
      >
      > > Thanks, bruce for the clarification on Matthew, non-violence and
      > > the "sword". This, what steiner said about the verse "I come to bring
      > > the sword..." makes much sense. The Christ was, afterall, the Prince
      > > of Peace...
      > >
      >
      > *******But I'm sure it quite contradicts the meaning of the
      scripture (Matt.
      > 10:34-37), the complete text being:
      >
      > "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to
      send
      > peace, but a sword. I am come set a man at variance against his
      father, and
      > the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her
      mother
      > in law, and a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that
      loveth
      > father and mother more than me is not worthy of Me: and he that
      loveth son or
      > daughter more than me is not worthy of Me."
      >
      > How does that square with reversing the meaning of the first half
      into "I
      > am come to send the sword away"? It doesn't. He came to bring
      conflict, the
      > meaning clearly is.

      Which is not contradictionary to the other non-violent messages to
      those following Christ... Note the passage doesn't say he has come to
      bring Sword in the hands of the followers... :-)
      >
      > And I recall Steiner explaining this as the Ego, the "I AM", the
      Christ
      > within, having to fight against the group-soul and blood ties (the
      parents)
      > to manifest.

      Yup which weaves a long web of the I AM, as Jahve for the choosen
      people, becoming free to follow for all mankind in the first christian
      communion-community brother and sisterhood, then again becoming for
      the choosen, the institutionalised by God choosen church's patriarchs,
      usurpated by the by God choosen King, through the by God choosen
      Nations Patria, to the by God choosen invisible hand through the
      patonized EGO spreading over the world to again become the I AM for
      mankind in brother-and-sisterhood.. through EGO and I are not quite
      the same thing... it sure has been bringing the sword, to take us from
      determinated choosen-rejected to freedom of choice and rejection - Not
      that we shall have that discussion again.. :-) But it again reminds us
      of the two-jesus situation...



      Moreover,Soren
      the "sword" of Christ is the Apocalyptic Sword of the I AM, that's the
      double-edged sword of Freedom.
      The "war" is the inner war and that's the war aginst our own heritage and
      physical streams in which we are goin'to embody in order to fulfil our karma
      and to step further in order to open up ourselves to the Logos-Freedom,
      that is the Peace-Truth place.
      Needless to say: all the nationalistic, "holy-war-like" or "Kill-Saddam-or
      Anybody else" - aka outer war impulses - are just the opposite of all this.


      Andrea

      Sören
      > -starman
      > http://www.DrStarman.net



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    • Sören Groth
      ... Thanks.... :-) And turning it to a ploughbill, a process of Iron, is what you describe below ... heritage and ... our karma ... Which also have the outward
      Message 2 of 3 , Nov 2, 2002
        --- In anthroposophy@y..., "VALENTINA BRUNETTI" <okcgbr@t...> wrote:

        > Moreover,Soren
        > the "sword" of Christ is the Apocalyptic Sword of the I AM, that's the
        > double-edged sword of Freedom.

        Thanks.... :-) And turning it to a ploughbill, a process of Iron, is
        what you describe below

        > The "war" is the inner war and that's the war aginst our own
        heritage and
        > physical streams in which we are goin'to embody in order to fulfil
        our karma
        > and to step further in order to open up ourselves to the Logos-Freedom,
        > that is the Peace-Truth place.

        Which also have the outward stream .. the more one dare to draw the
        sword and do the battle within, the more one can turn the sword to a
        ploughbill, be able to cultivate peace and thruth in outward action

        > Needless to say: all the nationalistic, "holy-war-like" or
        "Kill-Saddam-or
        > Anybody else" - aka outer war impulses - are just the opposite of
        all this.

        I mean another side of the same battle, if it can't be done within it
        get's projected ... and happens as physical sword, the lesser we can
        handle the conflict as an inward process the more it get's projected
        in the outer impulses - there's no dialogue, but exchange of demands
        and counterdemands, eventually with no way back than attack and
        counter-attack -
        But it is very special experience to intervene in a outer conflict
        with the peace and truth within, miracles happen :-)
        Non-violent justice is the toughest road to go, but give the sweetest
        victories, as there's only winners and no loosers :-)

        > Andrea
        Sören
      • VALENTINA BRUNETTI
        Dear Soren and Ron, There s a side of your posts which I could agree with , if I began to consider it on an actually historical point of view. That is the
        Message 3 of 3 , Nov 2, 2002
           Dear Soren and Ron,
           
          There's a side of your posts which I could agree with , if I began to consider it on an actually historical point of view.
            That is the very biography of Walter Johannes Stein.
             He surely choosed the "lesser evil" , like you suggest, fighting for Westerners and Winnie Churchill better for than Adolf.
           And surely , if I lived those days , I should have myself did the same !
          But Walter Johannes KNEW who Adolph was and where is an Adolf Hitler today ?.
          I have heard someone - namely the horrible Italy's premier Berlusconi - talk about Saddam like an Hitler  .... Let's be serious!. Saddam is a common butcher, like thousands in Mankind's history, Adolph was a different issue ,  and now we all know it.
          Well  how can I justify today an "oil-holy war" against Saddam (or Islam "terrorism") when I know, being a non-professional historian but somehow student and writer of historical matters, all the background about West-Saddam connection in the 80s, oil-drugs-Cia connection all along the years, 9/11 puzzles and so on ? 
            Moreover: having had a privileged look at occult and esoteric hidden agendas of "you know Who" since 1789 onward ?
          How can I justify,brothers in Christ,  any war here and now ?
          Oh yes I know what  we have been told  about the  pre-Christlike inner gesture that Krishna suggested to Arjuna. "You have to kill your brother but you have to be aware, in the meantime, that at the I AM level, there is no more fight or hatred, but there is only Love and Wisdom ?"
          That's not enough for me.
           So as a personal issue I am convinced that we  can work to heal the karmic roots of hatred killing, for instance and among thousands of other gestures, any "patriotic" impulse in us
          Since   the true "patriot" is  the one who is able to talk with his Folk Soul Archangelic Being: needless to say that each other "patriotism" is a mask for the Hindrancers in us.  
          On a social level: I don't want the world "to be fooled again"by mainstream media , who are screaming "War!"  and so I keep on to cooperate with the eco-pacifists here and now.
          That is a  " lesser evil" since Threefolding is still to come!
          One more reason to wish long life to everyone working on Threefolding on a political worldwide or local level , from Perlas to Ben Aharon !
           
           
          Andrea
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Br. Ron
          Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 2:39 PM
          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: thanks, bruce

              > Needless to say: all the nationalistic, "holy-war-like" or
              >"Kill-Saddam-or
              > Anybody else" - aka outer war impulses - are just the opposite of
              >all this.

          I mean another side of the same battle, if it can't be done within it
          get's projected ... and happens as physical sword, the lesser we can
          handle the conflict as an inward process the more it get's projected
          in the outer impulses - there's no dialogue, but exchange of demands
          and counterdemands, eventually with no way back than attack and
          counter-attack -
          But it is  very special experience to intervene in a outer conflict
          with the peace and truth within, miracles happen :-)
          Non-violent justice is the toughest road to go, but give the sweetest
          victories, as there's only winners and no loosers :-) 

          Sören
           
          =================
           
          Yes, this is the way I see it too. External violence is never
          the highest road possible. At best it can be but the 'lesser
          of two evils.'
           
          Unfortunately, at this point in our planetary consciousness,
          it sometimes is a necessity. Not the ideal to be sure, but
          a reality nonetheless.
           
          Killing the crazed hoards doesn't kill the "principalities"
          that animate them. It just buys a little time to live freely
          long enough to reach certain, urgent spiritual plateaus.
           
          BR
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           

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