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Re: our materialistic culture and our self-complacent society...

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  • Demetrue@aol.com
    Aha! John, your question about legitimacy led me off the topic of why there is so much violence among American youth today.... Now Steiner passed away 50 years
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 28, 2000
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      Aha! John, your question about legitimacy led me off the topic of why there
      is so much violence among American youth today.... Now Steiner passed away 50
      years before abortion was legalized in America (not that abortions were not
      performed before the 1970s in America, but the numbers performed before that
      time were very low compared to the 2 million a year that are now performed in
      this country).. Now here is what I was thinking.... Steiner was lecturing in
      Germany right before a terrible evil impulse of death was about to grip
      Europe.... I believe what was going on in European culture may have been
      very different from what was transpiring in the United States... My
      grandmother, born in 1908, had told me that growing up in her time, there was
      such a sense of duty and work ethic that women usually did not "have time" to
      indulge in extramarital affairs, or seriously entertain the idea of divorce..
      it was understood that if you married (and you probably would have to for
      financial reasons), you would grin and bear the situation and you would
      probably have at least 4 children, and birth control meant that you and your
      husband slipped into a comfortable friendship where sex was not a regular
      occurrence ... also, the amount of manual labor involved in everyday survival
      (my grandmother grew up on the farm, like many Americans before
      industrialization became a way of life) consumed much of the sex drive and
      creative energies..... In middle class America at the time of Steiner, there
      was such a social stigma against becoming pregnant out of wedlock that the
      fear of social ostracism alone probably kept many young women from engaging
      in premarital sex.... This is what I am most interested in: At the time of
      Steiner, abortion and illegitimate births were at a very low level.... also
      industrialization and technology had not yet taken over most of our daily
      jobs.. also, youth violence and disrespect was rather low (HOWEVER, a whole
      generation of American teenagers (18-19) were about to go off to Europe in
      the idealistic cause of freeing the world from the death grip of Nazism and
      ironically die violent deaths for a noble cause).. Now let's see how the
      situation has reversed in our country: in the 1960s we have the sexual
      revolution where many societal taboos are broken, premarital sex becomes the
      norm, divorce rates rise to 1 out of every 2 marriages, abortion becomes
      legal and abortion rates rise to 2 million performed a year, or 50 million in
      the last 25+ years.... contraception become the norm ... the birth rate drops
      to 2.1 per family, yet the rate of illegitimate births and teen unwed
      pregnancy skyrockets.... we live in a time of unheralded peace (no great wars
      or noble causes to fight) and prosperity (supermarkets and appliances supply
      our every need, so that we have become useless button punchers).. here we are
      with our human bodies, but most of our tasks require minimal physical
      exertion.. the body feels almost superfluous now that machines give us this
      day our daily bread.. come to think of it, the spiritual connection also
      seems superfluous to the man that now sits before the altar of his big screen
      TV and who has lost any connection to the earth or the divine ... no wonder
      our youth feel alienated.. they are even alienated from their own bodies.. no
      wonder they no longer know why they are here or for what purpose they were
      created.... since we no longer have to exercise our wills or our spirits to
      survive on the earth, our youth may come to believe that everything was put
      here to serve them (rather than that they have come here to be of service)..
      as our wills and spirits become weakened from disuse, we start to live for
      hedonistic pleasure, substituting addictive physical pleasure for a genuine,
      connected relationship to the Divine... I think as we have lost our
      purposefulness as a society, youthful vitality and vigor is channeled into
      the short-circuited, convoluted service of violence and death, instead of
      being drawn upward into the service of life, the Divine, and humanity... We
      need to give our young people real, meaningful, purposeful WORK.....But we
      also need to be working along side of them....
    • Danny F.
      ... This is that the good normal thinking, and behaving people of North-America are neuroticaly going from one extreme to the other: The wood separateness of
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 28, 2000
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        --- Demetrue@... wrote:
        > From: Demetrue@...

        > as our wills and spirits become weakened from disuse, we start to
        > live for
        > hedonistic pleasure, substituting addictive physical pleasure for a
        > genuine,
        > connected relationship to the Divine...

        This is that the good "normal" thinking, and behaving people of
        North-America are neuroticaly going from one extreme to the other:

        The wood separateness of Ahriman, or the sensual fusion of Lucifer.
        Where is content?, where is spirit?, where is dialogue? etc.

        We live in a culture that either of necessity, work, that's ok,
        or of "candies" and sensations(hedonism). This is that we've come to
        senselessly work for work(people doesn't know anything else to do as
        a human), or/and seek for pleasures. So why do the North-American
        work else then fulfilling his real needs of food, shelter and the
        like? He work work in order to do something, because the North-
        American feels he has to do something, and since this something(work)
        has become for him the everything, the North-American will be pleased

        to not have time for anything else and at the same time find his own
        value in such of an activity as working for working. The other pole
        arise out of the previous since the society is all-economy basically
        unfortunatly and humans also, so do the candies arise in form of
        different goods and social behaviors, for the western people value
        material goods a lot, and so the social behaviors that produce waves
        of stimulation in their astral body; shortly the ideas don't have much
        of a reality and that much value for the North American GENERALLY, for

        here we work and "eat" candies...

        I work, so I'm a respectable person of course(smile), and I'm also
        a "social" person in my candy seeking behaviour, an idea that doesn't
        taste anything and this is more of a dreamy nature, so I prefer to be
        a "respectable" worker, and of course, a candy eater; so would speak
        the North American really GENERALLY.

        There's even that pejorative expression '� la mode' in the school
        system here in Qu�bec 'CLOUD SHOVELLER' for the students going to
        study art, music, history, psychology and all those disciplines that
        are not tremendously economical, technologic or the like...

        Signs of our time: sophistication, simplistic, dryness,
        emotional outpourings, separateness, emptyness,
        etc.

        If you want my opinion the North American type is constantly repeating
        the Event of the Fall, trying to hide in the fashion of Adam and Eve
        in the Garden of Eden, and finally be bound to the earth and have to
        labor.


        God, it's good to know the Lord and Anthroposophy no?

        Danny


        =====
        'There's a fine line between participation and mockery'.
        --Scott Adams

        'My advice to you is to get married. If you find a good wife, you'll be happy; if not, you'll become a philosopher'.

        'True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing'.
        --Socrates
        __________________________________________________
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      • John Massengale
        ... What is this? I suspect that the image it is conjuring up for me is different than the one you intend. John Massengale
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 28, 2000
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          > The wood separateness of Ahriman

          What is this? I suspect that the image it is conjuring up for me is
          different than the one you intend.

          John Massengale
        • Danny F.
          ... I was referring to the sense of separation between individuals; the wooden etheric body, which is the body of love when it is not wooden... I tried to coin
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 28, 2000
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            --- John Massengale <john@...> wrote:
            > From: "John Massengale" <john@...>
            >
            > > The wood separateness of Ahriman
            >
            > What is this? I suspect that the image it is conjuring up for me is
            > different than the one you intend.
            >
            > John Massengale

            I was referring to the sense of separation between individuals;
            the wooden etheric body, which is the body of love when it is not
            wooden...

            I tried to coin a phrase, the above you quoted.

            Basically all the enlighten analysts, may they be psychoanalysts or
            psychologists and the like will tell you there's a tremendous problem
            in the west with the sense of touch and all that turns around it, this

            is merely the peak of the iceberg...

            Danny

            =====
            'There's a fine line between participation and mockery'.
            --Scott Adams

            'My advice to you is to get married. If you find a good wife, you'll be happy; if not, you'll become a philosopher'.

            'True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing'.
            --Socrates
            __________________________________________________
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          • Demetrue@aol.com
            Danny, I was thinking that we still must have that same Christic task of balancing the two thrusts of Lucifer and Ahriman.. Also, when America was more of an
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 28, 2000
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              Danny, I was thinking that we still must have that same Christic task of
              balancing the two thrusts of Lucifer and Ahriman.. Also, when America was
              more of an agrarian society, the hard work was deeply connected to the earth
              and life,and I would guess was MOST satisfying.... If the farmer did NOT
              awake at the crack of dawn to milk the cows, there would be no milk for
              breakfast (I know this would be a non-issue to vegans, etc. but please bear
              with me).. if he did not plow the fields after the first thaw and rain, he
              would miss his window of opportunity to plant the grain.. IF he did not plant
              the grain by a certain date and lunar cycle, there would be no bread come
              winter time... THe earth and the seasonal weather patterns dictated all his
              physical labor and if he did not work hard, he and his family would literally
              starve to death.. if an animal was killed, every part of the animal was
              used.. to make gelatin, leather, glue, needles, soap, candles, even to make
              strings for stringed instruments... the internal organs were used to make
              vessels for carrying water or beverages (don;t mean to be gross here!), the
              intestines were used to stuff sausage, feathers were used for pillows and
              comforters.. there was a necessary cycle and rhythm of life, dictated by the
              earth, that modern society hass lost for the most part... today, our work is
              so far removed from the final product that of course we find it
              unsatisfying... now we merely work for symbols, like paper money and we use
              these symbols to buy clothing and food that we have absolutely NO connection
              to! WE did not grow the food, it comes to us in artifical packaging... we
              did not gather the wool or flax or cotton or silk to make our clothings, we
              did not spin the thread or weave the yarn.... No wonder we work and work and
              are never satisfied with the fruits of our labors.. I used to be that the
              labor itself gave us joy and satisfaction and the end product was well
              deserved.... Now our work (in white collar, corporate America) seems empty
              and meaningless, and the fruits are hollow and can never satisfy our
              appetites, so we falsely assume that if we just work harder and get MORE
              empty fruits, then we will be satisfied..... Of course, that work and those
              fruits will never satisfy our spiritual hunger to be fully human and
              connected...
            • Demetrue@aol.com
              Danny, I have also noticed we have a problem with our sense of smell as well! At some point in childhood, it is like we close our noses :o), and by
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 28, 2000
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                Danny, I have also noticed we have a problem with our sense of smell as well!
                At some point in childhood, it is like we close our noses :o), and by
                adolescenthood we are bathing away every human smell and masking it with
                artificial perfumes, so that we smell more like plastic Barbie dolls than
                real human beings! Has anyone else noticed that they don;t fully indulge
                their sense of smell?
              • John Massengale
                ... My image was related but different: of all of us living in isolation in our little cabins in the woods. All of the high school shootings have taken place
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 28, 2000
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                  > I was referring to the sense of separation between individuals;
                  > the wooden etheric body, which is the body of love when it is not
                  > wooden...

                  My image was related but different: of all of us living in isolation in our
                  little cabins in the woods. All of the high school shootings have taken
                  place in exurbia, where adolescents have no social life without access to a
                  car.

                  Since most of them are too young to drive or can't afford a car, that is an
                  obvious social problem. Even when they do have a car, the local piazza is
                  usually a parking lot at a strip mall.

                  John Massengale
                • Demetrue@aol.com
                  I don t know John.... I think they were living in the suburbs and had next door neighbors and social lives... I think part of the problem was they did not fit
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 28, 2000
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                    I don't know John.... I think they were living in the suburbs and had next
                    door neighbors and social lives... I think part of the problem was they did
                    not fit in well with any of the popular groups, such as jocks, cheerleaders,
                    but they were able to find like-minded loners in pain on the Internet... (If
                    every state just had 2 or 3 melancholy violent minded children and each one
                    got on-line, you could easily have a group of 150 children coming together
                    and giving credence to their wrong-minded solutions of violence as a means to
                    solve their social problems.) Also, these children (in Colorado) did have
                    friends, and they were in one of the boy;s basements building bombs... I
                    think the greatest gap in social connections was between the parents and
                    those children ... though, I honestly think the parents had already given up
                    and really did not know what to do with their boys' behavior problems ... the
                    one boy had applied to enlist in the military (I am sure the parents had
                    hoped to channel his violent tendencies in a socially acceptable, monitored,
                    disciplined way), but he had just been rejected because he was being treated
                    for depression and apparently was on antidepressants. And then all hell
                    really did break loose... Who knows when or why the depression started.. who
                    knows if the medication was altering the child's consciousness.... It seems
                    he had already given himself over to the forces of darkness (looking for the
                    power and acceptance he felt was denied him by mainstream society) and became
                    enslaved by the very same power he had hoped to wield over others... just
                    another casualty of evil...
                  • Danny F.
                    ... Since you re an architect John, do you think that the ancient Greek model kind of thing where there was public places really, or even Europe I think in
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 28, 2000
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                      --- John Massengale <john@...> wrote:
                      > From: "John Massengale" <john@...>
                      >
                      > > I was referring to the sense of separation between individuals;
                      > > the wooden etheric body, which is the body of love when it is not
                      > > wooden...
                      >
                      > My image was related but different: of all of us living in isolation
                      > in our
                      > little cabins in the woods. All of the high school shootings have
                      > taken
                      > place in exurbia, where adolescents have no social life without
                      > access to a
                      > car.
                      >
                      > Since most of them are too young to drive or can't afford a car, that
                      > is an
                      > obvious social problem. Even when they do have a car, the local
                      > piazza is
                      > usually a parking lot at a strip mall.
                      >
                      > John Massengale


                      Since you're an architect John, do you think that the ancient Greek
                      model kind of thing where there was public places really, or even
                      Europe I think in general is better than North America for that, could
                      offer a core(a heart) an alternative to North American cities where
                      the only likeness to a core is their major economical and business
                      like streets? I think there's actually a tendency to construct big
                      movie theater complex in the subburbs, but it seem to be far from
                      what is needed in terms of human interactions no. Are we too socially
                      sick to have cities promoting an architecture else then cement and
                      tar?
                      but have real nice places with gardens for example, that's not very
                      expensive flowers!!! I guess one of the argument would be that flowers

                      are not something useful. There's really only a sick brain logic to
                      say that Beauty is not useful, only a sick brain logic to push aside
                      the Good, the Beautiful, an the True; this is unfortunatly also the
                      economical logic of modern consciousnes...

                      Danny

                      =====
                      'There's a fine line between participation and mockery'.
                      --Scott Adams

                      'My advice to you is to get married. If you find a good wife, you'll be happy; if not, you'll become a philosopher'.

                      'True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing'.
                      --Socrates
                      __________________________________________________
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
                      http://im.yahoo.com
                    • Danny F.
                      ... This is the tendency to asepticize and hide. Where all the flower s gone?.... Once I thought to the idea of having relaxing essential oils being diffused
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 29, 2000
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                        --- Demetrue@... wrote:
                        > From: Demetrue@...
                        >
                        > Danny, I have also noticed we have a problem with our sense of smell
                        > as well!
                        > At some point in childhood, it is like we close our noses :o), and
                        > by
                        > adolescenthood we are bathing away every human smell and masking it
                        > with
                        > artificial perfumes, so that we smell more like plastic Barbie dolls
                        > than
                        > real human beings! Has anyone else noticed that they don;t fully
                        > indulge
                        > their sense of smell?

                        This is the tendency to asepticize and hide.

                        Where all the flower's gone?....

                        Once I thought to the idea of having relaxing essential oils being
                        diffused in the subways and nice classical music, this would help
                        people relaxing before and after work, and maybe be more
                        open to the others and speak to each others...

                        There is someplace I think in Europe where they do have classical
                        music in public transportations.

                        Man has to become more of an earthlean and indulge in the flowers and
                        the earth, more than it's living-room, TV, and car. This would give
                        humans something in common: the earth.

                        Danny


                        =====
                        'There's a fine line between participation and mockery'.
                        --Scott Adams

                        'My advice to you is to get married. If you find a good wife, you'll be happy; if not, you'll become a philosopher'.

                        'True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing'.
                        --Socrates
                        __________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
                        http://im.yahoo.com
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