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Re: our materialistic culture and our self-complacent society...

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  • John Massengale
    ... I agree this is a complex question, to which I don t know the answer: my question was not rhetorical. After reading the responses, I have another question:
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 28 8:50 AM
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      > >and if we are all made in the
      >>likeness of the Godhead, then any murder would be tatamount to "murdering"
      >>God.... I think a big problem is that we do not yet recognize the divine
      >>within ourselves or within all human beings around us... IF we are truly
      >>supposed to work and evolve together, as Steiner implies, then one would
      >>allow these illegitimate souls to incarnate because we will not move
      >>forward
      >>unless we help them move forward as well....
      >
      > Amin-Amen-Aho!To recognize the divine, as you say, is key, the divine within
      > us, within all beings.--But again, i would not call certain incarnating
      > souls "illegitimate", for each soul is legitimate, if it is seen as of God,
      > and each has a part of the Divine Plan to fulfill.

      I agree this is a complex question, to which I don't know the answer: my
      question was not rhetorical.

      After reading the responses, I have another question: How much of this is
      compassion and how much spiritual science?

      We all have free will, and we can make the wrong decision. One can then go
      into the philosophical quandary of saying there are no wrong decisions. But
      there are better and worse decisions. Some lead to other planets, others
      lead to Atlantis's end. It does not seem to me that the end of Atlantis was
      the ideal divine plan. True or false?

      Steiner's statements about _unplanned_ births suggest that there was some
      legitimacy to the traditional view about "illegitimate" births, which is
      certainly not the contemporary pc version of the truth. Nor, perhaps, the
      version to which compassion would lead us. Nor does that mean that all
      births to unmarried parents are unplanned. Conversely, many unplanned births
      probably were to married couples.

      John Massengale
    • Demetrue@aol.com
      Aha! John, your question about legitimacy led me off the topic of why there is so much violence among American youth today.... Now Steiner passed away 50 years
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 28 11:05 AM
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        Aha! John, your question about legitimacy led me off the topic of why there
        is so much violence among American youth today.... Now Steiner passed away 50
        years before abortion was legalized in America (not that abortions were not
        performed before the 1970s in America, but the numbers performed before that
        time were very low compared to the 2 million a year that are now performed in
        this country).. Now here is what I was thinking.... Steiner was lecturing in
        Germany right before a terrible evil impulse of death was about to grip
        Europe.... I believe what was going on in European culture may have been
        very different from what was transpiring in the United States... My
        grandmother, born in 1908, had told me that growing up in her time, there was
        such a sense of duty and work ethic that women usually did not "have time" to
        indulge in extramarital affairs, or seriously entertain the idea of divorce..
        it was understood that if you married (and you probably would have to for
        financial reasons), you would grin and bear the situation and you would
        probably have at least 4 children, and birth control meant that you and your
        husband slipped into a comfortable friendship where sex was not a regular
        occurrence ... also, the amount of manual labor involved in everyday survival
        (my grandmother grew up on the farm, like many Americans before
        industrialization became a way of life) consumed much of the sex drive and
        creative energies..... In middle class America at the time of Steiner, there
        was such a social stigma against becoming pregnant out of wedlock that the
        fear of social ostracism alone probably kept many young women from engaging
        in premarital sex.... This is what I am most interested in: At the time of
        Steiner, abortion and illegitimate births were at a very low level.... also
        industrialization and technology had not yet taken over most of our daily
        jobs.. also, youth violence and disrespect was rather low (HOWEVER, a whole
        generation of American teenagers (18-19) were about to go off to Europe in
        the idealistic cause of freeing the world from the death grip of Nazism and
        ironically die violent deaths for a noble cause).. Now let's see how the
        situation has reversed in our country: in the 1960s we have the sexual
        revolution where many societal taboos are broken, premarital sex becomes the
        norm, divorce rates rise to 1 out of every 2 marriages, abortion becomes
        legal and abortion rates rise to 2 million performed a year, or 50 million in
        the last 25+ years.... contraception become the norm ... the birth rate drops
        to 2.1 per family, yet the rate of illegitimate births and teen unwed
        pregnancy skyrockets.... we live in a time of unheralded peace (no great wars
        or noble causes to fight) and prosperity (supermarkets and appliances supply
        our every need, so that we have become useless button punchers).. here we are
        with our human bodies, but most of our tasks require minimal physical
        exertion.. the body feels almost superfluous now that machines give us this
        day our daily bread.. come to think of it, the spiritual connection also
        seems superfluous to the man that now sits before the altar of his big screen
        TV and who has lost any connection to the earth or the divine ... no wonder
        our youth feel alienated.. they are even alienated from their own bodies.. no
        wonder they no longer know why they are here or for what purpose they were
        created.... since we no longer have to exercise our wills or our spirits to
        survive on the earth, our youth may come to believe that everything was put
        here to serve them (rather than that they have come here to be of service)..
        as our wills and spirits become weakened from disuse, we start to live for
        hedonistic pleasure, substituting addictive physical pleasure for a genuine,
        connected relationship to the Divine... I think as we have lost our
        purposefulness as a society, youthful vitality and vigor is channeled into
        the short-circuited, convoluted service of violence and death, instead of
        being drawn upward into the service of life, the Divine, and humanity... We
        need to give our young people real, meaningful, purposeful WORK.....But we
        also need to be working along side of them....
      • Danny F.
        ... This is that the good normal thinking, and behaving people of North-America are neuroticaly going from one extreme to the other: The wood separateness of
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 28 1:43 PM
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          --- Demetrue@... wrote:
          > From: Demetrue@...

          > as our wills and spirits become weakened from disuse, we start to
          > live for
          > hedonistic pleasure, substituting addictive physical pleasure for a
          > genuine,
          > connected relationship to the Divine...

          This is that the good "normal" thinking, and behaving people of
          North-America are neuroticaly going from one extreme to the other:

          The wood separateness of Ahriman, or the sensual fusion of Lucifer.
          Where is content?, where is spirit?, where is dialogue? etc.

          We live in a culture that either of necessity, work, that's ok,
          or of "candies" and sensations(hedonism). This is that we've come to
          senselessly work for work(people doesn't know anything else to do as
          a human), or/and seek for pleasures. So why do the North-American
          work else then fulfilling his real needs of food, shelter and the
          like? He work work in order to do something, because the North-
          American feels he has to do something, and since this something(work)
          has become for him the everything, the North-American will be pleased

          to not have time for anything else and at the same time find his own
          value in such of an activity as working for working. The other pole
          arise out of the previous since the society is all-economy basically
          unfortunatly and humans also, so do the candies arise in form of
          different goods and social behaviors, for the western people value
          material goods a lot, and so the social behaviors that produce waves
          of stimulation in their astral body; shortly the ideas don't have much
          of a reality and that much value for the North American GENERALLY, for

          here we work and "eat" candies...

          I work, so I'm a respectable person of course(smile), and I'm also
          a "social" person in my candy seeking behaviour, an idea that doesn't
          taste anything and this is more of a dreamy nature, so I prefer to be
          a "respectable" worker, and of course, a candy eater; so would speak
          the North American really GENERALLY.

          There's even that pejorative expression '� la mode' in the school
          system here in Qu�bec 'CLOUD SHOVELLER' for the students going to
          study art, music, history, psychology and all those disciplines that
          are not tremendously economical, technologic or the like...

          Signs of our time: sophistication, simplistic, dryness,
          emotional outpourings, separateness, emptyness,
          etc.

          If you want my opinion the North American type is constantly repeating
          the Event of the Fall, trying to hide in the fashion of Adam and Eve
          in the Garden of Eden, and finally be bound to the earth and have to
          labor.


          God, it's good to know the Lord and Anthroposophy no?

          Danny


          =====
          'There's a fine line between participation and mockery'.
          --Scott Adams

          'My advice to you is to get married. If you find a good wife, you'll be happy; if not, you'll become a philosopher'.

          'True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing'.
          --Socrates
          __________________________________________________
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        • John Massengale
          ... What is this? I suspect that the image it is conjuring up for me is different than the one you intend. John Massengale
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 28 2:36 PM
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            > The wood separateness of Ahriman

            What is this? I suspect that the image it is conjuring up for me is
            different than the one you intend.

            John Massengale
          • Danny F.
            ... I was referring to the sense of separation between individuals; the wooden etheric body, which is the body of love when it is not wooden... I tried to coin
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 28 2:50 PM
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              --- John Massengale <john@...> wrote:
              > From: "John Massengale" <john@...>
              >
              > > The wood separateness of Ahriman
              >
              > What is this? I suspect that the image it is conjuring up for me is
              > different than the one you intend.
              >
              > John Massengale

              I was referring to the sense of separation between individuals;
              the wooden etheric body, which is the body of love when it is not
              wooden...

              I tried to coin a phrase, the above you quoted.

              Basically all the enlighten analysts, may they be psychoanalysts or
              psychologists and the like will tell you there's a tremendous problem
              in the west with the sense of touch and all that turns around it, this

              is merely the peak of the iceberg...

              Danny

              =====
              'There's a fine line between participation and mockery'.
              --Scott Adams

              'My advice to you is to get married. If you find a good wife, you'll be happy; if not, you'll become a philosopher'.

              'True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing'.
              --Socrates
              __________________________________________________
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            • Demetrue@aol.com
              Danny, I was thinking that we still must have that same Christic task of balancing the two thrusts of Lucifer and Ahriman.. Also, when America was more of an
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 28 3:00 PM
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                Danny, I was thinking that we still must have that same Christic task of
                balancing the two thrusts of Lucifer and Ahriman.. Also, when America was
                more of an agrarian society, the hard work was deeply connected to the earth
                and life,and I would guess was MOST satisfying.... If the farmer did NOT
                awake at the crack of dawn to milk the cows, there would be no milk for
                breakfast (I know this would be a non-issue to vegans, etc. but please bear
                with me).. if he did not plow the fields after the first thaw and rain, he
                would miss his window of opportunity to plant the grain.. IF he did not plant
                the grain by a certain date and lunar cycle, there would be no bread come
                winter time... THe earth and the seasonal weather patterns dictated all his
                physical labor and if he did not work hard, he and his family would literally
                starve to death.. if an animal was killed, every part of the animal was
                used.. to make gelatin, leather, glue, needles, soap, candles, even to make
                strings for stringed instruments... the internal organs were used to make
                vessels for carrying water or beverages (don;t mean to be gross here!), the
                intestines were used to stuff sausage, feathers were used for pillows and
                comforters.. there was a necessary cycle and rhythm of life, dictated by the
                earth, that modern society hass lost for the most part... today, our work is
                so far removed from the final product that of course we find it
                unsatisfying... now we merely work for symbols, like paper money and we use
                these symbols to buy clothing and food that we have absolutely NO connection
                to! WE did not grow the food, it comes to us in artifical packaging... we
                did not gather the wool or flax or cotton or silk to make our clothings, we
                did not spin the thread or weave the yarn.... No wonder we work and work and
                are never satisfied with the fruits of our labors.. I used to be that the
                labor itself gave us joy and satisfaction and the end product was well
                deserved.... Now our work (in white collar, corporate America) seems empty
                and meaningless, and the fruits are hollow and can never satisfy our
                appetites, so we falsely assume that if we just work harder and get MORE
                empty fruits, then we will be satisfied..... Of course, that work and those
                fruits will never satisfy our spiritual hunger to be fully human and
                connected...
              • Demetrue@aol.com
                Danny, I have also noticed we have a problem with our sense of smell as well! At some point in childhood, it is like we close our noses :o), and by
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 28 3:04 PM
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                  Danny, I have also noticed we have a problem with our sense of smell as well!
                  At some point in childhood, it is like we close our noses :o), and by
                  adolescenthood we are bathing away every human smell and masking it with
                  artificial perfumes, so that we smell more like plastic Barbie dolls than
                  real human beings! Has anyone else noticed that they don;t fully indulge
                  their sense of smell?
                • John Massengale
                  ... My image was related but different: of all of us living in isolation in our little cabins in the woods. All of the high school shootings have taken place
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 28 3:11 PM
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                    > I was referring to the sense of separation between individuals;
                    > the wooden etheric body, which is the body of love when it is not
                    > wooden...

                    My image was related but different: of all of us living in isolation in our
                    little cabins in the woods. All of the high school shootings have taken
                    place in exurbia, where adolescents have no social life without access to a
                    car.

                    Since most of them are too young to drive or can't afford a car, that is an
                    obvious social problem. Even when they do have a car, the local piazza is
                    usually a parking lot at a strip mall.

                    John Massengale
                  • Demetrue@aol.com
                    I don t know John.... I think they were living in the suburbs and had next door neighbors and social lives... I think part of the problem was they did not fit
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 28 4:02 PM
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                      I don't know John.... I think they were living in the suburbs and had next
                      door neighbors and social lives... I think part of the problem was they did
                      not fit in well with any of the popular groups, such as jocks, cheerleaders,
                      but they were able to find like-minded loners in pain on the Internet... (If
                      every state just had 2 or 3 melancholy violent minded children and each one
                      got on-line, you could easily have a group of 150 children coming together
                      and giving credence to their wrong-minded solutions of violence as a means to
                      solve their social problems.) Also, these children (in Colorado) did have
                      friends, and they were in one of the boy;s basements building bombs... I
                      think the greatest gap in social connections was between the parents and
                      those children ... though, I honestly think the parents had already given up
                      and really did not know what to do with their boys' behavior problems ... the
                      one boy had applied to enlist in the military (I am sure the parents had
                      hoped to channel his violent tendencies in a socially acceptable, monitored,
                      disciplined way), but he had just been rejected because he was being treated
                      for depression and apparently was on antidepressants. And then all hell
                      really did break loose... Who knows when or why the depression started.. who
                      knows if the medication was altering the child's consciousness.... It seems
                      he had already given himself over to the forces of darkness (looking for the
                      power and acceptance he felt was denied him by mainstream society) and became
                      enslaved by the very same power he had hoped to wield over others... just
                      another casualty of evil...
                    • Danny F.
                      ... Since you re an architect John, do you think that the ancient Greek model kind of thing where there was public places really, or even Europe I think in
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 28 7:24 PM
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                        --- John Massengale <john@...> wrote:
                        > From: "John Massengale" <john@...>
                        >
                        > > I was referring to the sense of separation between individuals;
                        > > the wooden etheric body, which is the body of love when it is not
                        > > wooden...
                        >
                        > My image was related but different: of all of us living in isolation
                        > in our
                        > little cabins in the woods. All of the high school shootings have
                        > taken
                        > place in exurbia, where adolescents have no social life without
                        > access to a
                        > car.
                        >
                        > Since most of them are too young to drive or can't afford a car, that
                        > is an
                        > obvious social problem. Even when they do have a car, the local
                        > piazza is
                        > usually a parking lot at a strip mall.
                        >
                        > John Massengale


                        Since you're an architect John, do you think that the ancient Greek
                        model kind of thing where there was public places really, or even
                        Europe I think in general is better than North America for that, could
                        offer a core(a heart) an alternative to North American cities where
                        the only likeness to a core is their major economical and business
                        like streets? I think there's actually a tendency to construct big
                        movie theater complex in the subburbs, but it seem to be far from
                        what is needed in terms of human interactions no. Are we too socially
                        sick to have cities promoting an architecture else then cement and
                        tar?
                        but have real nice places with gardens for example, that's not very
                        expensive flowers!!! I guess one of the argument would be that flowers

                        are not something useful. There's really only a sick brain logic to
                        say that Beauty is not useful, only a sick brain logic to push aside
                        the Good, the Beautiful, an the True; this is unfortunatly also the
                        economical logic of modern consciousnes...

                        Danny

                        =====
                        'There's a fine line between participation and mockery'.
                        --Scott Adams

                        'My advice to you is to get married. If you find a good wife, you'll be happy; if not, you'll become a philosopher'.

                        'True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing'.
                        --Socrates
                        __________________________________________________
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                        Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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                      • Danny F.
                        ... This is the tendency to asepticize and hide. Where all the flower s gone?.... Once I thought to the idea of having relaxing essential oils being diffused
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 29 2:18 PM
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                          --- Demetrue@... wrote:
                          > From: Demetrue@...
                          >
                          > Danny, I have also noticed we have a problem with our sense of smell
                          > as well!
                          > At some point in childhood, it is like we close our noses :o), and
                          > by
                          > adolescenthood we are bathing away every human smell and masking it
                          > with
                          > artificial perfumes, so that we smell more like plastic Barbie dolls
                          > than
                          > real human beings! Has anyone else noticed that they don;t fully
                          > indulge
                          > their sense of smell?

                          This is the tendency to asepticize and hide.

                          Where all the flower's gone?....

                          Once I thought to the idea of having relaxing essential oils being
                          diffused in the subways and nice classical music, this would help
                          people relaxing before and after work, and maybe be more
                          open to the others and speak to each others...

                          There is someplace I think in Europe where they do have classical
                          music in public transportations.

                          Man has to become more of an earthlean and indulge in the flowers and
                          the earth, more than it's living-room, TV, and car. This would give
                          humans something in common: the earth.

                          Danny


                          =====
                          'There's a fine line between participation and mockery'.
                          --Scott Adams

                          'My advice to you is to get married. If you find a good wife, you'll be happy; if not, you'll become a philosopher'.

                          'True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing'.
                          --Socrates
                          __________________________________________________
                          Do You Yahoo!?
                          Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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