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Islam

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  • Sarah
    Hello, I ve just been trying to catch up with the posts on this lists - so busy being a mum to a toddler, plus doing the Foundations course. Anyway, I read the
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 8, 2002
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      Hello,
      I've just been trying to catch up with the posts on this lists - so busy being a mum to a toddler, plus doing the Foundations course. Anyway, I read the Islam posts with much interest as I spent many years living and travelling in those parts of the world many years ago. I feel I really have an insider's viewpoint on Islam, but just don't have the time to really go into the subject. One point I'd like to add, though, is this; In the Islamic world, 96% of Moslems take Islam 'literally' (ref; Islamic Studies ANU). In the Christian world only about 2% of people, if that, take Christianity literally. Another point is that the Islamic god is not equated or even connected with 'love'. This was explained to me by a Swiss woman I knew during my travels who had converted to Islam - she said it took her a long time to grasp this. Also the 'god' of Islam only 'loves' certain 'deeds', ie fasting, praying, washing, going to Mecca etc. You are not just loved as you are - and I feel this is an important point when it comes to the person's evolution. There are so many other things I'd like to say, but as I said; no time! Here is a very interesting website run by moslem dissenters; http://www.secularislam.org/Default.htm
      Try to find the guy who runs the website's life story - can't remember his name - as well as anything written by him, and his interview on Radio National.
       
      Sorry for rushed nature of this email.
       
      Sarah
    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
      ... *******Literally = materialistically = Ahrimanically. It s fundamentalism that s always Ahrimanic, it just is easier with some religions than others. ...
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 8, 2002
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        sarahwh@... writes:
        >>> I read the Islam posts with much interest as I spent many years living and travelling in those parts of the world many years ago. I feel I really have an insider's viewpoint on Islam, but just don't have the time to really go into the subject. One point I'd like to add, though, is this; In the Islamic world, 96% of Moslems take Islam 'literally' (ref; Islamic Studies ANU). In the Christian world only about 2% of people, if that, take Christianity literally...



        *******Literally = materialistically = Ahrimanically. It's fundamentalism that's always Ahrimanic, it just is easier with some religions than others.


        >>>Another point is that the Islamic god is not equated or even connected with 'love'.

        This was explained to me by a Swiss woman I knew during my travels who had converted to Islam - she said it took her a long time to grasp this. Also the 'god' of Islam only 'loves' certain 'deeds', ie fasting, praying, washing, going to Mecca etc. You are not just loved as you are - and I feel this is an important point when it comes to the person's evolution.



        *******It also is what makes the distinction between a religion only of the 'Father' and one also of the 'Son'. It's why Western Christian civilization has evolved institutions of recognition of the value of each soul, where Islam has not.


        >>>Here is a very
        interesting website run by moslem dissenters;  

                 http://www.secularislam.org/Default.htm

        Try to find the guy who runs the website's life story - can't remember his name - as well as anything written by him, and his interview on Radio National.


        *******Thanks for that, Sarah; they sound like interesting people. That's what we need more of, to bring it out of the Dark Ages.
        -starman
      • Sören Groth
        ... fundamentalism ... others. That s true :-) ... http://www.secularislam.org/Default.htm ... That s ... What we don t need are the people they recommend
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 8, 2002
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          --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
          > sarahwh@t... writes:

          > *******Literally = materialistically = Ahrimanically. It's
          fundamentalism
          > that's always Ahrimanic, it just is easier with some religions than
          others.

          That's true :-)


          > >>>Here is a very > interesting website run by moslem dissenters;
          > <A HREF="http://www.secularislam.org/Default.htm">
          http://www.secularislam.org/Default.htm</A>>

          > *******Thanks for that, Sarah; they sound like interesting people.
          That's
          > what we need more of, to bring it out of the Dark Ages.
          > -starman

          What we don't need are the people they recommend on their link side,
          to fight one kind of fundamentalism by turning to another... like they
          say
          "The professional look of the site, and the fact that an official
          party has launched this campaign, will hopefully give it the impact it
          deserves." about their link to the swedish national-socialist party
          NationalDemokraterna ..
        • elaineupton2001
          Hello all of this thread, First let me say that I think it would be constructive to deal with the issue at hand and refrain from personal attacks (ie., as in
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 8, 2002
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            Hello all of this thread,

            First let me say that I think it would be constructive to deal with
            the issue at hand and refrain from personal attacks (ie., as
            in "Joel, the Judge" type of remarks, and so on that have been made
            here).

            Second, I wish to respond to Sarah's post (seconded, at least in
            part, by Starman?):

            Sarah writes:
            >((...))I read the Islam posts with much interest as I spent many
            >years living and travelling in those parts of the world many years
            >ago. I feel I really have an insider's viewpoint on Islam, but just
            >don't have the time to really go into the subject.
            *****

            I suggest that any number of us might have varying degrees of
            exposure to the peoples and cultures of the Islamic world, and yet I
            still would not accept that these exposures necessarily give one
            an "insider's view." The people who practice Islam, as Joel's post at
            least hinted at, are a vast, varied, and complex people. Over the
            years, I have had friends/students and acquaintances who call
            themselves Muslim. Among them is a range of views on war and peace,
            on following the tenets of the Koran (yes, a scripture that
            apparently is as contradictory--on the surface--as the Bible), and a
            range of approaches to love.
            *****

            Sarah's post:
            >One point I'd like to add, though, is this; In the Islamic world,
            >96% of Moslems take Islam 'literally' (ref; Islamic Studies ANU). In
            >the Christian world only about 2% of people, if that, take
            >Christianity literally.
            *****

            I don't know where you get your statistics, Sarah, but I doubt them
            seriously.

            Sarah's post:
            >Another point is that the Islamic god is not equated or even
            >connected with 'love'.
            *****

            I must say bluntly: this is not true. Why do I say this? As I said
            above, over the years I have known a range of Muslims, and many of
            them have practiced love. Moreover, I could point to Muslim stories
            (such as that of poet, Rabia) that are replete with love.
            *****

            Sarah's post:
            >This was explained to me by a Swiss woman I knew during my travels
            >who had converted to Islam - she said it took her a long time to
            >grasp this.
            *****

            This is the source of authority: a "Swiss woman"?!!! It took her
            a "long time" to grasp this absence of love? Hmmm....
            *****

            Sarah's post:
            >Also the 'god' of Islam only 'loves' certain 'deeds', ie fasting,
            >praying, washing, going to Mecca etc. You are not just loved as you
            >are - and I feel this is an important point when it comes to the
            >person's evolution.
            *****

            Again, experience with various Muslims and a fuller reading of
            Islamic teachings show this statement to be at least debatable if not
            downright erroneous.
            *****

            In this time of warmongering and racial profiling (at least in the
            U.S.), and in all times and places, may our hearts and minds and
            wills be opened to the workings of the Divine in all Beings....
            elaine
          • Sarah
            Elaine writes; I suggest that any number of us might have varying degrees of exposure to the peoples and cultures of the Islamic world, and yet I still would
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 8, 2002
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              Elaine writes;
              I suggest that any number of us might have varying degrees of
              exposure to the peoples and cultures of the Islamic world, and yet I
              still would not accept that these exposures necessarily give one
              an "insider's view." The people who practice Islam, as Joel's post at
              least hinted at, are a vast, varied, and complex people. Over the
              years, I have had friends/students and acquaintances who call
              themselves Muslim. Among them is a range of views on war and peace,
              on following the tenets of the Koran (yes, a scripture that
              apparently is as contradictory--on the surface--as the Bible), and a
              range of approaches to love.
              ~~~~~~
               
              Sarah's response;
              There is very little time and space here to write my life story, or even those 7 or 8 years I was very exposed to Islam. I don't want to go into all the intimate details of my 'sewing wild oats' past, but suffice to say that I've had some of the closest encounters possible for a non-moslem. I'm still in contact with some of the people I knew.

              Elaine says;
              I don't know where you get your statistics, Sarah, but I doubt them
              seriously.
               
              Sarah's response;
              the reference for the Islamic statistic was from Professor Amin Sakal of Australian National University, and I would agree to that from my experience. The Christian statistic was my own estimate, and I'm sure most would agree.


              Elaine says;
              This is the source of authority: a "Swiss woman"?!!! It took her
              a "long time" to grasp this absence of love? Hmmm....
               
              Sarah's response;
              OK, a little more detail here; she was a teacher of Islam, even to those who were born muslims, after having been given authoritiy from Mecca; a very privileged postion, and only for someone 'very' knowledgable and passionate about Islam. A very interesting person to talk to.


              Elaine says;
              As I said above, over the years I have known a range of Muslims, and many of them have practiced love. Moreover, I could point to Muslim stories
              (such as that of poet, Rabia) that are replete with love.
              Again, experience with various Muslims and a fuller reading of
              Islamic teachings show this statement to be at least debatable if not
              downright erroneous.
              Sarah's response;
              I've had experience with various muslims in various countries and social backgrounds, and it is unfortunately true. Of course they love their families and so on, but Allah is different; he is never ever to be referred to as 'Father' as in the christian bible, for instance. There are of course the Sufis, like the poet Rabia, who are the mystics and would fall into the very small percentage of those with symbolic understanding. But even Sufis have been bumped off or received death threats, as well as any moslem who criticises Islam openly. This does not happen in any other culture in the world. I've often discussed these issues with some close moslem friends, and they all have agreed with me. It's strange that they will almost start going into a whisper when it comes to talking about their doubts etc. Mostly, though, you will find them defending it to the eyeballs in public, even when evidence is right in front of them.

              Elaine says;
              In this time of warmongering and racial profiling (at least in the
              U.S.), and in all times and places, may our hearts and minds and
              wills be opened to the workings of the Divine in all Beings....
              elaine
               
              Sarah's response;
              I feel we can be of great help as far as 'peace' goes if we stop treating muslims like children who need to be protected. We in the western world don't feel the need to protect and defend, say, Catholics who have seen countless priests brought to trial for sex abuse. We know they can handle all the flack and criticism, and that positive change will eventually come out of it if we allow the church to go into a crisis. We need to start treating people of the Islamic world like adults as well - but this is often confused with racism - which it is not; in fact it is MORE racist to treat them like children and 'defend' them etc. Only when there can be open criticism on a social conditioning that has kept millions of people suppressed under poverty, dictatorships and mullahs and patriarchs etc, can they experience the much needed, and bursting to happen, Islamic Reformation.
               
              Have you had a good read of that website I sent; I think you'll be amazed at what some brave ex-muslims say.
            • Sören Groth
              ... I agree to this, any individual have to answer for his deeds, no matter which authorities he or she claim to be guided by. And wasn t that the point in
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 9, 2002
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                --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Sarah" <sarahwh@t...> wrote:


                > Sarah's response;
                > I feel we can be of great help as far as 'peace' goes if we stop
                >treating muslims like children who need to be protected.

                I agree to this, any individual have to answer for his deeds, no
                matter which "authorities" he or she claim to be guided by. And wasn't
                that the point in the defense ?? The whole thing started with an
                attack on Islam which from several implicated alomost a "white mans
                burden" to foster the arab world.

                I think the problem arises mixing up when Steiner talks about how
                certain things have developed into believing that this is a permanent
                state... it is true that the development of human rights and
                individual freedom have developed thanks to certain conditions within
                european culture... but this does not mean that these certain
                conditions continue to be determining factors.

                And the less productive way to adress "deeds" which enslave peoples
                free mind in other cultures, is to make it into a battle of beliefs of
                terminology.

                One of the things I really like about Mr. Steiner is his ability to
                talk about the same things in different terms, how he adress people
                with images of their own, to make them see things in a new way.

                To dismiss the whole islamic terminology as worthless is absurd. How
                will you do in a waldorf school in Palestine, teach the kids german,
                read Grimm for them and throw away their musical instruments telling
                them that they need to play the violin.... ??

                With a fluent, living thinking it is of course possible to express
                the christic event within the scope of any cultural background.
                Dear me, my personal path has become to express the insights I get
                true the workers movement. (Which Mr. Steiner forunatedly also did in
                GA 330 and 331). And I don't start out condemning the whole
                terminology and call them godless barbarians for a strat when
                adressing the issues.

                > We in the western world don't feel the need to protect and defend,
                >say, Catholics who have seen countless priests brought to trial for
                >sex abuse.

                Again here you attack the "deeds", you don't claim it to be the result
                of the catholic faith and christianity to sexually abuse...

                > We need to start treating people of the Islamic world like adults as
                >well - but this is often confused with racism -

                Only if it is stated that it is a generic problem. Adult treatment is
                to critisize dogmatism, it's non-generic to do so. But if someone
                defends dogmatic christianity indicating that it has a quality that
                dogmatic islam hasn't then it starts getting a bit fishy... and even
                if it's true a very useless, non-practical appoach to the situation.

                >Only when there can be open criticism on a social conditioning that
                >has kept millions of people suppressed under poverty, dictatorships
                >and mullahs and patriarchs etc, can they experience the much needed,
                >and bursting to happen, Islamic Reformation.

                Yes but this criticism has too be open, and preferably based on
                universal human pinciples and values. Again may be that certain
                factors in western culture was the conditions for these universal
                human values to be consciouss, but as soon as they have been
                manifested and taken into the consciouss thinking they are no longer
                generic to western culture, they belong to the universal man.

                That is also why it is important that the US don't have to much
                "will" in these matters, but have some patience with the too much
                "head" of Europe, and don't bargain with the "heart" of the third world.

                I don't defend a mullah proclaiming some barbarian punishment on a
                woman, but I can forgive him as he do not know what he is doing.. if
                he's an illiterate old bastard in some remote village and never heard
                of the declaration of human rights
                Isn't it more of a crime when the leaders of the western civilisation
                make bargains, as it is happening in the security council.
                If you give us the right to violate the principles there, we'll give
                you the right to violate them somewhere else ... I can not forgive
                them, because they know what they are doing.
                They have left out their heart.

                Sören
              • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                What I notice in this thread is how so many people seem to want to run away from and not address what Steiner said in the lecture quote that started it. It s
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 9, 2002
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                  What I notice in this thread is how so many people seem to want to run away from and not address what Steiner said in the lecture quote that started it. It's one of the 6 basic exercises to look at things and consider if they may be true even if they contradict your biases, as insights from anthroposophy (like these below) often do.

                  = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
                  Excerpt from a lecture by Rudolf Steiner
                  September 1924 / Switzerland
                  From one basic way of considering this matter, there are two
                  realms: the realm of NATURE – which is the realm of the Father
                  (the source of the created world both spiritually and physically) –
                  and the realm of the SPIRIT.
                  The Mohammedan teachings do not know the structure of the
                  world I have just been speaking about. They know – and can
                  ONLY know – the Father.
                  They know only the rigid doctrine: "There is one God, Allah, and
                  none beside him, and Mohammed is his Prophet."
                  From this angle, the teachings of Mohammed are the strongest
                  polarity to Christianity.
                  Indeed, resident in a hidden manner within the Islamic
                  worldview is the will to do away with all freedom forever, the will
                  to bring about a purely deterministic spiritual and social order
                  that would dominate every aspect of human life, for nothing else
                  is possible if you imagine the world solely in the sense of a
                  Father God alone.
                  A foreboding of this gave the apocalypse-writer (John) the
                  feeling: The human being cannot be found, or find himself, in
                  this. The human being cannot become filled through and
                  through with Christ if he remains connected with the doctrine of
                  the Father (alone).
                  Restricted to this, the human being cannot take hold of his own
                  humanness. He fails to become fully human if he is only able to
                  conceive the Father God.
                  In the end, the human being only becomes human by making
                  Christ alive within himself and thereby gaining protection from
                  the material conviction that spiritual realities are illusionary and
                  vaporous epi-phenomena of purely material causes.
                  Entertainment of the doctrine of the Father (alone) inescapably
                  arrives at a conceptual materialism such as represented, for
                  example, by Darwinism, the view that the human being arises
                  from purely material causes.
                  And if we regard Christianity primarily as that which accords with
                  the Sun forces spiritually speaking, and such as is reflected /
                  mirrored / mediated / manifested by the nine ranks of angelic
                  Hierarchies, then we may identify that which OPPOSES these
                  spiritual/sun forces as "anti-sun" forces or as  "sun demon."
                  This "sun demon" works COUNTER to the Christian principle in
                  such a way that – if a human being were to succumb to the lures
                  of the sun demon and his inspiration, then that same human
                  being would – by his own free choice – surrender all inward
                  connection to the divinity of Christ for an inward connection with
                  the sub-human spiritual realms.
                  The apocalyptist saw this. – He felt and saw the mighty (future)
                  counter-principle of Arabism bursting in on Christianity.
                  It was clear to him that, from this Arabism, everything arises that
                  brings the human being close to the purely animal nature, first of
                  all in his views, but gradually also in his combined impulses of
                  will and action.
                  And what the apocalyptist saw BEHIND the future scenes of the
                  looming Mohammdan historical impulse was the sun demon at
                  work, working against the sun forces, against the spiritual
                  sun-intelligence.
                  If asked, the apocalyptist would have called the representatives
                  of Arabism in Europe "human beings who have willingly
                  dedicated themselves to the sun demon in their souls' nature."
                  Dear friends, the number 666 represented both the NAME and
                  the TIME when Arabism would flow into Christianity in order to
                  impress the seal of materialism upon western culture.
                  The apocalyptist portrays everything that works as a
                  counter-principle to Christianity – such as Arabism and its
                  deterministic conceptual constructs – as direct outflow from the
                  counter-spirituality represented by the sun-demon Surat.
                  And, in the final analysis, everything flowing from Arabism was
                  directed ultimately against a spiritual Christian understanding of
                  transubstantiation. External facts certainly do not look as if this
                  were the case but – by allotting validity only to the Father principle
                  – to the natural world-order, the sun demon forces indeed
                  intended to sweep away from human view an immediate feeling
                  for that which is active in the very deepest way in a sacrament
                  such as transubstantiation.
                  (The great revolutions that came about in Europe as a result of
                  the Crusades belong under the sign of the SECOND occurrence
                  of the number 666….)
                  During the first 666, dear friends, Surat was still hidden but
                  actively at work within the external process of outward events; he
                  was not seen in clear outward manifestation.
                  Now before us [in 1924] lies the time of the third number 666:
                  1998 A.D.
                  At the end of this (the twentieth) century, the time will come when
                  Surat will ONCE AGAIN raise his head most strongly out of the
                  waves of history.
                  Only two-thirds of the 20th century will have still to run before
                  Surat/Sorat once again raises his head most mightily.
                  Before this (twentieth) century is out, he will show himself
                  through his appearance in many human beings as the one by
                  whom many are "possessed."
                  Human beings will appear of whom it will be impossible to
                  believe that they are really human beings.
                  These Surat-inspired human beings will be recognizable by their
                  external appearance; in a terrible way they will not only scoff at
                  everything, but will also oppose, and want to destroy, and to
                  push into the abyss anything that is spiritual.
                  Outwardly, they will have intense and strong dispositions, with
                  savage countenances, and with furious destructiveness in their
                  emotions.
                  The intention to sweep-away anything spiritual will be
                  deep-seated in large numbers of earthly souls, just as the
                  apocalyptist has foreseen in the beast-like countenance, and the
                  beast-like strength, that will underlie the deeds of the adversary
                  over against the spiritual.
                  Even today, hidden rage against spiritual things is already
                  immense, yet it is still in its very early infancy in contrast to what
                  is to come.
                  - - - - - - - - - -
                • Br. Ron
                  At the risk of further offending the every religion is true crowd, the way I see it is this: 1. Ahriman is about creating borders and boundaries. 2. Lucifer
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 9, 2002
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                    At the risk of further offending the "every religion is true'
                    crowd, the way I see it is this:
                     
                    1. Ahriman is about
                        creating borders and boundaries.
                     
                    2. Lucifer is about
                        dissolving borders and boundaries.
                     
                    3. Christ, the Sun of God is about standing
                        between these two polarities and choosing
                        the right one at the right time. (It could almost be
                        said that Christ is about synchronous and harmonious
                        timing)
                     
                    If I am correct in this, then pure Buddhism tends toward
                    the Luciferic, while pure Islam tends toward the Ahrimanic.
                    Either path, by itself, devoid of the equilibrating quality of Christ,
                    must eventually prove destructive to the soul.
                     
                    IMO, this is what Steiner was talking about.
                     
                    Br. Ron
                     
                     
                     
                     
                  • elaineupton2001
                    Dear Sarah and all interested in this thread of Islam, Thank you, Sarah, for taking the time to reply to points in my post. We are not in agreement ((on
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 9, 2002
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                      Dear Sarah and all interested in this thread of Islam,

                      Thank you, Sarah, for taking the time to reply to points in my post.
                      We are not in agreement ((on certain things, not all but certain
                      things)) about Islam, yet I do accept that what you have experienced
                      is important, and I feel that because you reply with care, we might
                      one day find a meeting ground.

                      I would like to comment on what you say at the end of your post
                      replying to me:

                      First, to repeat what I said at the end of my previous post, and
                      then your reply, and after that my present comment:
                      >
                      > Elaine says (previous post);
                      > In this time of warmongering and racial profiling (at least in the
                      > U.S.), and in all times and places, may our hearts and minds and
                      > wills be opened to the workings of the Divine in all Beings....
                      > elaine
                      >
                      > Sarah's response (to Elaine's previous post);
                      > I feel we can be of great help as far as 'peace' goes if we stop
                      >treating muslims like children who need to be protected. We in the
                      >western world don't feel the need to protect and defend, say,
                      >Catholics who have seen countless priests brought to trial for sex
                      >abuse. We know they can handle all the flack and criticism, and
                      >that positive change will eventually come out of it if we allow the
                      >church to go into a crisis. We need to start treating people of the
                      >Islamic world like adults as well - but this is often confused with
                      >racism - which it is not; in fact it is MORE racist to treat them
                      >like children and 'defend' them etc. Only when there can be open
                      >criticism on a social conditioning that has kept millions of people
                      >suppressed under poverty, dictatorships and mullahs and patriarchs
                      >etc, can they experience the much needed, and bursting to happen,
                      >Islamic Reformation.


                      My reply today (9 Oct.):

                      I agree that it is important to stop treating muslims like children
                      (if that is what people are doing). But perhaps we do not agree
                      about what it means to "treat muslims like children." I have no
                      intention of treating muslims like children, so much so that that is
                      not even an issue for me. To "treat muslims like children", in my
                      view, would be to excuse evil doing committed by (some) muslims, to
                      assume that they are not responsible for their actions. I do not
                      choose this path, not even with a real child. I think even a real
                      child can be on the path to learning, in stages, responsibility. I
                      am convinced that certain muslims (the 9/11 murderers, for example)
                      are deeply responsible for their actions....and that a tremendous
                      load of karma is involved here.

                      The issue for me, as I said, is not one of "treating muslims like
                      children", but of thinking openly and clearly, reaching beyond bias
                      and racial/cultural profiling. All muslims are not evildoers--
                      murderers, etc. All muslims are not people who blindly follow rules.
                      All muslims are not without love. All muslims do not perceive or
                      conceive of Allah as a being separate from Love. (As a matter of
                      fact, the muslims I know, and they are not only sufis, express deep
                      love in their lives and they express an understanding of Allah as a
                      great being of great Love, maybe not Love in the way some
                      western/Christian ears are accustomed to hearing, maybe...--this is
                      partly about cultural differences, and that is a big subject...))

                      I think it is dangerous to make these negative generalizations (ones
                      made by various and sundry people) about Islam or about followers of
                      Islam (muslims)--generalizations about their relationship to Allah
                      and Love, about their following rules blindly, and their committing
                      acts of oppression, terror, etc.

                      Often it is easier to look at the "other", to criticize and
                      scapegoat the "other", and in the national climate of the U.S. right
                      now, this prominent "other" is Muslim, often brown-skinned, often
                      Arab. large numbers of these people are arrested without charges and
                      without due process, and harrassed in various ways, in a country
                      that calls itself a democracy. Further, we focus on the other,
                      rather than on our own responbility, in that we have our terrorist
                      bad guy of the year, or of the month--like flavors of the month--
                      Gadafi of Libya one year, or Palestinian Arafat, and then, oh,
                      whatever happened to the NUMBER I evil: Osama Bin Laden? Then
                      there's Saddam Hussein, in the early 90's, and once again. Or, it's
                      a group--The Taliban or Al-Queda...(even though once the Taliban
                      were our allies, and even though once the present Secretary of War,
                      Donald Rumsfeld, was an emissary to make deals with Iraq under Sadam
                      Hussein, that same cruel tyrant, Sadam Hussein, cruel then as now.--)

                      Yes, there seems to be lots of evidence that Sadam Hussein is a
                      cruel tyrant. I am not excusing him, not treating him as though he
                      is not responsible for his actions. He is responsible. And then so
                      are those that the U.S. government favors, or ones the President-
                      Select Bush favors, or that he does not go after with the threat of
                      pre-emptive strikes( one like China, Indonesia in the past years,
                      etc.). We point to the "others" --we, the U.S. government--point to
                      the "others" we don't like for some reason (in the case of Sadam
                      Hussein, he controls vast oil resources, and he is not only
                      allegedly a cruel tyrant, but also one who does not favor giving the
                      U.S. access to Iraq's vast oil reserves.

                      Tyrant? Dictator? If the U.S. strikes Iraq, preemptively, and if
                      Congress gives away its powers, essential powers in the functioning
                      of a democracy, and allows Bush to strike pre-emptively without the
                      approval of Congress, then we have abdicated democracy. We have
                      already given away our cooperation in the international community
                      when we (the U.s. government) consider striking Iraq without even
                      waiting to see what the U.N. resolutions will be (although we are
                      members of the U.N., and although nations around the globe oppose
                      our pre-emptive strike plan). I could go on with how President
                      Select Bush does not participate democratically in the international
                      community, through his rejection of the Kyoto protocol, standards
                      for the International Court, and so on...Dictator?--Attorney General
                      John Ashcroft and his agents throw Arabs and sympathizers in jail
                      left and right, without, as i said, due process and all the workings
                      of democracy. I could go on about how Bush was selected, not
                      elected, and the criminality of the Florida elections. I could go on
                      about how Bush raves about Sadam Hussein's cruelties, when there are
                      many cruelties in this country and its governmental policies (a
                      government controlled in large part by corporations), cruelties and
                      abuses that don't make the regular news, and ones that do make the
                      news but without real consequence (ie., the gross criminality of
                      certain corporate CEO's which goes unpunished, while the use of
                      drugs by certain people of certain groups is highly criminalized,
                      etc.).

                      Tyrant? Dictator? Cruel? Unloving? A lot of what Bush and Ashcroft
                      and posse do is done in the name of religion: Christianity. So if we
                      are to point fingers at followers of Islam, the "other", let us also
                      look at the "self". Let us reach beyond scapegoating and covering up
                      our own sins. Yes, people commit crimes--Muslim or Christian (or Jew
                      in the case of Ariel Sharon and others)--are all responsible, and I
                      cannot justify going to war against Iraq or Afghanistan, and I
                      cannot justify racial profiling and imprisoning people in
                      undemocratic ways. This is what is happening here at home, not just
                      with the "other" that the leaders of this country scapegoat.

                      Yes, I can read about ex-muslims talking about the cruelties and
                      problems in their former religion. Likewise, I can read about ex-
                      Catholics, ex-this and that talking about problems and horrors. I
                      can read about Israelis who are ashamed of the policies and
                      practices of the Sharon government and the Israeli Defense Force
                      (the Israeli murder force). That still does not justify blanket
                      generalizations about something so large and complex as Islam,
                      anymore than I could justify making such generalizations about
                      something so large and complex as the practices of Christianity.

                      So, in closing, I repeat: the issue for me is not one of treating
                      muslims like children, but rather one of taking responsibility for
                      our own crimes, and finding a way to work with all nations and
                      peoples for the upliftment of the human race.

                      With Gratitude and Best wishes,
                      elaine
                    • elaineupton2001
                      Hello starman and all of this thread: ... run away ... started it. ... if they may ... anthroposophy ... And then you go on to quote (the previously quoted on
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 9, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hello starman and all of this thread:

                        Starman, you write:

                        --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
                        > What I notice in this thread is how so many people seem to want to
                        run away
                        > from and not address what Steiner said in the lecture quote that
                        started it.
                        > It's one of the 6 basic exercises to look at things and consider
                        if they may
                        > be true even if they contradict your biases, as insights from
                        anthroposophy
                        > (like these below) often do.


                        And then you go on to quote (the previously quoted on this list)
                        what Steiner says about Islam ("Mohammedanism") and Father vs.
                        Spirit, and what Steiner says about Islam being a religion whose
                        thrust is toward a social determinism and a lack of freedom.--

                        Now, it may seem, as per my posts to Sarah, for example, that I am
                        one who is biased for, or one who is an apologist for Islam. Let me
                        say that I am neither for or against "it", per se, because it--it?--
                        is not such a simple matter to me. What I am for is to go beyond the
                        consequences of negative generalizations about Islam (be they from
                        Steiner or anyone else; and it seems to me that Steiner--Herr Doktor-
                        - was not always right, so I am more concerned about our present
                        world crisis with regard to the U.S.'s imperialist behavior toward
                        many muslims than in following some dubious words of Steiner, though
                        Steiner--or the one who was Steiner-- is dear to me). Moreover, I am
                        for seeking the Divine in all beings, and seeking to understand the
                        contributions that the Arabic world (where many people live as
                        followers of Islam) has made and makes to the world as a whole.
                        Further, I am seeking to be awake to the ills committed --by my
                        ogvernment--in the name of Christianity or freedom, as seen in
                        opposition to Islam or Islamic peoples (as in the cases of racial
                        profiling and warmongering in the U.S., things that I pointed to in
                        the reply to Sarah).

                        So, as for your comment about people looking at and considering
                        whether something is true, regardless of whether it contradicts
                        people's biases, I would say that this is an important point you
                        make, and suggest you consider following this practice yourself. I
                        say also to myself to seek truth and examine my own biases.

                        --In regards to what Steiner said about Islam, I have no
                        verification that what he said is truth. Steiner advised us to
                        examine what he said and to seek verification, not to follow him
                        blindly (something very relevant to the subject at hand, and
                        something Joel pointed out in his post about following a concept
                        without having the attendant percept). So, I do not follow Steiner
                        blindly. I have found Steiner to be a being of great wisdom--and I
                        am grateful for this, but still I will not follow him blindly. As
                        for what he says about "Mohammedanism", I do examine what may be my
                        biases. I look closely at Islamic people that I know, and they are
                        varied. I look at the Q'ran and at people's relationship to the
                        Q'ran. I am no expert, and can only go on what I see--and I seek to
                        carefully understand--so far. *Some* Muslims are about following
                        rules blindly, about rejection of freedom, and some are not. Perhaps
                        many are about following rules blindly, but even if they are, that
                        is not the end of the story. There is development going on. The same
                        can be said of many and various Christians, that many follow rules
                        blindly and have varied readings of the Bible--many (be they Roman
                        Catholics or Southern Baptists or others who call themselves
                        Christian, such as John Ashcroft and George WWIII Bush--WWWIII, as
                        in World War III). Many so-called Christians follow George WWIII
                        Bush blindly and sound the drums of war, thoughtlessly. In the U.S.
                        (and among westerners and so-called Christians), we often have the
                        ILLUSION of freedom, or of following a path of freedom (and of a
                        related political/social democracy). Yet, many many of us are
                        controlled by corporatism and by the religion of the economy. Big
                        corporations control much of the media, not just through
                        advertisements (which is already no small thing0, but also through
                        ownership of the media and directing the media toward promulgation
                        of mindless consumerism and lack of critical thinking about issues
                        (such as the role of oil in the quest for a pre-emptive strike on
                        Iraq and the scapegoating of Muslim peoples).

                        Yes, Islamic peoples (some of them) commit crimes and live lives
                        that deny freedom. This is a karmic issue, a very large one. The
                        same is true for peoples of the West, the U.S. and Britian and
                        Germany and Sweden and so on. Only in the U.S., we have this
                        ILLUSION, as I said, of freedom.

                        Indeed, for me practicing the six exercises is important, not just
                        because Steiner suggested them, but because I have found them to be
                        of value in my life. To practice the one of looking unbiasedly is
                        certainly important, and if it is important to you, then may you be
                        well in the practice of this.

                        In gratitude,
                        elaine
                      • Pacbay
                        What specific lecture is this taken from and from what cycle ? On the surface, the political and social predictions seem very prophetic and accurate. thanks.
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 10, 2002
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                          What specific lecture is this taken from and from what cycle ?
                           
                          On the surface, the political and social predictions seem very prophetic and accurate.
                           
                          thanks.
                           
                          Jeff
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 7:45 AM
                          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: Islam

                          What I notice in this thread is how so many people seem to want to run away from and not address what Steiner said in the lecture quote that started it. It's one of the 6 basic exercises to look at things and consider if they may be true even if they contradict your biases, as insights from anthroposophy (like these below) often do.

                          = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
                          Excerpt from a lecture by Rudolf Steiner
                          September 1924 / Switzerland
                          From one basic way of considering this matter, there are two
                          realms: the realm of NATURE – which is the realm of the Father
                          (the source of the created world both spiritually and physically) –
                          and the realm of the SPIRIT.
                          The Mohammedan teachings do not know the structure of the
                          world I have just been speaking about. They know – and can
                          ONLY know – the Father.
                        • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                          pacbay@attbi.com writes: What specific lecture is this taken from and from what cycle ? ... *******It was originally posted by lightsearcher1@yahoo.com, on
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 10, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            pacbay@... writes:

                                What specific lecture is this taken from and from what cycle ?
                            On the surface, the political and social predictions seem very prophetic and accurate. 
                            thanks.
                            Jeff


                            *******It was originally posted by lightsearcher1@..., on Oct. 4th. As it says Sept. 1924, which was the last month Steiner was strong enough to give lectures, it must have been one of the last he ever gave.

                            = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
                            Excerpt from a lecture by Rudolf Steiner
                            September 1924 / Switzerland
                            From one basic way of considering this matter, there are two
                            realms: the realm of NATURE – which is the realm of the Father
                            (the source of the created world both spiritually and physically) –
                            and the realm of the SPIRIT.
                            The Mohammedan teachings do not know the structure of the
                            world I have just been speaking about. They know – and can
                            ONLY know – the Father.
                            They know only the rigid doctrine: "There is one God, Allah, and
                            none beside him, and Mohammed is his Prophet."
                            From this angle, the teachings of Mohammed are the strongest
                            polarity to Christianity.
                            Indeed, resident in a hidden manner within the Islamic
                            worldview is the will to do away with all freedom forever, the will
                            to bring about a purely deterministic spiritual and social order
                            that would dominate every aspect of human life, for nothing else
                            is possible if you imagine the world solely in the sense of a
                            Father God alone.
                            A foreboding of this gave the apocalypse-writer (John) the
                            feeling: The human being cannot be found, or find himself, in
                            this. The human being cannot become filled through and
                            through with Christ if he remains connected with the doctrine of
                            the Father (alone).
                            Restricted to this, the human being cannot take hold of his own
                            humanness. He fails to become fully human if he is only able to
                            conceive the Father God.
                            In the end, the human being only becomes human by making
                            Christ alive within himself and thereby gaining protection from
                            the material conviction that spiritual realities are illusionary and
                            vaporous epi-phenomena of purely material causes.
                            Entertainment of the doctrine of the Father (alone) inescapably
                            arrives at a conceptual materialism such as represented, for
                            example, by Darwinism, the view that the human being arises
                            from purely material causes.
                            And if we regard Christianity primarily as that which accords with
                            the Sun forces spiritually speaking, and such as is reflected /
                            mirrored / mediated / manifested by the nine ranks of angelic
                            Hierarchies, then we may identify that which OPPOSES these
                            spiritual/sun forces as "anti-sun" forces or as  "sun demon."
                            This "sun demon" works COUNTER to the Christian principle in
                            such a way that – if a human being were to succumb to the lures
                            of the sun demon and his inspiration, then that same human
                            being would – by his own free choice – surrender all inward
                            connection to the divinity of Christ for an inward connection with
                            the sub-human spiritual realms.
                            The apocalyptist saw this. – He felt and saw the mighty (future)
                            counter-principle of Arabism bursting in on Christianity.
                            It was clear to him that, from this Arabism, everything arises that
                            brings the human being close to the purely animal nature, first of
                            all in his views, but gradually also in his combined impulses of
                            will and action.
                            And what the apocalyptist saw BEHIND the future scenes of the
                            looming Mohammdan historical impulse was the sun demon at
                            work, working against the sun forces, against the spiritual
                            sun-intelligence.
                            If asked, the apocalyptist would have called the representatives
                            of Arabism in Europe "human beings who have willingly
                            dedicated themselves to the sun demon in their souls' nature."
                            Dear friends, the number 666 represented both the NAME and
                            the TIME when Arabism would flow into Christianity in order to
                            impress the seal of materialism upon western culture.
                            The apocalyptist portrays everything that works as a
                            counter-principle to Christianity – such as Arabism and its
                            deterministic conceptual constructs – as direct outflow from the
                            counter-spirituality represented by the sun-demon Surat.
                            And, in the final analysis, everything flowing from Arabism was
                            directed ultimately against a spiritual Christian understanding of
                            transubstantiation. External facts certainly do not look as if this
                            were the case but – by allotting validity only to the Father principle
                            – to the natural world-order, the sun demon forces indeed
                            intended to sweep away from human view an immediate feeling
                            for that which is active in the very deepest way in a sacrament
                            such as transubstantiation.
                            (The great revolutions that came about in Europe as a result of
                            the Crusades belong under the sign of the SECOND occurrence
                            of the number 666….)
                            During the first 666, dear friends, Surat was still hidden but
                            actively at work within the external process of outward events; he
                            was not seen in clear outward manifestation.
                            Now before us [in 1924] lies the time of the third number 666:
                            1998 A.D.
                            At the end of this (the twentieth) century, the time will come when
                            Surat will ONCE AGAIN raise his head most strongly out of the
                            waves of history.
                            Only two-thirds of the 20th century will have still to run before
                            Surat/Sorat once again raises his head most mightily.
                            Before this (twentieth) century is out, he will show himself
                            through his appearance in many human beings as the one by
                            whom many are "possessed."
                            Human beings will appear of whom it will be impossible to
                            believe that they are really human beings.
                            These Surat-inspired human beings will be recognizable by their
                            external appearance; in a terrible way they will not only scoff at
                            everything, but will also oppose, and want to destroy, and to
                            push into the abyss anything that is spiritual.
                            Outwardly, they will have intense and strong dispositions, with
                            savage countenances, and with furious destructiveness in their
                            emotions.
                            The intention to sweep-away anything spiritual will be
                            deep-seated in large numbers of earthly souls, just as the
                            apocalyptist has foreseen in the beast-like countenance, and the
                            beast-like strength, that will underlie the deeds of the adversary
                            over against the spiritual.
                            Even today, hidden rage against spiritual things is already
                            immense, yet it is still in its very early infancy in contrast to what
                            is to come.
                            - - - - - - - - - -
                          • Pacbay
                            I, for one, would like to see these in English and if possible have then posted in the archives or at Elib for download. Anyone care to step forward with the
                            Message 13 of 29 , Oct 10, 2002
                            • 0 Attachment
                              
                              I, for one, would like to see these in English and if possible have then posted in the archives or at Elib for download. Anyone care to step forward with the material? From the brief section we have seen there is much to ponder in these.
                               
                               
                              jeff
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:55 PM
                              Subject: R: [anthroposophy] Re: Islam

                              Hi Starman and Jeff,
                              the quote is from a lecture held on 20 Sept.1924.  The cycle  (ga 346)is  entitled "From John's Revelation"  and it has 18  powerful lectures dedicated to Christiangemainschaft's priests.  The lectures- deeply esoteric as you can see- have not been published till the end of 1980s. Presently there are only private typescript translations in languages different from German.
                              J.B.Aharon did study some topic of the lectures in order to write his "Spiritual Event".
                               
                              ANDREA 
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 9:19 PM
                              Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: Islam

                              pacbay@... writes:

                                  What specific lecture is this taken from and from what cycle ?
                              On the surface, the political and social predictions seem very prophetic and accurate. 
                              thanks.
                              Jeff


                              *******It was originally posted by lightsearcher1@..., on Oct. 4th. As it says Sept. 1924, which was the last month Steiner was strong enough to give lectures, it must have been one of the last he ever gave.

                              = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
                              Excerpt from a lecture by Rudolf Steiner
                              September 1924 / Switzerland
                              From one basic way of considering this matter, there are two
                              realms: the realm of NATURE – which is the realm of the Father
                              (the source of the created world both spiritually and physically) –
                              and the realm of the SPIRIT.
                              The Mohammedan teachings do not know the structure of the
                              world I have just been speaking about. They know – and can
                              ONLY know – the Father.
                              They know only the rigid doctrine: "There is one God, Allah, and
                              none beside him, and Mohammed is his Prophet."
                              From this angle, the teachings of Mohammed are the strongest
                              polarity to Christianity.
                              Indeed, resident in a hidden manner within the Islamic
                              worldview is the will to do away with all freedom forever, the will
                              to bring about a purely deterministic spiritual and social order
                              that would dominate every aspect of human life, for nothing else
                              is possible if you imagine the world solely in the sense of a
                              Father God alone.
                              A foreboding of this gave the apocalypse-writer (John) the
                              feeling: The human being cannot be found, or find himself, in
                              this. The human being cannot become filled through and
                              through with Christ if he remains connected with the doctrine of
                              the Father (alone).
                              Restricted to this, the human being cannot take hold of his own
                              humanness. He fails to become fully human if he is only able to
                              conceive the Father God.
                              In the end, the human being only becomes human by making
                              Christ alive within himself and thereby gaining protection from
                              the material conviction that spiritual realities are illusionary and
                              vaporous epi-phenomena of purely material causes.
                              Entertainment of the doctrine of the Father (alone) inescapably
                              arrives at a conceptual materialism such as represented, for
                              example, by Darwinism, the view that the human being arises
                              from purely material causes.
                              And if we regard Christianity primarily as that which accords with
                              the Sun forces spiritually speaking, and such as is reflected /
                              mirrored / mediated / manifested by the nine ranks of angelic
                              Hierarchies, then we may identify that which OPPOSES these
                              spiritual/sun forces as "anti-sun" forces or as  "sun demon."
                              This "sun demon" works COUNTER to the Christian principle in
                              such a way that – if a human being were to succumb to the lures
                              of the sun demon and his inspiration, then that same human
                              being would – by his own free choice – surrender all inward
                              connection to the divinity of Christ for an inward connection with
                              the sub-human spiritual realms.
                              The apocalyptist saw this. – He felt and saw the mighty (future)
                              counter-principle of Arabism bursting in on Christianity.
                              It was clear to him that, from this Arabism, everything arises that
                              brings the human being close to the purely animal nature, first of
                              all in his views, but gradually also in his combined impulses of
                              will and action.
                              And what the apocalyptist saw BEHIND the future scenes of the
                              looming Mohammdan historical impulse was the sun demon at
                              work, working against the sun forces, against the spiritual
                              sun-intelligence.
                              If asked, the apocalyptist would have called the representatives
                              of Arabism in Europe "human beings who have willingly
                              dedicated themselves to the sun demon in their souls' nature."
                              Dear friends, the number 666 represented both the NAME and
                              the TIME when Arabism would flow into Christianity in order to
                              impress the seal of materialism upon western culture.
                              The apocalyptist portrays everything that works as a
                              counter-principle to Christianity – such as Arabism and its
                              deterministic conceptual constructs – as direct outflow from the
                              counter-spirituality represented by the sun-demon Surat.
                              And, in the final analysis, everything flowing from Arabism was
                              directed ultimately against a spiritual Christian understanding of
                              transubstantiation. External facts certainly do not look as if this
                              were the case but – by allotting validity only to the Father principle
                              – to the natural world-order, the sun demon forces indeed
                              intended to sweep away from human view an immediate feeling
                              for that which is active in the very deepest way in a sacrament
                              such as transubstantiation.
                              (The great revolutions that came about in Europe as a result of
                              the Crusades belong under the sign of the SECOND occurrence
                              of the number 666….)
                              During the first 666, dear friends, Surat was still hidden but
                              actively at work within the external process of outward events; he
                              was not seen in clear outward manifestation.
                              Now before us [in 1924] lies the time of the third number 666:
                              1998 A.D.
                              At the end of this (the twentieth) century, the time will come when
                              Surat will ONCE AGAIN raise his head most strongly out of the
                              waves of history.
                              Only two-thirds of the 20th century will have still to run before
                              Surat/Sorat once again raises his head most mightily.
                              Before this (twentieth) century is out, he will show himself
                              through his appearance in many human beings as the one by
                              whom many are "possessed."
                              Human beings will appear of whom it will be impossible to
                              believe that they are really human beings.
                              These Surat-inspired human beings will be recognizable by their
                              external appearance; in a terrible way they will not only scoff at
                              everything, but will also oppose, and want to destroy, and to
                              push into the abyss anything that is spiritual.
                              Outwardly, they will have intense and strong dispositions, with
                              savage countenances, and with furious destructiveness in their
                              emotions.
                              The intention to sweep-away anything spiritual will be
                              deep-seated in large numbers of earthly souls, just as the
                              apocalyptist has foreseen in the beast-like countenance, and the
                              beast-like strength, that will underlie the deeds of the adversary
                              over against the spiritual.
                              Even today, hidden rage against spiritual things is already
                              immense, yet it is still in its very early infancy in contrast to what
                              is to come.
                              - - - - - - - - - -


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                            • Br. Ron
                              From what I understand, this is also this in his Karmic Relationships Esoteric Studies, Volume 4, Eleven Lectures, Dornach, Sept. 1924 (Published by The
                              Message 14 of 29 , Oct 10, 2002
                              • 0 Attachment
                                
                                From what I understand, this is also
                                this in his 'Karmic Relationships'
                                Esoteric Studies, Volume 4, Eleven Lectures, Dornach, Sept. 1924
                                (Published by The Rudolf Steiner Press in 1957
                                where it is translated into English)
                                 
                                I have not been able to find it online, however.


                                BR
                                 
                                 
                                 

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:55 PM
                                Subject: R: [anthroposophy] Re: Islam

                                Hi Starman and Jeff,
                                the quote is from a lecture held on 20 Sept.1924.  The cycle  (ga 346)is  entitled "From John's Revelation"  and it has 18  powerful lectures dedicated to Christiangemainschaft's priests.  The lectures- deeply esoteric as you can see- have not been published till the end of 1980s. Presently there are only private typescript translations in languages different from German.
                                J.B.Aharon did study some topic of the lectures in order to write his "Spiritual Event".
                                 
                                ANDREA 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 9:19 PM
                                Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: Islam

                                pacbay@... writes:

                                    What specific lecture is this taken from and from what cycle ?
                                On the surface, the political and social predictions seem very prophetic and accurate. 
                                thanks.
                                Jeff


                                *******It was originally posted by lightsearcher1@..., on Oct. 4th. As it says Sept. 1924, which was the last month Steiner was strong enough to give lectures, it must have been one of the last he ever gave.

                                = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
                                Excerpt from a lecture by Rudolf Steiner
                                September 1924 / Switzerland
                                From one basic way of considering this matter, there are two
                                realms: the realm of NATURE – which is the realm of the Father
                                (the source of the created world both spiritually and physically) –
                                and the realm of the SPIRIT.
                                The Mohammedan teachings do not know the structure of the
                                world I have just been speaking about. They know – and can
                                ONLY know – the Father.
                                They know only the rigid doctrine: "There is one God, Allah, and
                                none beside him, and Mohammed is his Prophet."
                                From this angle, the teachings of Mohammed are the strongest
                                polarity to Christianity.
                                Indeed, resident in a hidden manner within the Islamic
                                worldview is the will to do away with all freedom forever, the will
                                to bring about a purely deterministic spiritual and social order
                                that would dominate every aspect of human life, for nothing else
                                is possible if you imagine the world solely in the sense of a
                                Father God alone.
                                A foreboding of this gave the apocalypse-writer (John) the
                                feeling: The human being cannot be found, or find himself, in
                                this. The human being cannot become filled through and
                                through with Christ if he remains connected with the doctrine of
                                the Father (alone).
                                Restricted to this, the human being cannot take hold of his own
                                humanness. He fails to become fully human if he is only able to
                                conceive the Father God.
                                In the end, the human being only becomes human by making
                                Christ alive within himself and thereby gaining protection from
                                the material conviction that spiritual realities are illusionary and
                                vaporous epi-phenomena of purely material causes.
                                Entertainment of the doctrine of the Father (alone) inescapably
                                arrives at a conceptual materialism such as represented, for
                                example, by Darwinism, the view that the human being arises
                                from purely material causes.
                                And if we regard Christianity primarily as that which accords with
                                the Sun forces spiritually speaking, and such as is reflected /
                                mirrored / mediated / manifested by the nine ranks of angelic
                                Hierarchies, then we may identify that which OPPOSES these
                                spiritual/sun forces as "anti-sun" forces or as  "sun demon."
                                This "sun demon" works COUNTER to the Christian principle in
                                such a way that – if a human being were to succumb to the lures
                                of the sun demon and his inspiration, then that same human
                                being would – by his own free choice – surrender all inward
                                connection to the divinity of Christ for an inward connection with
                                the sub-human spiritual realms.
                                The apocalyptist saw this. – He felt and saw the mighty (future)
                                counter-principle of Arabism bursting in on Christianity.
                                It was clear to him that, from this Arabism, everything arises that
                                brings the human being close to the purely animal nature, first of
                                all in his views, but gradually also in his combined impulses of
                                will and action.
                                And what the apocalyptist saw BEHIND the future scenes of the
                                looming Mohammdan historical impulse was the sun demon at
                                work, working against the sun forces, against the spiritual
                                sun-intelligence.
                                If asked, the apocalyptist would have called the representatives
                                of Arabism in Europe "human beings who have willingly
                                dedicated themselves to the sun demon in their souls' nature."
                                Dear friends, the number 666 represented both the NAME and
                                the TIME when Arabism would flow into Christianity in order to
                                impress the seal of materialism upon western culture.
                                The apocalyptist portrays everything that works as a
                                counter-principle to Christianity – such as Arabism and its
                                deterministic conceptual constructs – as direct outflow from the
                                counter-spirituality represented by the sun-demon Surat.
                                And, in the final analysis, everything flowing from Arabism was
                                directed ultimately against a spiritual Christian understanding of
                                transubstantiation. External facts certainly do not look as if this
                                were the case but – by allotting validity only to the Father principle
                                – to the natural world-order, the sun demon forces indeed
                                intended to sweep away from human view an immediate feeling
                                for that which is active in the very deepest way in a sacrament
                                such as transubstantiation.
                                (The great revolutions that came about in Europe as a result of
                                the Crusades belong under the sign of the SECOND occurrence
                                of the number 666….)
                                During the first 666, dear friends, Surat was still hidden but
                                actively at work within the external process of outward events; he
                                was not seen in clear outward manifestation.
                                Now before us [in 1924] lies the time of the third number 666:
                                1998 A.D.
                                At the end of this (the twentieth) century, the time will come when
                                Surat will ONCE AGAIN raise his head most strongly out of the
                                waves of history.
                                Only two-thirds of the 20th century will have still to run before
                                Surat/Sorat once again raises his head most mightily.
                                Before this (twentieth) century is out, he will show himself
                                through his appearance in many human beings as the one by
                                whom many are "possessed."
                                Human beings will appear of whom it will be impossible to
                                believe that they are really human beings.
                                These Surat-inspired human beings will be recognizable by their
                                external appearance; in a terrible way they will not only scoff at
                                everything, but will also oppose, and want to destroy, and to
                                push into the abyss anything that is spiritual.
                                Outwardly, they will have intense and strong dispositions, with
                                savage countenances, and with furious destructiveness in their
                                emotions.
                                The intention to sweep-away anything spiritual will be
                                deep-seated in large numbers of earthly souls, just as the
                                apocalyptist has foreseen in the beast-like countenance, and the
                                beast-like strength, that will underlie the deeds of the adversary
                                over against the spiritual.
                                Even today, hidden rage against spiritual things is already
                                immense, yet it is still in its very early infancy in contrast to what
                                is to come.
                                - - - - - - - - - -


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                              • jackstrange11
                                Dear list, I m not sure, but that lecture is probably in this book and so available in English. BTW, not all Christian Community priests were thrilled with the
                                Message 15 of 29 , Oct 10, 2002
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                                  Dear list,
                                  I'm not sure, but that lecture is probably in this book and so
                                  available in English.

                                  BTW, not all Christian Community priests were thrilled with the
                                  release of this private RS communication , but I think this is out-
                                  weighed by the material's current relevancy:

                                  http://www.anthropress.org/BooksPages/The%20Book%20of%20Revelation.htm

                                  --- In anthroposophy@y..., "Pacbay" <pacbay@a...> wrote:
                                  > I, for one, would like to see these in English and if possible have
                                  then posted in the archives or at Elib for download. Anyone care to
                                  step forward with the material? From the brief section we have seen
                                  there is much to ponder in these.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > jeff
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
                                  > To: anthroposophy@y...
                                  > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:55 PM
                                  > Subject: R: [anthroposophy] Re: Islam
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hi Starman and Jeff,
                                  > the quote is from a lecture held on 20 Sept.1924. The cycle (ga
                                  346)is entitled "From John's Revelation" and it has 18 powerful
                                  lectures dedicated to Christiangemainschaft's priests. The lectures-
                                  deeply esoteric as you can see- have not been published till the end
                                  of 1980s. Presently there are only private typescript translations in
                                  languages different from German.
                                  > J.B.Aharon did study some topic of the lectures in order to write
                                  his "Spiritual Event".
                                  >
                                  > ANDREA
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: DRStarman2001@a...
                                  > To: anthroposophy@y...
                                  > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 9:19 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy] Re: Islam
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > pacbay@a... writes:
                                  >
                                  > What specific lecture is this taken from and from what
                                  cycle ?
                                  >
                                  > On the surface, the political and social predictions seem
                                  very prophetic and accurate.
                                  > thanks.
                                  > Jeff
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > *******It was originally posted by lightsearcher1@y..., on Oct.
                                  4th. As it says Sept. 1924, which was the last month Steiner was
                                  strong enough to give lectures, it must have been one of the last he
                                  ever gave.
                                  >
                                  > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
                                  > Excerpt from a lecture by Rudolf Steiner
                                  > September 1924 / Switzerland
                                  > From one basic way of considering this matter, there are two
                                  > realms: the realm of NATURE â€" which is the realm of the
                                  Father
                                  > (the source of the created world both spiritually and
                                  physically) â€"
                                  > and the realm of the SPIRIT.
                                  > The Mohammedan teachings do not know the structure of the
                                  > world I have just been speaking about. They know â€" and
                                  can
                                  > ONLY know â€" the Father.
                                  > They know only the rigid doctrine: "There is one God, Allah,
                                  and
                                  > none beside him, and Mohammed is his Prophet."
                                  > From this angle, the teachings of Mohammed are the strongest
                                  > polarity to Christianity.
                                  > Indeed, resident in a hidden manner within the Islamic
                                  > worldview is the will to do away with all freedom forever, the
                                  will
                                  > to bring about a purely deterministic spiritual and social
                                  order
                                  > that would dominate every aspect of human life, for nothing
                                  else
                                  > is possible if you imagine the world solely in the sense of a
                                  > Father God alone.
                                  > A foreboding of this gave the apocalypse-writer (John) the
                                  > feeling: The human being cannot be found, or find himself, in
                                  > this. The human being cannot become filled through and
                                  > through with Christ if he remains connected with the doctrine
                                  of
                                  > the Father (alone).
                                  > Restricted to this, the human being cannot take hold of his own
                                  > humanness. He fails to become fully human if he is only able to
                                  > conceive the Father God.
                                  > In the end, the human being only becomes human by making
                                  > Christ alive within himself and thereby gaining protection from
                                  > the material conviction that spiritual realities are
                                  illusionary and
                                  > vaporous epi-phenomena of purely material causes.
                                  > Entertainment of the doctrine of the Father (alone) inescapably
                                  > arrives at a conceptual materialism such as represented, for
                                  > example, by Darwinism, the view that the human being arises
                                  > from purely material causes.
                                  > And if we regard Christianity primarily as that which accords
                                  with
                                  > the Sun forces spiritually speaking, and such as is reflected /
                                  > mirrored / mediated / manifested by the nine ranks of angelic
                                  > Hierarchies, then we may identify that which OPPOSES these
                                  > spiritual/sun forces as "anti-sun" forces or as "sun demon."
                                  > This "sun demon" works COUNTER to the Christian principle in
                                  > such a way that â€" if a human being were to succumb to
                                  the
                                  lures
                                  > of the sun demon and his inspiration, then that same human
                                  > being would â€" by his own free choice â€" surrender
                                  all inward
                                  > connection to the divinity of Christ for an inward connection
                                  with
                                  > the sub-human spiritual realms.
                                  > The apocalyptist saw this. â€" He felt and saw the mighty
                                  (future)
                                  > counter-principle of Arabism bursting in on Christianity.
                                  > It was clear to him that, from this Arabism, everything arises
                                  that
                                  > brings the human being close to the purely animal nature, first
                                  of
                                  > all in his views, but gradually also in his combined impulses
                                  of
                                  > will and action.
                                  > And what the apocalyptist saw BEHIND the future scenes of the
                                  > looming Mohammdan historical impulse was the sun demon at
                                  > work, working against the sun forces, against the spiritual
                                  > sun-intelligence.
                                  > If asked, the apocalyptist would have called the
                                  representatives
                                  > of Arabism in Europe "human beings who have willingly
                                  > dedicated themselves to the sun demon in their souls' nature."
                                  > Dear friends, the number 666 represented both the NAME and
                                  > the TIME when Arabism would flow into Christianity in order to
                                  > impress the seal of materialism upon western culture.
                                  > The apocalyptist portrays everything that works as a
                                  > counter-principle to Christianity â€" such as Arabism and
                                  its
                                  > deterministic conceptual constructs â€" as direct outflow
                                  from
                                  the
                                  > counter-spirituality represented by the sun-demon Surat.
                                  > And, in the final analysis, everything flowing from Arabism was
                                  > directed ultimately against a spiritual Christian understanding
                                  of
                                  > transubstantiation. External facts certainly do not look as if
                                  this
                                  > were the case but â€" by allotting validity only to the
                                  Father
                                  principle
                                  > â€" to the natural world-order, the sun demon forces
                                  indeed
                                  > intended to sweep away from human view an immediate feeling
                                  > for that which is active in the very deepest way in a sacrament
                                  > such as transubstantiation.
                                  > (The great revolutions that came about in Europe as a result of
                                  > the Crusades belong under the sign of the SECOND occurrence
                                  > of the number 666….)
                                  > During the first 666, dear friends, Surat was still hidden but
                                  > actively at work within the external process of outward events;
                                  he
                                  > was not seen in clear outward manifestation.
                                  > Now before us [in 1924] lies the time of the third number 666:
                                  > 1998 A.D.
                                  > At the end of this (the twentieth) century, the time will come
                                  when
                                  > Surat will ONCE AGAIN raise his head most strongly out of the
                                  > waves of history.
                                  > Only two-thirds of the 20th century will have still to run
                                  before
                                  > Surat/Sorat once again raises his head most mightily.
                                  > Before this (twentieth) century is out, he will show himself
                                  > through his appearance in many human beings as the one by
                                  > whom many are "possessed."
                                  > Human beings will appear of whom it will be impossible to
                                  > believe that they are really human beings.
                                  > These Surat-inspired human beings will be recognizable by their
                                  > external appearance; in a terrible way they will not only scoff
                                  at
                                  > everything, but will also oppose, and want to destroy, and to
                                  > push into the abyss anything that is spiritual.
                                  > Outwardly, they will have intense and strong dispositions, with
                                  > savage countenances, and with furious destructiveness in their
                                  > emotions.
                                  > The intention to sweep-away anything spiritual will be
                                  > deep-seated in large numbers of earthly souls, just as the
                                  > apocalyptist has foreseen in the beast-like countenance, and
                                  the
                                  > beast-like strength, that will underlie the deeds of the
                                  adversary
                                  > over against the spiritual.
                                  > Even today, hidden rage against spiritual things is already
                                  > immense, yet it is still in its very early infancy in contrast
                                  to what
                                  > is to come.
                                  > - - - - - - - - - -
                                  >
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                                • Pacbay
                                  You are right here. I recall this being the work. Thanks much. Jeff ... From: jackstrange11 To: anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Oct 11, 2002
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                                    You are right here. I recall this being the work.
                                     
                                    Thanks much.
                                     
                                    Jeff
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 4:19 PM
                                    Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: Islam

                                    Dear list,
                                    I'm not sure, but that lecture is probably in this book and so
                                    available in English. 

                                    BTW, not all Christian Community priests were thrilled with the
                                    release of this private RS communication , but I think this is out-
                                    weighed by the material's current relevancy:

                                    http://www.anthropress.org/BooksPages/The%20Book%20of%20Revelation.htm

                                    ---
                                  • Gabriel D. Pulgar
                                    Hi, My name is Gabriel. I have been following this group for a short while now and I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think responsible Islamic leaders
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Apr 1, 2003
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi,
                                      My name is Gabriel. I have been following this group for a short
                                      while now and I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think
                                      responsible Islamic leaders don't speak out to correct the negative
                                      image radicals are making for the general public? I asked myself if
                                      a Christian group held women and children in front of military
                                      targets, would someone speak out against it...and frankly I don't
                                      know... but I hope someone would. I would like to hear from anyone,
                                      using small words please- not Steiner talk- so a common guy can
                                      understand.

                                      Thank you and bye for now.
                                    • SRC
                                      ... That s an excellent and thought-provoking question - that is, unless one has a premanufactured opinion already in the chamber, ready to fire at all comers.
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Apr 1, 2003
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                                        Dear Gabriel:

                                        --- "Gabriel D. Pulgar" <gpulgar@...> wrote:
                                        > Hi,
                                        > My name is Gabriel. I have been following this group for a short
                                        > while now and I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think
                                        > responsible Islamic leaders don't speak out to correct the negative
                                        > image radicals are making for the general public?

                                        That's an excellent and thought-provoking question - that is, unless one
                                        has a premanufactured opinion already in the chamber, ready to fire at all
                                        comers.

                                        My opinion is that Islam is caught in a reactionary cycle that is even
                                        more intrenched and ingrained than we see in the Falwell
                                        Let's-Bring-On-the-Armageddon-by-Throwing-Gas-On-All-The-Brushfires
                                        lunatic fringe of Christianity.
                                        I also suspect that there are_ many clerics, scholars, and truly
                                        sssspiritual leaders in the stream who _do_ speak out (in fact, I know of
                                        some), but since it is in the interests of none of the major players on
                                        either side that they be given air-time, we see or hear little from them
                                        in the US.

                                        Islam has a glorious history, but suffered a grievous blow from the Mongol
                                        invasions. Its relationship with Europe is complicated, to say the least.
                                        This is one area in which there are certainly no easy, simple answers.
                                        Major transforming forces are working through all departments of global
                                        culture, ours as well as theirs. Whatever the output will be, it will
                                        depend in large part upon our input. It behooves us all to be on our best
                                        behaviour.

                                        Best Regards,

                                        Stephen


                                        =====
                                        "The only thing I regret about my past is the length of it. If I had to live my life again I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner." - Tallulah Bankhead

                                        "Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation." - Clarence Darrow

                                        "Those who cannot hear the music think that the dancer is mad." - Rumi

                                        "The victim who is able to articulate the situation of the victim has ceased to be a victim: he or she has become a threat." - James Baldwin

                                        __________________________________________________
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                                      • lightsearcher1
                                        My faith in the living force and virtue of the post-pot-head generations is born anew ! Gabriel, I will do what Steiner sometimes recommended - and that is to
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Apr 1, 2003
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                                          My faith in the living force and virtue
                                          of the post-pot-head generations is born anew !

                                          Gabriel, I will do what Steiner sometimes
                                          recommended - and that is to BASK in the QUESTION
                                          rather than vaulting toward some answer or other.

                                          And, man, am I basking !

                                          Thank you Archangel Gabriel, for
                                          your question has brought joy to
                                          my day and to my heart.

                                          . . . . . . . . . . .


                                          In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com,
                                          "Gabriel D. Pulgar" <gpulgar@y...> wrote:

                                          > Hi,
                                          > My name is Gabriel. I have been following this group for a short
                                          > while now and I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think
                                          > responsible Islamic leaders don't speak out to correct the negative
                                          > image radicals are making for the general public? I asked myself if
                                          > a Christian group held women and children in front of military
                                          > targets, would someone speak out against it...and frankly I don't
                                          > know... but I hope someone would. I would like to hear from anyone,
                                          > using small words please- not Steiner talk- so a common guy can
                                          > understand.
                                          >
                                          > Thank you and bye for now.
                                        • Joel Wendt
                                          Dear Gabriel, You ve made a big assumption, namely that no Muslim leaders have spoken out in this way. Certainly this would be very difficult to find out,
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Apr 1, 2003
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Dear Gabriel,

                                            You've made a big assumption, namely that no Muslim leaders have spoken
                                            out in this way.

                                            Certainly this would be very difficult to find out, given that the
                                            major media are pretty much not giving us any news about the views of
                                            Muslim leaders, except in the most edited fashion.

                                            Here is a URL to an article about US Muslim clerics (as well as
                                            Christian clerics) in favor of peace.

                                            http://www.bet.com/articles/0,,p344gb5835-6583,00.html

                                            Here's one on Kuwaiti leaders views.

                                            http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/02020412.htm

                                            Here's one about Indonesian leaders disagreeing with Osama Ben Laden's
                                            call for attacks against US.

                                            http://www.abc.net.au/asiapacific/focus/asia/GoAsiaPacificFocusAsiaStories_783414.htm

                                            Here's the link to aljazeera, the middle east CNN, if you want to go to
                                            the sources instead of depend upon predigested views from American news
                                            agencies.

                                            http://aljazeera.org.uk/

                                            Sanity is not the sole possession of the West.

                                            warm regards,
                                            joel


                                            On Tue, 2003-04-01 at 16:29, Gabriel D. Pulgar wrote:
                                            > Hi,
                                            > My name is Gabriel. I have been following this group for a short
                                            > while now and I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think
                                            > responsible Islamic leaders don't speak out to correct the negative
                                            > image radicals are making for the general public? I asked myself if
                                            > a Christian group held women and children in front of military
                                            > targets, would someone speak out against it...and frankly I don't
                                            > know... but I hope someone would. I would like to hear from anyone,
                                            > using small words please- not Steiner talk- so a common guy can
                                            > understand.
                                          • holderlin66
                                            Rough Legend of the Dogwood by Bradford Riley, 1999 That mighty tree, strong in spirit, grew in the hills of Jerusalem and as it towered it knew, sure as the
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Apr 1, 2003
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                                              "Rough Legend of the Dogwood"
                                              by Bradford Riley, 1999

                                              That mighty tree, strong in spirit, grew in

                                              the hills of Jerusalem and as it towered

                                              it knew, sure as the stars shone

                                              livingly on it and its roots danced in

                                              the cosmic dance with the earth, that

                                              itself, a tree, was destined for some

                                              great purpose.



                                              The stars whispered it to its full leaves,

                                              and the wind carried the hopes like a

                                              fair maid drying her hair with her

                                              limbs. Tales were told of the time when

                                              the temple gates and frames to the holy of

                                              holy sanctuaries were given to the greatest

                                              of the trees. To serve man. Not like

                                              that TO SERVE MAN as a menu for alien

                                              dinner parties. No. A divine task to

                                              serve as a pathway to lift earth and her

                                              quiet citizens skyward once more.



                                              This one mighty tree had been spoken of

                                              with the elders of the planets. Night after

                                              night, and in the dreams of trees, the

                                              heavens reveal more, for the trees stand

                                              erect with the knowledge that they know.

                                              They stand as if the earth had a spine,

                                              and men would know it. So this tree

                                              had dreamed many a fair dream

                                              while growing in the Etheric bosom of Earth.

                                              Perhaps it was to be some tall Mast to some

                                              mighty ship that steered by the holy stars.

                                              Time passed, and it was given to know

                                              through her roots that a tingling event

                                              was about to occur.



                                              The rough cutters cut her, planed her

                                              and squared her, and soon it appeared it

                                              was a mast with her new extended cross beams,

                                              just as a maiden would be newly

                                              clothed for some wedding.

                                              She was elated for it was her time. Not so

                                              smoothed was she, some roughness

                                              still lingered of her former stately beauty.



                                              Then the nails, then the blood, and as

                                              the blood soaked the tree's newface, she

                                              felt the power of all of holy nature as in

                                              song and sunshine rush through her;

                                              and of the earliest

                                              primal glories, Her etheric vision saw the

                                              strange history of forests long gone,

                                              and histories where earth was smoke,

                                              and diamonds and coal had not

                                              pressed themselves back into stars.



                                              It was raised, she was, the gods rood,

                                              mighty above the land, and at that

                                              moment the earth herself, as ship of

                                              state, was now guided by the very

                                              sun which had given it birth.

                                              The Captain of the mighty vessel,

                                              He it was, who now steered with the tree

                                              together, the destiny of the earth

                                              herself.



                                              This was more than the tree could bear.

                                              It felt the sharp agony in the Captain's

                                              hands and feet; the long-silent sap wept

                                              in resonance, and its sorrow tingled

                                              with the earth's sorrow, though every

                                              grain and circle of its magnificent body

                                              ached with the agony and the joy.

                                              She saw the three ancient Norns arise from the ground

                                              like vast darkening spirits only to kneel beneath them. And

                                              had it a choice, then and there, she would

                                              never have felt the pride she felt so long ago

                                              at having been chosen for such a destiny.



                                              Even so, the Captain which was Captive

                                              clung with his beating heart, so

                                              that as the wood of some great

                                              instrument could hear and feel the

                                              mighty tones of heaven wafting and

                                              played by this, her master, so this tree

                                              wept sap and blood and blood and sap

                                              for the nature that would be

                                              and those that were gone before.

                                              The Captain on the Cross pulsed his

                                              mighty heart throbs into the wood's

                                              most intimate core, and all things,

                                              like a great musician, the tree with

                                              her sensitive vibrating chords shared with Him

                                              the most stunning

                                              symphony ever played by living or dead.

                                              Woven in the Music that held the spheres

                                              Were ancient Norse Words of Love-Power-Wisdom.



                                              Music, it is said, has tried in vain

                                              to find and remember in the wood, the

                                              strings, what the great tree heard

                                              as she carried the whole world's heart

                                              on her firm limbs. As the Cosmos sang back to the Gods,

                                              It is Finished!



                                              But the sorrow was deeper and the pathos,

                                              stronger than all of nature could bear.

                                              But the great heart that beat sung

                                              inwardly a new song and wove a new

                                              life for this now holy tree. He felt her

                                              sorrow and from her sorrow wove

                                              four new blossoms of white; and on

                                              those white tips he put the marks

                                              of the pain, where the thorns and

                                              the blood spattered and where the

                                              helping healing hands were nailed and

                                              those feet that softly tread the earth

                                              and brought down all miracles were

                                              sorely bruised.

                                              Thus four white petals

                                              stained at the edges of the blossom, and ever was she

                                              from that moment, transformed. Even as a raven would

                                              be to a dove, so it was that a new

                                              tree, always at that time of that

                                              dread yet highest symphony of passion

                                              played in the heart of the Earth,

                                              so dost She sing in sweetness at

                                              Spring.



                                              So companion close was she, that even

                                              as the faithful spirit of man and his

                                              closest companion, his best friend is the

                                              dog, so did the Dogwood come to be. A

                                              quiet and changed tree that ever after

                                              loves only Spring, and its wood would

                                              nevermore be used for such sacrifice.

                                              But if you listen, you may still hear

                                              the song she shared on the Rood skull

                                              of the world's Holy Hill. Sung frome the

                                              Ancient Runes of the singing Logos to

                                              the dying world.



                                              Happy Easter!
                                            • Sarah
                                              Gabriel, Your question comes from the religious/cultural relativist stance that is popular today. Most people in the west don t know much about Islam and
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Apr 1, 2003
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                                                Gabriel,
                                                Your question comes from the 'religious/cultural relativist' stance that is popular today. Most people in the west don't know much about Islam and think it is just another religion like christianity or buddhism.  
                                                 
                                                The simple fact is that if the religious leaders speak out against certain actions they are going against the Koran, and risk their lives because the Koran calls for islamic dissenters to be killed. While Mohammad is the prophet of the Koran, like Jesus is to the Bible, they are at opposite poles. Mohammad commited purposeful mass murders and killings of innocents - I think it went into the thousands - in the name of Allah, as well as many other awful things. He called for killing of Jews and other infidels. Only recently did Saudi Arabia make it a criminal offence to kill an 'infidel'.
                                                 
                                                Honour and revenge are more important than Humility and Forgiveness. On the other hand, Jesus and Paul of the NT did not kill or hurt anyone - in fact they called for understanding, forgiveness, kindness, love the enemy, don't throw the first stone, take the log out of one's own eye, turn the other cheek and so on. The two religions just don't compare. Also, 98% of muslims are literalists (according to the islamic studies professor at ANU); in fact it is very difficult to take islam any other way while the myth of religious/cultural/moral relativism prevails. 
                                                 
                                                If you want to explore this question further, go to www.secularislam.org which is a site run by intellectuals of moslem birth who want to explain the truth about Islam to westerners, and about why there is so much violence, poverty, illiteracy, ignorance etc in their nations and they explain how it is tied to islamic thinking. While most moslems are in denial and will become very defensive if questioned on a deeper level, there are others who are fighting hard to Reform islamic thinking and they need our support. But the religious equivalence myth only keeps us all bogged in the quagmire of blindness and denial.
                                                 
                                                Sarah
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                > Hi,
                                                > My name is Gabriel. I have been following this group for a
                                                short
                                                > while now and I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think
                                                > responsible Islamic leaders don't speak out to correct the negative
                                                > image radicals are making for the general public? I asked myself if
                                                > a Christian group held women and children in front of military
                                                >
                                                targets, would someone speak out against it...and frankly I don't
                                                >
                                                know... but I hope someone would. I would like to hear from anyone,
                                                >
                                                using small words please- not Steiner talk- so a common guy can
                                                >
                                                understand.
                                                >
                                                > Thank you and bye for now.
                                              • foncteur
                                                Because violence, war and conquest is an essential part of Islam. It is necessary, to be a good muslim, to kill pagans and atheists and to humiliate the
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Apr 2, 2003
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                                                  Because violence, war and conquest is an essential part of Islam.
                                                  It is necessary, to be a good muslim, to kill pagans and atheists
                                                  and to humiliate the dhimmis (jews and christians)
                                                  War is an essential part of the islamic way to perfectness.
                                                  Here is what I just read on a french islamic forum, it is a hadith
                                                  of Boukhari:
                                                  "
                                                  Le Prophète (Que la paix et la bénédiction de Dieu sur lui), rapporte
                                                  Anas Malek (Que Dieu l'agrée) a dit : `'Tout musulman qui perd trois
                                                  de ses enfants n'ayant pas atteint leur majorité, Dieu le fera entrer
                                                  au paradis grâce à Sa miséricorde accordée à eux''.




                                                  Sahih Al-Boukhari
                                                  CLIQUEZ: http://www.apbif.org/Pratiquer/Comportement/l'%
                                                  E9ducation_des_enfants.htm "

                                                  it says that Anas Malek said that the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad,
                                                  said : "All muslim who loses three of his chidren before they are
                                                  adults will automatically go to the paradise of Allah for that
                                                  reason".
                                                  Yes, this is it, you read it : even if this man is a criminal, even
                                                  if he is Saddam Hussein, if THREE (not two, not one) of his children
                                                  are killed before they are 18 years old, this man will go to the
                                                  Paradise, he will have his 70 "houris" with big breasts and large
                                                  mouth
                                                  oh mamma mia



                                                  --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Gabriel D. Pulgar"
                                                  <gpulgar@y...> wrote:
                                                  > Hi,
                                                  > My name is Gabriel. I have been following this group for a short
                                                  > while now and I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think
                                                  > responsible Islamic leaders don't speak out to correct the negative
                                                  > image radicals are making for the general public? I asked myself if
                                                  > a Christian group held women and children in front of military
                                                  > targets, would someone speak out against it...and frankly I don't
                                                  > know... but I hope someone would. I would like to hear from anyone,
                                                  > using small words please- not Steiner talk- so a common guy can
                                                  > understand.
                                                  >
                                                  > Thank you and bye for now.
                                                • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                                                  ... responsible Islamic leaders don t speak out to correct the negative image radicals are making for the general public? I asked myself if a Christian group
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Apr 2, 2003
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    >>>I wanted to ask a question. Why do you think
                                                    responsible Islamic leaders don't speak out to correct the negative
                                                    image radicals are making for the general public? I asked myself if
                                                    a Christian group held women and children in front of military
                                                    targets, would someone speak out against it...


                                                    sarahwh@... writes:
                                                    Gabriel,
                                                    Your question comes from the 'religious/cultural relativist' stance that is popular today. Most people in the west don't know much about Islam and think it is just another religion like christianity or buddhism. 
                                                    The simple fact is that if the religious leaders speak out against certain actions they are going against the Koran, and risk their lives because the Koran calls for islamic dissenters to be killed. While Mohammad is the prophet of the Koran, like Jesus is to the Bible, they are at opposite poles. Mohammad commited purposeful mass murders and killings of innocents - I think it went into the thousands - in the name of Allah, as well as many other awful things. He called for killing of Jews and other infidels.... Jesus and Paul of the NT did not kill or hurt anyone - in fact they called for understanding, forgiveness, kindness, love the enemy, don't throw the first stone, take the log out of one's own eye, turn the other cheek and so on. The two religions just don't compare. Also, 98% of muslims are literalists (according to the islamic studies professor at ANU); in fact it is very difficult to take islam any other way while the myth of religious/cultural/moral relativism prevails. 
                                                    If you want to explore this question further, go to www.secularislam.org which is a site run by intellectuals of moslem birth who want to explain the truth about Islam to westerners, and about why there is so much violence, poverty, illiteracy, ignorance etc in their nations and they explain how it is tied to islamic thinking. While most moslems are in denial and will become very defensive if questioned on a deeper level, there are others who are fighting hard to Reform islamic thinking and they need our support. But the religious equivalence myth only keeps us all bogged in the quagmire of blindness and denial.
                                                    Sarah


                                                    *******Yes, it's the result of an unfortunate ethnocentrism, in which people raised with Western values unconsciously feel that everyone else has those same values, which is not the case. In fact, in most of the world our Western way of looking at things is the exception, not the rule; it's the result of the Christ working into European humanity and gradually raising people's souls up. That's the difference between the Judeo-Christian heritage and eastern religions.
                                                       A few people on this list trapped in this "religious equivalence myth" will just have their anger and other irrational feelings stirred up by these exchanges, but I'm proud to see this group struggling through to a real understanding of what lies behind the events of our times. Realistic thinking is so important.
                                                    -Starman

                                                  • lightsearcher1
                                                    Here please find an exultant celebration ... THE PICTURE HERE IS THAT THE WORLD-ENGULFING DARKNESS CAUSED BY ISLAM AND ITS INNATE EVIL ARE NOT REALLY INHERENT
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Apr 2, 2003
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                                                      Here please find an
                                                      exultant celebration
                                                      of the liberal mind:

                                                      --- SRCwrote:

                                                      > Dear Gabriel: My opinion is that
                                                      > Islam is caught in a reactionary cycle...

                                                      THE PICTURE HERE IS THAT THE WORLD-ENGULFING
                                                      DARKNESS CAUSED BY ISLAM AND ITS INNATE EVIL
                                                      ARE NOT REALLY INHERENT WITHIN THE MUSLIM PROJECT I
                                                      TSELF...RATHER, NICE" and "GOOD" ISLAM IS A TEMPORARY
                                                      VICTIM OF EXTERNAL BAD THINGS PERSECUTING
                                                      THIS NICE RELIGION OF PEACE...that's what SRC
                                                      is saying here.

                                                      > Islam has a glorious history, but suffered a
                                                      > grievous blow from the Mongol invasions...

                                                      SAME SONG, DIFFERENT THEME: "POOR BABY ISLAM IS NICE,
                                                      BUT THE POOR CHILD WAS OFFENDED FROM WITHOUT"

                                                      > Its relationship with Europe
                                                      > is complicated, to say the least.

                                                      YES, JUST LIKE ANY RELATIONSHIP IS COMPLICATED BY
                                                      THE TYRANT OVER AGAINST THE VICTIM OF HIS TYRANNICAL
                                                      AMBITIONS

                                                      > This is one area in which there are
                                                      > certainly no easy, simple answers....

                                                      HERE IT IS ! THE TYPICAL CHANT OF CANT
                                                      FROM THE TOP OF MT. OLYMPUS:

                                                      - "Further Research is Needed!"
                                                      - "It's very Complicated !"
                                                      - "Judgment should be witheld!"

                                                      - Finally, who are we pacifist liberals to make
                                                      a judgment based on observable facts? -- It would
                                                      not be NICE to make the JUDGMENT forced upon us
                                                      by the truth, so we'll just go ahead and say
                                                      it's "CoMpLiCaTeD"

                                                      > Major transforming forces are working through
                                                      > all departments of global culture, ours as well
                                                      > as theirs...

                                                      DO YOU SEE THE LIBERAL THOUGHT PROCESS ? -- DEAL IN
                                                      THE TRAFFIC-ING OF BLOODLESS ABSTRACTIONS - "forces" -
                                                      SO AS TO AVOID ANY RECOGNITION and/or ASSIGNMENT
                                                      OF INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY WHERE IT BELONGS.

                                                      > Whatever the output will be, it will
                                                      > depend in large part upon our input...

                                                      OH, WAIT, MAYBE WE HERE SURELY CAN MAKE A SLIPPERY
                                                      JUDGMENT...JUST AS LONG AS I BLAME THE WEST
                                                      AND THE UNITED STATES FOR ISLAM'S RESPONSIBILITY -
                                                      BECAUSE ITS REALLY * WE * IN THE WEST WHO ARE
                                                      THE BAD GUYS AND THE "ROOT CAUSE" OF ALL ISLAM'S PROBLEMS

                                                      > It behooves us all to be on our best behaviour...

                                                      THE MORAL SLUDGE FLOODS FORTH AFRESH FROM THE
                                                      LIBERAL FRONTAL LOBE -- ANOTHER JUDGMENT SLIPS
                                                      OUT, BUT RATHER THAN HOLDING THE TOTALITARIAN
                                                      Q'URAN AND ITS RAPISTS AND HAND-CHOPPERS AND
                                                      GANGSTERS ACCOUNTABLE...IT'S WE..AND NOT ISLAM,
                                                      THAT NEEDS TO TURN OVER A NEW LEAF

                                                      . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

                                                      Awake ! Behold ! Attend !

                                                      The Lord of Hosts and King of Kings threatens to
                                                      spew forth the temperature-less sludge of your brains
                                                      from his mouth.

                                                      . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
                                                    • rogerwaters88
                                                      Are there any lecture courses or other references where Steiner gives indications concerning Islam ?
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Oct 26, 2008
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                                                        Are there any lecture courses or other references where Steiner gives
                                                        indications concerning Islam ?
                                                      • Stephen Hale
                                                        ... http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Excursus/19110313p01.html The Moon-religion of Jahve and its Reflection in Arabism. The Penetration of the
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Oct 27, 2008
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                                                          --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "rogerwaters88"
                                                          <rogerwaters88@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > Are there any lecture courses or other references where Steiner gives
                                                          > indications concerning Islam ?


                                                          http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Excursus/19110313p01.html

                                                          "The Moon-religion of Jahve and its Reflection in Arabism. The
                                                          Penetration of the Buddha-Mercury Stream into Rosicrucianism."

                                                          This lecture describes the polarity of the Jahve known to the Hebrews,
                                                          expressed in the Full Moon, and the "cult of the crescent" worshipped
                                                          by Islam. It is well worth the study as it also includes why a Mercury
                                                          Stream must be forged in our time to replace the old buddha stream that
                                                          is now of the past, yet still clinged to, even with Christianity and
                                                          its present world view.

                                                          Steve
                                                        • Robert Mason
                                                          ... If you look at the links at the bottom of this page, you can see that there was a discussion of Islam a few years ago. You might find something useful in
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Oct 27, 2008
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                                                            --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "rogerwaters88"
                                                            <rogerwaters88@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > Are there any lecture courses or other references where Steiner gives
                                                            > indications concerning Islam ?

                                                            --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "rogerwaters88"
                                                            <rogerwaters88@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > Are there any lecture courses or other references where Steiner gives
                                                            > indications concerning Islam ?

                                                            If you look at the links at the bottom of this page,
                                                            you can see that there was a discussion of Islam a
                                                            few years ago. You might find something useful in
                                                            there somewhere, and probably some more that is not
                                                            so useful.

                                                            Steiner did often discuss Islam, usually mixed in
                                                            with discussion of what he called "Arabism" -- a
                                                            related but not strictly equilavent concept. For
                                                            instance, in *Karmic Relationships*:
                                                            http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19240316p01.html
                                                            et seq., he shows how "Arabism" arose, was
                                                            repulsed by Europe, and then came into Europe
                                                            through the reincarnation of "Arab" individualities.

                                                            He did discuss Islam in relation to the "666"
                                                            principle in the lectures to the Christian
                                                            Community priests:
                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/36719
                                                            (follow the links at the bottom of that page),
                                                            but *caveat*: this text does not come from
                                                            stenographic records but was reconstructed from
                                                            various notes.

                                                            RS often discussed how modern science arose through
                                                            reincarnated and transformed "Arabism", for instance:
                                                            "Science only reawakened during the time of the Renaissance. What
                                                            Greece and Rome had started became Arabic wisdom; it became the spirit
                                                            of Mohammedanism. Arabism then spread from Spain into Europe. This
                                                            science is outstanding with regard to everything directly relating to
                                                            the sensible-sensual world. The science that became a powerful stimulus
                                                            for European science, that influenced Bacon and Spinoza, [See Note 7]
                                                            arises from Spanish Arabism. It comes from Spain. However, it cannot
                                                            rise above a pantheism that is unable to reach concrete spiritual
                                                            beings. Arabism did not arrive at the concrete. It ascended to the
                                                            sensible human being but what was seen beyond that was only an abstract
                                                            divine unity. It was not known what this unity is. A poor and
                                                            comfortable world view! There is no knowledge of the spirit if it is
                                                            summed up in a unity. Therein lies the poverty of pantheism."
                                                            http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19090514p01.html;mark=131,51,59#WN_mark

                                                            He also discussed how this "Arabism" became the
                                                            carrier of a diluted Soratic culture from the
                                                            Academy at Jundi Sabur. This is in the cycle
                                                            *Three Streams in Evolution*; I haven't found this
                                                            online. Here is something that I previously
                                                            wrote on this theme:

                                                            >>The big event , known to history, of the Seventh Century was the rise
                                                            of Islam. Another event, not so famous but still known to history, was
                                                            the transfer of ancient Greek philosophy (especially Aristotle's works,
                                                            probably including the lost work on alchemy) to the Academy of Jundi
                                                            Sabur (near present-day Baghdad). Following the expulsion of the
                                                            philosophers from Syrian Edessa in 489 AD and from Athens in 529 AD,
                                                            the philosophers had found refuge in what was then the Persian Empire,
                                                            and at that Academy they pursued their calling. Then this knowledge
                                                            passed to the Islamic Arabs, and science of a particular bent reached a
                                                            high development under them, while Europe was in the "Dark Ages". Only
                                                            gradually, over many centuries, did this science pass over to Europe,
                                                            where it developed into the modern scientific revolution. Again, the
                                                            trend of modern science, as it has in fact developed, is Ahrimanic. The
                                                            direct ancestor of scientific materialism was this Arabian science,
                                                            which was itself derived from the Academy of Jundi Sabur. Thus, on the
                                                            other side of the 333 AD midpoint from the Birth in Palestine was the
                                                            rise of an active materialistic, anti-Christian world view in Jundi
                                                            Sabur.
                                                            >>Occult history (as given by Steiner) reveals how this came about:
                                                            Sorat intended to approach physical manifestation in 666 AD at Jundi
                                                            Sabur, and to bestow upon the philosophers there a super-human
                                                            knowledge. This knowledge was to consist of everything that mankind,
                                                            under the plan of the regular Gods, was to learn through its own
                                                            efforts by the height of the present, Consciousness Soul Epoch. This
                                                            epoch began in 1413 AD, so its midpoint will be 2493 AD. In other
                                                            words, Sorat wanted to give to mankind, prematurely and without the
                                                            requisite human effort and experience, the knowledge that would be
                                                            right and healthy for mankind to achieve through work and evolution by
                                                            the middle of the Third Millennium. The regular Gods' plan for the
                                                            Consciousness Soul Epoch is for mankind to acquire, through self-
                                                            education and self-discipline, the free, conscious, individualized
                                                            human personality. If the mankind of the Seventh Century had been given
                                                            this advanced knowledge at that immature stage of development, when
                                                            people could not think in full consciousness, the result would have
                                                            been disastrous. Just consider how much evil mankind has done with the
                                                            science we have acquired up to now, at our present stage of maturity
                                                            (or immaturity), and then try to imagine what the relatively primitive
                                                            people of the Seventh Century would have done with the science of 2493
                                                            AD. -- This picture is bad enough, but we need to recall Steiner's
                                                            occult insights to begin to get the whole picture. If Sorat had
                                                            succeeded, Men would have lost the possibility of developing our true
                                                            nature, and would have become egotistic, animalistic automata, with no
                                                            possibility of further development. We would have become earth-bound,
                                                            and the earth could never then pass over to the Jupiter, Venus, and
                                                            Vulcan stages. The normal Gods' plan would have been seriously
                                                            hindered, and Men would have lost their due and timely opportunity to
                                                            become Spirits of Freedom and Love. -- However, the rise of Islam
                                                            thwarted this plan of Sorat. It is a deep, mysterious paradox that
                                                            Islam, which was, and is, opposed to Christianity in many ways, also in
                                                            effect worked jointly with the Christ-impulse in history, by
                                                            blanketing, by "skimming the cream off", this Sorat-science, and by
                                                            watering it down. Still, this science survived, and has worked on into
                                                            the present day, but the worst was averted, for those times. The
                                                            weakened Jundi Sabur impulse, as a distorted quasi-Aristotelianism,
                                                            passed to the Arabs, over Africa and Spain, to France, England, and
                                                            through the monasteries (e.g. Roger Bacon) back over to the Continent.
                                                            The "Realism" of the Medieval scholastics (especially the revived
                                                            Aristotelianism of Thomas Aquinas) opposed this Arabian influence,
                                                            somewhat correctly seeing it as inimical to Christianity; but with the
                                                            decline and decadence of Medieval Aristotelianism, and with the dawn of
                                                            modern, anti-Aristotelian "empiricism" (e.g. Francis Bacon), the
                                                            diluted, but still powerful, Sorat-science came to dominate world-
                                                            culture.<<
                                                            >>The ruling Time Spirit, since 1879 AD, is now the Sun-Archangel
                                                            Michael (the "Countenance of Christ"). His previous rulership
                                                            encompassed the time of Aristotle and Alexander. Michael is the
                                                            administrator of Cosmic Intelligence, and a promoter of
                                                            cosmopolitanism. Ideas to Plato had been living spiritual beings,
                                                            attainable in higher vision. His pupil Aristotle put this pictorial
                                                            wisdom into conceptual thoughts, suitable for the age of lost
                                                            clairvoyance; Alexander carried this Greek thought-culture into the
                                                            wider world -- both in the service of Michael. But this ancient Greek
                                                            thinking was not experienced as coming from within the Man; it was
                                                            rather experienced as coming, like perceptions, from the outside, a
                                                            cosmic Pan-Intelligence. Later, this Aristotelianism was carried over
                                                            to Jundi Sabur, and thence into Arabian/Muslim culture. Perhaps the
                                                            most brilliant and influential proponent of this Arabian culture were
                                                            the Caliph Haroun al Rashid and his associates, in the Eighth Century
                                                            AD. This culture was, as indicated above, brilliant in a way, but was
                                                            also anti-evolutionary in that it failed to appreciate the Christ-
                                                            Impulse and was infected with the Sorat/Ahriman influence from Jundi
                                                            Sabur. Around this time the cosmic Intelligence began to "fall to
                                                            earth", out of the rule of Michael and in the "heads" of Men; the Pan-
                                                            Intelligence becoming individualized, personal intelligence. This
                                                            process was a preparation for what was to culminate after the dawn of
                                                            the Consciousness Soul Epoch in the Fifteenth Century: that Men were to
                                                            experience their thoughts as coming from out of themselves, as a
                                                            personal intelligence in individual freedom. . . .<<
                                                            In these same lectures RS said something to the effect that
                                                            the origin of Mohammedanism was inspired by spirits that
                                                            were opposed but still somehow connected to the Christ
                                                            influence. I still haven't figured out exactly which spirits
                                                            he was talking about.

                                                            Robert M
                                                          • carol
                                                            Re: «...In these same lectures RS said something to the effect that the origin of Mohammedanism was inspired by spirits that were opposed but still somehow
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Oct 27, 2008
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                                                               Re: «...In these same lectures RS said something to the effect that the origin of Mohammedanism was inspired by spirits that were opposed but still somehow connected to the Christ influence. I still haven't figured out exactly which spirits he was talking about....»

                                                              I know that the mix is obscure and complex,  but I'd like to place a couple of concepts foreward on the subject.

                                                              Could be,  not altogether, but perhaps a good part, Spiritual Beings overlooking folk souls. Ex. there's no close (in terms of time), direct link between 'Arabism/Mohammedism' and  the folk thread which brought Christianity forth – as a supersensible/sensible realitiy.

                                                              It could then be Spiritual Beings overlooking  folk souls - however,  these Spritual Beings having  distinct affiliage with other Spirit Beings ex.  in a capacity of servitude, concession.  Thus,  one would speak of Spiritual Beings of the 2nd Hierarchies in interplay with others -  and perhaps  the great difference  arises in the particularities of the  relationships/configuration with some of these ' others'.

                                                              In the immediacy, I certainly can see a clear distinction, on the folk soul  front, in terms of cultural impulses – and yet, this particular  folk soul (if that is indeed what one finds creating a divide) cannot not despise Christianity altogether, for Christianity refers itself to the equation of 6/7 of the Elohim – and these Spirit Beings would, by nature, ultimately refer back to this equation as well.

                                                              Ex. In practical, every day life, a Muslim will normally identify- with the greates of ease - with Christian ideals.

                                                              Thus,  a paradox arises on the subtlest of levels -  in Mohammedism, we have a forcing forward of   an outwardly  oriented vision,  all the while furnishing  a distinct yet very remote  assistance ( almost devachanic) to Christianity -  a kind of assistance which Judaism ( 's distinct configuration) cannot reach, nor furnish.  (This one,  just as Christianity has shown throughout the centuries,  must contend with a downside dimension to it's nature -  an inherent weekness  ) ...

                                                              That's all I can come up with for now,  carol.

                                                               

                                                               

                                                               

                                                               

                                                               


                                                              --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Mason" <robertsmason_99@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "rogerwaters88"
                                                              > rogerwaters88@ wrote:
                                                              > >
                                                              > > Are there any lecture courses or other references where Steiner gives
                                                              > > indications concerning Islam ?
                                                              >
                                                              > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "rogerwaters88"
                                                              > rogerwaters88@ wrote:
                                                              > >
                                                              > > Are there any lecture courses or other references where Steiner gives
                                                              > > indications concerning Islam ?
                                                              >
                                                              > If you look at the links at the bottom of this page,
                                                              > you can see that there was a discussion of Islam a
                                                              > few years ago. You might find something useful in
                                                              > there somewhere, and probably some more that is not
                                                              > so useful.
                                                              >
                                                              > Steiner did often discuss Islam, usually mixed in
                                                              > with discussion of what he called "Arabism" -- a
                                                              > related but not strictly equilavent concept. For
                                                              > instance, in *Karmic Relationships*:
                                                              > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19240316p01.html
                                                              > et seq., he shows how "Arabism" arose, was
                                                              > repulsed by Europe, and then came into Europe
                                                              > through the reincarnation of "Arab" individualities.
                                                              >
                                                              > He did discuss Islam in relation to the "666"
                                                              > principle in the lectures to the Christian
                                                              > Community priests:
                                                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/36719
                                                              > (follow the links at the bottom of that page),
                                                              > but *caveat*: this text does not come from
                                                              > stenographic records but was reconstructed from
                                                              > various notes.
                                                              >
                                                              > RS often discussed how modern science arose through
                                                              > reincarnated and transformed "Arabism", for instance:
                                                              > "Science only reawakened during the time of the Renaissance. What
                                                              > Greece and Rome had started became Arabic wisdom; it became the spirit
                                                              > of Mohammedanism. Arabism then spread from Spain into Europe. This
                                                              > science is outstanding with regard to everything directly relating to
                                                              > the sensible-sensual world. The science that became a powerful stimulus
                                                              > for European science, that influenced Bacon and Spinoza, [See Note 7]
                                                              > arises from Spanish Arabism. It comes from Spain. However, it cannot
                                                              > rise above a pantheism that is unable to reach concrete spiritual
                                                              > beings. Arabism did not arrive at the concrete. It ascended to the
                                                              > sensible human being but what was seen beyond that was only an abstract
                                                              > divine unity. It was not known what this unity is. A poor and
                                                              > comfortable world view! There is no knowledge of the spirit if it is
                                                              > summed up in a unity. Therein lies the poverty of pantheism."
                                                              > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19090514p01.html;mark=131,51,59#WN_mark
                                                              >
                                                              > He also discussed how this "Arabism" became the
                                                              > carrier of a diluted Soratic culture from the
                                                              > Academy at Jundi Sabur. This is in the cycle
                                                              > *Three Streams in Evolution*; I haven't found this
                                                              > online. Here is something that I previously
                                                              > wrote on this theme:
                                                              >
                                                              > >>The big event , known to history, of the Seventh Century was the rise
                                                              > of Islam. Another event, not so famous but still known to history, was
                                                              > the transfer of ancient Greek philosophy (especially Aristotle's works,
                                                              > probably including the lost work on alchemy) to the Academy of Jundi
                                                              > Sabur (near present-day Baghdad). Following the expulsion of the
                                                              > philosophers from Syrian Edessa in 489 AD and from Athens in 529 AD,
                                                              > the philosophers had found refuge in what was then the Persian Empire,
                                                              > and at that Academy they pursued their calling. Then this knowledge
                                                              > passed to the Islamic Arabs, and science of a particular bent reached a
                                                              > high development under them, while Europe was in the "Dark Ages". Only
                                                              > gradually, over many centuries, did this science pass over to Europe,
                                                              > where it developed into the modern scientific revolution. Again, the
                                                              > trend of modern science, as it has in fact developed, is Ahrimanic. The
                                                              > direct ancestor of scientific materialism was this Arabian science,
                                                              > which was itself derived from the Academy of Jundi Sabur. Thus, on the
                                                              > other side of the 333 AD midpoint from the Birth in Palestine was the
                                                              > rise of an active materialistic, anti-Christian world view in Jundi
                                                              > Sabur.
                                                              > >>Occult history (as given by Steiner) reveals how this came about:
                                                              > Sorat intended to approach physical manifestation in 666 AD at Jundi
                                                              > Sabur, and to bestow upon the philosophers there a super-human
                                                              > knowledge. This knowledge was to consist of everything that mankind,
                                                              > under the plan of the regular Gods, was to learn through its own
                                                              > efforts by the height of the present, Consciousness Soul Epoch. This
                                                              > epoch began in 1413 AD, so its midpoint will be 2493 AD. In other
                                                              > words, Sorat wanted to give to mankind, prematurely and without the
                                                              > requisite human effort and experience, the knowledge that would be
                                                              > right and healthy for mankind to achieve through work and evolution by
                                                              > the middle of the Third Millennium. The regular Gods' plan for the
                                                              > Consciousness Soul Epoch is for mankind to acquire, through self-
                                                              > education and self-discipline, the free, conscious, individualized
                                                              > human personality. If the mankind of the Seventh Century had been given
                                                              > this advanced knowledge at that immature stage of development, when
                                                              > people could not think in full consciousness, the result would have
                                                              > been disastrous. Just consider how much evil mankind has done with the
                                                              > science we have acquired up to now, at our present stage of maturity
                                                              > (or immaturity), and then try to imagine what the relatively primitive
                                                              > people of the Seventh Century would have done with the science of 2493
                                                              > AD. -- This picture is bad enough, but we need to recall Steiner's
                                                              > occult insights to begin to get the whole picture. If Sorat had
                                                              > succeeded, Men would have lost the possibility of developing our true
                                                              > nature, and would have become egotistic, animalistic automata, with no
                                                              > possibility of further development. We would have become earth-bound,
                                                              > and the earth could never then pass over to the Jupiter, Venus, and
                                                              > Vulcan stages. The normal Gods' plan would have been seriously
                                                              > hindered, and Men would have lost their due and timely opportunity to
                                                              > become Spirits of Freedom and Love. -- However, the rise of Islam
                                                              > thwarted this plan of Sorat. It is a deep, mysterious paradox that
                                                              > Islam, which was, and is, opposed to Christianity in many ways, also in
                                                              > effect worked jointly with the Christ-impulse in history, by
                                                              > blanketing, by "skimming the cream off", this Sorat-science, and by
                                                              > watering it down. Still, this science survived, and has worked on into
                                                              > the present day, but the worst was averted, for those times. The
                                                              > weakened Jundi Sabur impulse, as a distorted quasi-Aristotelianism,
                                                              > passed to the Arabs, over Africa and Spain, to France, England, and
                                                              > through the monasteries (e.g. Roger Bacon) back over to the Continent.
                                                              > The "Realism" of the Medieval scholastics (especially the revived
                                                              > Aristotelianism of Thomas Aquinas) opposed this Arabian influence,
                                                              > somewhat correctly seeing it as inimical to Christianity; but with the
                                                              > decline and decadence of Medieval Aristotelianism, and with the dawn of
                                                              > modern, anti-Aristotelian "empiricism" (e.g. Francis Bacon), the
                                                              > diluted, but still powerful, Sorat-science came to dominate world-
                                                              > culture.<<
                                                              > >>The ruling Time Spirit, since 1879 AD, is now the Sun-Archangel
                                                              > Michael (the "Countenance of Christ"). His previous rulership
                                                              > encompassed the time of Aristotle and Alexander. Michael is the
                                                              > administrator of Cosmic Intelligence, and a promoter of
                                                              > cosmopolitanism. Ideas to Plato had been living spiritual beings,
                                                              > attainable in higher vision. His pupil Aristotle put this pictorial
                                                              > wisdom into conceptual thoughts, suitable for the age of lost
                                                              > clairvoyance; Alexander carried this Greek thought-culture into the
                                                              > wider world -- both in the service of Michael. But this ancient Greek
                                                              > thinking was not experienced as coming from within the Man; it was
                                                              > rather experienced as coming, like perceptions, from the outside, a
                                                              > cosmic Pan-Intelligence. Later, this Aristotelianism was carried over
                                                              > to Jundi Sabur, and thence into Arabian/Muslim culture. Perhaps the
                                                              > most brilliant and influential proponent of this Arabian culture were
                                                              > the Caliph Haroun al Rashid and his associates, in the Eighth Century
                                                              > AD. This culture was, as indicated above, brilliant in a way, but was
                                                              > also anti-evolutionary in that it failed to appreciate the Christ-
                                                              > Impulse and was infected with the Sorat/Ahriman influence from Jundi
                                                              > Sabur. Around this time the cosmic Intelligence began to "fall to
                                                              > earth", out of the rule of Michael and in the "heads" of Men; the Pan-
                                                              > Intelligence becoming individualized, personal intelligence. This
                                                              > process was a preparation for what was to culminate after the dawn of
                                                              > the Consciousness Soul Epoch in the Fifteenth Century: that Men were to
                                                              > experience their thoughts as coming from out of themselves, as a
                                                              > personal intelligence in individual freedom. . . .<<
                                                              > In these same lectures RS said something to the effect that
                                                              > the origin of Mohammedanism was inspired by spirits that
                                                              > were opposed but still somehow connected to the Christ
                                                              > influence. I still haven't figured out exactly which spirits
                                                              > he was talking about.
                                                              >
                                                              > Robert M
                                                              >

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