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Re: [anthroposophy] Re: RS on * today's * ISLAM

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  • Bradford Riley
    From: Br. Ron ... Brother Ron brought; ... Bradford responds; Dear, beloved Grail brother; This is the way the world ends This is the
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 6, 2002
      From: "Br. Ron" <rlloyd@...>
      >Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: RS on * today's * ISLAM
      >Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 02:45:59 -0700

      Brother Ron brought;

      >Any monotheistic system incapable of change is like a blazing steam
      >locomotive with it's wheels welded to the track Sooner or later, somethin's
      >gotta give.
      >I tend to agree with ol' Nostradamus about the dude with the 'blue turban.'
      >It also may be that 9/11 is just the first in a series of triggers leading
      >global, cultural 'reactor' toward critical mass. In fact, I would bet on

      Bradford responds;

      Dear, beloved Grail brother;

      This is the way the world ends
      This is the way the world ends
      This is the way the world ends
      Not with a bang but a whimper.

      Let me offer you a prayer for the Intellectual Soul. The world is not
      threatened by this type of destruction. Demons and Hollow Men need the
      shells and souls of men to inhabit. Because we are now the full blown image
      of "Hollow Men". It is not because Saddam is right and we are wrong. It is
      not because we are right and Saddam is wrong. It is because we have bred a
      form of Fundamentalism here in America and around the world that is equally
      as jaded, as rigid, and as unfree.

      Our own Fundamentalism, stifles human insight into the Christ Being. It
      allows only the trite 'Jesus' to live on, and those who do not follow the
      trite Jesus are Satanist, terrorists, weird. The profile of a Terrorist fits
      anyone who thinks and has different ideas and strong political opinions.

      Good Soul everywhere, Native American, Hindu, Eskimo, are imagined excluded
      from heaven because they have not read the Bible in this incarnation. As far
      as Heaven and lies are concerned, everything is solved because we die, all
      of this nonsense is Fundamentally choking the world. Even as false, Islam,
      not Henry Corbin Islam, but false Islam is Fundamentally choking the world.
      False Islam is another retarded force that has outlived its mission. Hebrews
      have also outlived there mission. These stand and babble today, attempting
      to think and survive in the dawning Consciousness Soul which makes all of us
      brothers and sisters and unites all religions.

      The Hollow Men and the Intellectual Soul, loves the Ahrimanic tendency
      toward Fundamentalism because here all the old world politics and all the
      old church justifications for there own history of terror, rises again. 90%
      of the world has no clue about the true nature of Christ, the vast world of
      Freedom and the Consciousness Soul and this is what is desired. Keep
      everyone bickering over simplistic, idiotic issues which require socially
      mob generated, ignorant thought forms. Nothing is truer than the idea that
      worlds of thought, fought long before wars appear.

      Either Fundamental dogmas out of Science of the West telling us all what
      vaccinations we 'must have' because the west must have a fundamentalism of
      disease, latent in the world are monster diseases and we will need to get a
      clean genetic slate, to have a safe world. Let us grasp the idiocy of the
      War on Cancer. An endless War, which leads to more and more ignorant
      infringement and investment gain in stupidity to have corporations profit
      from more lies. But as Hollow Men and Women, we prefer the lies. The
      Ahrimanic and Luciferic forces prefer a social mob thought of fear on every
      issue in order to capture and hold the shell of humans. The world is no good
      to Ahrimanic and Luciferic agendas if humans are destroyed. The inroads must
      be socially mandated and kill all freedoms with a droning, Orwellian, World
      regime of fear and socially mandated dogmas.

      Listen to the Song of the Intellectual Soul as sung by T.S. Eliot, it is
      certainly us. This is as ugly as Saddam is.

      We are the hollow men
      We are the stuffed men
      Leaning together
      Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
      Our dried voices, when
      We whisper together
      Are quiet and meaningless
      As wind in dry grass
      Or rats' feet over broken glass
      In our dry cellar

      Shape without form, shade without colour,
      Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

      Those who have crossed
      With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
      Remember us -- if at all -- not as lost
      Violent souls, but only
      As the hollow men
      The stuffed men.

      Eyes I dare not meet in dreams
      In death's dream kingdom
      These do not appear:
      There, the eyes are
      Sunlight on a broken column
      There, is a tree swinging
      And voices are
      In the wind's singing
      More distant and more solemn
      Than a fading star.

      This is the dead land
      This is cactus land
      Here the stone images
      Are raised, here they receive
      The supplication of a dead man's hand
      Under the twinkle of a fading star.

      Is it like this
      In death's other kingdom
      Waking alone
      At the hour when we are
      Trembling with tenderness
      Lips that would kiss
      Form prayers to broken stone.

      The eyes are not here
      There are no eyes here
      In this valley of dying stars
      In this hollow valley
      This broken jaw of our lost kingdoms

      In this last of meeting places
      We grope together
      And avoid speech
      Gathered on this beach of the tumid river

      Between the idea
      And the reality
      Between the motion
      And the act
      Falls the Shadow

      For Thine is the Kingdom

      Between the conception
      And the creation
      Between the emotion
      And the response
      Falls the Shadow

      Between the desire
      And the spasm
      Between the potency
      And the existence
      Between the essence
      And the descent
      Falls the Shadow
      For Thine is the Kingdom

      This is the way the world ends
      This is the way the world ends
      This is the way the world ends
      Not with a bang but a whimper.


      ****** "Now, almost no one on the planet likes Saddam Hussein. He is a
      grim, bloody figure; not just another strong-man. His government routinely
      threatens entire families of prominent Iraqis who spend time abroad and
      might consider not returning, a tactic borrowed from Stalin's reign of

      Saddam has gassed thousands of his own Kurdish people and thousands, perhaps
      tens of thousands, of Iranian soldiers. But in the sphere of international
      relations, moral considerations count for little. After all, his most brutal
      acts were carried out under a long period of America's smiling favor.
      Saddam, like so many torturers and murderers from Shah Pahlevi to General
      Pinochet, was fine so long as he served the right interests.

      Despite his having fallen into disfavor, the hard fact is he remains a
      serious threat to no one but his own people.

      The noises we hear about invasion provide a measure of Mr. Bush's ineptness
      at his job. His Secretary of Defense argues publicly with newspapers about
      what is fit to print.

      But on a less superficial level, there is simply no reason to attack Iraq.
      There is not a jot of evidence that Iraq is associated with al Qaeda.
      Promoting nonsense like an Axis of Evil might carry weight with America's
      superstitious, lunatic fringe, particularly its large Texas chapter, but it
      is ridiculed by all the world's hard-nosed statesmen and pragmatic
      observers. It's not as though the U.S. has ignored Saddam since Bush p�re
      kissed the White House good-bye. The CIA spent huge amounts of money trying
      to foster opposition forces in Iraq, only to see Saddam's troops roll up
      their efforts, adding another statistic to the CIA's long record of
      poorly-conceived projects.

      The CIA's propensity for these kinds of projects, what we might call its
      Bay-of-Pigs Syndrome, results from the unthinking demands America's
      political leaders so often make of it. Almost the entire record of America's
      post-war interventions reflects bitter domestic politics and ideology rather
      than genuine threats to genuine American interests. Here is prima facie
      evidence, if any were needed, of chronic, poor national leadership resulting
      from an antiquated, money-corrupted political system.

      The U.S. has been bombing Iraq regularly at low intensity for a decade,
      using the rationale of enforcing its "no-fly zones." These zones were
      conceived at least in part to humiliate Saddam and encourage his overthrow.
      A powerful blockade - embargo is the nice word - of Iraq has also been in
      place for all those years (something which unquestionably contributed to the
      deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi children despite the tiresome
      apologists at the State Department).

      The fact that Saddam remains firmly in power after years of effort tells us
      something about his grip on Iraqi society. There is no opposition worthy of
      the name. The "progressive" press in the U.S. has carried dump-truck loads
      of articles about Bush and Iraq. The most recent convoy of them has Bush
      using war in Iraq to cover a sour economy before either upcoming
      Congressional elections or his own effort at reelection.

      But despite the stock market's performance, the American economy is not all
      that sour. It is actually in reasonably healthy condition by a number of
      measures. But for some people now, only historically-ridiculous levels of
      stock-market performance over the last decade are judged as healthy. This
      kind of expectation is simply a new twist on "I want it all, and I want it
      now!" A very popular sentiment in America.

      Things are "going down the toilet" when yuppie 401Ks are doing badly. Upper
      middle-class America is angry and is stomping its expensively-tennis-shoed
      foot about what counts: its portfolio.

      It is a simple fact that markets do not like uncertainty. Part of what has
      happened to stocks reflects Mr. Bush's own actions and policies. He is
      correctly perceived as inept, although few Americans will say so publicly in
      a situation reckoned as a state of quasi-war. From the limited perspective
      of the stock market, Bush's offset to ineptness has been a willingness to
      let business do pretty much as it wishes. While stocks climbed and balance
      sheets seemed honest, a lot of people thought that was fine policy.

      Generally overlooked, too, is the simple fact that stock markets do not like
      wars and rumors of wars. And Bush is "staying the course," like a mule in
      the only rut of a path it knows, concerning his poorly-defined war on
      terror, involving any number of countries and an indefinite future.

      Leaders abroad are almost unanimous in rejecting Mr. Bush's grade-school
      ideas for dealing with Iraq. Since a few other countries - Japan, Saudi
      Arabia, and Germany - paid much of the bill for Desert Storm, it means that
      this time the U.S. is going to pay its own bills in a far more demanding
      conflict. This is not something stock markets like. "


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    • Br. Ron
      Folks, please forgive the somewhat personal nature of this post. I have been wanting to write to Bradford privately for a while but since he approached the
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 6, 2002
        Folks, please forgive the somewhat personal nature of this post.
        I have been wanting to write to Bradford privately for a while
        but since he approached the topic on this list, I feel it is only
        right to reply in kind. You may feel more comfortable simply
        deleting this rather than having to wade through the somewhat
        cloistered subject matter. 
        Sir Bradford...
        Let me start by telling you how much I appreciate your gift.
        You have an overview of synchronicities and harmonics that
        could only be attributed to one with Vision...(note the capital 'V')

        Furthermore, I find little to disagree with in your colorful writings.
        In principle, I don't wholly disagree with your position in this
        post in regards to the geo-political situation of America and it's
        approach to her perceived enemies.

        Yet, there are points in which we don't quite see eye to eye...
        (nor is it even necessary that we do, except that it is natural
        to seek to be understood as well as to understand)

        First, I am not a fundamentalist. (Fundamentalists are those who
        point the crooked finger of accusation at weirdoes like myself who
        walk into a Seven-Eleven wearing a wizard costume, on our way to
        perform at the Renaissance Faire.
        But two years ago, I had a major metanoia concerning this.
        It was so major...and so subjective, that I can't even discuss it
        without diluting it's meaning.
        It was so upturning that my muse, Ariel, left me for a whole year
        because of the volcanic recognition of my overplus of Ideality in
        relation to Reality. I was paralyzed musically, and for one who
        has fed his family for 40 years with the fruits of melody, you can
        imagine how upsetting this was...not only for me but for my whole
        tribe. Zanoni was fully eclipsed by Mejnour..... and as one who
        perpetually inhabited the flowered heights of La La Land, I hated it.
        I have since recognized the fine line between being a 'fundamentalist'
        and acknowledging the periodic necessity of returning to the
        'fundamentals' of something. I generally dislike 'progressive jazz'
        because it often departs too severely from the fundamental
        heart of the melody.
        In my view, this same pathology often extends to Anthroposophists
        in relation to the Heart of the Christ Being and the beginning of the
        concert as it was written 2000 years ago,  at the Hub of Time..and timing.
        Christianity as a melody has an infinitely simple (as well as an infinitely
        complex) structure. Right now I am in the mode of gleaning the Original
        Melody as interpreted by some of the more traditional avenues like
        Catholicism, Tomberg, Orthodoxy, etc. (I've always done everything
        backward....Similarly, I have played 'by ear' my whole life...and am
        only now getting around to learning to read music :-)
        As a 'New Ager,' I took pride in my ability to play all the different
        'concerts of philosophy' at the same time but eventually found I was 
        becoming so "spiritually well rounded" that I wasn't really going anywhere.
        I have since learned (for me) the value of sticking with Vivaldi on Monday
        night and saving Bach until Tuesday.
        Now to politics.
        George Bush is not as stupid as I originally thought. In spite of his
        inarticulation ('nukular' instead of nuclear, et al) he seems to have a handle
        on the fundaments of the American Spirit. Yes, he is too prone to back
        entrepreneur and corporate culture at the expense of the weak, the poor
        the homeless, etc but this is the urgency of the zeitgeist, methinks. The
        pendulum will swing back...it always does
        What Bush DOES have, perhaps unconsciously, is a knowledge of
        'as above, so below.'  "Patriotism," it is said, "is the last refuge of a
        Perhaps...but leftists who protesteth too much don't yet realize that
        a cell which too often condemns the very body that gives it succor,
        eventually becomes subject to the very 'bacteria cops' which will
        expel it from the whole body.
        The fact is, that any freedom that exists in the West today is the result
        of those who lovingly sacrificed themselves on the Plains of Pelinore.
        No, this isn't the Ideal...but it is the reality of the situation.
        I am not saying to attack Iraq...but what I AM saying is that we
        must be realistic in our approach to Evil. We can simply be
        'Gary Goodguy' and trust that as the Etheric Christ descends all
        these things will work themselves out...and ultimately this is true.
        But I wholeheartedly believe that in order to be able to align our
        molecules to the descending Oversoul of Redemption, we must
        understand what the essence of Christianity is.
        In my mind and heart, I see it as quite simply the pursuit of
        Cosmic Beauty.
        Yet what makes the melody beautiful is the resolution
        of the discordant notes into the 'ah ha' of the harmonious.
        We nevertheless need the discordants. Without them
        the melody would be all tonics and hence too sweet.
        The roses likewise can't bloom unless they are subjected to the
        pruning shears of the master gardener.....nor can we humans don
        our Wedding Garments until we have descended into the hell of
        the crucifixion to liberate the sparks entrapped there.
        This is what has made America so great. She has put her
        money where her mouth is and courageously entered the fray
        against those Orcs and tyrannical forces which have threatened
        the freedoms of the innocents.
        The only times we have failed at this is when we had fissures
        in our collective will and didn't deal with the problem 100% ...
        Like we didn't in Somalia...like we didn't in Vietnam.
        If we were truly the UNITED States....not divided... but 100% into
        the deterrence of tyranny, there would be no need for war in the
        first place.
        "Be ye hot or be ye cold..."
        When will we have the courage to recognize our destiny as the
        leader of the world's impulse toward Freedom?
        Bravely seizing the scepter of power in order to lead in this is not
        the same as a mere bullying arrogance.
        War is the result of our own fragmented intent, pictured outwardly
        upon the screen of Creation.
        I'm sure I won't be changing your mind here Bradford, but I did feel the
        need to at least attempt a deeper understanding of my non-fundamentalist
        By the way, I just saw a Kurdish diplomat on TV relating the continuous
        torture and subjugation from the hands of Saddam. This is no more
        acceptable than the Taliban's torture of women, Milosevic's torturous barbarism
        against the Bosnians nor Hitler's massacres of the many millions upon his black
        We must fearlessly approach Mt. Doom and face these shells which
        seek to undermine The Love of the Christos.....and not bend to the sinister
        temptation of mere appeasement.
        This is my view...and I understand that honest men and women can disagree
        about these things. I also understand that only history will tell if we were right
        in our collective geo-political actions.
        But whether it be for war or for peace...I pray that we act as One Will in
        our movement. Only this can assure the victory of either path.
        As of now, it looks as if our congress and allies are coalescing behind
        taking out Saddam. If this could be done without war, all the better....
        but be done it must. Saddamy cannot be tolerated
        Thanks for reading this, my creative friend.
        Br. Ron
      • elaineupton2001
        Hello Marc (new to me), and all on this thread, You ask questions about Ibrahim Abouleish and what he might or might not say (or have said) in a talk at the
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 7, 2002
          Hello Marc (new to me), and all on this thread,

          You ask questions about Ibrahim Abouleish and what he might or might
          not say (or have said) in a talk at the Goetheanum about Islam and
          Christianity, Mohammed and Christ. I have no direct answer to your
          question, and neither can I comment directly on the controversial
          Pietro Archiati's role in reporting this.--I can only say that it is
          best to go to the source. Ibrahim Abouleish is, as far as I know (and
          I know from a close friend, which is still second-hand knowing)
          highly regarded in places in Egypt. His work at Sekem has been highly
          praised and I have seen some of the results, when I lived in Africa
          (biodynamic work, etc. in a large community). But check out Sekem
          (Egypt's) website, and research more for yourself on Abouleish. I
          know that he and another anthroposophic friend of mine are
          translating the Koran...and I also read the statement from Sekem,
          after 9/11, a statement of peace and good wishes to the U.S.

          More at present I cannot say, but I do suggest you go to the source--
          the Vorstand and Abouleish, not Archiat, even though he may be


          --- In anthroposophy@y..., brocartmarc@a... wrote:
          > Hello you all,
          > I have read some days ago a leaflet issued seemingly by Pietro
          > quoting the same lecture in connection with Dr Ibrahim Abuleish
          being invited
          > by the Vorstand to speak before the Goetheanum's audience in 1995
          and 2001 at
          > the "Religions of the world" session.
          > In his book "Islam und Anthroposophie " issued at the Verlag am
          > under the supervision of Virginia Sease, Dr Ibrahim Abuleish tries
          to tie
          > those two streams together . For him , Jesus was the bearer of the
          > impulse and could then be called Jesus Christ, and Muhammad 700
          years later
          > as the new bearer of the Christ impulse could then be called
          > Christ.
          > Abouleish's wiew implies the Second Coming of Christ was
          Muhammad , and the
          > goals of christianism to be fulfilled by islam.(!)
          > Archiati states that if Abuleish is free to express what he
          thinks , the
          > Vorstand should not give audience to such an antinomy of
          Anthroposophy and
          > Christianism, and moreover has to take a clear position , instead
          of giving
          > it a seal of authenticity.
          > Has anyone heard of a statement of the Vorstand on this subject ?
          > Best regards
          > Marc
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