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Re: RS on * today's * ISLAM

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  • Br. Ron
    Brother Bradford sez: ...I for one, can t even imagine Dr. Steiner enjoying the way the Sorath e-mail whizzed into the flaming Islamic issues and called for
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 6, 2002
      Brother Bradford sez:

      "...I for one, can't even imagine Dr. Steiner enjoying the way the
      e-mail whizzed into the flaming Islamic issues and called for literal
      burnings and morbid Islamic profiling. However, I stand behind what
      Starman has just brought in regards to Islamic history."

      I don't think 'flaming' is so much the issue (although it is hard to discuss
      Arabism without sensing the incredible potential for volatile combusition)

      I think it has more to do with understanding the mechanics of Islam as
      it relates to it's instruction book.....the Koran.

      History does provide a bit of a framework. But even if there were no
      documented references to the "Bloody Borders of Islam," this info is written
      indelibly in the Astral Light for anyone with even partially developed
      psychic sensibilities.

      Rudolph Steiner isn't the only credible source to suggest that Islam is a
      progenitor of antichrist (the sun demon... the 'qliphoth of Tiphareth')

      As I said before, unlike the Judeo/Christian scriptural mandates,
      the Koran offers absolutely no mechanism for change.....
      no 'Once and Future King' .. no Redeemer...no sprouting seed...
      no Oversoul offering continuous upgrades by way of etheric
      embedding and quickening.

      Any monotheistic system incapable of change is like a blazing steam
      locomotive with it's wheels welded to the track Sooner or later, somethin's
      gotta give.

      I tend to agree with ol' Nostradamus about the dude with the 'blue turban.'
      It also may be that 9/11 is just the first in a series of triggers leading
      global, cultural 'reactor' toward critical mass. In fact, I would bet on it.

      Br. Ron
    • Bradford Riley
      From: Br. Ron ... Brother Ron brought; ... Bradford responds; Dear, beloved Grail brother; This is the way the world ends This is the
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 6, 2002
        From: "Br. Ron" <rlloyd@...>
        >Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: RS on * today's * ISLAM
        >Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 02:45:59 -0700

        Brother Ron brought;

        >Any monotheistic system incapable of change is like a blazing steam
        >locomotive with it's wheels welded to the track Sooner or later, somethin's
        >gotta give.
        >I tend to agree with ol' Nostradamus about the dude with the 'blue turban.'
        >It also may be that 9/11 is just the first in a series of triggers leading
        >global, cultural 'reactor' toward critical mass. In fact, I would bet on

        Bradford responds;

        Dear, beloved Grail brother;

        This is the way the world ends
        This is the way the world ends
        This is the way the world ends
        Not with a bang but a whimper.

        Let me offer you a prayer for the Intellectual Soul. The world is not
        threatened by this type of destruction. Demons and Hollow Men need the
        shells and souls of men to inhabit. Because we are now the full blown image
        of "Hollow Men". It is not because Saddam is right and we are wrong. It is
        not because we are right and Saddam is wrong. It is because we have bred a
        form of Fundamentalism here in America and around the world that is equally
        as jaded, as rigid, and as unfree.

        Our own Fundamentalism, stifles human insight into the Christ Being. It
        allows only the trite 'Jesus' to live on, and those who do not follow the
        trite Jesus are Satanist, terrorists, weird. The profile of a Terrorist fits
        anyone who thinks and has different ideas and strong political opinions.

        Good Soul everywhere, Native American, Hindu, Eskimo, are imagined excluded
        from heaven because they have not read the Bible in this incarnation. As far
        as Heaven and lies are concerned, everything is solved because we die, all
        of this nonsense is Fundamentally choking the world. Even as false, Islam,
        not Henry Corbin Islam, but false Islam is Fundamentally choking the world.
        False Islam is another retarded force that has outlived its mission. Hebrews
        have also outlived there mission. These stand and babble today, attempting
        to think and survive in the dawning Consciousness Soul which makes all of us
        brothers and sisters and unites all religions.

        The Hollow Men and the Intellectual Soul, loves the Ahrimanic tendency
        toward Fundamentalism because here all the old world politics and all the
        old church justifications for there own history of terror, rises again. 90%
        of the world has no clue about the true nature of Christ, the vast world of
        Freedom and the Consciousness Soul and this is what is desired. Keep
        everyone bickering over simplistic, idiotic issues which require socially
        mob generated, ignorant thought forms. Nothing is truer than the idea that
        worlds of thought, fought long before wars appear.

        Either Fundamental dogmas out of Science of the West telling us all what
        vaccinations we 'must have' because the west must have a fundamentalism of
        disease, latent in the world are monster diseases and we will need to get a
        clean genetic slate, to have a safe world. Let us grasp the idiocy of the
        War on Cancer. An endless War, which leads to more and more ignorant
        infringement and investment gain in stupidity to have corporations profit
        from more lies. But as Hollow Men and Women, we prefer the lies. The
        Ahrimanic and Luciferic forces prefer a social mob thought of fear on every
        issue in order to capture and hold the shell of humans. The world is no good
        to Ahrimanic and Luciferic agendas if humans are destroyed. The inroads must
        be socially mandated and kill all freedoms with a droning, Orwellian, World
        regime of fear and socially mandated dogmas.

        Listen to the Song of the Intellectual Soul as sung by T.S. Eliot, it is
        certainly us. This is as ugly as Saddam is.

        We are the hollow men
        We are the stuffed men
        Leaning together
        Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
        Our dried voices, when
        We whisper together
        Are quiet and meaningless
        As wind in dry grass
        Or rats' feet over broken glass
        In our dry cellar

        Shape without form, shade without colour,
        Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

        Those who have crossed
        With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
        Remember us -- if at all -- not as lost
        Violent souls, but only
        As the hollow men
        The stuffed men.

        Eyes I dare not meet in dreams
        In death's dream kingdom
        These do not appear:
        There, the eyes are
        Sunlight on a broken column
        There, is a tree swinging
        And voices are
        In the wind's singing
        More distant and more solemn
        Than a fading star.

        This is the dead land
        This is cactus land
        Here the stone images
        Are raised, here they receive
        The supplication of a dead man's hand
        Under the twinkle of a fading star.

        Is it like this
        In death's other kingdom
        Waking alone
        At the hour when we are
        Trembling with tenderness
        Lips that would kiss
        Form prayers to broken stone.

        The eyes are not here
        There are no eyes here
        In this valley of dying stars
        In this hollow valley
        This broken jaw of our lost kingdoms

        In this last of meeting places
        We grope together
        And avoid speech
        Gathered on this beach of the tumid river

        Between the idea
        And the reality
        Between the motion
        And the act
        Falls the Shadow

        For Thine is the Kingdom

        Between the conception
        And the creation
        Between the emotion
        And the response
        Falls the Shadow

        Between the desire
        And the spasm
        Between the potency
        And the existence
        Between the essence
        And the descent
        Falls the Shadow
        For Thine is the Kingdom

        This is the way the world ends
        This is the way the world ends
        This is the way the world ends
        Not with a bang but a whimper.


        ****** "Now, almost no one on the planet likes Saddam Hussein. He is a
        grim, bloody figure; not just another strong-man. His government routinely
        threatens entire families of prominent Iraqis who spend time abroad and
        might consider not returning, a tactic borrowed from Stalin's reign of

        Saddam has gassed thousands of his own Kurdish people and thousands, perhaps
        tens of thousands, of Iranian soldiers. But in the sphere of international
        relations, moral considerations count for little. After all, his most brutal
        acts were carried out under a long period of America's smiling favor.
        Saddam, like so many torturers and murderers from Shah Pahlevi to General
        Pinochet, was fine so long as he served the right interests.

        Despite his having fallen into disfavor, the hard fact is he remains a
        serious threat to no one but his own people.

        The noises we hear about invasion provide a measure of Mr. Bush's ineptness
        at his job. His Secretary of Defense argues publicly with newspapers about
        what is fit to print.

        But on a less superficial level, there is simply no reason to attack Iraq.
        There is not a jot of evidence that Iraq is associated with al Qaeda.
        Promoting nonsense like an Axis of Evil might carry weight with America's
        superstitious, lunatic fringe, particularly its large Texas chapter, but it
        is ridiculed by all the world's hard-nosed statesmen and pragmatic
        observers. It's not as though the U.S. has ignored Saddam since Bush p�re
        kissed the White House good-bye. The CIA spent huge amounts of money trying
        to foster opposition forces in Iraq, only to see Saddam's troops roll up
        their efforts, adding another statistic to the CIA's long record of
        poorly-conceived projects.

        The CIA's propensity for these kinds of projects, what we might call its
        Bay-of-Pigs Syndrome, results from the unthinking demands America's
        political leaders so often make of it. Almost the entire record of America's
        post-war interventions reflects bitter domestic politics and ideology rather
        than genuine threats to genuine American interests. Here is prima facie
        evidence, if any were needed, of chronic, poor national leadership resulting
        from an antiquated, money-corrupted political system.

        The U.S. has been bombing Iraq regularly at low intensity for a decade,
        using the rationale of enforcing its "no-fly zones." These zones were
        conceived at least in part to humiliate Saddam and encourage his overthrow.
        A powerful blockade - embargo is the nice word - of Iraq has also been in
        place for all those years (something which unquestionably contributed to the
        deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi children despite the tiresome
        apologists at the State Department).

        The fact that Saddam remains firmly in power after years of effort tells us
        something about his grip on Iraqi society. There is no opposition worthy of
        the name. The "progressive" press in the U.S. has carried dump-truck loads
        of articles about Bush and Iraq. The most recent convoy of them has Bush
        using war in Iraq to cover a sour economy before either upcoming
        Congressional elections or his own effort at reelection.

        But despite the stock market's performance, the American economy is not all
        that sour. It is actually in reasonably healthy condition by a number of
        measures. But for some people now, only historically-ridiculous levels of
        stock-market performance over the last decade are judged as healthy. This
        kind of expectation is simply a new twist on "I want it all, and I want it
        now!" A very popular sentiment in America.

        Things are "going down the toilet" when yuppie 401Ks are doing badly. Upper
        middle-class America is angry and is stomping its expensively-tennis-shoed
        foot about what counts: its portfolio.

        It is a simple fact that markets do not like uncertainty. Part of what has
        happened to stocks reflects Mr. Bush's own actions and policies. He is
        correctly perceived as inept, although few Americans will say so publicly in
        a situation reckoned as a state of quasi-war. From the limited perspective
        of the stock market, Bush's offset to ineptness has been a willingness to
        let business do pretty much as it wishes. While stocks climbed and balance
        sheets seemed honest, a lot of people thought that was fine policy.

        Generally overlooked, too, is the simple fact that stock markets do not like
        wars and rumors of wars. And Bush is "staying the course," like a mule in
        the only rut of a path it knows, concerning his poorly-defined war on
        terror, involving any number of countries and an indefinite future.

        Leaders abroad are almost unanimous in rejecting Mr. Bush's grade-school
        ideas for dealing with Iraq. Since a few other countries - Japan, Saudi
        Arabia, and Germany - paid much of the bill for Desert Storm, it means that
        this time the U.S. is going to pay its own bills in a far more demanding
        conflict. This is not something stock markets like. "


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      • Br. Ron
        Folks, please forgive the somewhat personal nature of this post. I have been wanting to write to Bradford privately for a while but since he approached the
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 6, 2002
          Folks, please forgive the somewhat personal nature of this post.
          I have been wanting to write to Bradford privately for a while
          but since he approached the topic on this list, I feel it is only
          right to reply in kind. You may feel more comfortable simply
          deleting this rather than having to wade through the somewhat
          cloistered subject matter. 
          Sir Bradford...
          Let me start by telling you how much I appreciate your gift.
          You have an overview of synchronicities and harmonics that
          could only be attributed to one with Vision...(note the capital 'V')

          Furthermore, I find little to disagree with in your colorful writings.
          In principle, I don't wholly disagree with your position in this
          post in regards to the geo-political situation of America and it's
          approach to her perceived enemies.

          Yet, there are points in which we don't quite see eye to eye...
          (nor is it even necessary that we do, except that it is natural
          to seek to be understood as well as to understand)

          First, I am not a fundamentalist. (Fundamentalists are those who
          point the crooked finger of accusation at weirdoes like myself who
          walk into a Seven-Eleven wearing a wizard costume, on our way to
          perform at the Renaissance Faire.
          But two years ago, I had a major metanoia concerning this.
          It was so major...and so subjective, that I can't even discuss it
          without diluting it's meaning.
          It was so upturning that my muse, Ariel, left me for a whole year
          because of the volcanic recognition of my overplus of Ideality in
          relation to Reality. I was paralyzed musically, and for one who
          has fed his family for 40 years with the fruits of melody, you can
          imagine how upsetting this was...not only for me but for my whole
          tribe. Zanoni was fully eclipsed by Mejnour..... and as one who
          perpetually inhabited the flowered heights of La La Land, I hated it.
          I have since recognized the fine line between being a 'fundamentalist'
          and acknowledging the periodic necessity of returning to the
          'fundamentals' of something. I generally dislike 'progressive jazz'
          because it often departs too severely from the fundamental
          heart of the melody.
          In my view, this same pathology often extends to Anthroposophists
          in relation to the Heart of the Christ Being and the beginning of the
          concert as it was written 2000 years ago,  at the Hub of Time..and timing.
          Christianity as a melody has an infinitely simple (as well as an infinitely
          complex) structure. Right now I am in the mode of gleaning the Original
          Melody as interpreted by some of the more traditional avenues like
          Catholicism, Tomberg, Orthodoxy, etc. (I've always done everything
          backward....Similarly, I have played 'by ear' my whole life...and am
          only now getting around to learning to read music :-)
          As a 'New Ager,' I took pride in my ability to play all the different
          'concerts of philosophy' at the same time but eventually found I was 
          becoming so "spiritually well rounded" that I wasn't really going anywhere.
          I have since learned (for me) the value of sticking with Vivaldi on Monday
          night and saving Bach until Tuesday.
          Now to politics.
          George Bush is not as stupid as I originally thought. In spite of his
          inarticulation ('nukular' instead of nuclear, et al) he seems to have a handle
          on the fundaments of the American Spirit. Yes, he is too prone to back
          entrepreneur and corporate culture at the expense of the weak, the poor
          the homeless, etc but this is the urgency of the zeitgeist, methinks. The
          pendulum will swing back...it always does
          What Bush DOES have, perhaps unconsciously, is a knowledge of
          'as above, so below.'  "Patriotism," it is said, "is the last refuge of a
          Perhaps...but leftists who protesteth too much don't yet realize that
          a cell which too often condemns the very body that gives it succor,
          eventually becomes subject to the very 'bacteria cops' which will
          expel it from the whole body.
          The fact is, that any freedom that exists in the West today is the result
          of those who lovingly sacrificed themselves on the Plains of Pelinore.
          No, this isn't the Ideal...but it is the reality of the situation.
          I am not saying to attack Iraq...but what I AM saying is that we
          must be realistic in our approach to Evil. We can simply be
          'Gary Goodguy' and trust that as the Etheric Christ descends all
          these things will work themselves out...and ultimately this is true.
          But I wholeheartedly believe that in order to be able to align our
          molecules to the descending Oversoul of Redemption, we must
          understand what the essence of Christianity is.
          In my mind and heart, I see it as quite simply the pursuit of
          Cosmic Beauty.
          Yet what makes the melody beautiful is the resolution
          of the discordant notes into the 'ah ha' of the harmonious.
          We nevertheless need the discordants. Without them
          the melody would be all tonics and hence too sweet.
          The roses likewise can't bloom unless they are subjected to the
          pruning shears of the master gardener.....nor can we humans don
          our Wedding Garments until we have descended into the hell of
          the crucifixion to liberate the sparks entrapped there.
          This is what has made America so great. She has put her
          money where her mouth is and courageously entered the fray
          against those Orcs and tyrannical forces which have threatened
          the freedoms of the innocents.
          The only times we have failed at this is when we had fissures
          in our collective will and didn't deal with the problem 100% ...
          Like we didn't in Somalia...like we didn't in Vietnam.
          If we were truly the UNITED States....not divided... but 100% into
          the deterrence of tyranny, there would be no need for war in the
          first place.
          "Be ye hot or be ye cold..."
          When will we have the courage to recognize our destiny as the
          leader of the world's impulse toward Freedom?
          Bravely seizing the scepter of power in order to lead in this is not
          the same as a mere bullying arrogance.
          War is the result of our own fragmented intent, pictured outwardly
          upon the screen of Creation.
          I'm sure I won't be changing your mind here Bradford, but I did feel the
          need to at least attempt a deeper understanding of my non-fundamentalist
          By the way, I just saw a Kurdish diplomat on TV relating the continuous
          torture and subjugation from the hands of Saddam. This is no more
          acceptable than the Taliban's torture of women, Milosevic's torturous barbarism
          against the Bosnians nor Hitler's massacres of the many millions upon his black
          We must fearlessly approach Mt. Doom and face these shells which
          seek to undermine The Love of the Christos.....and not bend to the sinister
          temptation of mere appeasement.
          This is my view...and I understand that honest men and women can disagree
          about these things. I also understand that only history will tell if we were right
          in our collective geo-political actions.
          But whether it be for war or for peace...I pray that we act as One Will in
          our movement. Only this can assure the victory of either path.
          As of now, it looks as if our congress and allies are coalescing behind
          taking out Saddam. If this could be done without war, all the better....
          but be done it must. Saddamy cannot be tolerated
          Thanks for reading this, my creative friend.
          Br. Ron
        • elaineupton2001
          Hello Marc (new to me), and all on this thread, You ask questions about Ibrahim Abouleish and what he might or might not say (or have said) in a talk at the
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 7, 2002
            Hello Marc (new to me), and all on this thread,

            You ask questions about Ibrahim Abouleish and what he might or might
            not say (or have said) in a talk at the Goetheanum about Islam and
            Christianity, Mohammed and Christ. I have no direct answer to your
            question, and neither can I comment directly on the controversial
            Pietro Archiati's role in reporting this.--I can only say that it is
            best to go to the source. Ibrahim Abouleish is, as far as I know (and
            I know from a close friend, which is still second-hand knowing)
            highly regarded in places in Egypt. His work at Sekem has been highly
            praised and I have seen some of the results, when I lived in Africa
            (biodynamic work, etc. in a large community). But check out Sekem
            (Egypt's) website, and research more for yourself on Abouleish. I
            know that he and another anthroposophic friend of mine are
            translating the Koran...and I also read the statement from Sekem,
            after 9/11, a statement of peace and good wishes to the U.S.

            More at present I cannot say, but I do suggest you go to the source--
            the Vorstand and Abouleish, not Archiat, even though he may be


            --- In anthroposophy@y..., brocartmarc@a... wrote:
            > Hello you all,
            > I have read some days ago a leaflet issued seemingly by Pietro
            > quoting the same lecture in connection with Dr Ibrahim Abuleish
            being invited
            > by the Vorstand to speak before the Goetheanum's audience in 1995
            and 2001 at
            > the "Religions of the world" session.
            > In his book "Islam und Anthroposophie " issued at the Verlag am
            > under the supervision of Virginia Sease, Dr Ibrahim Abuleish tries
            to tie
            > those two streams together . For him , Jesus was the bearer of the
            > impulse and could then be called Jesus Christ, and Muhammad 700
            years later
            > as the new bearer of the Christ impulse could then be called
            > Christ.
            > Abouleish's wiew implies the Second Coming of Christ was
            Muhammad , and the
            > goals of christianism to be fulfilled by islam.(!)
            > Archiati states that if Abuleish is free to express what he
            thinks , the
            > Vorstand should not give audience to such an antinomy of
            Anthroposophy and
            > Christianism, and moreover has to take a clear position , instead
            of giving
            > it a seal of authenticity.
            > Has anyone heard of a statement of the Vorstand on this subject ?
            > Best regards
            > Marc
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