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Re: RS on * today's * ISLAM

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  • jackstrange11
    Starman, Thanks for the well thought-out reply. I think that Arabism s materialistic spin on Aristotle was a necessary part of the evolution of consciousness.
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 5, 2002
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      Starman,
      Thanks for the well thought-out reply.
      I think that Arabism's materialistic spin on Aristotle was a
      necessary part of the evolution of consciousness. This was the point
      where humans began to perceive the pure ideas of the spiritual world
      as a creation of their own thinking rather than the creations of
      higher beings acting through human consciousness. It enabled us to
      take hold of thinking and exercise our will in that complex web of
      creation, but at the same time it started us down the road away from
      recognition of spirit. So we must resist the danger, but at the same
      time incorporate the life giving elements of that way of thinking. So
      Aquinas can be seen as incorporating the Arabic sphere into Christian
      perception embracing it positively as well as giving it a well needed
      course correction.
      The Islamic thought that my mind sees is reflected in the great
      architecture of southern Spain and the mid-east which consists of
      complex webs of motives with organically integrated ornamentation.
      I believe that this stream combined with Christianity in the music of
      JS Bach, where the deepest Christian mysticism is expressed with
      complex counterpoint. Fugue, canon, and other forms of counterpoint
      are very Islamic in the numerical relations and mathematical
      exactitude and the interweaving of webs of motives. A comparison
      between plain chant and Bach's Bmin Mass indicates how the Arabic
      influence can help us attain the highest spiritual ends. I'm not
      saying that Arabs necessarily invented Baroque counterpoint, but that
      they created the thought form archetypes that the inventers
      subsequently used. This same type of thought is the basis of the
      hyper linking of information on the WWWeb which may or may not be an
      example of its negative potential.

      I agree that the Arab world passed on Greek thought, but I think we
      must emphasize the transformations of that thought and seek to
      visualize what it was. We cannot return to the Dark Ages but we must
      extract the gold that is there before discarding what is left over in
      the dust bin.

      Kenneth

      --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
      > jackfreed@m... writes:
      > > Starman:
      > > But isn't Islam, despite its present demonic elements, the source
      of
      > > the positive contributions of math, science, and rational
      thinking
      > > that has become the foundation of Western economics? The souls of
      > > Islam reincarnated in Western rationalism. The al-quada stream
      is a
      > > divergent development that draws on the Christ-rejection, but the
      > > merger of the rational Arabic stream into the West seems
      necessary
      > > for the achievement of human freedom. Or should we differentiate
      > > between Islam and the Arabic stream of Haroun al Rachid, etc??
      > > Kenneth
      >
      >
      > ******* Well, to perhaps oversimplify what Steiner says, I believe
      you'll
      > find in his many references to the history of thinking and
      philosophy that
      > about 600 years before the Christ impulse, a sort of "Luciferic"
      shadow-image
      > of it appeared in Greek philosophy, while about 600 years after it,
      appeared
      > an "Ahrimanic" after-image in Islam. The greatest fruit of Greek
      philosophy
      > was the creation of logic with Aristotle, which one on to remake
      the whole
      > world; and this was almost entirely lost to Western Europe and only
      preserved
      > in Arabic translation. In his lectures on Thomas Aquinas, Steiner
      says that
      > during this time of its translation into Arabic, Aristotelian
      thought was
      > given a materialistic "spin" which could have been used by the anti-
      Christian
      > powers to undermine the Christ-impulse, and this was why Aquinas
      appeared
      > just at the time when the Aristotelian writings, with a subtle
      materialistic
      > bias, were translated back into Latin. The materialistic re-casting
      of Greek
      > thought has progressed in the Islamic world, and produced Islamic
      > fundamentalism, where even Heaven is thought of as a very physical
      place with
      > fruit trees, virgins to service the men, etc. (I guess no women go
      to heaven,
      > or if they do it's only if they're lesbians? Maybe some Islamic
      scholar could
      > enlighten us about the '72 virgins' verse.)
      >
      > So I wouldn't say that Islam originated anything, it passed
      along Greek
      > thinking. In its heyday of Maimonides, Avicenna and Averroes it
      contributed
      > to science, but it developed a weakness to being tempted by an
      Ahrimanic
      > attitude to all things. This is why he we have the biased "science"
      of the
      > present day, because the same Ahrimanically-tainted souls who lived
      then
      > became Charles Darwin, et al. There have been no contributions to
      world
      > thought, science or progress from the Islamic world in at least 600
      years.
      > There was a milieu within which the souls seeking to bring mankind
      forward
      > could incarnate in the ninth, 10th, 11th and 12th centuries, but
      then things
      > degenerated. It's of no more use now than incarnating in Greece
      would be to a
      > present-day Aristotle.
      >
      > Japanese thinking became free to contribute to world progress
      after its
      > one-sidedness led it into a disaster and it had to suffer defeat in
      war.
      > Perhaps the reform movement that must come in Islam will have to go
      through
      > something similar before it can regenerate that old religion. Both
      Judaism
      > and Christianity have had their "Reformations" which were necessary
      for men's
      > minds to become free from the shackles of tradition, regardless of
      how good
      > the tradition was. Hinduism was reformed by its contact with the
      British and
      > then the revolution and Gandhi. Only Islam has yet to have one. It
      appears to
      > be dividing into a forward-moving Islam and a retrograde one
      heading back
      > into the dark ages. That retrograde one is harmful for human beings
      in the
      > present and so cannot stand, and all this war is about is helping
      it die out
      > as quickly as possible, helping it to join fascism and communism in
      the Dust
      > Bin of History.
      >
      > BTW, as if what I said couldn't be the source of enough
      arguments, a
      > Moslem friend of mine after many years of study concluded that
      Mohammed just
      > borrowed stuff from Christians and Jews whose caravans came through
      Arabia,
      > and slapped together his religion out of all this, just as a
      vehicle for his
      > tribe to go back and capture Mecca. My Egyptian friend was very
      skeptical
      > about any of the so-called 'visions' being real, just as I am about
      Joseph
      > Smith and the Mormons. Of course nobody likes to call a religion
      flatly
      > false, but he, after a lifetime of practicing Islam, had concluded
      that it
      > was basically just a composite put together by a merchant with no
      real
      > spiritual experience. Of course, since he didn't live in an
      enlightened
      > Islamic country like Turkey, he felt free to express his opinion
      only here in
      > America. Here we allow people to say that Jesus was a fraud and the
      > Christians stole everything from the earlier pagan religions,
      although we are
      > nominally a Christian country; I guess that's what marks a people
      as
      > enlightened and tolerant, whether they can allow that. We tolerate
      our Salman
      > Rushdies. Any religion that really believes it has truth, and that
      wants to
      > practice what it preaches, should always be able to.
      > -starman
      >
      >
      > > --- In anthroposophy@y..., DRStarman2001@a... wrote:
      > > > lightsearcher1@y... writes:
      > > > > In the lecture excerpts below, Rudy does not * overtly *
      define
      > > the implicit
      > > > > connection he is making here between the "Islam" of the early
      > > portion of
      > > > > his lecture and the furious, demonic rage and destructiveness
      he
      > > builds to
      > > > > and ends up speaking about at the end..... ....but to me the
      > > connection â€"
      > > > > and his intent â€" are MANIFEST. Why else would he bookend
      a
      > > single lecture
      > > > > with ISLAM at the start...and furious "Sorat-ian" rage at
      the
      > > conclusion ?
      > > > >
      > > > > *******Boy, you sure have made a Politically Incorrect post
      here,
      > > talking
      > > > > about the reality of what's reared its head since 1998. Be
      > > prepared to have
      > > > > bricks thrown at you by everyone who doesn't want to hear
      about
      > > this
      > > > > materialist anti-religion and what it really is. Everyone
      here
      > > seems to
      > > > > want to think Coca-Cola or Ford is the Antichrist, not
      demonic
      > > Dark Age
      > > > > religious fanatics killing innocent civilians in flaming
      > > holocausts. But
      > > > > thanks for posting Steiner's prescient remarks.
      > > > > -starman
      > > >
      > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
      > > > > Excerpt from a lecture by Rudolf Steiner
      > > > > September 1924 / Switzerland
      > > > > From one basic way of considering this matter, there are two
      > > > > realms: the realm of NATURE â€" which is the realm of the
      Father
      > > > > (the source of the created world both spiritually and
      physically)
      > > â€"
      > > > > and the realm of the SPIRIT.
      > > > > The Mohammedan teachings do not know the structure of the
      > > > > world I have just been speaking about. They know â€" and
      can
      > > > > ONLY know â€" the Father.
      > > > > They know only the rigid doctrine: "There is one God, Allah,
      and
      > > > > none beside him, and Mohammed is his Prophet."
      > > > > From this angle, the teachings of Mohammed are the strongest
      > > > > polarity to Christianity.
      > > > > Indeed, resident in a hidden manner within the Islamic
      > > > > worldview is the will to do away with all freedom forever,
      the
      > > will
      > > > > to bring about a purely deterministic spiritual and social
      order
      > > > > that would dominate every aspect of human life, for nothing
      else
      > > > > is possible if you imagine the world solely in the sense of a
      > > > > Father God alone.
      > > > > A foreboding of this gave the apocalypse-writer (John) the
      > > > > feeling: The human being cannot be found, or find himself, in
      > > > > this. The human being cannot become filled through and
      > > > > through with Christ if he remains connected with the doctrine
      of
      > > > > the Father (alone).
      > > > > Restricted to this, the human being cannot take hold of his
      own
      > > > > humanness. He fails to become fully human if he is only able
      to
      > > > > conceive the Father God.
      > > > > In the end, the human being only becomes human by making
      > > > > Christ alive within himself and thereby gaining protection
      from
      > > > > the material conviction that spiritual realities are
      illusionary
      > > and
      > > > > vaporous epi-phenomena of purely material causes.
      > > > > Entertainment of the doctrine of the Father (alone)
      inescapably
      > > > > arrives at a conceptual materialism such as represented, for
      > > > > example, by Darwinism, the view that the human being arises
      > > > > from purely material causes.
      > > > > And if we regard Christianity primarily as that which accords
      > > with
      > > > > the Sun forces spiritually speaking, and such as is
      reflected /
      > > > > mirrored / mediated / manifested by the nine ranks of angelic
      > > > > Hierarchies, then we may identify that which OPPOSES these
      > > > > spiritual/sun forces as "anti-sun" forces or as "sun demon."
      > > > > This "sun demon" works COUNTER to the Christian principle in
      > > > > such a way that â€" if a human being were to succumb to
      the lures
      > > > > of the sun demon and his inspiration, then that same human
      > > > > being would â€" by his own free choice â€" surrender
      all inward
      > > > > connection to the divinity of Christ for an inward connection
      > > with
      > > > > the sub-human spiritual realms.
      > > > > The apocalyptist saw this. â€" He felt and saw the mighty
      > > (future)
      > > > > counter-principle of Arabism bursting in on Christianity.
      > > > > It was clear to him that, from this Arabism, everything
      arises
      > > that
      > > > > brings the human being close to the purely animal nature,
      first
      > > of
      > > > > all in his views, but gradually also in his combined impulses
      of
      > > > > will and action.
      > > > > And what the apocalyptist saw BEHIND the future scenes of the
      > > > > looming Mohammdan historical impulse was the sun demon at
      > > > > work, working against the sun forces, against the spiritual
      > > > > sun-intelligence.
      > > > > If asked, the apocalyptist would have called the
      representatives
      > > > > of Arabism in Europe "human beings who have willingly
      > > > > dedicated themselves to the sun demon in their souls' nature."
      > > > > Dear friends, the number 666 represented both the NAME and
      > > > > the TIME when Arabism would flow into Christianity in order
      to
      > > > > impress the seal of materialism upon western culture.
      > > > > The apocalyptist portrays everything that works as a
      > > > > counter-principle to Christianity â€" such as Arabism and
      its
      > > > > deterministic conceptual constructs â€" as direct outflow
      from
      > > the
      > > > > counter-spirituality represented by the sun-demon Surat.
      > > > > And, in the final analysis, everything flowing from Arabism
      was
      > > > > directed ultimately against a spiritual Christian
      understanding
      > > of
      > > > > transubstantiation. External facts certainly do not look as
      if
      > > this
      > > > > were the case but â€" by allotting validity only to the
      Father
      > > principle
      > > > > â€" to the natural world-order, the sun demon forces
      indeed
      > > > > intended to sweep away from human view an immediate feeling
      > > > > for that which is active in the very deepest way in a
      sacrament
      > > > > such as transubstantiation.
      > > > > (The great revolutions that came about in Europe as a result
      of
      > > > > the Crusades belong under the sign of the SECOND occurrence
      > > > > of the number 666….)
      > > > > During the first 666, dear friends, Surat was still hidden
      but
      > > > > actively at work within the external process of outward
      events;
      > > he
      > > > > was not seen in clear outward manifestation.
      > > > > Now before us [in 1924] lies the time of the third number
      666:
      > > > > 1998 A.D.
      > > > > At the end of this (the twentieth) century, the time will
      come
      > > when
      > > > > Surat will ONCE AGAIN raise his head most strongly out of the
      > > > > waves of history.
      > > > > Only two-thirds of the 20th century will have still to run
      before
      > > > > Surat/Sorat once again raises his head most mightily.
      > > > > Before this (twentieth) century is out, he will show himself
      > > > > through his appearance in many human beings as the one by
      > > > > whom many are "possessed."
      > > > > Human beings will appear of whom it will be impossible to
      > > > > believe that they are really human beings.
      > > > > These Surat-inspired human beings will be recognizable by
      their
      > > > > external appearance; in a terrible way they will not only
      scoff
      > > at
      > > > > everything, but will also oppose, and want to destroy, and to
      > > > > push into the abyss anything that is spiritual.
      > > > > Outwardly, they will have intense and strong dispositions,
      with
      > > > > savage countenances, and with furious destructiveness in
      their
      > > > > emotions.
      > > > > The intention to sweep-away anything spiritual will be
      > > > > deep-seated in large numbers of earthly souls, just as the
      > > > > apocalyptist has foreseen in the beast-like countenance, and
      the
      > > > > beast-like strength, that will underlie the deeds of the
      > > adversary
      > > > > over against the spiritual.
      > > > > Even today, hidden rage against spiritual things is already
      > > > > immense, yet it is still in its very early infancy in
      contrast to
      > > what
      > > > > is to come.
      > > > > - - - - - - - - - -
      > >
      >
      >
      > http://www.DrStarman.net
    • Br. Ron
      Brother Bradford sez: ...I for one, can t even imagine Dr. Steiner enjoying the way the Sorath e-mail whizzed into the flaming Islamic issues and called for
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 6, 2002
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        Brother Bradford sez:

        "...I for one, can't even imagine Dr. Steiner enjoying the way the
        Sorath
        e-mail whizzed into the flaming Islamic issues and called for literal
        Cross
        burnings and morbid Islamic profiling. However, I stand behind what
        Starman has just brought in regards to Islamic history."

        I don't think 'flaming' is so much the issue (although it is hard to discuss
        Arabism without sensing the incredible potential for volatile combusition)

        I think it has more to do with understanding the mechanics of Islam as
        it relates to it's instruction book.....the Koran.

        History does provide a bit of a framework. But even if there were no
        documented references to the "Bloody Borders of Islam," this info is written
        indelibly in the Astral Light for anyone with even partially developed
        psychic sensibilities.

        Rudolph Steiner isn't the only credible source to suggest that Islam is a
        progenitor of antichrist (the sun demon... the 'qliphoth of Tiphareth')

        As I said before, unlike the Judeo/Christian scriptural mandates,
        the Koran offers absolutely no mechanism for change.....
        no 'Once and Future King' .. no Redeemer...no sprouting seed...
        no Oversoul offering continuous upgrades by way of etheric
        embedding and quickening.

        Any monotheistic system incapable of change is like a blazing steam
        locomotive with it's wheels welded to the track Sooner or later, somethin's
        gotta give.

        I tend to agree with ol' Nostradamus about the dude with the 'blue turban.'
        It also may be that 9/11 is just the first in a series of triggers leading
        our
        global, cultural 'reactor' toward critical mass. In fact, I would bet on it.


        Br. Ron
      • Bradford Riley
        From: Br. Ron ... Brother Ron brought; ... Bradford responds; Dear, beloved Grail brother; This is the way the world ends This is the
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 6, 2002
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          From: "Br. Ron" <rlloyd@...>
          >Subject: [anthroposophy] Re: RS on * today's * ISLAM
          >Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 02:45:59 -0700

          Brother Ron brought;

          >Any monotheistic system incapable of change is like a blazing steam
          >locomotive with it's wheels welded to the track Sooner or later, somethin's
          >gotta give.
          >
          >I tend to agree with ol' Nostradamus about the dude with the 'blue turban.'
          >It also may be that 9/11 is just the first in a series of triggers leading
          >our
          >global, cultural 'reactor' toward critical mass. In fact, I would bet on
          >it.

          Bradford responds;

          Dear, beloved Grail brother;

          This is the way the world ends
          This is the way the world ends
          This is the way the world ends
          Not with a bang but a whimper.

          Let me offer you a prayer for the Intellectual Soul. The world is not
          threatened by this type of destruction. Demons and Hollow Men need the
          shells and souls of men to inhabit. Because we are now the full blown image
          of "Hollow Men". It is not because Saddam is right and we are wrong. It is
          not because we are right and Saddam is wrong. It is because we have bred a
          form of Fundamentalism here in America and around the world that is equally
          as jaded, as rigid, and as unfree.

          Our own Fundamentalism, stifles human insight into the Christ Being. It
          allows only the trite 'Jesus' to live on, and those who do not follow the
          trite Jesus are Satanist, terrorists, weird. The profile of a Terrorist fits
          anyone who thinks and has different ideas and strong political opinions.

          Good Soul everywhere, Native American, Hindu, Eskimo, are imagined excluded
          from heaven because they have not read the Bible in this incarnation. As far
          as Heaven and lies are concerned, everything is solved because we die, all
          of this nonsense is Fundamentally choking the world. Even as false, Islam,
          not Henry Corbin Islam, but false Islam is Fundamentally choking the world.
          False Islam is another retarded force that has outlived its mission. Hebrews
          have also outlived there mission. These stand and babble today, attempting
          to think and survive in the dawning Consciousness Soul which makes all of us
          brothers and sisters and unites all religions.

          The Hollow Men and the Intellectual Soul, loves the Ahrimanic tendency
          toward Fundamentalism because here all the old world politics and all the
          old church justifications for there own history of terror, rises again. 90%
          of the world has no clue about the true nature of Christ, the vast world of
          Freedom and the Consciousness Soul and this is what is desired. Keep
          everyone bickering over simplistic, idiotic issues which require socially
          mob generated, ignorant thought forms. Nothing is truer than the idea that
          worlds of thought, fought long before wars appear.

          Either Fundamental dogmas out of Science of the West telling us all what
          vaccinations we 'must have' because the west must have a fundamentalism of
          disease, latent in the world are monster diseases and we will need to get a
          clean genetic slate, to have a safe world. Let us grasp the idiocy of the
          War on Cancer. An endless War, which leads to more and more ignorant
          infringement and investment gain in stupidity to have corporations profit
          from more lies. But as Hollow Men and Women, we prefer the lies. The
          Ahrimanic and Luciferic forces prefer a social mob thought of fear on every
          issue in order to capture and hold the shell of humans. The world is no good
          to Ahrimanic and Luciferic agendas if humans are destroyed. The inroads must
          be socially mandated and kill all freedoms with a droning, Orwellian, World
          regime of fear and socially mandated dogmas.

          Listen to the Song of the Intellectual Soul as sung by T.S. Eliot, it is
          certainly us. This is as ugly as Saddam is.

          We are the hollow men
          We are the stuffed men
          Leaning together
          Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
          Our dried voices, when
          We whisper together
          Are quiet and meaningless
          As wind in dry grass
          Or rats' feet over broken glass
          In our dry cellar

          Shape without form, shade without colour,
          Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

          Those who have crossed
          With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
          Remember us -- if at all -- not as lost
          Violent souls, but only
          As the hollow men
          The stuffed men.

          Eyes I dare not meet in dreams
          In death's dream kingdom
          These do not appear:
          There, the eyes are
          Sunlight on a broken column
          There, is a tree swinging
          And voices are
          In the wind's singing
          More distant and more solemn
          Than a fading star.

          This is the dead land
          This is cactus land
          Here the stone images
          Are raised, here they receive
          The supplication of a dead man's hand
          Under the twinkle of a fading star.

          Is it like this
          In death's other kingdom
          Waking alone
          At the hour when we are
          Trembling with tenderness
          Lips that would kiss
          Form prayers to broken stone.

          The eyes are not here
          There are no eyes here
          In this valley of dying stars
          In this hollow valley
          This broken jaw of our lost kingdoms

          In this last of meeting places
          We grope together
          And avoid speech
          Gathered on this beach of the tumid river

          Between the idea
          And the reality
          Between the motion
          And the act
          Falls the Shadow

          For Thine is the Kingdom

          Between the conception
          And the creation
          Between the emotion
          And the response
          Falls the Shadow

          Between the desire
          And the spasm
          Between the potency
          And the existence
          Between the essence
          And the descent
          Falls the Shadow
          For Thine is the Kingdom

          This is the way the world ends
          This is the way the world ends
          This is the way the world ends
          Not with a bang but a whimper.

          http://www.thedubyareport.com/chuckman3.html

          ****** "Now, almost no one on the planet likes Saddam Hussein. He is a
          grim, bloody figure; not just another strong-man. His government routinely
          threatens entire families of prominent Iraqis who spend time abroad and
          might consider not returning, a tactic borrowed from Stalin's reign of
          terror.

          Saddam has gassed thousands of his own Kurdish people and thousands, perhaps
          tens of thousands, of Iranian soldiers. But in the sphere of international
          relations, moral considerations count for little. After all, his most brutal
          acts were carried out under a long period of America's smiling favor.
          Saddam, like so many torturers and murderers from Shah Pahlevi to General
          Pinochet, was fine so long as he served the right interests.

          Despite his having fallen into disfavor, the hard fact is he remains a
          serious threat to no one but his own people.

          The noises we hear about invasion provide a measure of Mr. Bush's ineptness
          at his job. His Secretary of Defense argues publicly with newspapers about
          what is fit to print.

          But on a less superficial level, there is simply no reason to attack Iraq.
          There is not a jot of evidence that Iraq is associated with al Qaeda.
          Promoting nonsense like an Axis of Evil might carry weight with America's
          superstitious, lunatic fringe, particularly its large Texas chapter, but it
          is ridiculed by all the world's hard-nosed statesmen and pragmatic
          observers. It's not as though the U.S. has ignored Saddam since Bush p�re
          kissed the White House good-bye. The CIA spent huge amounts of money trying
          to foster opposition forces in Iraq, only to see Saddam's troops roll up
          their efforts, adding another statistic to the CIA's long record of
          poorly-conceived projects.

          The CIA's propensity for these kinds of projects, what we might call its
          Bay-of-Pigs Syndrome, results from the unthinking demands America's
          political leaders so often make of it. Almost the entire record of America's
          post-war interventions reflects bitter domestic politics and ideology rather
          than genuine threats to genuine American interests. Here is prima facie
          evidence, if any were needed, of chronic, poor national leadership resulting
          from an antiquated, money-corrupted political system.

          The U.S. has been bombing Iraq regularly at low intensity for a decade,
          using the rationale of enforcing its "no-fly zones." These zones were
          conceived at least in part to humiliate Saddam and encourage his overthrow.
          A powerful blockade - embargo is the nice word - of Iraq has also been in
          place for all those years (something which unquestionably contributed to the
          deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi children despite the tiresome
          apologists at the State Department).

          The fact that Saddam remains firmly in power after years of effort tells us
          something about his grip on Iraqi society. There is no opposition worthy of
          the name. The "progressive" press in the U.S. has carried dump-truck loads
          of articles about Bush and Iraq. The most recent convoy of them has Bush
          using war in Iraq to cover a sour economy before either upcoming
          Congressional elections or his own effort at reelection.

          But despite the stock market's performance, the American economy is not all
          that sour. It is actually in reasonably healthy condition by a number of
          measures. But for some people now, only historically-ridiculous levels of
          stock-market performance over the last decade are judged as healthy. This
          kind of expectation is simply a new twist on "I want it all, and I want it
          now!" A very popular sentiment in America.

          Things are "going down the toilet" when yuppie 401Ks are doing badly. Upper
          middle-class America is angry and is stomping its expensively-tennis-shoed
          foot about what counts: its portfolio.

          It is a simple fact that markets do not like uncertainty. Part of what has
          happened to stocks reflects Mr. Bush's own actions and policies. He is
          correctly perceived as inept, although few Americans will say so publicly in
          a situation reckoned as a state of quasi-war. From the limited perspective
          of the stock market, Bush's offset to ineptness has been a willingness to
          let business do pretty much as it wishes. While stocks climbed and balance
          sheets seemed honest, a lot of people thought that was fine policy.

          Generally overlooked, too, is the simple fact that stock markets do not like
          wars and rumors of wars. And Bush is "staying the course," like a mule in
          the only rut of a path it knows, concerning his poorly-defined war on
          terror, involving any number of countries and an indefinite future.

          Leaders abroad are almost unanimous in rejecting Mr. Bush's grade-school
          ideas for dealing with Iraq. Since a few other countries - Japan, Saudi
          Arabia, and Germany - paid much of the bill for Desert Storm, it means that
          this time the U.S. is going to pay its own bills in a far more demanding
          conflict. This is not something stock markets like. "

          Bradford

          _________________________________________________________________
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        • Br. Ron
          Folks, please forgive the somewhat personal nature of this post. I have been wanting to write to Bradford privately for a while but since he approached the
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 6, 2002
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            Folks, please forgive the somewhat personal nature of this post.
            I have been wanting to write to Bradford privately for a while
            but since he approached the topic on this list, I feel it is only
            right to reply in kind. You may feel more comfortable simply
            deleting this rather than having to wade through the somewhat
            cloistered subject matter. 
             
            BR
             
             
             
             
             
            Sir Bradford...
            Let me start by telling you how much I appreciate your gift.
            You have an overview of synchronicities and harmonics that
            could only be attributed to one with Vision...(note the capital 'V')

            Furthermore, I find little to disagree with in your colorful writings.
            In principle, I don't wholly disagree with your position in this
            post in regards to the geo-political situation of America and it's
            approach to her perceived enemies.

            Yet, there are points in which we don't quite see eye to eye...
            (nor is it even necessary that we do, except that it is natural
            to seek to be understood as well as to understand)

            First, I am not a fundamentalist. (Fundamentalists are those who
            point the crooked finger of accusation at weirdoes like myself who
            walk into a Seven-Eleven wearing a wizard costume, on our way to
            perform at the Renaissance Faire.
             
            But two years ago, I had a major metanoia concerning this.
            It was so major...and so subjective, that I can't even discuss it
            without diluting it's meaning.
             
            It was so upturning that my muse, Ariel, left me for a whole year
            because of the volcanic recognition of my overplus of Ideality in
            relation to Reality. I was paralyzed musically, and for one who
            has fed his family for 40 years with the fruits of melody, you can
            imagine how upsetting this was...not only for me but for my whole
            tribe. Zanoni was fully eclipsed by Mejnour..... and as one who
            perpetually inhabited the flowered heights of La La Land, I hated it.
             
            I have since recognized the fine line between being a 'fundamentalist'
            and acknowledging the periodic necessity of returning to the
            'fundamentals' of something. I generally dislike 'progressive jazz'
            because it often departs too severely from the fundamental
            heart of the melody.
             
            In my view, this same pathology often extends to Anthroposophists
            in relation to the Heart of the Christ Being and the beginning of the
            concert as it was written 2000 years ago,  at the Hub of Time..and timing.
             
            Christianity as a melody has an infinitely simple (as well as an infinitely
            complex) structure. Right now I am in the mode of gleaning the Original
            Melody as interpreted by some of the more traditional avenues like
            Catholicism, Tomberg, Orthodoxy, etc. (I've always done everything
            backward....Similarly, I have played 'by ear' my whole life...and am
            only now getting around to learning to read music :-)
             
            As a 'New Ager,' I took pride in my ability to play all the different
            'concerts of philosophy' at the same time but eventually found I was 
            becoming so "spiritually well rounded" that I wasn't really going anywhere.
            I have since learned (for me) the value of sticking with Vivaldi on Monday
            night and saving Bach until Tuesday.
             
            Now to politics.
             
            George Bush is not as stupid as I originally thought. In spite of his
            inarticulation ('nukular' instead of nuclear, et al) he seems to have a handle
            on the fundaments of the American Spirit. Yes, he is too prone to back
            entrepreneur and corporate culture at the expense of the weak, the poor
            the homeless, etc but this is the urgency of the zeitgeist, methinks. The
            pendulum will swing back...it always does
             
            What Bush DOES have, perhaps unconsciously, is a knowledge of
            'as above, so below.'  "Patriotism," it is said, "is the last refuge of a
            scoundrel." 
            Perhaps...but leftists who protesteth too much don't yet realize that
            a cell which too often condemns the very body that gives it succor,
            eventually becomes subject to the very 'bacteria cops' which will
            expel it from the whole body.
             
            The fact is, that any freedom that exists in the West today is the result
            of those who lovingly sacrificed themselves on the Plains of Pelinore.
             
            No, this isn't the Ideal...but it is the reality of the situation.
             
            I am not saying to attack Iraq...but what I AM saying is that we
            must be realistic in our approach to Evil. We can simply be
            'Gary Goodguy' and trust that as the Etheric Christ descends all
            these things will work themselves out...and ultimately this is true.
             
            But I wholeheartedly believe that in order to be able to align our
            molecules to the descending Oversoul of Redemption, we must
            understand what the essence of Christianity is.
             
            In my mind and heart, I see it as quite simply the pursuit of
            Cosmic Beauty.
            Yet what makes the melody beautiful is the resolution
            of the discordant notes into the 'ah ha' of the harmonious.
            We nevertheless need the discordants. Without them
            the melody would be all tonics and hence too sweet.
             
            The roses likewise can't bloom unless they are subjected to the
            pruning shears of the master gardener.....nor can we humans don
            our Wedding Garments until we have descended into the hell of
            the crucifixion to liberate the sparks entrapped there.
             
            This is what has made America so great. She has put her
            money where her mouth is and courageously entered the fray
            against those Orcs and tyrannical forces which have threatened
            the freedoms of the innocents.
             
            The only times we have failed at this is when we had fissures
            in our collective will and didn't deal with the problem 100% ...
            Like we didn't in Somalia...like we didn't in Vietnam.
            If we were truly the UNITED States....not divided... but 100% into
            the deterrence of tyranny, there would be no need for war in the
            first place.
             
            "Be ye hot or be ye cold..."
             
            When will we have the courage to recognize our destiny as the
            leader of the world's impulse toward Freedom?
            Bravely seizing the scepter of power in order to lead in this is not
            the same as a mere bullying arrogance.
             
            War is the result of our own fragmented intent, pictured outwardly
            upon the screen of Creation.
             
            I'm sure I won't be changing your mind here Bradford, but I did feel the
            need to at least attempt a deeper understanding of my non-fundamentalist
            position.
             
            By the way, I just saw a Kurdish diplomat on TV relating the continuous
            torture and subjugation from the hands of Saddam. This is no more
            acceptable than the Taliban's torture of women, Milosevic's torturous barbarism
            against the Bosnians nor Hitler's massacres of the many millions upon his black
            altar.
             
            We must fearlessly approach Mt. Doom and face these shells which
            seek to undermine The Love of the Christos.....and not bend to the sinister
            temptation of mere appeasement.
             
            This is my view...and I understand that honest men and women can disagree
            about these things. I also understand that only history will tell if we were right
            in our collective geo-political actions.
             
            But whether it be for war or for peace...I pray that we act as One Will in
            our movement. Only this can assure the victory of either path.
             
            As of now, it looks as if our congress and allies are coalescing behind
            taking out Saddam. If this could be done without war, all the better....
            but be done it must. Saddamy cannot be tolerated
             
            Thanks for reading this, my creative friend.
             
             
            Br. Ron
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
          • elaineupton2001
            Hello Marc (new to me), and all on this thread, You ask questions about Ibrahim Abouleish and what he might or might not say (or have said) in a talk at the
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 7, 2002
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              Hello Marc (new to me), and all on this thread,

              You ask questions about Ibrahim Abouleish and what he might or might
              not say (or have said) in a talk at the Goetheanum about Islam and
              Christianity, Mohammed and Christ. I have no direct answer to your
              question, and neither can I comment directly on the controversial
              Pietro Archiati's role in reporting this.--I can only say that it is
              best to go to the source. Ibrahim Abouleish is, as far as I know (and
              I know from a close friend, which is still second-hand knowing)
              highly regarded in places in Egypt. His work at Sekem has been highly
              praised and I have seen some of the results, when I lived in Africa
              (biodynamic work, etc. in a large community). But check out Sekem
              (Egypt's) website, and research more for yourself on Abouleish. I
              know that he and another anthroposophic friend of mine are
              translating the Koran...and I also read the statement from Sekem,
              after 9/11, a statement of peace and good wishes to the U.S.

              More at present I cannot say, but I do suggest you go to the source--
              the Vorstand and Abouleish, not Archiat, even though he may be
              correct.

              Blessings,
              elaine

              --- In anthroposophy@y..., brocartmarc@a... wrote:
              > Hello you all,
              >
              > I have read some days ago a leaflet issued seemingly by Pietro
              Archiati,
              > quoting the same lecture in connection with Dr Ibrahim Abuleish
              being invited
              > by the Vorstand to speak before the Goetheanum's audience in 1995
              and 2001 at
              > the "Religions of the world" session.
              > In his book "Islam und Anthroposophie " issued at the Verlag am
              Goetheanum
              > under the supervision of Virginia Sease, Dr Ibrahim Abuleish tries
              to tie
              > those two streams together . For him , Jesus was the bearer of the
              Christ
              > impulse and could then be called Jesus Christ, and Muhammad 700
              years later
              > as the new bearer of the Christ impulse could then be called
              Muhammad
              > Christ.
              > Abouleish's wiew implies the Second Coming of Christ was
              Muhammad , and the
              > goals of christianism to be fulfilled by islam.(!)
              > Archiati states that if Abuleish is free to express what he
              thinks , the
              > Vorstand should not give audience to such an antinomy of
              Anthroposophy and
              > Christianism, and moreover has to take a clear position , instead
              of giving
              > it a seal of authenticity.
              >
              > Has anyone heard of a statement of the Vorstand on this subject ?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Best regards
              >
              > Marc
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