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  • Danny F.
    The Littleton Killers: Monsters or Victims? I plead for us to look at the Littleton tragedy in a different way. I think Eric and Dylan, the two teenagers who
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 20 7:54 PM
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      The Littleton Killers: Monsters or Victims?

      I plead for us to look at the Littleton tragedy in a different way. I
      think Eric and Dylan, the two teenagers who killed the thirteen people
      and then themselves, are more the victims, than actors of this tragedy.
      I see them as victims of our materialistic culture and our
      self-complacent society. I see all of us as the real actors, those of
      us more so, who are responsible for shaping the values -- or lack of
      them -- by which we live.

      Of course we can sing a hymn to the grandeur of our culture and to the
      greatness of our society. A more important point to consider, is that
      more and more of our youth are telling us that they don't like the type
      of life we rave about.

      In increasing numbers they say our culture is 'phony', and they also
      claim that it is 'boring' and 'empty'. They say they feel lonely and
      isolated in a world in which people are only valued for what they have
      or do. They feel the need to valued for who they are. They are outraged
      at the President for preaching at them to solve their conflicts with
      words -- while simultaneously he seeks to resolve the conflict in
      Serbia not with words but with bombs. And isn't it paradoxical for him
      to invite everyone to pray in a country, that has banned prayer from
      public schools?

      I even think many a youth would be prepared to forgive society's
      duplicity, if they could at least resolve their feelings of desperation
      and anguish engendered by the emptiness and lack of true ideals in our
      materialistic culture.

      Do we really think those to be the best of our youth, that become tamed
      and eventually conform, giving up one after the other of their best
      ideals in the name of the realism that kills you inside so that you can
      conform to societal norms on the outside? I am not advocating that more
      youth rebel. Quite the contrary, I am pleading for a kind of society
      where violent rebellion would be unnecessary rather than for one that
      continues to ensure that tragedies such as this one will occur.

      In a letter to USA TODAY, someone wrote. "For once, let the adults of
      this nation, in unison, find the courage to ask: 'How did we come to
      raise children filled with fear and rage and loneliness? What can be
      said of a culture that forever puts the production and accumulation of
      meaningless material objects ahead of the spirits, hearts and minds of
      its own children? Where are we as a people, how did we get here and
      where do we want to go now?'" Beautiful words! But will they remain
      only words?

      My main contention is that Dylan's and Eric's "madness", even their
      seeking a racial scapegoat, was the only way they could find to numb
      their pain for feeling lonely and insignificant, for being alienated as
      members of our society. Consider the lack of positive human
      communication in their lives: for months they were planning the
      unimaginable, and no one even noticed. If our culture kills millions
      spiritually without noticing, do we have the right to be outraged when
      two kids try to tell us that they do notice, in the only way
      perceivable to us: physical killing'?

      I see a great difference in the earlier photos of Eric and Dylan
      compared to the one taken closer to their death. In the latter, I see
      faces darkened and quite really "possessed". But the darkest forces can
      only take over where inner emptiness has become so unbearable that
      being possessed has the effect of a welcome numbing drug.

      It is very normal for human nature to find spiritual emptiness
      unbearable. In searching for inner truth, it is tragic that social
      acceptance or "political correctness" often takes a higher priority. We
      must take care that than dogma of relativism does not condemn us all to
      spiritual starvation.

      Let us not be quelled by those who would say that such 'cases' only
      occur in a negligible portion of society. This makes as much sense as a
      physician saying of an incipient cancer: never mind, the number of
      diseased cells, compared to the total sum of cells, is really
      negligible. Quantitative thinking belongs to the essence of
      materialism: it overlooks the fact that social cancer is not just the
      problem of a few cells, but of the whole body. More importantly: we
      overlook the fact that only the whole body as a unit can be the cause
      of a cancer, and that the problem can only be solved by addressing the
      whole body. It is urgent that we acknowledge and adopt a holistic
      approach to all aspects of our society.

      There is one fundamental question the tragedy of Littleton compels us
      to ask: what does the future hold for these fifteen souls? In our
      materialistic culture we have come to identify the human being with his
      or her body. I think it is important for our western culture to reflect
      more scientifically and systematically on the question of reincarnation
      and karma. Then perhaps those who so tragically died will have awakened
      us to the common mission that each of us must participate in
      spiritually renewing our whole human family.

      Pietro Archiati
      May, 1999






      =====
      'There's a fine line between participation and mockery'.
      --Scott Adams

      'My advice to you is to get married. If you find a good wife, you'll be happy; if not, you'll become a philosopher'.

      'True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing'.
      --Socrates
      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
      http://im.yahoo.com
    • Joel A. Wendt
      ... Dear Danny, There is much truth in the above, in that it is sympathetic to the two young men. It is also deeply flawed, in that it fails to see the
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 26 8:41 AM
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        Danny F. quoted Pietro Archaiti as follows:

        > The Littleton Killers: Monsters or Victims?
        >
        > I plead for us to look at the Littleton tragedy in a different way. I
        > think Eric and Dylan, the two teenagers who killed the thirteen people
        > and then themselves, are more the victims, than actors of this tragedy.
        > I see them as victims of our materialistic culture and our
        > self-complacent society. I see all of us as the real actors, those of
        > us more so, who are responsible for shaping the values -- or lack of
        > them -- by which we live.
        >
        > Of course we can sing a hymn to the grandeur of our culture and to the
        > greatness of our society. A more important point to consider, is that
        > more and more of our youth are telling us that they don't like the type
        > of life we rave about.
        >
        > In increasing numbers they say our culture is 'phony', and they also
        > claim that it is 'boring' and 'empty'. They say they feel lonely and
        > isolated in a world in which people are only valued for what they have
        > or do. They feel the need to valued for who they are. They are outraged
        > at the President for preaching at them to solve their conflicts with
        > words -- while simultaneously he seeks to resolve the conflict in
        > Serbia not with words but with bombs. And isn't it paradoxical for him
        > to invite everyone to pray in a country, that has banned prayer from
        > public schools?
        >
        > I even think many a youth would be prepared to forgive society's
        > duplicity, if they could at least resolve their feelings of desperation
        > and anguish engendered by the emptiness and lack of true ideals in our
        > materialistic culture.
        >
        > Do we really think those to be the best of our youth, that become tamed
        > and eventually conform, giving up one after the other of their best
        > ideals in the name of the realism that kills you inside so that you can
        > conform to societal norms on the outside? I am not advocating that more
        > youth rebel. Quite the contrary, I am pleading for a kind of society
        > where violent rebellion would be unnecessary rather than for one that
        > continues to ensure that tragedies such as this one will occur.
        >
        > In a letter to USA TODAY, someone wrote. "For once, let the adults of
        > this nation, in unison, find the courage to ask: 'How did we come to
        > raise children filled with fear and rage and loneliness? What can be
        > said of a culture that forever puts the production and accumulation of
        > meaningless material objects ahead of the spirits, hearts and minds of
        > its own children? Where are we as a people, how did we get here and
        > where do we want to go now?'" Beautiful words! But will they remain
        > only words?
        >
        > My main contention is that Dylan's and Eric's "madness", even their
        > seeking a racial scapegoat, was the only way they could find to numb
        > their pain for feeling lonely and insignificant, for being alienated as
        > members of our society. Consider the lack of positive human
        > communication in their lives: for months they were planning the
        > unimaginable, and no one even noticed. If our culture kills millions
        > spiritually without noticing, do we have the right to be outraged when
        > two kids try to tell us that they do notice, in the only way
        > perceivable to us: physical killing'?
        >
        > I see a great difference in the earlier photos of Eric and Dylan
        > compared to the one taken closer to their death. In the latter, I see
        > faces darkened and quite really "possessed". But the darkest forces can
        > only take over where inner emptiness has become so unbearable that
        > being possessed has the effect of a welcome numbing drug.
        >
        > It is very normal for human nature to find spiritual emptiness
        > unbearable. In searching for inner truth, it is tragic that social
        > acceptance or "political correctness" often takes a higher priority. We
        > must take care that than dogma of relativism does not condemn us all to
        > spiritual starvation.
        >
        > Let us not be quelled by those who would say that such 'cases' only
        > occur in a negligible portion of society. This makes as much sense as a
        > physician saying of an incipient cancer: never mind, the number of
        > diseased cells, compared to the total sum of cells, is really
        > negligible. Quantitative thinking belongs to the essence of
        > materialism: it overlooks the fact that social cancer is not just the
        > problem of a few cells, but of the whole body. More importantly: we
        > overlook the fact that only the whole body as a unit can be the cause
        > of a cancer, and that the problem can only be solved by addressing the
        > whole body. It is urgent that we acknowledge and adopt a holistic
        > approach to all aspects of our society.
        >
        > There is one fundamental question the tragedy of Littleton compels us
        > to ask: what does the future hold for these fifteen souls? In our
        > materialistic culture we have come to identify the human being with his
        > or her body. I think it is important for our western culture to reflect
        > more scientifically and systematically on the question of reincarnation
        > and karma. Then perhaps those who so tragically died will have awakened
        > us to the common mission that each of us must participate in
        > spiritually renewing our whole human family.
        >
        > Pietro Archiati
        > May, 1999
        >

        Dear Danny,

        There is much truth in the above, in that it is sympathetic to the two young men. It is also deeply flawed, in that
        it fails to see the "spiritual emptyness" of the age as a necessary rite of passage, but instead sees "disease". The
        social body of humanity is in "process", and undergoing a major change at fundamental levels, a type of metamorphosis
        from one civlization to another, during which "evil" is very necessary in order for the "waking up" to occur that
        belongs to the current stage of the evolution of consciousness.

        I am presently organizing a series of lectures on this very theme, which will hopefully be given sometime this late
        spring or early summer, in the home of transcendentalism, Concord Massachusettes.
        "Transcendentalism Comes of Age

        a series of four lectures
        by Joel A. Wendt


        (time and place open)
        The Hidden Mystery of the Columbine Tragedy: Young men come to their schools and kill their teachers and fellow
        students. Are they trying to tell us something they otherwise can't consciously express? Our social order has replaced
        wisdom with expertise and, in the process, has become blind to the life of the soul. This lecture will give an overview
        of the depths of the social context out of which such violence arises

        (time and place open)
        The Topology of the Soul: In the age of Science, human divine inner life seems to many a untenable illusion. Yet, wise
        thinkers, from Emerson to Steiner, have opened up the possiblity for an objective (scientific) introspection of inner
        life. On the basis of such a careful and precise self examination the whole question of the apparent incompatability of
        science and religion turns inside out. The soul capacities (powers) of reason, imagination and devotion will be
        discussed in this lecture, along with their relationship to the older ideals of truth, beauty and goodness, and their
        present day manifestations in civilization as science, art and religion.

        (time and place open)
        The Strange Fire of the Day of Purification: the death, and the ressurection, of modern civilization: Without a
        knowledge of soul and spirit it is not possible to truely understand the dynamics of modern life. We live in a sea of
        experiences which makes of our lives an alchemical crucible for transformation. Neither the daily newspaper nor the
        modern politician understands the real substance behind events, a drama which includes the ongoing metamorphosis from
        one form of civilization into another. In this lecture, this extraordinary and divinely evolved social rite of passage
        is unveiled for the delight, and edification, of the life of the mind.

        (time and place open)
        The Mastery of the Soul through the Elevation of the Spirit: Darkness enters the world because of the existence of human
        freedom. We can only truely know the good through first appreciating and understanding our own capacity for evil.
        Without real choice, we cannot manifest either. In this lecture we will discover that much that is dark in our own
        souls we cannot transform directly. Only by deepening the truest yearnings of our own spirit can the real possibilities
        unfold."

        joel
      • Danny F.
        ... Hi Joel, This is St-Paul that says: Everything is allowed but not everything is good . In other words Paul tells us that freedom is a fact! But not
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 26 12:14 PM
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          --- "Joel A. Wendt" <hermit@...> wrote:
          > Danny F. quoted Pietro Archaiti as follows:
          >
          > > The Littleton Killers: Monsters or Victims?
          > >
          > > I plead for us to look at the Littleton tragedy in a different way.
          > I
          > > think Eric and Dylan, the two teenagers who killed the thirteen
          > people
          > > and then themselves, are more the victims, than actors of this
          > tragedy.
          > > I see them as victims of our materialistic culture and our
          > > self-complacent society. I see all of us as the real actors, those
          > of
          > > us more so, who are responsible for shaping the values -- or lack
          > of
          > > them -- by which we live.
          > >
          > > Of course we can sing a hymn to the grandeur of our culture and to
          > the
          > > greatness of our society. A more important point to consider, is
          > that
          > > more and more of our youth are telling us that they don't like the
          > type
          > > of life we rave about.
          > >
          > > In increasing numbers they say our culture is 'phony', and they
          > also
          > > claim that it is 'boring' and 'empty'. They say they feel lonely
          > and
          > > isolated in a world in which people are only valued for what they
          > have
          > > or do. They feel the need to valued for who they are. They are
          > outraged
          > > at the President for preaching at them to solve their conflicts
          > with
          > > words -- while simultaneously he seeks to resolve the conflict in
          > > Serbia not with words but with bombs. And isn't it paradoxical for
          > him
          > > to invite everyone to pray in a country, that has banned prayer
          > from
          > > public schools?
          > >
          > > I even think many a youth would be prepared to forgive society's
          > > duplicity, if they could at least resolve their feelings of
          > desperation
          > > and anguish engendered by the emptiness and lack of true ideals in
          > our
          > > materialistic culture.
          > >
          > > Do we really think those to be the best of our youth, that become
          > tamed
          > > and eventually conform, giving up one after the other of their best
          > > ideals in the name of the realism that kills you inside so that you
          > can
          > > conform to societal norms on the outside? I am not advocating that
          > more
          > > youth rebel. Quite the contrary, I am pleading for a kind of
          > society
          > > where violent rebellion would be unnecessary rather than for one
          > that
          > > continues to ensure that tragedies such as this one will occur.
          > >
          > > In a letter to USA TODAY, someone wrote. "For once, let the adults
          > of
          > > this nation, in unison, find the courage to ask: 'How did we come
          > to
          > > raise children filled with fear and rage and loneliness? What can
          > be
          > > said of a culture that forever puts the production and accumulation
          > of
          > > meaningless material objects ahead of the spirits, hearts and minds
          > of
          > > its own children? Where are we as a people, how did we get here and
          > > where do we want to go now?'" Beautiful words! But will they remain
          > > only words?
          > >
          > > My main contention is that Dylan's and Eric's "madness", even their
          > > seeking a racial scapegoat, was the only way they could find to
          > numb
          > > their pain for feeling lonely and insignificant, for being
          > alienated as
          > > members of our society. Consider the lack of positive human
          > > communication in their lives: for months they were planning the
          > > unimaginable, and no one even noticed. If our culture kills
          > millions
          > > spiritually without noticing, do we have the right to be outraged
          > when
          > > two kids try to tell us that they do notice, in the only way
          > > perceivable to us: physical killing'?
          > >
          > > I see a great difference in the earlier photos of Eric and Dylan
          > > compared to the one taken closer to their death. In the latter, I
          > see
          > > faces darkened and quite really "possessed". But the darkest forces
          > can
          > > only take over where inner emptiness has become so unbearable that
          > > being possessed has the effect of a welcome numbing drug.
          > >
          > > It is very normal for human nature to find spiritual emptiness
          > > unbearable. In searching for inner truth, it is tragic that social
          > > acceptance or "political correctness" often takes a higher
          > priority. We
          > > must take care that than dogma of relativism does not condemn us
          > all to
          > > spiritual starvation.
          > >
          > > Let us not be quelled by those who would say that such 'cases' only
          > > occur in a negligible portion of society. This makes as much sense
          > as a
          > > physician saying of an incipient cancer: never mind, the number of
          > > diseased cells, compared to the total sum of cells, is really
          > > negligible. Quantitative thinking belongs to the essence of
          > > materialism: it overlooks the fact that social cancer is not just
          > the
          > > problem of a few cells, but of the whole body. More importantly: we
          > > overlook the fact that only the whole body as a unit can be the
          > cause
          > > of a cancer, and that the problem can only be solved by addressing
          > the
          > > whole body. It is urgent that we acknowledge and adopt a holistic
          > > approach to all aspects of our society.
          > >
          > > There is one fundamental question the tragedy of Littleton compels
          > us
          > > to ask: what does the future hold for these fifteen souls? In our
          > > materialistic culture we have come to identify the human being with
          > his
          > > or her body. I think it is important for our western culture to
          > reflect
          > > more scientifically and systematically on the question of
          > reincarnation
          > > and karma. Then perhaps those who so tragically died will have
          > awakened
          > > us to the common mission that each of us must participate in
          > > spiritually renewing our whole human family.
          > >
          > > Pietro Archiati
          > > May, 1999
          > >
          >
          > Dear Danny,
          >
          > There is much truth in the above, in that it is sympathetic to
          > the two young men. It is also deeply flawed, in that
          > it fails to see the "spiritual emptyness" of the age as a necessary
          > rite of passage, but instead sees "disease". The
          > social body of humanity is in "process", and undergoing a major
          > change at fundamental levels, a type of metamorphosis
          > from one civlization to another, during which "evil" is very
          > necessary in order for the "waking up" to occur that
          > belongs to the current stage of the evolution of consciousness.


          Hi Joel,

          This is St-Paul that says: 'Everything is allowed but not
          everything is good'. In other words Paul tells us that freedom
          is a fact! But 'not everything is good', this has for result
          of the problem and also at the same time the solution lying
          in it. Let us imagine then that freedom is of the nature of
          fire, so I will use it in the most diverse ways until that I
          realise that fire is fascinating but has also the property
          of burning, to create pain. But thing is, if I continue with
          the fire example, that this fire is a supersensible one, so
          in order that I realise the nature and consequence of it's
          activity there is more of a need of a strong and repeated
          stimuli for humanity to associate the pain(which is also the
          evil here) with the use of this fire(freedom), the more
          materialism will continue to live, the more the stimuli of
          the pain and horror will have to continue, and it is absolutly
          evident that a period called CONSCIOUSNESS soul will have to
          bring consciousness and responsability to the use of fire,
          freedom, to the Lucifer in us. So yes, diseased time that we
          live in, but disease is something that the good powers gave to
          mankind as a help to not go astray too much.

          We can see why ethical individualism is something that has
          to florish more and more, else the fire of wars, big and
          small,
          nation against nation or individual against individual, shall
          continue to go on, and the social sphere to continue to be
          occupied by Ahrimanic beings.

          >"There is much truth in the above, in that it is sympathetic
          > to the two young men."

          There is truth for it is the good diagnosis, and that the
          young men are the symptom.

          >"It is also deeply flawed, in that
          >it fails to see the "spiritual emptyness" of the age as a
          >necessary rite of passage, but instead sees "disease".

          This is the holistic(the whole) understanding and vision that
          has to be brought, and it can certainly be done in the form of
          a lecture as you plan to do, but this is my view that to me it
          seem that as in the Persian legend of Christ looking at the
          beautiful teeth of the dead rottening animal, that you indeed
          see the teeth, but DISEASE THERE IS(dead rottening animal); I
          understand then that you see "disease" as something
          tremendously
          pejorative, and in consequence see the "beautiful teeth" of
          the rite of passage no?

          <"The social body of humanity is in "process", and undergoing a
          <major change at fundamental levels, a type of metamorphosis
          <from one civlization to another, during which "evil" is very
          <necessary in order for the "waking up" to occur that
          <belongs to the current stage of the evolution of
          consciousness."

          May we anthroposophists help for this change in that lot's of
          suffrances can be avoided, if humanity decide to choose the
          hardship rather then anthroposophy and anthroposophists be it
          so,
          but let us do our best to bring the healing Spirit, the Holy
          Spirit, and above all the Christ in human evolution. And an
          initiative like yours Joel is definetly something that can do
          much good, and that we badly need.

          Danny




          > I am presently organizing a series of lectures on this
          very
          > theme, which will hopefully be given sometime this late
          > spring or early summer, in the home of transcendentalism, Concord
          > Massachusettes.
          > "Transcendentalism Comes
          > of Age
          >
          > a series of four
          > lectures
          > by Joel A. Wendt
          >
          >
          > (time and place open)
          > The Hidden Mystery of the Columbine Tragedy: Young men come to their
          > schools and kill their teachers and fellow
          > students. Are they trying to tell us something they otherwise can't
          > consciously express? Our social order has replaced
          > wisdom with expertise and, in the process, has become blind to the
          > life of the soul. This lecture will give an overview
          > of the depths of the social context out of which such violence arises
          >
          > (time and place open)
          > The Topology of the Soul: In the age of Science, human divine inner
          > life seems to many a untenable illusion. Yet, wise
          > thinkers, from Emerson to Steiner, have opened up the possiblity for
          > an objective (scientific) introspection of inner
          > life. On the basis of such a careful and precise self examination
          > the whole question of the apparent incompatability of
          > science and religion turns inside out. The soul capacities (powers)
          > of reason, imagination and devotion will be
          > discussed in this lecture, along with their relationship to the older
          > ideals of truth, beauty and goodness, and their
          > present day manifestations in civilization as science, art and
          > religion.
          >
          > (time and place open)
          > The Strange Fire of the Day of Purification: the death, and the
          > ressurection, of modern civilization: Without a
          > knowledge of soul and spirit it is not possible to truely understand
          > the dynamics of modern life. We live in a sea of
          > experiences which makes of our lives an alchemical crucible for
          > transformation. Neither the daily newspaper nor the
          > modern politician understands the real substance behind events, a
          > drama which includes the ongoing metamorphosis from
          > one form of civilization into another. In this lecture, this
          > extraordinary and divinely evolved social rite of passage
          > is unveiled for the delight, and edification, of the life of the
          > mind.
          >
          > (time and place open)
          > The Mastery of the Soul through the Elevation of the Spirit: Darkness
          > enters the world because of the existence of human
          > freedom. We can only truely know the good through first appreciating
          > and understanding our own capacity for evil.
          > Without real choice, we cannot manifest either. In this lecture we
          > will discover that much that is dark in our own
          > souls we cannot transform directly. Only by deepening the truest
          > yearnings of our own spirit can the real possibilities
          > unfold."
          >
          > joel
          >

          =====
          'There's a fine line between participation and mockery'.
          --Scott Adams

          'My advice to you is to get married. If you find a good wife, you'll be happy; if not, you'll become a philosopher'.

          'True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing'.
          --Socrates
          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
          http://im.yahoo.com
        • Demetrue@aol.com
          In a message dated 2/26/00 11:38:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, hermit@tiac.net writes:
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 26 8:29 PM
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            In a message dated 2/26/00 11:38:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, hermit@...
            writes:

            << If our culture kills millions
            > spiritually without noticing, do we have the right to be outraged when
            > two kids try to tell us that they do notice, in the only way
            > perceivable to us: physical killing'? >>
            I could not help but be reminded of the 40-50 million Americans silently
            killed by the private act of abortion in our country since the 1970's....
            Surely killing millions of babies without noticing must be affecting the
            spiritual realms... think of all that silent suffering and invisible trauma
            going on... I can;t believe that it does not get filtered down to us some
            how.... If our economic well-being and wealth is being built upon a
            foundation of murder of unborn souls, then it truly is the culture of death
            and materialism... I also think that the fact that our nation was built upon
            the broken backs of suffering slaves has got to still be affecting us
            today.... Despite our wonderful heritage of Freedom For All, we can;t turn a
            blind eye that much of our prosperity was "stolen" from Native Americans and
            African American slaves.... I do believe we are reaping what we (or our
            ancestors, actually) have sown.. and if you accept reincarnation as fact,
            then we may indeed be reaping what we have sown!
          • John Massengale
            ... Steiner says that many illegitimate births are incarnations of souls who are too lazy or impatient to arrange their lives: they see the spark of sex and
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 26 8:53 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              > Surely killing millions of babies without noticing must be affecting the
              > spiritual realms...

              Steiner says that many illegitimate births are incarnations of souls who are
              too lazy or impatient to arrange their lives: they see the spark of sex and
              rush in.

              "Illegitimate" sounds peculiar in contemporary society, but Steiner's view
              is not as neutral as society's today. Did Steiner ever comment on abortion
              under those circumstances? Souls who have rushed to birth before their time
              must also effect the spiritual realm.

              John Massengale
            • Demetrue@aol.com
              Would there be a difference between illegitimate souls and unplanned pregnancies ? I have found that some of the most wonderful souls I have ever met were all
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 26 9:01 PM
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                Would there be a difference between illegitimate souls and "unplanned
                pregnancies"? I have found that some of the most wonderful souls I have ever
                met were all surprise pregnancies.. could they have come into those
                relationships to bring some kind of gift to their parents? birth control, as
                well as medical abortions, are fairly new inventions in society (as are
                marriages for "love" instead of being arranged by the parents), can we
                honestly say that we are better off as a culture now that we can choose whom
                to marry and when to conceive.... Surely we have more "Rights" and
                "Freedoms" now, but I see people exercising "license" instead of liberty and
                abandonning responsibility in favor of rights (which seems to be a thinly
                veiled disguise for selfishness).... If we don;t have some kind of strong
                moral fiber and spiritual consciousness, then the freedom of the 21st century
                will enslave us...
              • Demetrue@aol.com
                Actually I think Steiner would have set up a free Waldorf schools for children of unwed mothers.. in this way these souls would have a chance to change their
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 26 9:55 PM
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                  Actually I think Steiner would have set up a free Waldorf schools for
                  children of unwed mothers.. in this way these souls would have a chance to
                  change their karma in mid-stream and benefit society as well...
                • Demetrue@aol.com
                  I was just reading Steiner s lecture on the work of angels in the Astral realm: But if you study the description of these bodies given in the book, An Outline
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 26 11:15 PM
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                    I was just reading Steiner's lecture on the work of angels in the Astral
                    realm:

                    "But if you study the description of these bodies given in the book, An
                    Outline of Occult Science, you will realise by what a complicated process
                    this fourfold constitution of man came into being. It is not evident from the
                    facts presented in that book that Spirits belonging to all the Hierarchies
                    participated in the formation of the three sheaths of man's being? Is it not
                    evident that our threefold sheath composed of physical body, etheric body,
                    astral body, is extremely complicated? It is not simply that these sheaths
                    owe their origin to the co-operation of the Hierarchies; the Hierarchies are
                    still constantly working within them."

                    "They [The Luciferic beings] are deeply interested in so seizing hold of man
                    that he does not unfold free will, because they themselves have not acquired
                    free will. Free will can be acquired only on the Earth but the Luciferic
                    beings want to have nothing to do with the Earth; they want only Saturn-,
                    Sun-, Moon-evolution, and to remain at those stages. In a sense they hate the
                    free will of man."

                    "The basis of all free religious feeling that will unfold in humanity in the
                    future will be the acknowledgment, not merely in theory but in actual
                    practice, that every human being is made in the likeness of the Godhead. "

                    I would guess that the conception of a child, planned or unplanned by the
                    parents, would be more complex that just the lazy soul seizing an opportune
                    moment.. it seems that there are many spiritual beings at work, and that it
                    might be Luciferic to rob that soul of the chance to incarnate and work
                    towards higher evolution and free will... and if we are all made in the
                    likeness of the Godhead, then any murder would be tatamount to "murdering"
                    God.... I think a big problem is that we do not yet recognize the divine
                    within ourselves or within all human beings around us... IF we are truly
                    supposed to work and evolve together, as Steiner implies, then one would
                    allow these illegitimate souls to incarnate because we will not move forward
                    unless we help them move forward as well....
                  • Danny F.
                    ... I personnaly think that many of those rushing in souls are in fact earth-bound souls, and that the Better beggar on earth than king in the realm of
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 27 1:28 PM
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                      --- John Massengale <john@...> wrote:
                      > From: "John Massengale" <john@...>
                      >
                      > > Surely killing millions of babies without noticing must be
                      > affecting the
                      > > spiritual realms...
                      >
                      > Steiner says that many illegitimate births are incarnations of souls
                      > who are
                      > too lazy or impatient to arrange their lives: they see the spark of
                      > sex and
                      > rush in.
                      >
                      > "Illegitimate" sounds peculiar in contemporary society, but Steiner's
                      > view
                      > is not as neutral as society's today. Did Steiner ever comment on
                      > abortion
                      > under those circumstances? Souls who have rushed to birth before
                      > their time
                      > must also effect the spiritual realm.
                      >
                      > John Massengale

                      I personnaly think that many of those 'rushing in' souls are in fact
                      earth-bound souls, and that the "Better beggar on earth than king in
                      the realm of shades." might in some way still apply to them...

                      Those souls most likely have some kind of veiling or shielding
                      Ahrimanic effect in regard to the incarnated souls and the Second
                      Coming; Christ in the etheric.

                      The dead are constantly there around us Steiner stated...

                      Everybody is free to do whatever they want, but I don't think abortion
                      creates a very good karma for the woman or the couple involved, or
                      even to humanity as a whole; this is total arrogance towards the Gods
                      to want to change the rules of the process of conception. Let me apply
                      this excerpt of the Gospel of Thomas to it:

                      "You do not realize who I am from what I say to you, but you have
                      become like the Jews, for they (either) love the tree and hate its
                      fruit (or) love the fruit and hate the tree."

                      Let us then say the tree is the act of making love and the fruit the
                      child to be. The second part seem actually apply to the "new"
                      phenomenom of homosexual people who wants to have kids no?
                      (...keeping the sacred process of conception in mind).


                      Not neutral either,
                      Danny

                      =====
                      'There's a fine line between participation and mockery'.
                      --Scott Adams

                      'My advice to you is to get married. If you find a good wife, you'll be happy; if not, you'll become a philosopher'.

                      'True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing'.
                      --Socrates
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                    • John Massengale
                      Does anyone on this list have an opinion about Sai Baba? One of the many Sai Baba sites on the web makes a strong connection to Theosophy. Unfortunately, I am
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 27 2:10 PM
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                        Does anyone on this list have an opinion about Sai Baba?

                        One of the many Sai Baba sites on the web makes a strong connection to
                        Theosophy. Unfortunately, I am unable to find that one again, or I would
                        give the link.

                        Sai Baba's own site is http://www.sathyasai.org/.

                        John Massengale
                      • Sarah Cherry
                        ... To my knowledge, on the issue of abortion, Steiner comments on the karma of the abortionist. I don t have the reference, but he said that were grave
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 28 4:04 AM
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                          >From: "John Massengale" <john@...>
                          >
                          >
                          >Steiner says that many illegitimate births are incarnations of souls who are
                          >too lazy or impatient to arrange their lives: they see the spark of sex and
                          >rush in.
                          >
                          >"Illegitimate" sounds peculiar in contemporary society, but Steiner's view
                          >is not as neutral as society's today. Did Steiner ever comment on abortion
                          >under those circumstances? Souls who have rushed to birth before their time
                          >must also effect the spiritual realm.

                          To my knowledge, on the issue of abortion, Steiner comments on the
                          karma of the abortionist. I don't have the reference, but he said
                          that were grave karmic consequences for interfering in the process of
                          incarnation in such a way. The abortionist accrues karma with not
                          only the incarnating soul, but the mother.

                          I had never heard the quote that (some) illegitimate births are lazy
                          or impatient individualities. It makes a lot of sense to me. On the
                          other hand, I can sense that an some illegitimate births might be
                          quite carefully planned or even a deep sacrifice--much the same way
                          an aborted or miscarried pregnancy could be a sacrifice by the
                          incarnating individual. By the same logic, I could argue that
                          "illegitimate" births are only "attempted" by the *strongest* souls.
                          These powerful individuals rush right in knowing the full
                          consequences of incarnating to folks who just wanted to have sex, but
                          are ill-equipped to be parents. :-)

                          Steiner also says that there are some souls who go from death to
                          rebirth without realizing anything. They learn nothing. If this is
                          the case, then how could they be expected to "plan" their
                          incarnation? I know women who have had abortions with the deep,
                          spiritual "knowing" that it is not the right time for a certain child
                          to be born to them. All-in-all, the issue is infinitely complex.

                          Wishing you strength and peace,

                          Sarah
                        • elaine upton
                          Thank you Demetrue (what is your name?), John and all of this thread. Demetrue, i agree that this matter of incarnating souls is complex, the word
                          Message 12 of 23 , Feb 28 7:28 AM
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                            Thank you Demetrue (what is your name?), John and all of this thread.

                            Demetrue, i agree that this matter of incarnating souls is complex, the word
                            "illegitimate" is problematic, and i think what you say here bears
                            repeating:





                            >I would guess that the conception of a child, planned or unplanned by the
                            >parents, would be more complex that just the lazy soul seizing an opportune
                            >moment.. it seems that there are many spiritual beings at work, and that it
                            >might be Luciferic to rob that soul of the chance to incarnate and work
                            >towards higher evolution and free will...

                            You continue:


                            >and if we are all made in the
                            >likeness of the Godhead, then any murder would be tatamount to "murdering"
                            >God.... I think a big problem is that we do not yet recognize the divine
                            >within ourselves or within all human beings around us... IF we are truly
                            >supposed to work and evolve together, as Steiner implies, then one would
                            >allow these illegitimate souls to incarnate because we will not move
                            >forward
                            >unless we help them move forward as well....

                            Amin-Amen-Aho!To recognize the divine, as you say, is key, the divine within
                            us, within all beings.--But again, i would not call certain incarnating
                            souls "illegitimate", for each soul is legitimate, if it is seen as of God,
                            and each has a part of the Divine Plan to fulfill.

                            Blessings of peace,
                            elaine

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                          • John Massengale
                            ... I agree this is a complex question, to which I don t know the answer: my question was not rhetorical. After reading the responses, I have another question:
                            Message 13 of 23 , Feb 28 8:50 AM
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                              > >and if we are all made in the
                              >>likeness of the Godhead, then any murder would be tatamount to "murdering"
                              >>God.... I think a big problem is that we do not yet recognize the divine
                              >>within ourselves or within all human beings around us... IF we are truly
                              >>supposed to work and evolve together, as Steiner implies, then one would
                              >>allow these illegitimate souls to incarnate because we will not move
                              >>forward
                              >>unless we help them move forward as well....
                              >
                              > Amin-Amen-Aho!To recognize the divine, as you say, is key, the divine within
                              > us, within all beings.--But again, i would not call certain incarnating
                              > souls "illegitimate", for each soul is legitimate, if it is seen as of God,
                              > and each has a part of the Divine Plan to fulfill.

                              I agree this is a complex question, to which I don't know the answer: my
                              question was not rhetorical.

                              After reading the responses, I have another question: How much of this is
                              compassion and how much spiritual science?

                              We all have free will, and we can make the wrong decision. One can then go
                              into the philosophical quandary of saying there are no wrong decisions. But
                              there are better and worse decisions. Some lead to other planets, others
                              lead to Atlantis's end. It does not seem to me that the end of Atlantis was
                              the ideal divine plan. True or false?

                              Steiner's statements about _unplanned_ births suggest that there was some
                              legitimacy to the traditional view about "illegitimate" births, which is
                              certainly not the contemporary pc version of the truth. Nor, perhaps, the
                              version to which compassion would lead us. Nor does that mean that all
                              births to unmarried parents are unplanned. Conversely, many unplanned births
                              probably were to married couples.

                              John Massengale
                            • Demetrue@aol.com
                              Aha! John, your question about legitimacy led me off the topic of why there is so much violence among American youth today.... Now Steiner passed away 50 years
                              Message 14 of 23 , Feb 28 11:05 AM
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                                Aha! John, your question about legitimacy led me off the topic of why there
                                is so much violence among American youth today.... Now Steiner passed away 50
                                years before abortion was legalized in America (not that abortions were not
                                performed before the 1970s in America, but the numbers performed before that
                                time were very low compared to the 2 million a year that are now performed in
                                this country).. Now here is what I was thinking.... Steiner was lecturing in
                                Germany right before a terrible evil impulse of death was about to grip
                                Europe.... I believe what was going on in European culture may have been
                                very different from what was transpiring in the United States... My
                                grandmother, born in 1908, had told me that growing up in her time, there was
                                such a sense of duty and work ethic that women usually did not "have time" to
                                indulge in extramarital affairs, or seriously entertain the idea of divorce..
                                it was understood that if you married (and you probably would have to for
                                financial reasons), you would grin and bear the situation and you would
                                probably have at least 4 children, and birth control meant that you and your
                                husband slipped into a comfortable friendship where sex was not a regular
                                occurrence ... also, the amount of manual labor involved in everyday survival
                                (my grandmother grew up on the farm, like many Americans before
                                industrialization became a way of life) consumed much of the sex drive and
                                creative energies..... In middle class America at the time of Steiner, there
                                was such a social stigma against becoming pregnant out of wedlock that the
                                fear of social ostracism alone probably kept many young women from engaging
                                in premarital sex.... This is what I am most interested in: At the time of
                                Steiner, abortion and illegitimate births were at a very low level.... also
                                industrialization and technology had not yet taken over most of our daily
                                jobs.. also, youth violence and disrespect was rather low (HOWEVER, a whole
                                generation of American teenagers (18-19) were about to go off to Europe in
                                the idealistic cause of freeing the world from the death grip of Nazism and
                                ironically die violent deaths for a noble cause).. Now let's see how the
                                situation has reversed in our country: in the 1960s we have the sexual
                                revolution where many societal taboos are broken, premarital sex becomes the
                                norm, divorce rates rise to 1 out of every 2 marriages, abortion becomes
                                legal and abortion rates rise to 2 million performed a year, or 50 million in
                                the last 25+ years.... contraception become the norm ... the birth rate drops
                                to 2.1 per family, yet the rate of illegitimate births and teen unwed
                                pregnancy skyrockets.... we live in a time of unheralded peace (no great wars
                                or noble causes to fight) and prosperity (supermarkets and appliances supply
                                our every need, so that we have become useless button punchers).. here we are
                                with our human bodies, but most of our tasks require minimal physical
                                exertion.. the body feels almost superfluous now that machines give us this
                                day our daily bread.. come to think of it, the spiritual connection also
                                seems superfluous to the man that now sits before the altar of his big screen
                                TV and who has lost any connection to the earth or the divine ... no wonder
                                our youth feel alienated.. they are even alienated from their own bodies.. no
                                wonder they no longer know why they are here or for what purpose they were
                                created.... since we no longer have to exercise our wills or our spirits to
                                survive on the earth, our youth may come to believe that everything was put
                                here to serve them (rather than that they have come here to be of service)..
                                as our wills and spirits become weakened from disuse, we start to live for
                                hedonistic pleasure, substituting addictive physical pleasure for a genuine,
                                connected relationship to the Divine... I think as we have lost our
                                purposefulness as a society, youthful vitality and vigor is channeled into
                                the short-circuited, convoluted service of violence and death, instead of
                                being drawn upward into the service of life, the Divine, and humanity... We
                                need to give our young people real, meaningful, purposeful WORK.....But we
                                also need to be working along side of them....
                              • Danny F.
                                ... This is that the good normal thinking, and behaving people of North-America are neuroticaly going from one extreme to the other: The wood separateness of
                                Message 15 of 23 , Feb 28 1:43 PM
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                                  --- Demetrue@... wrote:
                                  > From: Demetrue@...

                                  > as our wills and spirits become weakened from disuse, we start to
                                  > live for
                                  > hedonistic pleasure, substituting addictive physical pleasure for a
                                  > genuine,
                                  > connected relationship to the Divine...

                                  This is that the good "normal" thinking, and behaving people of
                                  North-America are neuroticaly going from one extreme to the other:

                                  The wood separateness of Ahriman, or the sensual fusion of Lucifer.
                                  Where is content?, where is spirit?, where is dialogue? etc.

                                  We live in a culture that either of necessity, work, that's ok,
                                  or of "candies" and sensations(hedonism). This is that we've come to
                                  senselessly work for work(people doesn't know anything else to do as
                                  a human), or/and seek for pleasures. So why do the North-American
                                  work else then fulfilling his real needs of food, shelter and the
                                  like? He work work in order to do something, because the North-
                                  American feels he has to do something, and since this something(work)
                                  has become for him the everything, the North-American will be pleased

                                  to not have time for anything else and at the same time find his own
                                  value in such of an activity as working for working. The other pole
                                  arise out of the previous since the society is all-economy basically
                                  unfortunatly and humans also, so do the candies arise in form of
                                  different goods and social behaviors, for the western people value
                                  material goods a lot, and so the social behaviors that produce waves
                                  of stimulation in their astral body; shortly the ideas don't have much
                                  of a reality and that much value for the North American GENERALLY, for

                                  here we work and "eat" candies...

                                  I work, so I'm a respectable person of course(smile), and I'm also
                                  a "social" person in my candy seeking behaviour, an idea that doesn't
                                  taste anything and this is more of a dreamy nature, so I prefer to be
                                  a "respectable" worker, and of course, a candy eater; so would speak
                                  the North American really GENERALLY.

                                  There's even that pejorative expression '� la mode' in the school
                                  system here in Qu�bec 'CLOUD SHOVELLER' for the students going to
                                  study art, music, history, psychology and all those disciplines that
                                  are not tremendously economical, technologic or the like...

                                  Signs of our time: sophistication, simplistic, dryness,
                                  emotional outpourings, separateness, emptyness,
                                  etc.

                                  If you want my opinion the North American type is constantly repeating
                                  the Event of the Fall, trying to hide in the fashion of Adam and Eve
                                  in the Garden of Eden, and finally be bound to the earth and have to
                                  labor.


                                  God, it's good to know the Lord and Anthroposophy no?

                                  Danny


                                  =====
                                  'There's a fine line between participation and mockery'.
                                  --Scott Adams

                                  'My advice to you is to get married. If you find a good wife, you'll be happy; if not, you'll become a philosopher'.

                                  'True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing'.
                                  --Socrates
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                                • John Massengale
                                  ... What is this? I suspect that the image it is conjuring up for me is different than the one you intend. John Massengale
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Feb 28 2:36 PM
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                                    > The wood separateness of Ahriman

                                    What is this? I suspect that the image it is conjuring up for me is
                                    different than the one you intend.

                                    John Massengale
                                  • Danny F.
                                    ... I was referring to the sense of separation between individuals; the wooden etheric body, which is the body of love when it is not wooden... I tried to coin
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Feb 28 2:50 PM
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                                      --- John Massengale <john@...> wrote:
                                      > From: "John Massengale" <john@...>
                                      >
                                      > > The wood separateness of Ahriman
                                      >
                                      > What is this? I suspect that the image it is conjuring up for me is
                                      > different than the one you intend.
                                      >
                                      > John Massengale

                                      I was referring to the sense of separation between individuals;
                                      the wooden etheric body, which is the body of love when it is not
                                      wooden...

                                      I tried to coin a phrase, the above you quoted.

                                      Basically all the enlighten analysts, may they be psychoanalysts or
                                      psychologists and the like will tell you there's a tremendous problem
                                      in the west with the sense of touch and all that turns around it, this

                                      is merely the peak of the iceberg...

                                      Danny

                                      =====
                                      'There's a fine line between participation and mockery'.
                                      --Scott Adams

                                      'My advice to you is to get married. If you find a good wife, you'll be happy; if not, you'll become a philosopher'.

                                      'True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing'.
                                      --Socrates
                                      __________________________________________________
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                                    • Demetrue@aol.com
                                      Danny, I was thinking that we still must have that same Christic task of balancing the two thrusts of Lucifer and Ahriman.. Also, when America was more of an
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Feb 28 3:00 PM
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                                        Danny, I was thinking that we still must have that same Christic task of
                                        balancing the two thrusts of Lucifer and Ahriman.. Also, when America was
                                        more of an agrarian society, the hard work was deeply connected to the earth
                                        and life,and I would guess was MOST satisfying.... If the farmer did NOT
                                        awake at the crack of dawn to milk the cows, there would be no milk for
                                        breakfast (I know this would be a non-issue to vegans, etc. but please bear
                                        with me).. if he did not plow the fields after the first thaw and rain, he
                                        would miss his window of opportunity to plant the grain.. IF he did not plant
                                        the grain by a certain date and lunar cycle, there would be no bread come
                                        winter time... THe earth and the seasonal weather patterns dictated all his
                                        physical labor and if he did not work hard, he and his family would literally
                                        starve to death.. if an animal was killed, every part of the animal was
                                        used.. to make gelatin, leather, glue, needles, soap, candles, even to make
                                        strings for stringed instruments... the internal organs were used to make
                                        vessels for carrying water or beverages (don;t mean to be gross here!), the
                                        intestines were used to stuff sausage, feathers were used for pillows and
                                        comforters.. there was a necessary cycle and rhythm of life, dictated by the
                                        earth, that modern society hass lost for the most part... today, our work is
                                        so far removed from the final product that of course we find it
                                        unsatisfying... now we merely work for symbols, like paper money and we use
                                        these symbols to buy clothing and food that we have absolutely NO connection
                                        to! WE did not grow the food, it comes to us in artifical packaging... we
                                        did not gather the wool or flax or cotton or silk to make our clothings, we
                                        did not spin the thread or weave the yarn.... No wonder we work and work and
                                        are never satisfied with the fruits of our labors.. I used to be that the
                                        labor itself gave us joy and satisfaction and the end product was well
                                        deserved.... Now our work (in white collar, corporate America) seems empty
                                        and meaningless, and the fruits are hollow and can never satisfy our
                                        appetites, so we falsely assume that if we just work harder and get MORE
                                        empty fruits, then we will be satisfied..... Of course, that work and those
                                        fruits will never satisfy our spiritual hunger to be fully human and
                                        connected...
                                      • Demetrue@aol.com
                                        Danny, I have also noticed we have a problem with our sense of smell as well! At some point in childhood, it is like we close our noses :o), and by
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Feb 28 3:04 PM
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                                          Danny, I have also noticed we have a problem with our sense of smell as well!
                                          At some point in childhood, it is like we close our noses :o), and by
                                          adolescenthood we are bathing away every human smell and masking it with
                                          artificial perfumes, so that we smell more like plastic Barbie dolls than
                                          real human beings! Has anyone else noticed that they don;t fully indulge
                                          their sense of smell?
                                        • John Massengale
                                          ... My image was related but different: of all of us living in isolation in our little cabins in the woods. All of the high school shootings have taken place
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Feb 28 3:11 PM
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                                            > I was referring to the sense of separation between individuals;
                                            > the wooden etheric body, which is the body of love when it is not
                                            > wooden...

                                            My image was related but different: of all of us living in isolation in our
                                            little cabins in the woods. All of the high school shootings have taken
                                            place in exurbia, where adolescents have no social life without access to a
                                            car.

                                            Since most of them are too young to drive or can't afford a car, that is an
                                            obvious social problem. Even when they do have a car, the local piazza is
                                            usually a parking lot at a strip mall.

                                            John Massengale
                                          • Demetrue@aol.com
                                            I don t know John.... I think they were living in the suburbs and had next door neighbors and social lives... I think part of the problem was they did not fit
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Feb 28 4:02 PM
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                                              I don't know John.... I think they were living in the suburbs and had next
                                              door neighbors and social lives... I think part of the problem was they did
                                              not fit in well with any of the popular groups, such as jocks, cheerleaders,
                                              but they were able to find like-minded loners in pain on the Internet... (If
                                              every state just had 2 or 3 melancholy violent minded children and each one
                                              got on-line, you could easily have a group of 150 children coming together
                                              and giving credence to their wrong-minded solutions of violence as a means to
                                              solve their social problems.) Also, these children (in Colorado) did have
                                              friends, and they were in one of the boy;s basements building bombs... I
                                              think the greatest gap in social connections was between the parents and
                                              those children ... though, I honestly think the parents had already given up
                                              and really did not know what to do with their boys' behavior problems ... the
                                              one boy had applied to enlist in the military (I am sure the parents had
                                              hoped to channel his violent tendencies in a socially acceptable, monitored,
                                              disciplined way), but he had just been rejected because he was being treated
                                              for depression and apparently was on antidepressants. And then all hell
                                              really did break loose... Who knows when or why the depression started.. who
                                              knows if the medication was altering the child's consciousness.... It seems
                                              he had already given himself over to the forces of darkness (looking for the
                                              power and acceptance he felt was denied him by mainstream society) and became
                                              enslaved by the very same power he had hoped to wield over others... just
                                              another casualty of evil...
                                            • Danny F.
                                              ... Since you re an architect John, do you think that the ancient Greek model kind of thing where there was public places really, or even Europe I think in
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Feb 28 7:24 PM
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                                                --- John Massengale <john@...> wrote:
                                                > From: "John Massengale" <john@...>
                                                >
                                                > > I was referring to the sense of separation between individuals;
                                                > > the wooden etheric body, which is the body of love when it is not
                                                > > wooden...
                                                >
                                                > My image was related but different: of all of us living in isolation
                                                > in our
                                                > little cabins in the woods. All of the high school shootings have
                                                > taken
                                                > place in exurbia, where adolescents have no social life without
                                                > access to a
                                                > car.
                                                >
                                                > Since most of them are too young to drive or can't afford a car, that
                                                > is an
                                                > obvious social problem. Even when they do have a car, the local
                                                > piazza is
                                                > usually a parking lot at a strip mall.
                                                >
                                                > John Massengale


                                                Since you're an architect John, do you think that the ancient Greek
                                                model kind of thing where there was public places really, or even
                                                Europe I think in general is better than North America for that, could
                                                offer a core(a heart) an alternative to North American cities where
                                                the only likeness to a core is their major economical and business
                                                like streets? I think there's actually a tendency to construct big
                                                movie theater complex in the subburbs, but it seem to be far from
                                                what is needed in terms of human interactions no. Are we too socially
                                                sick to have cities promoting an architecture else then cement and
                                                tar?
                                                but have real nice places with gardens for example, that's not very
                                                expensive flowers!!! I guess one of the argument would be that flowers

                                                are not something useful. There's really only a sick brain logic to
                                                say that Beauty is not useful, only a sick brain logic to push aside
                                                the Good, the Beautiful, an the True; this is unfortunatly also the
                                                economical logic of modern consciousnes...

                                                Danny

                                                =====
                                                'There's a fine line between participation and mockery'.
                                                --Scott Adams

                                                'My advice to you is to get married. If you find a good wife, you'll be happy; if not, you'll become a philosopher'.

                                                'True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing'.
                                                --Socrates
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                                              • Danny F.
                                                ... This is the tendency to asepticize and hide. Where all the flower s gone?.... Once I thought to the idea of having relaxing essential oils being diffused
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Feb 29 2:18 PM
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                                                  --- Demetrue@... wrote:
                                                  > From: Demetrue@...
                                                  >
                                                  > Danny, I have also noticed we have a problem with our sense of smell
                                                  > as well!
                                                  > At some point in childhood, it is like we close our noses :o), and
                                                  > by
                                                  > adolescenthood we are bathing away every human smell and masking it
                                                  > with
                                                  > artificial perfumes, so that we smell more like plastic Barbie dolls
                                                  > than
                                                  > real human beings! Has anyone else noticed that they don;t fully
                                                  > indulge
                                                  > their sense of smell?

                                                  This is the tendency to asepticize and hide.

                                                  Where all the flower's gone?....

                                                  Once I thought to the idea of having relaxing essential oils being
                                                  diffused in the subways and nice classical music, this would help
                                                  people relaxing before and after work, and maybe be more
                                                  open to the others and speak to each others...

                                                  There is someplace I think in Europe where they do have classical
                                                  music in public transportations.

                                                  Man has to become more of an earthlean and indulge in the flowers and
                                                  the earth, more than it's living-room, TV, and car. This would give
                                                  humans something in common: the earth.

                                                  Danny


                                                  =====
                                                  'There's a fine line between participation and mockery'.
                                                  --Scott Adams

                                                  'My advice to you is to get married. If you find a good wife, you'll be happy; if not, you'll become a philosopher'.

                                                  'True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing'.
                                                  --Socrates
                                                  __________________________________________________
                                                  Do You Yahoo!?
                                                  Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
                                                  http://im.yahoo.com
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